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Elfstone
2011-02-07, 03:05 PM
I have a dragon mount in a game with lv 12 sorcerer casting. I have not selected his spells yet. I dont want him to take over the game with super optimized spells and I dont want any of the spells selected to be biased. So I have come to you all. If one of you could give me an unbiased spell list for a normal dragon (really, what ever you want, more toward the buff side than combat as I dont want him to take over anything) Only requirement is that he has the invisibility sphere spell.

Thanks a million guys, in advance.

Keld Denar
2011-02-07, 03:19 PM
The biggest spell ANY dragon should have is Scintilating Scales (SpC). It converts your NA bonus to a Deflection bonus. This is AMAZING, as Deflection bonuses go toward your touch AC, a dragon's biggest weakness.

Once you have that little ditty buttoned up, you can go for a lot of other stuff. I wouldn't go too crazy on save vs kill spells. As a dragon, your mount is a bit behind on spellcasting, meaning that the likelyhood of it landing such a spell is not going to be very high. Spells with no save and no SR are pretty awesome, like Solid Fog or any of it's higher level equals.

I'd say:
1st:
Ray of Clumsiness (SpC)
Shield
Mage Armor
Blood Wind (SpC)

2nd:
Heart of Air (CMage)
Scintilating Scales (SpC)
See Invis
Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon)

3rd:
Invis Sphere
Heart of Water (CMage)
Haste

4th:
Heart of Earth (CMage)
Greater Mirror Image (CMage)
Solid Fog

5th:
Teleport
Greater Blinking (SpC)

6th:
Elemental Body? (SpC)

Greenish
2011-02-07, 03:31 PM
What do you mean by "unbiased"? That the list is not biased towards spells a dragon would be likely to take? That it's not biased towards spells from a certain source?

If you want it to be biased towards buff spells, it can hardly be unbiased. :smallconfused:

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 03:34 PM
You could add Haste to the 3rd level spells.
EDIT: Fly also, unless you already have achieved Good Manuverability somehow. (like with the improved manuverability feat and a greater pectoral of manuverability, maybe... yeah, that should do it.)

Also, what kind of dragon is it? It may have access to Domain and Cleric spells depending on its type.

subject42
2011-02-07, 03:44 PM
Keld's list is good, but I might suggest "Ruin Delver's Fortune" and "Wings of Flurry" as well.

FMArthur
2011-02-07, 03:49 PM
I think maybe what he meant by unbiased was unoptimized - ie something 'typical' as built by a WotC employee. Like selecting spells for being iconic rather than powerful, and not from more than a couple sources.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 04:03 PM
I think maybe what he meant by unbiased was unoptimized - ie something 'typical' as built by a WotC employee. Like selecting spells for being iconic rather than powerful, and not from more than a couple sources.

But, but, that's just being biased in a different direction!

Keld Denar
2011-02-07, 04:13 PM
An unbiased spell selection is biased against being biased!

nedz
2011-02-07, 04:23 PM
I'm going with some theamatic options:

Nauseating Breath [3rd SpC] Stinking cloud in a cone, not quite as good as the standard one in that it doesn't hang around.

Dragon Breath [4th SpC] may sound like an odd choice, but it would allow him to change his breath weapon for that of some other dragon.

Blinding Breath [4th SpC] may blind oppoents - which is a useful status effect, if his breath is of the right kind.

Wings of Air [SpC] and Wings of Air, Greater [SpC] Improves flying manouvreablity. (There a feat that does this also BTW)

Breath Weapon Substituion [5th SpC] swift action to change your breath weapon for some other energy.

Ethereal Breath [5th SpC] Breath extends onto the Ethereal plane.

Stunning Breath [5th SpC] Breath stuns targets

NichG
2011-02-07, 04:29 PM
What is the dragon's history? Has it been a military dragon, a loner, raised from an egg by the rider, etc? That will determine what would be an unbiased (read: unoptimized) set of spells that it would have taken.

I imagine a loner dragon would have a lot of spells that are more convenience and utility than battle based. It'd have Telekinesis so it can rearrange its loot piles, or Unseen Servant at least. It might have a few divinations to find interesting treasures to collect, a few protections against sneak-thieves, etc. It might have polymorph or alter form for when it wants to go out incognito.

