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Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 07:27 PM
I'm currently in a campaign where my character has made a rather foolhardy threat to annihilate not only the leader of a warmongering tribe of raiders but his entire army. At the present time I'm looking for cheap and effective modes of subterfuge I can use to even the odds.
I'm currently looking for ways to rid them of resources (food, water, weapons, etc).
Additionally, there is a tyrannical leader who I would like to have turn against the tribe leader, or visa-versa. Tactics for this would also be helpful (I have a good disguise, forgery, gather information and bluff if that is helpful).

Thanks.

EDIT: My current plan costs me over $25,000 gp, which I cannot afford any time soon and it is highly improbable it would work.

Jarian
2011-02-07, 07:28 PM
A few ingested poisons sprinkled in their food and water would go a long way, if you can manage it.

Weapons... get a Rust Monster or twenty and set them loose?

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 07:29 PM
A few ingested poisons sprinkled in their food and water would go a long way, if you can manage it.

Weapons... get a Rust Monster or twenty and set them loose?

I was thinking about poisoning the food before. Another idea was to try and sneak an ooze or three into their stronghold. The issue arises with getting the oozes or the rust monsters into the stronghold and finding a way to wrangle them.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-02-07, 07:33 PM
erm... well, a cheap but very slow method would be to kill a couple here and there brigand style as they patrol the area that they/their leader controls. Other than that, its gonna cost a lot of money.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 07:35 PM
erm... well, a cheap but very slow method would be to kill a couple here and there brigand style as they patrol the area that they/their leader controls. Other than that, its gonna cost a lot of money.

My character still needs to continue his adventuring with the other PC's though, so sticking around to slaughter them all won't work. Also, I'm not really looking to fight them all; I want to deal with as many as possible with as little hand-dirtying as possible.

Jarian
2011-02-07, 07:38 PM
Well, if you want more specific advice...

What level is your character, what resources do you have available to you, and how much are you willing to devote to killing these things?

Asheram
2011-02-07, 07:42 PM
You always could hope that "The law of conservation of ninjutsu" applies and charge?

Naw. But I agree with the previous. Poisons, diseases, trying to incite civil war.
I do hope your character isn't good.

Amnestic
2011-02-07, 07:44 PM
Tactics for this would also be helpful (I have a good disguise, forgery, gather information and bluff if that is helpful).


You'd need a method of certain escape from Tyrannical Leader Guy (TLG), but disguising yourself as a member of Raider Tribe Leader Guy's (RTLG) tribe and then going to TLG in person with a forged declaration of war, and perhaps a few real dead soldiers of TLGs forces, and rubbing it in his face, before teleporting/whatever away, could easily spark off the conflict. Could do the reverse too - kill a few of RTLG's tribe, stick them on pikes with the symbol of TLG's country/army emblazoned upon them as a clear "message". In addition, you could acquire the services of TLG's close advisor if you're decent at diplomacy/bluff ("If TLG goes to war with RTLG, he'll die and then you can rule!") or if you just have some mind-dominating spells for the same effect to help push it along.

Shouldn't cost more than the price of an escape plan, plus some forgery/disguise costs and whatever expenditures you make killing a few grunts.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-07, 07:46 PM
Lure them into a narrow pass, then cause an avalanche? Hope for a dry season, then set the forest they're in on fire? use the environment against them. Use the historical examples of Lawrence of Arabia, the Americans in the American Revolution, the Vietnamese in the Vietnam War, Erwin Rommel, the French Revolution, the British Resistance during WWII, etc. There are plenty of examples in history of people with fewer resources and fewer numbers achieving victory through attrition, intelligence, and just plain luck.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 07:47 PM
Well, if you want more specific advice...

What level is your character, what resources do you have available to you, and how much are you willing to devote to killing these things?

My character is 9th level (3 Factotum/3 Swash/3 Protean Adept). Almost all of my wealth has been spent on equipment. I can cast some spells (only up to second level). I don't know how much wealth I'll accumulate before I face the tribe and it's leader, but I can liquidate some of what I currently have, but not much.
I know it's not an easy question, but I'm looking for good hypotheticals and plans that require as little wealth as possible.

ClockShock
2011-02-07, 07:48 PM
Put the Bluff and Forgery to good use by finding an even bigger army to do the work.
You'll probably find someone powerful in your adventuring (Wizard!?), so when you do make a few checks and convince them to do some damage.

Eurus
2011-02-07, 07:51 PM
Yeah, find a major kingdom and convince them that this group is enough of a threat to merit action. Not your problem anymore! :smallbiggrin:

Bibliomancer
2011-02-07, 07:51 PM
Did you put a timestamp on the annihilation threat? In a normal campaign, they'll be an inconsequential nuisance in 4-5 levels and you could come back and wipe them out with ease.

Unfortunately, when it comes to slaughtering enemies, there are three attributes to keep in mind: fast, cheap, safe. Pick two.

If you need cheap and safe, guerilla tactics over an extended period of time are in order (or waiting, as mentioned above).
If you need fast and cheap, go for a head up battle, although you may well lose.
If you need safe and fast, there are certainly several magic item exploits available (or even just hiring normal mercenaries).

Short of something major being overlooked here (ingested poisons, for example, are expensive and ineffective, and so don't constitute a way out) that's the situation.

One quick thing you could try would be to spend the next adventure getting someone (a metallic dragon, say) to owe you a favor, then calling it in to help destroy them. Still not very fast, though.

BRC
2011-02-07, 07:52 PM
Your best bet is to incite a ware between the Raiders and some bigger, more powerful force. They're Raiders, right? Maybe trick them into raiding a caravan carrying the salaries of the king's troops, or buy something nice and shiny for your local dragon, announce that you are giving it to said dragon as a gift, then have the Raider guy's steal it en-route. By the time they realize what they did, they've got a dragon that believes they stole what was essentially part of it's horde.

