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Elric VIII
2011-02-07, 02:22 PM
What are the mechanics of forcing someone off their mounts?

I was in the following situation and we had no clue about the actual rules of this:
I was riding my flying mount (good maneuverability) and I was Bullrushed by a creature under the effect of a Fly spell. We were 10ft above the ground as this happened.

- How does one resolve this?
- Do modifiers that help to stay mounted apply here (such as military saddle)?
- How is the fall resolved, do I fall prone?

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 03:42 PM
You can trip them off of the mount, I believe. As you can trip certain flying creatures out of the sky.

I don't think you can be targeted for a bull-rush independent of your mount. But if you can be, then, yeah, you fall.

And if it can dismount you, then, yes, modifiers to resist being dismounted or ejected from the saddle would generally apply.

You only fall prone if that's how you naturally land after a fall. I don't recall the rules saying anything about it in particular.

And if you're going to allow bullrushing someone off of a mount, um... I guess you play it like a bull-rush check against the rider. Maybe getting some benefit from the mount assisting.

Elric VIII
2011-02-07, 05:08 PM
That all makes sense. Thanks.

Does the Soft Fall use of the Ride skill come into play at all?

Also, does anyone know if there are any precedents for having my mount assist me or not being able to be bullrushed independantly?

Person_Man
2011-02-07, 05:13 PM
When you're mounted you are not mystically fused to your mount. If an effect moves a target, such as a Bull Rush or Pushback, it only moves the target. Period. Thus you can move the rider and not the mount, or the mount and not the rider.

Elric VIII
2011-02-07, 05:21 PM
When you're mounted you are not mystically fused to your mount. If an effect moves a target, such as a Bull Rush or Pushback, it only moves the target. Period. Thus you can move the rider and not the mount, or the mount and not the rider.

I figured there might be some circumstance bonuses since it is not as easy to move a person strapped to something else as it is to just move the person. I also thought there might be a possibility of the mount moving with me because it's being pulled along.

Psyborg
2011-02-07, 06:44 PM
The Cavalry Charger feat (Complete Warrior pg108), a tactical feat, has "Unhorse" as one of its options. Basically, if you charge and hit a mounted opponent, you get to make a free Bull Rush. If you succeed, the target moves back but their mount doesn't.

Particularly recommended for use against non-flying riders of flying mounts. Better hope for a handy flumph! :smalltongue:

Zeofar
2011-02-07, 06:51 PM
I figured there might be some circumstance bonuses since it is not as easy to move a person strapped to something else as it is to just move the person. I also thought there might be a possibility of the mount moving with me because it's being pulled along.

You probably aren't strapped to the mount well enough to actually pull it along unless it is not a typical saddle. How do you think people get thrown from horses? Anyhow, Bull-rusher would be trying to move (or encourage the movement of) a far, far larger mass than the rider quite indirectly. Doesn't seem like a recipe for success. On the other hand, unless you move the mount extremely fast or the person riding is extremely unstable (perhaps because you caused them to be by changing the orientation of the mount to one that isn't conducive to staying on), then they'd probably be moved with it. A normal bull rusher of similar size or smaller than the mount without massive strength enhancements? Nah, he's still on there unless he's trying to get off. Much larger or using awesome blow? That'd probably fly.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 06:54 PM
In the future though, you may want to consider having some manner of being attached to the saddle/mount, possibly via a harness on one's body that is attached securely to the saddle or a harness the mount is wearing in addition to the saddle.

...Or having a special pair of pants sovereign glued to the saddle and cleaned using prestidigitation...

Elric VIII
2011-02-07, 06:58 PM
...Or having a special pair of pants sovereign glued to the saddle and cleaned using prestidigitation...

Ok, now I have a strategy.

Now, I have to ask if there are any feats/skill uses that help me stay in the saddle. There is a check that lets you maneuver your horse in such a way as to gain bonus AC from cover, is there a version that lets try to dodge a bull rush, etc?

Person_Man
2011-02-08, 12:12 PM
Ok, now I have a strategy.

Now, I have to ask if there are any feats/skill uses that help me stay in the saddle. There is a check that lets you maneuver your horse in such a way as to gain bonus AC from cover, is there a version that lets try to dodge a bull rush, etc?

