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View Full Version : Top Ten Most Broken Things in 3.5 -- No, really ;)



Stegyre
2011-02-07, 02:47 PM
This (http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Bokonon_Lives's_Top_Ten_Most_Broken_Features_of_Du ngeons_%26_Dragons_Version_3.5) was too good to have it up for comment only at Myth-weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=121995).

Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts as to just how brokenly good such classes as the Soulknife and Knight are. Win D&D with Tasha's Hideous Laughter! Minmax with Unearthed Arcana!

If we aren't playing D&D the way this guy does, we are clearly doing it wrong. :smallwink:

arguskos
2011-02-07, 02:51 PM
The smartassery inherent in that article is awe-inspiring. :smalleek:

That, good people, is comedic writing done well, something very difficult to do. Good on him.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-07, 02:52 PM
:smalleek:

...this is a joke, right? Right?

Obviously.
:smalltongue:

Zanatos777
2011-02-07, 02:55 PM
...I am stunned? I can't tell if he's serious or not. Did I just epic fail my sarcasm check?

Edit: If yes then hilarious. If no...ummm has he played D&D?

navar100
2011-02-07, 02:55 PM
I got the impression the author is serious. Presuming he is, he has no concept of the kind of power one can really get in 3E nor accepting of the idea that a player character is entitled to be "powerful".

senrath
2011-02-07, 02:59 PM
I'm pretty sure this is a joke, guys. That said, it's a good one.

Zanatos777
2011-02-07, 03:02 PM
Failed detect sarcasm is then. I need to put more point in that then.

Asheram
2011-02-07, 03:05 PM
I especially enjoy how they deleted the page to leave comments on.
It probably crashed the servers once people found out.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-07, 03:12 PM
... Monkey Grip as number 3? No. Just no. All 10 of the answers should have been as follows: 10-8: Psionics. 7-5: Arcane Spellcasting. 4-2: Divine Spellcasting. 1: Natural Spell.

EDIT: I just read the article again. Here are some choice bits (direct quotes, mind you) that I thought were either a) completely idiotic, or b) downright offensive:

1) [in reference to Unearthed Arcana] There is nothing useful in it. [... :smalleek:]

2) The Knight is the most ridiculous tank you will ever see in D&D this side of the Dwarven Defender. [Really? This, from the guy who complains that "D&D is too much like WoW".]

3) The new generation of gamers wants fireballs, mind control and overpowered characters because this has become the focus of modern RPG's. [Right, because blasting/mind control-type magic wasn't around in 2e]

4) That's why Loyal Beyond Death - and the Knight class in general - is the single most broken feature of D&D 3.5. [... :smallannoyed:]

5) The Soulknife's versatility transcends all reason. [... :smallconfused:]

6) [The entire #10 entry. Basically, his point is that Shielded Spell is overpowered, but he didn't rank it any higher on his "List of Overpowered Stuff" because it's actually balanced. He even says "An arcane spellcaster will still need Still Spell to get any use out of it". Ridiculous.]

7) Shielded Casting is a general feat that should've been a metamagic feat. [Explain to me how using a shield while casting in ANY WAY SOUNDS LIKE A METAMAGIC FEAT.]

8) [In reference to the Dragon Disciple's lack of spell-level requirement as a prerequisite] As far as the arcane requirements, you only need to be able to cast spells spontaneously; there is no level requirement. If this isn't a red flag to you, let me spell it out for you. A Level 4 Fighter / Level 1 Sorcerer qualifies for this class. [No, Bokonon. No. You need 8 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. What Fighter qualifies for this? Also, a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1 is infinitely worse than a Sorc 5, who actually WOULD qualify.]