A dragon raised from an egg by humanoids wouldn't have as many utility spells for object manipulation and the like, since their partner would tend to do that for them. In that case they might have more battle magics.

Drascin
2011-02-07, 04:36 PM
What do you mean by "unbiased"? That the list is not biased towards spells a dragon would be likely to take? That it's not biased towards spells from a certain source?

If you want it to be biased towards buff spells, it can hardly be unbiased. :smallconfused:

I'm going to guess he means that since we don't now his players, we'll come up with something generally useful that makes sense for a dragon to have, while he worries he might bias the list towards being particularly effective (or ineffective) against the particular characters in the campaign.

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 04:38 PM
I'm going to guess he means that since we don't Know his players, we'll come up with something generally useful that makes sense for a dragon to have, while he worries he might bias the list towards being particularly effective (or ineffective) against the particular characters in the campaign.

Right in one.



This is a dragon mount to a pally of Hierinous. So yes very military like. He does have good manuverability. (this is an epic game so he has quite a few hit die)

SurlySeraph
2011-02-07, 04:41 PM
I think maybe what he meant by unbiased was unoptimized - ie something 'typical' as built by a WotC employee.

1st: Alarm, Cause Fear, Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Burning Hands
2nd: Acid Arrow, Daze Monster, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Pyrotechnics
3rd: Fireball, Fly, Flame Arrow, Tiny Hut
4th: Fire Trap, Secure Shelter, Fire Shield
5th: Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Cone of Cold
6th: Tenser's Transformation

If he doesn't breathe fire, make sure to switch out all the fire-related spells to whatever type of energy his breath weapon does. Now if only there were a spell that granted Weapon Focus and did nothing else...

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 04:48 PM
Right in one.



This is a dragon mount to a pally of Hierinous. So yes very military like. He does have good manuverability. (this is an epic game so he has quite a few hit die)

Still, what kind of dragon is it? Gold? Silver? Bronze? Something Else?
That will affect what spells it potentally has access to, which would of course affect what we might recomend.

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 05:12 PM
Gold Dragon. And remember I want the dragon wants invisibility sphere.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 06:02 PM
Paladin of Heironeous, eh? Wyrm of War sovereign archetype from Dragons of Eberron + some ToB maneuevers would fit with that without having to worry about a full spell arsenal (trade out some of those sorcerer spells known for martial maneuvers and stances).

Since he's going to be a mount for a Pally, he's likely going to be mixing it up in Melee, so good gish spells are to be considered.

Mage Armor and Shield will buff his AC, and mage armor is basically an all day buff for a first level spell for him... I think wings of cover is another potential spell for him to consider... You'll want something better than blur for a miss chance though. Likely want See Invisibility or True Seeing as an option against such tactics.

Freedom of Movement from the Luck Domain/Cleric List is pretty good.

Things like scintillating scales are a given for dragons, of course.

edit: Some gish spells (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868042/Character_Build_Spotlight:_Gish&post_num=7#338265238) to consider. It's fairly basic as well... though.

And another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154966).

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 08:30 PM
Since it's a gold dragon, it gets access to cleric spells. I'd suggest Heal as your 6th level spell. Maybe add righteous Might as one of your 5th level spells

Umm...

0th (9 spells): Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Virtue, Disrupt Undead, Prestidigitation, Cure Minor Wounds, Ray of Frost, Purify Food and Drink

1st Level (5 spells): Shield, Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, Bloodwind (Spell Compendium,) Bengin Transposition (Spell Compendium)

2nd Level (5 spells): Alarm, Greater (Spell Compendium,) Close Wounds (Spell Compendium,) Scintilating Scales (Spell Compendium,) Status

3rd level (4 Spells): Invisibility Sphere, Haste, Resist Energy, Mass (as cleric spell, Spell Compendium,) Mage Armor, Greater (Spell Compendium)

4th level (3 spells): Overland Flight, Freedom of Movement, Recitation (Spell Compendium,) Shield of Faith, Mass

5th level (2 spells): Righteous Might, Revivify (Spell Compendium)

6th level (1 spell): Heal

There are my suggestions, I highly doubt they're particularly optimized. They should still be useful both to the dragon and the party.