Shedu Crown soulmeld makes you immune to Bull Rush. You can access it with the Shape Soulmeld feat.

Combat Focus + Combat Vitality + Combat Stability (PHBII) grants you +4 Will Save, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, etc checks.

Anything that adds to your Strength check helps. So 1 level of Marshal, 3 levels of Factotum, etc.

Also, anything that increases your size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777).

The only problem with each of these is that enemies can still target your Mount, who does not share your resistances/abilities unless they're derived from spells and you have the Share Spells ability. But keep in mind that if your enemy is targeting your mount and not you, that's a good thing.

Elric VIII
2011-02-08, 12:27 PM
Shedu Crown soulmeld makes you immune to Bull Rush. You can access it with the Shape Soulmeld feat.

Combat Focus + Combat Vitality + Combat Stability (PHBII) grants you +4 Will Save, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, etc checks.

Anything that adds to your Strength check helps. So 1 level of Marshal, 3 levels of Factotum, etc.

Also, anything that increases your size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777).

The only problem with each of these is that enemies can still target your Mount, who does not share your resistances/abilities unless they're derived from spells and you have the Share Spells ability. But keep in mind that if your enemy is targeting your mount and not you, that's a good thing.

Thank you.

I agree with bull rushing me off my mount, but I would like to assume that moving my mount also moves me, otherwise that would just be silly.

Greenish
2011-02-08, 12:37 PM
You probably aren't strapped to the mount well enough to actually pull it along unless it is not a typical saddle.Ashworm Dragoon Hoo!

Person_Man
2011-02-08, 01:44 PM
Thank you.

I agree with bull rushing me off my mount, but I would like to assume that moving my mount also moves me, otherwise that would just be silly.

Just remembered: Share Soulmelds feat (which btw, creates the most powerful supermounts in the game) allows an Animal Companion or Familiar to share the effects of your soulmelds when it's within 5 ft of you. So it takes 2 feats: Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) and Share Soulmelds.

Although the real fun is if you go Sorcerer 1/Totemist 19 or Incarnate 19 or something similar, and get an Improved or Dragon Familiar with Girillion Arms, Heart of Fire, etc.

Coidzor
2011-02-08, 04:34 PM
Just remembered: Share Soulmelds feat (which btw, creates the most powerful supermounts in the game) allows an Animal Companion or Familiar to share the effects of your soulmelds when it's within 5 ft of you. So it takes 2 feats: Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) and Share Soulmelds.

Although the real fun is if you go Sorcerer 1/Totemist 19 or Incarnate 19 or something similar, and get an Improved or Dragon Familiar with Girillion Arms, Heart of Fire, etc.

If there was a PRC that advanced familiar or animal companion in MoI....:smalleek:

Elric VIII
2011-02-08, 05:15 PM
Just remembered: Share Soulmelds feat (which btw, creates the most powerful supermounts in the game) allows an Animal Companion or Familiar to share the effects of your soulmelds when it's within 5 ft of you. So it takes 2 feats: Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) and Share Soulmelds.

Although the real fun is if you go Sorcerer 1/Totemist 19 or Incarnate 19 or something similar, and get an Improved or Dragon Familiar with Girillion Arms, Heart of Fire, etc.

That seems like an awesome build. I may try that some day.

My mount is actually an Incarnate, for Airstep Sandals, Crystal Helm and other goodies. Does Share Soulmeldwork in the other direction (can my mount take it and confer it to me)?

Person_Man
2011-02-08, 06:16 PM
If there was a PRC that advanced familiar or animal companion in MoI....:smalleek:

There's no need.

A Familiar share's your BAB and has 1/2 your Hit Points. By default it gets Alertness, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, and Empathic Link. Progressing it only improves it's natural armor, Intelligence, and a few peripheral abilities (Deliver Touch spell, Speak with Master) that aren't needed for a meldshaper, who can buff it with soulmelds. You can improve your Familiar with the Improved Familiar or Draconic Familiar feat. Or you can just play a Tiny race and ride your Small Familiar around. (I know you're dying to play a Tibbet that rides a house cat that breaths Stone to Flesh).



That seems like an awesome build. I may try that some day.

My mount is actually an Incarnate, for Airstep Sandals, Crystal Helm and other goodies. Does Share Soulmeldwork in the other direction (can my mount take it and confer it to me)?