9) But Monkey Grip remains a thorn in the side of DM's looking for balanced melee combat; it allows a character to wield a weapon one size category larger than he ordinarily could. In a world where the longsword deals 1d8 damage, do we really need a character who can swing a large-sized greatsword that deals 3d6? [... Seriously? What about fireballs that deal 1d6/level? Or the spell GREASE. Or Sleep. Or Web. Monkey Grip doesn't "unbalance" melee combat; Spell casters do. :smallyuk:]

10) [In reference, yet again, to Unearthed Arcana] Not a single feature in its pages is useful or necessary unless you want to make your character completely and irrevocably better than anything in the core handbooks. [That's the point! Melee needs help! How do you not see that?! :smallfrown:]

Rin_Hunter
2011-02-07, 03:18 PM
I was making this face the entire time while reading it: :smallconfused:

yugi24862
2011-02-07, 03:22 PM
Heh. Looking at the edit history, it was posted 2008 March 25, got edited into wizards/clerics/druids in a week, got edited back, was left alone until July 11 2010 when someone put in that 'the guy who wrote this is a ******* idiot', then it was locked and the comments page deleted.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 03:25 PM
I got the impression the author is serious. Presuming he is, he has no concept of the kind of power one can really get in 3E nor accepting of the idea that a player character is entitled to be "powerful".

I somehow agree with this. I thought it was sarcasm at first, but some, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, do work as claimed on the tin. And yes, being incapacitated for 1 rnd/lvl is essentially a lose, which is pretty solid for a 2nd level spell. For laughter, it is pretty crazy, and it is solid for the level.

I feel like the author alternated between blatant sarcasm and seriousness, and it kind of detracts from the thing.

SuperFish
2011-02-07, 03:26 PM
Tasha's Hideous Laughter doesn't even work that way. = /

I get that it's a joke article, but you have to at least use true points.

Eldariel
2011-02-07, 03:32 PM
It's a rather apparent satire. A poor one but rather apparent, regardless. I did find it somewhat amusing though so it wasn't wasted time. Notice how he picked things specifically known to be "poor" and listed them as "overpowered"; it's clearly deliberate.

His closing paragraph is actually quite hilarious, calling the worst balanced D&D edition the best balanced. And the whole idea that an efficient character wouldn't need player ingenuity to accomplish whatever the party is trying to do in the campaign. Heh.

Tael
2011-02-07, 03:34 PM
I somehow agree with this. I thought it was sarcasm at first, but some, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, do work as claimed on the tin. And yes, being incapacitated for 1 rnd/lvl is essentially a lose, which is pretty solid for a 2nd level spell. For laughter, it is pretty crazy, and it is solid for the level.

I feel like the author alternated between blatant sarcasm and seriousness, and it kind of detracts from the thing.

Except that Tasha's hideous Laughter us good, but it's nowhere near the top ten of anything in D&D, even in core. Hold Person is the same, but better, because you actually can slit their throat, and their AC will be abysmal. Yeah, I know, save every round, but you only need 1 round, maybe 2.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-07, 03:42 PM
While this one seems to definitely be a joke, the logics presented are not uncommon among people who either do not fully grasp the way the game works. I remember someone at one point claiming that the Favored Soul was far more powerful than the cleric, and that it should be banned while the latter stays a party staple.

FMArthur
2011-02-07, 03:42 PM
Yeah, the Tasha's Hideous Laughter thing may have been a red herring - the only thing in the whole article that could seriously be taken at face value. Maybe to make the reader think the post is serious... shifting its genre from 'satire' to 'trolling'.

Still, I was hoping to see a real list, or to contribute to a thread about compiling one. I am sort of interested to see what the absolute worst things in D&D are. All I know is that Polymorph Any Object needs to be on any such list.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 03:44 PM
Hold Person is a level higher, has much tighter targetting restrictions, and allows a new save every round to escape. Hideous Laughter is much superior.

I won't give it credit for being the most broken spell in the game or anything, but for it's level, it's easy to see why someone might include it in a list.

Keld Denar
2011-02-07, 03:49 PM
All I know is that Polymorph Any Object needs to be on any such list.

Really, any open ended spell/ability should be on that list. Things like that get stronger with the more choices you have. Alter Self is great with just the MMI. Add in MM2-5, Sandstorm, OA, and a couple other books, and you've got yourself a ball. Add in an outsider/dragon/aberration/undead base race and all those sources and you can come up with some rediculous crap. And thats a 2nd level spell. Polymorph and Shapechange are just varying degrees of rediculousness.