If your Bluff skill is reaally, really good, you may not even need to HAVE such a gift. Merely tell the Dragon you've got one, then tell him it was stolen by the raiders.
Or actually steal something, and make it look like the raiders did it (Perhaps dropping it into the Raider camp. Red dragons get Locate Object, and will probably use that to find whatever you took, which should lead them straight to the raiders.)

Edit: "Dragon" can be replaced by "Anybody who takes offense at people taking their stuff, and is powerful enough to seriously ruin the raider's day"

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 07:53 PM
Lure them into a narrow pass, then cause an avalanche? Hope for a dry season, then set the forest they're in on fire? use the environment against them. Use the historical examples of Lawrence of Arabia, the Americans in the American Revolution, the Vietnamese in the Vietnam War, Erwin Rommel, the French Revolution, the British Resistance during WWII, etc. There are plenty of examples in history of people with fewer resources and fewer numbers achieving victory through attrition, intelligence, and just plain luck.

I will ask my DM about the environment when I get the chance. I am a firm believer in using one's surroundings against them and, more importantly, so is my character.


You'd need a method of certain escape from Tyrannical Leader Guy (TLG), but disguising yourself as a member of Raider Tribe Leader Guy's (RTLG) tribe and then going to TLG in person with a forged declaration of war, and perhaps a few real dead soldiers of TLGs forces, and rubbing it in his face, before teleporting/whatever away, could easily spark off the conflict. Could do the reverse too - kill a few of RTLG's tribe, stick them on pikes with the symbol of TLG's country/army emblazoned upon them as a clear "message". In addition, you could acquire the services of TLG's close advisor if you're decent at diplomacy/bluff ("If TLG goes to war with RTLG, he'll die and then you can rule!") or if you just have some mind-dominating spells for the same effect to help push it along.

Shouldn't cost more than the price of an escape plan, plus some forgery/disguise costs and whatever expenditures you make killing a few grunts.

I was thinking of doing just that, save sending a doop instead of myself or leaving a note by a dead messenger stating as much.


Put the Bluff and Forgery to good use by finding an even bigger army to do the work.
You'll probably find someone powerful in your adventuring (Wizard!?), so when you do make a few checks and convince them to do some damage.

That is why I am trying to turn the TLG's army against the RTLG. I've already met a few powerful individuals while adventuring, but my DM likes to mind-F us, so trusting most NPCs is inadvisable.

Bibliomancer
2011-02-07, 07:55 PM
What quest, if any, are you on at the moment?

I doubt the party members would be adverse to killing raiders for a while (its like a dungeon but with more room to maneuver and fewer traps!), assuming whatever you're currently doing is not time-critical.

It should be a fairly easy sell.They're raiders, therefore they have loot stolen from the surrounding area. Additionally, they have a functional fortress, which you would acquire if you defeat them. In 2e, 9th level was about the time PCs would start building fortresses and acquiring armies, so your DM should be not drastically opposed to it.

Edit: and if you didn't want the fortress, you could offer it as spoils to the TLG in exchange for his help taking the raiders out.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 08:03 PM
Did you put a timestamp on the annihilation threat? In a normal campaign, they'll be an inconsequential nuisance in 4-5 levels and you could come back and wipe them out with ease.

Unfortunately, when it comes to slaughtering enemies, there are three attributes to keep in mind: fast, cheap, safe. Pick two.

If you need cheap and safe, guerilla tactics over an extended period of time are in order (or waiting, as mentioned above).
If you need fast and cheap, go for a head up battle, although you may well lose.
If you need safe and fast, there are certainly several magic item exploits available (or even just hiring normal mercenaries).

Short of something major being overlooked here (ingested poisons, for example, are expensive and ineffective, and so don't constitute a way out) that's the situation.

One quick thing you could try would be to spend the next adventure getting someone (a metallic dragon, say) to owe you a favor, then calling it in to help destroy them. Still not very fast, though.

I'm looking for safe and cheap, though I need to follow through with this threat in the next... I think 5 months in-game time.
I'm mostly looking for trickery and sabotage that will make my final assault much easier.
Two key questions are:

1) What can I do to weaken the RTLG's forces now that will last into the future when I need to fight them.

2) How can I prep the battle-field to my advantage.


What quest, if any, are you on at the moment?

I doubt the party members would be adverse to killing raiders for a while (its like a dungeon but with more room to maneuver and fewer traps!), assuming whatever you're currently doing is not time-critical.

It should be a fairly easy sell.They're raiders, therefore they have loot stolen from the surrounding area. Additionally, they have a functional fortress, which you would acquire if you defeat them. In 2e, 9th level was about the time PCs would start building fortresses and acquiring armies, so your DM should be not drastically opposed to it.

Edit: and if you didn't want the fortress, you could offer it as spoils to the TLG in exchange for his help taking the raiders out.

Two snags in that are that we need to kill the TLG in the near future and the RTLG is the grandfather of two of the party members, so I really can't go to them for much help.

I'm not on any quests at the moment.


Yeah, find a major kingdom and convince them that this group is enough of a threat to merit action. Not your problem anymore! :smallbiggrin:

Because I made the threat I'd like to follow through on it personally. Additionally, the TLG is the leader of the Continent not the country, so finding other kingdoms to help us could be a bit difficult.

dgnslyr
2011-02-07, 08:08 PM
Poisons are typically too expensive to be cost effective, but if you can find a way to get Minor Creation (the psionic version's only a first-level power) you can make as much plant-based poison as you want. I'm looking at you, lotus extract.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-07, 08:23 PM
Get some green slime or yellow mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm) (DMG page 76), find a way to transport it to their stronghold, and find a way to get it to reproduce. I'd prefer green slime, you would have to transport it in a sealed stone box, or maybe a glass jar. Get a tiny bit into their supply room where it has stuff to eat and it should quickly cause an infestation. That stuff will crawl throughout the keep, through the cracks between the stones, and they'll never be able to get rid of it for good.