How is your mount an Incarnate?

Also, the benefits do not go both ways unless you can find a way to have yourself named as your mount's Familiar or Animal Companion.

Coidzor
2011-02-08, 06:32 PM
There's no need.

A Familiar share's your BAB and has 1/2 your Hit Points. By default it gets Alertness, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, and Empathic Link. Progressing it only improves it's natural armor, Intelligence, and a few peripheral abilities (Deliver Touch spell, Speak with Master) that aren't needed for a meldshaper, who can buff it with soulmelds. You can improve your Familiar with the Improved Familiar or Draconic Familiar feat. Or you can just play a Tiny race and ride your Small Familiar around. (I know you're dying to play a Tibbet that rides a house cat that breaths Stone to Flesh).

Oh yeah. Just throw on some soulcaster (because improved and dragon familiars still need base caster levels) and most of the nifty ones can be accessed...


Also, the benefits do not go both ways unless you can find a way to have yourself named as your mount's Familiar or Animal Companion.

Hmm... A Muckdweller Wizard X/Incarnate Y riding a Muckdweller Wizard X/Incarnate Y could work, I think. Not very physically impressive though, since they're tiny-sized naturally (and would require either half-ogre/minotaur or permanent enlarge person to really be a mount)

Edit: Then again, polymorphing/alter selfing seems like it would alleviate that bit... And with share soulmelds on each one, the essentia limit can be partially gotten around? Maybe? :smallconfused:

Elric VIII
2011-02-08, 06:39 PM
How is your mount an Incarnate?


Using the "Special Mount as a Cohort" version of Leadership on DMG 200.

ericgrau
2011-02-08, 07:29 PM
Coidzor got it right. The rules say you trip people to dismount them. Not bull rush or any of that other ad hoc guessing. Also makes sense when you look at the various tripping weapons hooking a foe off his horse.

Getting dismounted also deals 1d6 of damage unless the rider passes a DC 15 ride check.

Elric VIII
2011-02-08, 08:20 PM
Alright, thank you for the help and advice. Tripping does, in fact, make more sense than bull rush, since grabbing/lashing someone is a more likely tactic than trying to tackle them off the horse.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-08, 09:23 PM
Alright, thank you for the help and advice. Tripping does, in fact, make more sense than bull rush, since grabbing/lashing someone is a more likely tactic than trying to tackle them off the horse.
While perhaps more likely, don't rule out the other option. There are often multiple ways to accomplish the same goal. Don't keep a player with Improved Bull Rush from using what they know to advantage.

Elric VIII
2011-02-08, 10:32 PM
While perhaps more likely, don't rule out the other option. There are often multiple ways to accomplish the same goal. Don't keep a player with Improved Bull Rush from using what they know to advantage.

Actually I started this topic since my DM seems to want to make my class feature useless without outright saying I can't use it. I've talked to him and he says it's fine but keeps trying to get rid of my mount. I've gone roughly 5 encounters in a row without taking any damage at one point, since it was all directed at my mount.

Coidzor
2011-02-08, 10:48 PM
Actually I started this topic since my DM seems to want to make my class feature useless without outright saying I can't use it. I've talked to him and he says it's fine but keeps trying to get rid of my mount. I've gone roughly 5 encounters in a row without taking any damage at one point, since it was all directed at my mount.

What kind of mount is it anyway?

If it's weaker than you, then killing it so you're unable to make it into melee and take fall damage makes sense...

But that level of ignoring you to focus on the mount... yeah... x.x

Elric VIII
2011-02-08, 11:09 PM
What kind of mount is it anyway?

If it's weaker than you, then killing it so you're unable to make it into melee and take fall damage makes sense...

But that level of ignoring you to focus on the mount... yeah... x.x

It's a Bone Knight's Skeletal Steed. It was discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185485). You suggested using Riding Boots/Battle Bridle and I've been able to keep my mount safer since, but I can only make a ride check to add AC while I'm on it.

Although I did just raise a Purple Worm Zombie, maybe I can ride that. Equipment for it only costs x16 normal cost. :smallannoyed:

Elric VIII
2011-02-09, 02:40 PM
Just because I don't want to start another topic on my mount I'm going to bump this.

What are the mechanics for changing a mount that isn't from the Special Mount class feature, but from a similar feature? Is the possible?