Contrast with Fireball. If you have access to just the PHB, Fireball does 1d6 damage per CL, and sometimes sets stuff on fire. If you have access to every book ever printed, Fireball still only does 1d6/CL fire damage, and sometimes sets crap on fire. Now, does that mean Fireball is a weak spell and Alter Self is a good spell, or does that mean Fireball is a good spell and Alter Self is an overpowered spell?

Stegyre
2011-02-07, 04:14 PM
Still, I was hoping to see a real list, or to contribute to a thread about compiling one.
Don't look at me like that: I warned you in the thread title that false advertising was in play. :smalltongue:

As for a real list, it's going to depend upon a few assumptions, like
(a) granularity: "spell casting," or "polymorph school" or "alter self"; and
(b) Rules-as-Played or RAI or debated/twisted-RAW or indisputable-RAW.

And as for the author's intentions, I cannot say. Looking at past edits made (by others) on the blog, it is clear that the substantive deficiencies were pointed out well in advance. Long before the "f*ing idiot, the first edit made changed it to the following:
10. Wizards
9. Wizards
8. Clerics
7. Druids
6. Clerics
5. Clerics
4. Clerics
3. Druids
2. Druids
1. Druids

Aemoh87
2011-02-07, 04:59 PM
My Top Ten (off the top of my head):

1. Natural Spell
2. Planar Shepard
3. Divine Metamagic
4. Wild Shape Tricks
5. Artificer Cohorts
6. Druids
7. Wizards
8. Erudite Spell to Power Variant
9. Mind Rape/Love's Pain Combo
10. WarHulkingHurler

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-07, 05:05 PM
My Top Ten (off the top of my head):

1. Natural Spell
2. Planar Shepard
3. Divine Metamagic
4. Wild Shape Tricks
5. Artificer Cohorts
6. Druids
7. Wizards
8. Erudite Spell to Power Variant
9. Mind Rape/Love's Pain Combo
10. WarHulkingHurler

No Incantrix?

Nero24200
2011-02-07, 05:06 PM
I honestly can't tell but...surely he's joking?

I mean...the soulknife is broken because it's psionic? Even if you beleived that 3.5 psionics were broken the soulknife doesn't actually gain any psionic powers.

Is he being sarcastic? I really can't tell (and no, myquestion is not sarcastic either).

Teln
2011-02-07, 05:12 PM
No Incantrix?

No Cleric?

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-07, 05:15 PM
No Cleric?

No Diplomancer?

... Pun Pun

Aemoh87
2011-02-07, 05:17 PM
It was off the top of my head :)

I wanted to see if I could remember all the fun things.
Also Cleric is covered by DMM on my list. Per my experience without divine metamagic it slowly falls to the bottom of Tier one... the dumpster that the rest of the DND world wishes it could dive.

Incantrix should prolly go on the list but I have never played with one or DM'd for one so I don't really know.

Also no Pun Pun because that would imply that you can play as a Pun Pun.

Toliudar
2011-02-07, 05:25 PM
Okay, so let's make this a real conversation - admittedly, the millionth on such a topic. What are ten things that you would (or do) cull from your games in order to keep the game reasonably balanced and fun. Not talking about metagame concepts like "players who behave like a**holes," but actual mechanical elements:

A semi-serious list to get us started:

1. Prepared casting
2. Divine Metamagic
3. Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle as anything other than spells
4. Natural Spell
5. Candles of Invocation
6. The Celerity family of spells
7. Contingent Spell
8. Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechange
9. Genesis and related shenanigans
10. RAW Diplomacy

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-07, 05:28 PM
Thought bottle is also quite nasty... Dunno if it's worse than those listed, but it's definitely a contestant.

Grim Reader
2011-02-07, 05:30 PM
There was a guy on the Wizards forum who in all seriousness wrote a long article on why the Favored Soul was "A god in human form", far, far more powerful than the Celric and should be banned at all tables.

Ah, yes, here we go:

Favored Soul -pure swiss (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573410/The_Favored_Soul_--_Pure_Swiss)

The guy is perfectly serious.