Bibliomancer
2011-02-07, 08:23 PM
Two snags in that are that we need to kill the TLG in the near future and the RTLG is the grandfather of two of the party members, so I really can't go to them for much help.

Simple solution, then, if your party members don't know you made this threat:

Convince them to go to Grandad for help against the TLG. Specifically, use the raiders as bait to draw the TLG out of his fortress and into open country hunting them, then, contact the TLG and tell him you want to switch sides. Lead them to the fortress, the RTLG and his followers get slaughtered, and you're in a perfect position to off the TLG and claim (to any surviving party members) that it was a double-cross that took just a bit too long to get into position, and the tribe was an unfortunate, but necessary, casualty.

mint
2011-02-07, 08:51 PM
Do you have to kill more than 50 people? How large is the army? Why are they raiders? Subverting the raider army might be in the cards. This could be done in any nummer of ways. LIke offering them gainfull non-lifethreatening employ pr whatever.

wayfare
2011-02-07, 09:06 PM
As a cheap, wordsy way out of of your decree you could harry the guys troops for a while, fight a champion or two, and eventually challenge the dude to a duel. Take his position in the tribe, and make his people *YOUR* people.

Alternatively, you could set up a trojan horse sort of thing. Make an offering to appease him, hold a big feast, then poison everybody.

Ernir
2011-02-07, 09:16 PM
My character is 9th level (3 Factotum/3 Swash/3 Protean Adept). Almost all of my wealth has been spent on equipment. I can cast some spells (only up to second level). I don't know how much wealth I'll accumulate before I face the tribe and it's leader, but I can liquidate some of what I currently have, but not much.
I know it's not an easy question, but I'm looking for good hypotheticals and plans that require as little wealth as possible.

Step 1: Find a wight. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)
Step 2: Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandundead.htm).
Step 3: Repeat steps 1 and 2 as often as you dare.
Step 4: Sneak your Wight buddy into the camp of the new recruits, and have it poke one of them during the night.
Step 5: Escalating Wightapocalypse.
Step 6: Try to get your new Wight army somewhere else, because your control over them is based on your tenuous friendship with their master. xD

HunterOfJello
2011-02-07, 09:23 PM
1. Hire someone else to kill them
2. Run off and don't pay them

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-07, 10:01 PM
Poisons are typically too expensive to be cost effective, but if you can find a way to get Minor Creation (the psionic version's only a first-level power) you can make as much plant-based poison as you want. I'm looking at you, lotus extract.

Once my Protean Adept levels go up this will be a possibility, and a good one. Thanks.


Get some green slime or yellow mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm) (DMG page 76), find a way to transport it to their stronghold, and find a way to get it to reproduce. I'd prefer green slime, you would have to transport it in a sealed stone box, or maybe a glass jar. Get a tiny bit into their supply room where it has stuff to eat and it should quickly cause an infestation. That stuff will crawl throughout the keep, through the cracks between the stones, and they'll never be able to get rid of it for good.

I'm not entirely sure there are words to describe how much I love this. Putting it in my pocket for later, because this is much cheaper and easier than getting other bigger oozes or ooze producing traps (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10327654#post10327654).


Simple solution, then, if your party members don't know you made this threat:

Convince them to go to Grandad for help against the TLG. Specifically, use the raiders as bait to draw the TLG out of his fortress and into open country hunting them, then, contact the TLG and tell him you want to switch sides. Lead them to the fortress, the RTLG and his followers get slaughtered, and you're in a perfect position to off the TLG and claim (to any surviving party members) that it was a double-cross that took just a bit too long to get into position, and the tribe was an unfortunate, but necessary, casualty.

They unfortunately do, but I have two or three of them on my side (shadowbane stalker and shadowbane inquisitor). But there is a mineral warrior feral loth touched fighter, crusader/sorcerer/JPM and a swordsage/shadow-sun ninja who would be not overly pleased to say the least.


Do you have to kill more than 50 people? How large is the army? Why are they raiders? Subverting the raider army might be in the cards. This could be done in any nummer of ways. LIke offering them gainfull non-lifethreatening employ pr whatever.

I don't know how many I need to defeat. The raiders are primarily orcish and fiercely loyal to their leader, but I assume only because he is the strongest. Among them, however, are, what I assume, is a fiend of some sort or a doppelganger telepath, and a very powerful mage. I don't know what other powerful NPCs are among his forces.


As a cheap, wordsy way out of of your decree you could harry the guys troops for a while, fight a champion or two, and eventually challenge the dude to a duel. Take his position in the tribe, and make his people *YOUR* people.

Alternatively, you could set up a trojan horse sort of thing. Make an offering to appease him, hold a big feast, then poison everybody.

I plan on challenging him to a one on one, but I still made a promise I plan to keep. My character has other motivations for wanting them all dead and it would be hard to explain why he didn't follow through with their destruction. Those that surrender, of course, would be spared.


Step 1: Find a wight. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)
Step 2: Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandundead.htm).
Step 3: Repeat steps 1 and 2 as often as you dare.
Step 4: Sneak your Wight buddy into the camp of the new recruits, and have it poke one of them during the night.
Step 5: Escalating Wightapocalypse.
Step 6: Try to get your new Wight army somewhere else, because your control over them is based on your tenuous friendship with their master. xD

I worry that a powerful cleric among his forces could rebuke them all into slaughtering me. An army of primarily orcs or an army of primarily


1. Hire someone else to kill them
2. Run off and don't pay them

Nah, I'd like to take care of this. For getting a powerful distrust between the RTLG and the TLG would be good though; hire some mercenaries to attack one of them under orders given by letter and gold, or while disguised. I like it.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-02-08, 02:32 AM
Hello, I (the mind-Fing DM) will help clear some things here.