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 08:38 PM
No sciliating scales?
I would add it but it might be biased... (argh why is this so hard)

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 08:44 PM
No sciliating scales?
I would add it but it might be biased... (argh why is this so hard)

Umm, if you're refering to the list I suggested, I definately included scintilating scales.

And the most likely reason you're finding it hard that I can think of is that you're trying too hard.

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 08:57 PM
Oops, thought it was a third level.

Thanks, Ill go with that list. Preciate it, now I can prove it was unbiased.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 09:01 PM
Hmm, come to think of it (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=hp4dap6s0m49t7pqga14phu4e4&topic=8609.20), there's some spells that will actually advance the dragon to the next age category. The temporary spell River's Ravage from Dragonlance Legend of the Twins is, well, Dragonlance, but less potential to be bad than the WOTC permanent routes to do so.

I believe an alternate application of bestow curse from BoVD or a similar source does that, with the ordinary intention of it being a debuff or way to kill someone, but on a True Dragon...:smallamused: Might be a Greater version of bestow curse though...

edit: But, yeah, unless this mount is supposed to be the real credible threat it seems like this might just be taking up a bit more of your time and energy than is really good.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 09:04 PM
Just noticed I accidentally listed Light twice in the cantrips (level 0 spells.) :smallredface: Fixed and replaced with Purify Food and Drink

Also, Good Luck!

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 09:24 PM
Hmm, come to think of it (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=hp4dap6s0m49t7pqga14phu4e4&topic=8609.20), there's some spells that will actually advance the dragon to the next age category. The temporary spell River's Ravage from Dragonlance Legend of the Twins is, well, Dragonlance, but less potential to be bad than the WOTC permanent routes to do so.

I believe an alternate application of bestow curse from BoVD or a similar source does that, with the ordinary intention of it being a debuff or way to kill someone, but on a True Dragon...:smallamused: Might be a Greater version of bestow curse though...

edit: But, yeah, unless this mount is supposed to be the real credible threat it seems like this might just be taking up a bit more of your time and energy than is really good.
Nonononoon NOT what I want. I want my lv 20 Pally/fav soul to be the main threat here. Hes just the mount, a good freind, a nice buffer, and okay in a pinch, but just a mount.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 09:45 PM
Umm... looking at the Monster Manual, I just noticed that there isn't a gold dragon age category with level 12 spellcasting. Old gets 11th level, Very Old gets 13th. How did you get 12th? :smallconfused:

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 09:56 PM
Because of a very twisted ruling about my pally levels advancing his hit die and then dividing it to get casting levels...... I think.

If not then I messed up and I actually just have 11th.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 10:26 PM
Because of a very twisted ruling about my pally levels advancing his hit die and then dividing it to get casting levels...... I think.

If not then I messed up and I actually just have 11th.

Ah... In that case, probably a good idea just to leave things as they are.

Tael
2011-02-07, 10:58 PM
4th level (3 spells): Overland Flight (low fly speed, but with good manuverability and lasts all day,)

Maybe I'm missing something, but you're giving Overland Flight... to a Dragon. Doesn't that seem a little redundant?

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 11:21 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but you're giving Overland Flight... to a Dragon. Doesn't that seem a little redundant?

No, because most dragons have crap for manuverability. Basically, use the dragon's regular flight when speed is needed, and Overland Flight when manuverability is needed. Useful enough to justify, given it's supposed to be a non-optimized spell list.

Elfstone
2011-02-07, 11:25 PM
I got it up to good though. Might be useful for friends though.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 11:36 PM
Oh, yeah, just remembered. If you want some sample dragons' spell lists to go off of, this is a bit old, but WOTC has an archive of some (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/wn) Wyrms of the North from FR. For possible future reference.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-07, 11:38 PM
I got it up to good though. Might be useful for friends though.

Oh, I hadn't realized that.
No, it won't be. Overland Flight is a personal-only spell. I'd replace it with Freedom of Movement.

EDIT: I modified my suggested spell list accordingly.