Draz74
2011-02-07, 05:32 PM
Yeah, that's a pretty good list. Mine is very similar, just broadens some of your categories (which lets me combine some of them together).


Metamagic reducers
Contingent effects
RAW Diplomacy
Open-ended Polymorph effects (including Wild Shape)
Casters with unlimited spells known
Action economy breaking
[Calling] effects
Custom items (including traps)
Artificers
Shock Trooper

Thorcrest
2011-02-07, 05:39 PM
The author is either a really good satirist or has a very poor grasp of DnD mechanics... reminds me of that thread where the guy thought Fighter/Monk was overpowered... I think that was the same guy as the infusion of cloud and himself one...

Anyways, my list of 10 would just pretty much be 10 different open ended spells, but failing that similar to the ones posted.

Tael
2011-02-07, 05:41 PM
I do believe Eldariel wrote a fabulous post with more stuff than I can remember... Ah, here it is:


Hm, well, off the top of my head, it's a matter of whether you want things that are too cheap or simply too powerful to exist. And it's hard to categorize items with classes. Obvious Tier 0 classes would be something like:
Illithid Savant
Tainted Scholar
Dweomerkeeper
Planar Shepherd

Those just break the game so bad it can't really exist. Well, Tainted Scholar a bit less than the other two, but we're still talking about having infinite casting stat and such. Illithid Savant is basically Pun-Pun Jr. and Dweomerkeeper has the wonderful ability of turning every spell component-free, uncounterable and all that. Which among other things means free Wishes & Gods under your control which people often equate to winning D&D. Planar Shepherd is a weird case since its Time Stop is only about 3 times more powerful than the real thing and a Su-ability, but its Super Shapechange giving it more or less every spell in the game as an SLA is actually really close to Dweomerkeeper so it kinda belongs here.

Next up we'd probably have the "merely insanely busted" stuff:
Beholder Mage
Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/etc.
Cancer Mage
Hulking Hurler

They aren't nearly as "broken" as the earlier classes in that they merely screw everything up instead of basically causing Divide by 0-error. Beholder Mage casts like 10 spells a turn, Incantatrix persists every spell in existence and then some (and some more stuff, of course), but yeah... Cancer Mage just has infinite stats 'cause of few stupid diseases that exist. Hulking Hurler is the least impressive of the lot but it can still destroy a planet or two in a standard action so it should kinda count.


Note that much of this is hard to list; Incantatrix, Beholder Mage, Dweomerkeeper & Tainted Scholar are only truly busted because spellcasting exists. They're the best abusers of the spellcasting but if this game contained no spells, they just wouldn't be that crazy. It's particularly the existence of like Ice Assassin, Simulacrum, Wish, Miracle, Gate and the like that truly breaks Dweomerkeeper/Planar Shepherd; insanely powerful spells with troublesome components.

Incantatrix is mostly broken because of the existence of metamagic (what with it being a metamagic-focused PrC) and Tainted Scholar is...well, a poorly thought-out mechanic giving 'em infinite casting stats and free metamagic and such. I could also be naming Spelldancer, Halruaan Elder, Hathran and crap like that here but they're broken really for the same reason Incantatrix is. Forgotten Realms... :smallfurious:

But yeah, spellcasting breaks some of the classes, specific spells break few of them, specific diseases break Cancer Mage and generic mechanics of carrying capacity converted into damage breaks Hulking Hurler (lolmultipliedbysize&every10Str).


Also, while none of that stuff is Core, the reasons they are broken are mostly Core. Though it's hard to imagine a world where being able to turn into basically every creature and gaining their SLAs wouldn't be busted, still, the core that breaks that stuff is from Core. Monster Manual in particular breaks more stuff than anything which is, coincidentally, why most of the brokenness is stuff that calls things and compels them to service giving you cheap access to spells (see how many different things combine to break them? You have the class/spell itself; then the creature that channels you something; then the channeled thing itself - the way costs are mitigated due to this channeling and the ease of access and the power of channeled thing when unfettered by costs tends to totally break things; or the power of the channeled thing, period.), or allows you to turn into stuff gaining their abilities.