The "raiders" are not raiders, but a newly founded orcish empire. Tib would have to kill (either through subterfuge or with assistance) at least 10,000 orcs. A wight-pocalypse would be effective only up to a certain level, as the leader (Tib's actual target) is well defended against such tactics.

The tyrannical warlord is attempting to cleanse the world of all non-humans.

The major issue is we are talking about two high-level warriors here, not petty minor villains. The orcish king could easily be taken out in a 1-on-1 against the tyrannical warlord as the tyrant out CRs him by 6 points.

Assuming we are talking only about Andgan (the orc), his "homebase" is simple really. It's built on top of a hill, overlooking a far stretching plain scattered with rivers and lakes. The city used to be a slaving tradepost, but he found it to his likeing and moved in. Attacking him would involve (if one was doing it head on, which I know we aren't, but we need a baseline);
passing the outer walls (sturdy and thick from when it was a slaving town)
fighting past the 10,000 standing army in and around the area, counting those who would be called in from other fronts to defend the king
evading Andgan's personal cabal of priests and shamans
not being stopped by either his mindspy succubus lover or his powerful glass cannon mage
fighting him, a large-sized dungeoncrasher orc warlord able to see the future.

Though I'm a difficult DM as Tib has said, I'm willing to co-operate here for good planning. Any questions about the specs I can answer.

mint
2011-02-08, 09:39 AM
Ah.
That is a lot of orcs.
So even if the leader is killed you still have 10 000 orcs to deal with. Or, well, someone will have to deal with them, whether they split up, raid and destabilize the region or find new leadership quickly and efficiently, negating the effects of the assassination.

The outcome I would go for is leaving the orcs disorganized, not an empire, demoralized, ethically splintered and with greatly reduced fighting numbers.
Some raiders and hold outs, no credible threats to the region.

My favorite part of rpgs is plotting and scheme/counter-schemeing. so...sorry if that shows too much here :3


Preparation:
Find a way to subvert the warlords ability to see the future. I get too embarrassed to preform when somebody watches my shadowy arts and crafts. Tops would be the ability to control what he sees in the future. That would just be rad.
Either way, ruining him and everything he loves and believes in will be tricky when you can not be x steps ahead of him.

Gather intelligence. See if you can find any sort of factions.
Iif you find them you may be able to effect your schemes through them. Like say the orc ladies if the orc society is not fantasy gender-egalitarian.
Pre-empire tribal groupings, they are bound to resurface.
All the orcs can not possibly have the same outlook, motivations and values.
Infighting is your best friend because there is only you and there are at least 10 000 of them. It seems only fair that they should do their fair share.
Reduce them to bickering ineffective infants or unite a credible opposition against the warlord from within.
There are so many possible ways to have things spin out of control here.

See if there is any leeway with the kill all non-humans gentleman. I assume he is the external threat the orcs are banding together against. It would be a big win if you could make him not be that guy for them.

Acts of terrorism:
I think there are two main ways to go here. Either you do them blatantly and take personal credit, creating fear and a myth around your character.
Or you do it sneakily, preferably without magic. A streak of fail is bad for morale. Things to look for: cutting of trade or ties with other external factions. Large scale poisoning or diseases, select wightpocalypses.

The army of 10 000:
How are they all fed and supplied in general?
Either it is brought from the surrounding countryside or clerics create it i guess?
In the first case, there might be stockpiles or central processing. You dont need to poison all of it. Just enough to make eating scary.
If they drag out casters to detect poison, you get an opportunity to kill them.
In the latter case, you go after the clerics straight away.

Once their supplies start to dwindle, they will be unable to remain 10 000 strong in one location. They may then spread out. This is a great chance to splinter the army for you. Kill messengers. All your hard work trying to create schisms will hopefully really start to pay off at this point.
The army groups are spread out, they are mostly cut of from the command structure, they lack supplies. It is not a great situation.
If they don't start raiding each other on their own, help them out.

Hopefully at this point,
A meaningful part of the army is fighting itself, the citizenry is suffering, eating is scary, the warlord can no longer see the future, the army is decentralized.
I think that's a start. Ultimately, how effective this type of thing becomes is up to the DM and there are so many variables to begin with.
I think what to do next depends a lot on how this first bit goes.

Dross
2011-02-08, 11:07 AM
Has anybody mentioned biological warfare yet?
Hit them with the plague. Toss a couple of plague infested rats into their barracks. The onset time of the plague should then give you time to assassinate the clerics in the army.
Might not get all of them this way, but you are liable to make a significant dent.
This trick was good enough for Ghengis Khan (and wiped out a fifth of the population of Europe), so it should be good enough for anybody.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 12:09 PM
Hello, I (the mind-Fing DM) will help clear some things here.

The "raiders" are not raiders, but a newly founded orcish empire. Tib would have to kill (either through subterfuge or with assistance) at least 10,000 orcs. A wight-pocalypse would be effective only up to a certain level, as the leader (Tib's actual target) is well defended against such tactics.

The tyrannical warlord is attempting to cleanse the world of all non-humans.

The major issue is we are talking about two high-level warriors here, not petty minor villains. The orcish king could easily be taken out in a 1-on-1 against the tyrannical warlord as the tyrant out CRs him by 6 points.

Assuming we are talking only about Andgan (the orc), his "homebase" is simple really. It's built on top of a hill, overlooking a far stretching plain scattered with rivers and lakes. The city used to be a slaving tradepost, but he found it to his likeing and moved in. Attacking him would involve (if one was doing it head on, which I know we aren't, but we need a baseline);
passing the outer walls (sturdy and thick from when it was a slaving town)
fighting past the 10,000 standing army in and around the area, counting those who would be called in from other fronts to defend the king
evading Andgan's personal cabal of priests and shamans
not being stopped by either his mindspy succubus lover or his powerful glass cannon mage
fighting him, a large-sized dungeoncrasher orc warlord able to see the future.

Though I'm a difficult DM as Tib has said, I'm willing to co-operate here for good planning. Any questions about the specs I can answer.


Somehow you're always here; it frightens me a bit.


Ah.
That is a lot of orcs.
So even if the leader is killed you still have 10 000 orcs to deal with. Or, well, someone will have to deal with them, whether they split up, raid and destabilize the region or find new leadership quickly and efficiently, negating the effects of the assassination.

The outcome I would go for is leaving the orcs disorganized, not an empire, demoralized, ethically splintered and with greatly reduced fighting numbers.
Some raiders and hold outs, no credible threats to the region.

My favorite part of rpgs is plotting and scheme/counter-schemeing. so...sorry if that shows too much here :3


Preparation:
Find a way to subvert the warlords ability to see the future. I get too embarrassed to preform when somebody watches my shadowy arts and crafts. Tops would be the ability to control what he sees in the future. That would just be rad.
Either way, ruining him and everything he loves and believes in will be tricky when you can not be x steps ahead of him.

Gather intelligence. See if you can find any sort of factions.
Iif you find them you may be able to effect your schemes through them. Like say the orc ladies if the orc society is not fantasy gender-egalitarian.
Pre-empire tribal groupings, they are bound to resurface.
All the orcs can not possibly have the same outlook, motivations and values.
Infighting is your best friend because there is only you and there are at least 10 000 of them. It seems only fair that they should do their fair share.
Reduce them to bickering ineffective infants or unite a credible opposition against the warlord from within.
There are so many possible ways to have things spin out of control here.

See if there is any leeway with the kill all non-humans gentleman. I assume he is the external threat the orcs are banding together against. It would be a big win if you could make him not be that guy for them.

Acts of terrorism:
I think there are two main ways to go here. Either you do them blatantly and take personal credit, creating fear and a myth around your character.
Or you do it sneakily, preferably without magic. A streak of fail is bad for morale. Things to look for: cutting of trade or ties with other external factions. Large scale poisoning or diseases, select wightpocalypses.

The army of 10 000:
How are they all fed and supplied in general?
Either it is brought from the surrounding countryside or clerics create it i guess?
In the first case, there might be stockpiles or central processing. You dont need to poison all of it. Just enough to make eating scary.
If they drag out casters to detect poison, you get an opportunity to kill them.
In the latter case, you go after the clerics straight away.

Once their supplies start to dwindle, they will be unable to remain 10 000 strong in one location. They may then spread out. This is a great chance to splinter the army for you. Kill messengers. All your hard work trying to create schisms will hopefully really start to pay off at this point.
The army groups are spread out, they are mostly cut of from the command structure, they lack supplies. It is not a great situation.
If they don't start raiding each other on their own, help them out.

Hopefully at this point,
A meaningful part of the army is fighting itself, the citizenry is suffering, eating is scary, the warlord can no longer see the future, the army is decentralized.
I think that's a start. Ultimately, how effective this type of thing becomes is up to the DM and there are so many variables to begin with.
I think what to do next depends a lot on how this first bit goes.

Figuring out ho w he sees into the future is a must. That means, I figure, disguising myself, Gather Information checks and knowledge checks (I know it, my character doesn't, so I need to know he can do it before I can research a way of stopping him from doing it).
If they have food stores then slimes and fungi are my best bet (maybe cast invisibility on them as well so they're harder to find and exterminate?).
Much of the food would have to be grown or magically produced. Either way, some poison and well placed words makes it easy for distrust to rise. If I can make them distrust the clerics then I don't even need to worry about them (if the people that heal you poisoned you, why would you ask them to heal you? Better yet, why not kill them?).
Additionally, if the food comes from outside, them wightpocolypse could work on those smaller areas and/or smaller bases located around the area he would call reinforcements from.


Has anybody mentioned biological warfare yet?
Hit them with the plague. Toss a couple of plague infested rats into their barracks. The onset time of the plague should then give you time to assassinate the clerics in the army.
Might not get all of them this way, but you are liable to make a significant dent.
This trick was good enough for Ghengis Khan (and wiped out a fifth of the population of Europe), so it should be good enough for anybody.

It was and there is no reason I can do it either. However, you have the issue that if I can make the Fort save with my meager Fort then so can most of them. It may be a better idea to get a magical disease of some kind into their food or water.
If there are lakes and river around them they either get their water from a well or have people go out and fetch it with buckets. Either way, it's not to difficult to contaminate either.
If I can get the poison into the food and water then the glass-cannon should fall on his own.

Tohron
2011-02-08, 12:35 PM
Pay a shadowcraft mage to Shadow True Create a large outcropping over the edge of a cliff (fairly expensive, since it's an 8th level spell with XP costs). Be sure to carry some sort of teleportation item. Taunt the enemy army into attacking you while standing on the end of the shadow-outcropping. Once the army has reached you, have the mage dismiss the spell, and use your teleport item to escape.

Result: large portion of the enemy army falls to their deaths.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 12:47 PM
Pay a shadowcraft mage to Shadow True Create a large outcropping over the edge of a cliff (fairly expensive, since it's an 8th level spell with XP costs). Be sure to carry some sort of teleportation item. Taunt the enemy army into attacking you while standing on the end of the shadow-outcropping. Once the army has reached you, have the mage dismiss the spell, and use your teleport item to escape.