There are also other enablers on similar level (which do you call "broken", Divine Metamagic or the easy means of getting lots of turn attempts á la Nightsticks, Reliquary Holy Symbol, etc.?) and the broken items (á la Candle of Invocation & co.) and spells (Gate, Shapechange, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, bla bla bla - these have already been named enough times) making pinpointing the core of the issue hard. Of course you could also name Diplomacy & co. but who cares at this point?

Obviously though, if things were to be designed in a non-broken manner:
- Spell costs must either be somehow paid for regardless of what uses the spells, or spells must be fair even without the cost. (Lots and lots of stuff falls under this; Planar Shepherd, Shapechange, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Gate, etc.)
- It mustn't be easy to gain abilities of creatures. Yet, as long as it's possible, the costs of spells must be such that they aren't broken when used through proxies since otherwise that limits what abilities monsters can be given, which simply isn't good for the game. (Gate, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, etc. I'm looking at you!)
- Obviating costs in general shouldn't be easy (Whole Friggin' Forgotten Realms, WHYYYYY?).
- Making a class that gains power through X limitlessly and creating immunity to X isn't a good idea, mmmkay? (Cancer Mage, Tainted Scholar, I'm looking at you).
- Gaining power from a score that increases exponentially is probably bad (Hulking Hurler says hi). As a corollary, exponentially increasing anything is probably bad.
- If you have Round/level spells with insane power, making it easy to make them last 24 hours probably isn't a good idea.

I don't believe he mentioned Thought Bottles...

Keld Denar
2011-02-07, 06:25 PM
I think that was the same guy as the infusion of cloud and himself one...
This one? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63740)

Remember kids. Friends don't let friends necromancy old posts...

Aemoh87
2011-02-07, 06:29 PM
Oh man I would kick that kid out of my group too, just because he was willing to take it.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-07, 06:34 PM
Great Modthulhu: Erhem.



•Protesting Bannings/Glorifying or Discussing Banned Posters: We value our posters, and take care only to ban posters who commit egregious or repeated violations of our Rules. Once that action is taken, though, it is an Inappropriate topic to discuss, glorify, or memorialize banned posters or their rules violations. We have found in the past that such displays are disruptive to the community. If you have a concern regarding a banned poster, we ask that you send a PM to Roland St. Jude, the Forum Guru.


Just sayin'.

Eldariel
2011-02-07, 06:55 PM
I do believe Eldariel wrote a fabulous post with more stuff than I can remember... Ah, here it is:


I don't believe he mentioned Thought Bottles...

I don't think I went into items in general there; Thought Bottle covered in the "co." in "the broken items (á la Candle of Invocation & co.)"

Wings of Peace
2011-02-07, 07:36 PM
Though not as immediately broken out of the box as other things like Tainted Scholar, Planar Shepard, etc., my vote for the most abusable thing (in terms of prestige classes at least) goes out to Dragon Magazine's Mind Mage (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm).

Swordguy
2011-02-07, 07:46 PM
While this one seems to definitely be a joke, the logics presented are not uncommon among people who either do not fully grasp the way the game works. I remember someone at one point claiming that the Favored Soul was far more powerful than the cleric, and that it should be banned while the latter stays a party staple.

I'd be willing to bet that the guy who actually wrote this played in a group that played D&D 3.x in the way WOTC actually meant it to be played - not as the "Spellcasting Rocket Tag" that it had become.

Thusly, in a group where the Fighter IS a great tank because all the monsters attack him, while not moving much so he can make his full attacks, the wizard blasts, and the cleric pumps healing into the Fighter, the things listed in the article ARE broken. It's just that he's playing a different game - also called D&D - than the rest of you people are.

Urpriest
2011-02-07, 07:53 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the guy who actually wrote this played in a group that played D&D 3.x in the way WOTC actually meant it to be played - not as the "Spellcasting Rocket Tag" that it had become.

Thusly, in a group where the Fighter IS a great tank because all the monsters attack him, while not moving much so he can make his full attacks, the wizard blasts, and the cleric pumps healing into the Fighter, the things listed in the article ARE broken. It's just that he's playing a different game - also called D&D - than the rest of you people are.

Even then, though, the Soulknife is straightforwardly worse than the fighter, and the Dragon Shaman has nothing to do in combat most of the time. His objections aren't about how the classes play, they're theory, just like discussions on this forum. They're just poorly thought out theory.

Triskavanski
2011-02-07, 08:01 PM
For our group UA isn't broken.

Often it is actually the opposite of the normal definition of broken. My sword sage for example only had 9 hp at level 2 due to flaws and traits I took. Granted I'm the kind of guy who isn't going to take FLAW: Bad spell caster, for a character who has no spell casting.

(just something random I made up.)

At our table I'm probably the most powergamey player there and most of the time my power-gaming creates nearly useless characters compared to the cream of the crop builds.

Even now, with my character using the least most powerful totem meld, I'm doing way over the parties damage and am in the process of creating a new character to replace the totemist because its just too much damage and our DM is typically very good at scaling combat, which results in less powergamed characters being left in dust.

I mean, I'm using monkey grip to wield a large sized fullblade with one character, yet this guy has tons of weaknesses. My new necromancer is going to suck against anything unaffected by his spells. (undead & constructs particularly) Even though he is crazy against things that are effected.

Paseo H
2011-02-07, 08:12 PM
There is no such thing as anything being broken in an rpg.

That would imply that Wizards of the Coast is incompetent.

Are we all paying for incompetence then?

Dead_Jester
2011-02-07, 09:26 PM
There is no such thing as anything being broken in an rpg.

That would imply that Wizards of the Coast is incompetent.

Are we all paying for incompetence then?

Of course we are, just so the stuff we homebrew can look so much better by comparison if it even remotely approaches something that some may call balanced.:smallwink:

Of course, that isn't to say everything made by Wizards of the Coast is unbalanced.

On the subject, I can't believe no one brought up Pun-Pun, Pazuzu or Efreets (or even divine minion template, was it ever used for anything but optimization?).

The Rabbler
2011-02-07, 09:51 PM
Of course we are, just so the stuff we homebrew can look so much better by comparison if it even remotely approaches something that some may call balanced.:smallwink:

Of course, that isn't to say everything made by Wizards of the Coast is unbalanced.

On the subject, I can't believe no one brought up Pun-Pun, Pazuzu or Efreets (or even divine minion template, was it ever used for anything but optimization?).

pun-pun is an effect of completely borked abilities. Pazuzu is fluff (technically RAW) which would still require DM permission. Efreeti are pretty balanced if you don't control them.

What really breaks the game and makes pun-pun possible (at least at level 1) is the combo. Sure, candle of invocation and metamorphic touch (not sure if I'm remembering the name right) are completely overpowered, but one is pretty restrictive on its own and the other is simply an overpowered spell once. It's the full combo which is game-breaking.

I think this thread is trying to deal with the single spells/PrCs/items/feats which break games on their own.

Dead_Jester
2011-02-07, 09:58 PM
What really breaks the game and makes pun-pun possible (at least at level 1) is the combo.

Sure, but the original build really didn't need a combo, it was the sole existence of the Sarrukh that made it possible.

On topic though, Assume Supernatural ability is pretty borked, especially if a liberal (read, stupid) reading of spellcasting makes it a supernatural ability ...

Tael
2011-02-07, 10:39 PM
This one? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63740)

Remember kids. Friends don't let friends necromancy old posts...

Huh? I clearly remember a thread just like that one, except I'm pretty sure I posted in it, and there was discussion of making an LA+0 outsider or something... Am I just losing my mind or what?!?

Knaight
2011-02-07, 10:48 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the guy who actually wrote this played in a group that played D&D 3.x in the way WOTC actually meant it to be played - not as the "Spellcasting Rocket Tag" that it had become.

This would be more believable if it weren't for a few other oddities. Use of the term RPG instead of computer RPG for computer RPGs is somewhat uncommon among tabletop roleplayers, and everything about psionics lines up too well with the common misconceptions, and is thrown in the limelight. The article isn't serious, though it is much closer than other "satirical" constructions. Consider the Lightning Warrior.