Result: large portion of the enemy army falls to their deaths.

Unfortunately, I am looking for cost-effective ideas. I do not currently have the wealth for such a plan and, if I want to keep my equipment i any way up to snuff, I won't have the disposablewealth for such an act in the future either.

Sipex
2011-02-08, 12:53 PM
I have no idea what you can or cannot do due to my limited 3.5 knowledge.

That said, I will echo 'use the terrain against them'. Can you flood the castle somehow? Blow it up? Cause it to collapse due to the ground below it being hollowed out?

Tenebris
2011-02-08, 12:56 PM
(I assume that all the enemy soldiers are not very high level opponents. If they were it would be really unrealistic.)

1a. Be a dragonborn. It's a template, you can get this one any time.
1b. Alternatively you can find another way to get a breath weapon. Some vestiges maybe.
2. Take Entangling Exhalation and Enlarge Breath feats. You can use the rules of retraining :smallwink:
3. Find a hill or something like that near enemy's camp. It would be perfect if you could fly. (This step is not necessary but helpful. Plus, it makes this trick more realistic.)
4. Burn them all (since you can enlarge your breath ad infinitum).

Unfortunately you have to wait several days until your breath recharges :smallfrown:

(This trick can bring you near epic if both you and opponents are first level. If they are much stronger it probably won't work, but up to CR 3 should do fine - that's why you have taken Entangling Exhalation, at low levels it boost your breath damage.)

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 01:21 PM
I have no idea what you can or cannot do due to my limited 3.5 knowledge.

That said, I will echo 'use the terrain against them'. Can you flood the castle somehow? Blow it up? Cause it to collapse due to the ground below it being hollowed out?

Hollowing out the hill the stronghold is on is a good idea. I had been toying with it but haven't had the chance to see if there is anything I could become using Alter Self would be capable. someone let me know if there is, please.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-02-08, 01:47 PM
Now that it is not the wee hours of the morning, I'll detail what we have as power factions in this part of the world.

Andgan: The target of this assassination attempt/all-out attack. Massive orc warlord able to see the future. Known for personally mutilating enemies who get in his way. Neutral Evil in alignment, personal guard consisting of a succubus mindspy and an initiate of the sevenfold veil with ready access to Apocalypse from the Sky and the Wight-pocalypse (Snowcasting Flash Frost Fell Drain Locate City). The former spell was used to destroy Tibís hometown at the start of the game, hence why this warlord must die.

Francis the Redeemer: Omnicidal warlord. Twenty years ago, at the fall of the monarchy and noble houses and the reclaiming of the Royal City, the two met on the field of battle as allies. Francis was one of the few to survive the Apocalypse from the Sky at such a close range, and was the only one of his group to applaud Andgan's use of excessive tactics to win. Though originally a Death Knight Blackguard, he has regained his mortality, and weakness, for the time being thanks to a wandering Nymph saint. Andgan (and the others on this list) are the only thing standing between him and his goal of human purity (odd considering his army is goblinoid, but heíll do away with them before the end). Lawful Evil in alignment, most powerful generals include a psuedonatural thrall of Demogorgon who possesses a flying warship and a crusader who is from the same village as Tib.

Queen Elaina: the ruler of the many barbarian tribes, her kingdom was cut in half when Andgan, her father in-law, broke away from her. She fights both the forces of Andgan and Francis, though she wishes to enlist Andganís help against her former teammate (Francis) from years ago. She has a small group of dedicated warriors as her honour guard, but they are no match for the champions of the other two. The only high level associate of hers is Cruavar, her husband and Andganís son, who is a skilled spellcaster in his own right. Chaotic Good in alignment.

Others: The paladin organization the Order of Illumination allied itself briefly with Andgan through coercion on the orcís part, but has since fallen out of this agreement. The reason is that ten infernal cult leaders, including a high ranking member of the Order, have taken control of the city of Dorunsmere, where the part of the Order that had allied with Andgan was stationed. These infernal disciples also wish to see Francis removed, though they like the idea of manipulating Andgan instead of killing him. The eastern port city of Porthos has thrown in with Elaina after the city was devastated by a Wight-pocalypse (it wasnít so bad, the undead upper class just lost all their mortal servants basically) brought upon them by Andgan, and they also are none too fond of Francis. Finally, the great lich wizard Andaer, who used to rule the city of Dorunsmere but has fled since, was originally an ally of Elaina before switching sides to Francis, and he may yet betray Francis to Andgan if it could save him the wrath of those seeking to destroy him.[/list]


Has anybody mentioned biological warfare yet?
Hit them with the plague. Toss a couple of plague infested rats into their barracks. The onset time of the plague should then give you time to assassinate the clerics in the army.
Might not get all of them this way, but you are liable to make a significant dent.
This trick was good enough for Ghengis Khan (and wiped out a fifth of the population of Europe), so it should be good enough for anybody.

Plague is a start. A really good start. The city is congested as all get out right now with his armies marshalling for war on all fronts, and well placed plague could do the trick. It's actually really simple, create the catalyst for disease, not the disease itself if your Fort is low. One of the best for this is Blue Guts from BoVD, just find some aberrations, grind their organs up, put it in the stores of food and prestidigitation the horrid taste away. A week later you'll have an army that eating itself from the innards out.


Ah.
That is a lot of orcs.
So even if the leader is killed you still have 10 000 orcs to deal with. Or, well, someone will have to deal with them, whether they split up, raid and destabilize the region or find new leadership quickly and efficiently, negating the effects of the assassination.

The outcome I would go for is leaving the orcs disorganized, not an empire, demoralized, ethically splintered and with greatly reduced fighting numbers.
Some raiders and hold outs, no credible threats to the region.