The Big Dice
2011-02-07, 10:54 PM
It's just that he's playing a different game - also called D&D - than the rest of you people are.
There's this, but then there's also the single most broken thing about 3.5 D&D:

People. Specifically, people coming at an RPG from a CCG background and mindset. Which in itself isn't a bad thing, but it has led to D&D getting treated in a way that was impossible before the internet made sharing TO ideas not just possible but really quick and easy possible.

Then comes the idea of net decking character ideas. Which again, isn't always a bad idea. It's just that to me it seems a bit mechanical. I'd feel like I was playing a deck rather than a character if I took a build from a forum and put it on a sheet to take to a realspace game.

So that's what I think is the most broken thing in 3.5. But the article was amusing. Even me, the Anti-Munchkin, could see that the guy who wrote it hadn't really seen any completely optimised stuff.

Ranger Mattos
2011-02-07, 11:05 PM
...please tell me that was a joke. Because I have to physically restrain myself from laughing, which would likely cause me pain because my face is like this: :smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallsigh: :smallconfused:

Tvtyrant
2011-02-07, 11:53 PM
The ten most broken things about D&D:
1. Truenamer
2. Monk
3. Soulknife
4. Mystic Thuerge
5. Green Star Adept
6. commoner-killing-cats
7. Bargests
8. Level Adjustment and Equivalent Character Level rules.
9. Monster Manual II
10.Samurai

Triskavanski
2011-02-07, 11:58 PM
Wait.. Are you saying broken as they suck or broken as they just kill everything?

Cause I was pretty sure the Truenamer was one of those sucky types. Heck almost everything on that list of yours sucks..

Serenity
2011-02-08, 12:50 AM
They are broken in the sense that none of them work the way they're supposed to. The Truenamer gets less powerful with every level up, for example, while the CRs of creatures in the MM2 are ludicrously miscalculated--with the most egregious example being the Adamantine Horror, with its ability to cast Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction, at will, at a mere CR 9.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-08, 01:10 AM
Heh, I love that thing. Yeah, it was a list of things that do not work as advertised (except the commoner-killing-cat, it is just too funny not to put in). Green Star Adept kills your casting and in return gives you some really crappy bonuses that you could get in a less horrifying way by casting Iron Body, etc.

big teej
2011-02-08, 01:36 AM
but.....

but.....

THE KNIGHT IS MY FAVORITE CLASS!!! :smalleek:

I love playing a knight!!!

LOVE IT!!!!

-sob-

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 02:34 AM
The ten most broken things about D&D:

You forgot Shining Blade of Heironious! Its a casting class that makes you patently WORSE at both fighting and casting at the same time.

At least Green Star Adept is decent for the first 9 levels. Shining Blade is NEVER good. "Has a weapon" shouldn't ever be a class feature...

Also, Schrödinger's Dragon Disciple 10. While its in the box, you don't know if it is or isn't a dragon, because its both and neither. Once you take it out of the box, however, you find out that its a saggy sad excuse for a gish wannabe with poor execution.

Yahzi
2011-02-08, 03:55 AM
1. Commune (no mysteries).
2. Scry (no secrets).
3. Teleport (no hassles)
4. Polymorph (no limits).
5. Gate (no challenges).
6. Wands (goodbye, limited resources!).
7. Scrolls (goodbye limited spells).
8. WBL (the entire freaking concept, including "you must have X magic items to play at this level")
9. The XP table (13 encounters per level * 4 encounters per day = newb to godbeing in 3 months)
10. NPC classes (that are purposefully weaker than PC classes, as if the world were designed to roll over and let the PCs win).

JaronK
2011-02-08, 04:32 AM
I'm going to try to go with stuff so broken it will just destroy any campaign it's used in.

1) Arcane Genesis's ability to play with time traits
2) Any wish/wealth loop, most notably Candle of Invocation/Planar Binding Efreetis
3) Base 2 Contact Other Plane questions
4) Tainted Sorcerer when combined with binding Naberius and anything with a decent spell list
5) Spell like True Creation/Simulacrum (Runesmith being the easiest way)
6) Manipulate Form
7) Level 20 Truenamers (Gate spam solves everything!)
8) Epic Spellcasting
9) Optimized Vow of Peace diplomacy characters
10) Hireling minion casters (45gp for a level 20 Wizard for a day? Really?)

JaronK

Tvtyrant
2011-02-08, 04:39 AM
You forgot Shining Blade of Heironious! Its a casting class that makes you patently WORSE at both fighting and casting at the same time.

At least Green Star Adept is decent for the first 9 levels. Shining Blade is NEVER good. "Has a weapon" shouldn't ever be a class feature...

Also, Schrödinger's Dragon Disciple 10. While its in the box, you don't know if it is or isn't a dragon, because its both and neither. Once you take it out of the box, however, you find out that its a saggy sad excuse for a gish wannabe with poor execution.

That is definitely true, though I happen to like Dragon Disciple... Its weak as a kitten but its still better then an equal leveled monk. Also you can use it to add extra spells to classes that have a short progression like Assassin or Vigilante.

I'm only offended by Green Star Adept because it essentially casts a permanent Iron Body spell on you but with even worse downsides.

I would have to look more closely but I think you could throw a couple levels of DD after Suel Arcanamach to get extra spells. And extra str never hurts :P

Eldariel
2011-02-08, 04:45 AM
That is definitely true, though I happen to like Dragon Disciple... Its weak as a kitten but its still better then an equal leveled monk. Also you can use it to add extra spells to classes that have a short progression like Assassin or Vigilante.

It's definitely better than most Core melee options, and being one of the few ways to add Str with class levels actually gives it some niché uses. It's not the worst ever, it's just not what it wants to be (nor is it anything compared to casting).

Tvtyrant
2011-02-08, 04:47 AM
It's definitely better than most Core melee options, and being one of the few ways to add Str with class levels actually gives it some niché uses. It's not the worst ever, it's just not what it wants to be (nor is it anything compared to casting).

Well, since you get the same thing in 3 levels as a template it seems silly... The only plus is you get to toss some extra spells on there?

Eldariel
2011-02-08, 05:48 AM
Well, since you get the same thing in 3 levels as a template it seems silly... The only plus is you get to toss some extra spells on there?

You don't want to take it all the way; that makes you not eligible for Enlarge Person which is one of the best long duration buffs available in Core (indeed, unless you have access to Polymorph, you kinda want it on you at all times and thus you really want the Humanoid-type - it just so happens those extra slots you get ensure you'll be able to cast it aplenty). 4 levels of Dragon Disciple gets you +4 Strength at the cost of 2 BAB (one from the entry class and one from Disciple), which isn't a terrible deal with the random mishmash you get. 8 levels gets more NA and Con (and Int and Cha) and Blindsense, and 9 gets Ex wings, at increasing BAB costs.

Also, you don't lose HD for Dragon Disciple like you lose for the Template; losing HD tends to **** you over something severe as even with all the bonuses, you tend to be behind on HP, saves and are totally dead to **** like Blasphemy and company and much more limited in Polymorph-options if the spell is game.

Yora
2011-02-08, 06:09 AM
Let's make a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186582) to find out what the combined knowledge and experience of this board considers the top 10 most broken things in D&D.

Otodetu
2011-02-08, 05:05 PM
I can't say dragon disciple is worth it, no way really.

I usually look at characters that can handle a challenge as dictated by their level to be balanced, and those that struggle with a challenge of their level to be somewhat underpowered.

Most of the time taking levels in dragon disciple will leave you underpowered, at least I have not found any great uses for the prestige class.

If it only had full or even 3\4 casting progression.



Back to broken things

Wraith-strike and Emerald razor: spam-able abilities that makes all your attacks touch attacks.
I have started to feel that it makes the pimped out armour-class of custom made npc's and customized monsters rather redundant. Should I do something about it? games focus around melee type players that role-play more than roll dice, but total smash any melee type opposition when it comes to blows.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-08, 06:40 PM
Start giving your melee'rs miss chance abilities? AC is mostly irrelevant at high levels anyways, when touch-attacks tend to matter most - you either hit on 2's or 20's, so blur/concealment/etc. are the only reliable defense.