My favorite part of rpgs is plotting and scheme/counter-schemeing. so...sorry if that shows too much here :3


Preparation:
Find a way to subvert the warlords ability to see the future. I get too embarrassed to preform when somebody watches my shadowy arts and crafts. Tops would be the ability to control what he sees in the future. That would just be rad.
Either way, ruining him and everything he loves and believes in will be tricky when you can not be x steps ahead of him.

Gather intelligence. See if you can find any sort of factions.
Iif you find them you may be able to effect your schemes through them. Like say the orc ladies if the orc society is not fantasy gender-egalitarian.
Pre-empire tribal groupings, they are bound to resurface.
All the orcs can not possibly have the same outlook, motivations and values.
Infighting is your best friend because there is only you and there are at least 10 000 of them. It seems only fair that they should do their fair share.
Reduce them to bickering ineffective infants or unite a credible opposition against the warlord from within.
There are so many possible ways to have things spin out of control here.

See if there is any leeway with the kill all non-humans gentleman. I assume he is the external threat the orcs are banding together against. It would be a big win if you could make him not be that guy for them.

Acts of terrorism:
I think there are two main ways to go here. Either you do them blatantly and take personal credit, creating fear and a myth around your character.
Or you do it sneakily, preferably without magic. A streak of fail is bad for morale. Things to look for: cutting of trade or ties with other external factions. Large scale poisoning or diseases, select wightpocalypses.

The army of 10 000:
How are they all fed and supplied in general?
Either it is brought from the surrounding countryside or clerics create it i guess?
In the first case, there might be stockpiles or central processing. You dont need to poison all of it. Just enough to make eating scary.
If they drag out casters to detect poison, you get an opportunity to kill them.
In the latter case, you go after the clerics straight away.

Once their supplies start to dwindle, they will be unable to remain 10 000 strong in one location. They may then spread out. This is a great chance to splinter the army for you. Kill messengers. All your hard work trying to create schisms will hopefully really start to pay off at this point.
The army groups are spread out, they are mostly cut of from the command structure, they lack supplies. It is not a great situation.
If they don't start raiding each other on their own, help them out.

Hopefully at this point,
A meaningful part of the army is fighting itself, the citizenry is suffering, eating is scary, the warlord can no longer see the future, the army is decentralized.
I think that's a start. Ultimately, how effective this type of thing becomes is up to the DM and there are so many variables to begin with.
I think what to do next depends a lot on how this first bit goes.
A good plan. Tib, pay attention to this as a skeleton, though obviously adapt it to what you know specifically.

The food and water are obtained in normal ways, though Andgan keeps a man in the shadows for providing food for his personal court. The rest of the 10,000 though eat from farms, drink from wells, and carouse using brewed beers, distilled liquor and fine wines. Andgan is attempting to civilize them without relying on other races foods and drink. Come ot think of it, killing his lord high minister of culture might do quite alot for klling moral:smalltongue:

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 02:26 PM
Now that it is not the wee hours of the morning, I'll detail what we have as power factions in this part of the world.

Andgan: The target of this assassination attempt/all-out attack. Massive orc warlord able to see the future. Known for personally mutilating enemies who get in his way. Neutral Evil in alignment, personal guard consisting of a succubus mindspy and an initiate of the sevenfold veil with ready access to Apocalypse from the Sky and the Wight-pocalypse (Snowcasting Flash Frost Fell Drain Locate City). The former spell was used to destroy Tibís hometown at the start of the game, hence why this warlord must die.

Francis the Redeemer: Omnicidal warlord. Twenty years ago, at the fall of the monarchy and noble houses and the reclaiming of the Royal City, the two met on the field of battle as allies. Francis was one of the few to survive the Apocalypse from the Sky at such a close range, and was the only one of his group to applaud Andgan's use of excessive tactics to win. Though originally a Death Knight Blackguard, he has regained his mortality, and weakness, for the time being thanks to a wandering Nymph saint. Andgan (and the others on this list) are the only thing standing between him and his goal of human purity (odd considering his army is goblinoid, but heíll do away with them before the end). Lawful Evil in alignment, most powerful generals include a psuedonatural thrall of Demogorgon who possesses a flying warship and a crusader who is from the same village as Tib.

Queen Elaina: the ruler of the many barbarian tribes, her kingdom was cut in half when Andgan, her father in-law, broke away from her. She fights both the forces of Andgan and Francis, though she wishes to enlist Andganís help against her former teammate (Francis) from years ago. She has a small group of dedicated warriors as her honour guard, but they are no match for the champions of the other two. The only high level associate of hers is Cruavar, her husband and Andganís son, who is a skilled spellcaster in his own right. Chaotic Good in alignment.

Others: The paladin organization the Order of Illumination allied itself briefly with Andgan through coercion on the orcís part, but has since fallen out of this agreement. The reason is that ten infernal cult leaders, including a high ranking member of the Order, have taken control of the city of Dorunsmere, where the part of the Order that had allied with Andgan was stationed. These infernal disciples also wish to see Francis removed, though they like the idea of manipulating Andgan instead of killing him. The eastern port city of Porthos has thrown in with Elaina after the city was devastated by a Wight-pocalypse (it wasnít so bad, the undead upper class just lost all their mortal servants basically) brought upon them by Andgan, and they also are none too fond of Francis. Finally, the great lich wizard Andaer, who used to rule the city of Dorunsmere but has fled since, was originally an ally of Elaina before switching sides to Francis, and he may yet betray Francis to Andgan if it could save him the wrath of those seeking to destroy him.[/list]



Plague is a start. A really good start. The city is congested as all get out right now with his armies marshalling for war on all fronts, and well placed plague could do the trick. It's actually really simple, create the catalyst for disease, not the disease itself if your Fort is low. One of the best for this is Blue Guts from BoVD, just find some aberrations, grind their organs up, put it in the stores of food and prestidigitation the horrid taste away. A week later you'll have an army that eating itself from the innards out.


A good plan. Tib, pay attention to this as a skeleton, though obviously adapt it to what you know specifically.

The food and water are obtained in normal ways, though Andgan keeps a man in the shadows for providing food for his personal court. The rest of the 10,000 though eat from farms, drink from wells, and carouse using brewed beers, distilled liquor and fine wines. Andgan is attempting to civilize them without relying on other races foods and drink. Come ot think of it, killing his lord high minister of culture might do quite alot for klling moral:smalltongue:

I'm currently forming a plan, which involves aspects of both mentioned above. I was going to refrain from BoVD stuff, mostly because the people would might be helping me are all LG; do't know how they'd feel about Blue Guts.

Forthe food and water: is the food delivered and how much to they store at a time. Can I easily find out who produces it for them or do they make it themselves? Are the wells within the compound or do they make trips out to it?

Further development in planning will probably require me to make some checks and see what I can do.

Additional suggestion are always welcome. Keep 'em coming!

mint
2011-02-08, 02:39 PM
Two more:

If Andgan has an intelligence agency, well your character is amazing at replacement killing. Just sayin.

The initiate of the seven fold veil. I would try to find out more about him. Find a way to screw with him.
Coming up with awful things is the easy part of destroying someone. It would be good for you to know more about him.
Family, interests, motivation, job description, duties, friends, favorite fruit. You just need to find a loose seam to pull at. I think targeting him would be a good use of your time.

randomhero00
2011-02-08, 02:44 PM
Just write it into the epilogue? I mean, unless you're playing with real amounts of time (if so bravo) like taking an in-game character break from adventuring for a couple years every couple levels (like for family or normal jobs), then you'll be high level in no time (in game time, even if in real time it takes years). So you'd still uphold your oath. And you can move on from this.

In other words, its usually under a year in game time to get to level 20 (which is nuts). Unless your characters are taking realistic breaks. Since most people don't play that way...I'm assuming you don't either.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 03:08 PM
Two more:

If Andgan has an intelligence agency, well your character is amazing at replacement killing. Just sayin.

The initiate of the seven fold veil. I would try to find out more about him. Find a way to screw with him.
Coming up with awful things is the easy part of destroying someone. It would be good for you to know more about him.
Family, interests, motivation, job description, duties, friends, favorite fruit. You just need to find a loose seam to pull at. I think targeting him would be a good use of your time.

I would need to find a way to negate his future sight, or at least making sure it cant see me, before infiltrating any part of his organization. It is something I intend to o, to some extent.


Just write it into the epilogue? I mean, unless you're playing with real amounts of time (if so bravo) like taking an in-game character break from adventuring for a couple years every couple levels (like for family or normal jobs), then you'll be high level in no time (in game time, even if in real time it takes years). So you'd still uphold your oath. And you can move on from this.

In other words, its usually under a year in game time to get to level 20 (which is nuts). Unless your characters are taking realistic breaks. Since most people don't play that way...I'm assuming you don't either.

We do take breaks; we're currently on a break now. Though I'm sure it could be written up in the epilogue of the story, I would still much rather play it through, regardless of how difficult.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-02-08, 07:34 PM
For the food and water: is the food delivered and how much to they store at a time. Can I easily find out who produces it for them or do they make it themselves? Are the wells within the compound or do they make trips out to it?

It's farmed in the surrounding area, with several farms directly owned by Andgan. It's stored in large silos and warehouses, some magical in nature for fresh meat and other spoilables.

Wells are both inside and outside.

grarrrg
2011-02-08, 07:51 PM
You, with minimal support, vs. an army of Orcs?

This seemed appropriate (http://funnydndstories.com/apps/blog/show/3432504-sameo)

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 09:18 PM
It's farmed in the surrounding area, with several farms directly owned by Andgan. It's stored in large silos and warehouses, some magical in nature for fresh meat and other spoilables.

Wells are both inside and outside.

Seeing as it keeps meat fresh, does it prevent the growth of fungus or prevent poisons from taking hold?
Are the farms run by Andgan's orcs or civilians?


You, with minimal support, vs. an army of Orcs?

This seemed appropriate (http://funnydndstories.com/apps/blog/show/3432504-sameo)

That is an epic story.

Knaight
2011-02-08, 10:16 PM
The later information creates entirely new opportunities. A key one is that the Iot7V is a liability as much as an asset. Hit the guy with dominate monster, and get him to drop an apocalypse from the sky on his own army. Problem solved.

Of course, getting to that target isn't exactly easy, but that's where the adventure is. Its worth it for the poetic justice alone, add the sheer entertainment value and the plan is at least a good first step.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-08, 10:51 PM
I've found an additional issue. My character is NG and is part of an Exalted, though he is not Exalted. The issue is, any of the plans I had previously conceived would cause him to alter alignment and bring doom form the party upon him.
Any way this can be done without getting my party ready to burn me at the cross?

Sitzkrieg
2011-02-08, 11:03 PM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:
1)Find a level 13 Druid (it'll cost you an extra 70 gold for every level higher)
2)Pay it a mere 910 gold to cast Summon Nature's Ally VII (Djinni)
3)You have 13 rounds to politely ask it to cast Major Creation
4)Use Major Creation to create as much Black Lotus Extract as possible (Bring buckets)
5) The Djinni can create up to 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract (Contact, DC 20, 3d6 Con, 3d6 Con). This poison has a permanent duration, because vegetable matter created by Djinni is permanent.

I think the Druid might need to be neutral or good, and a good Druid may or may not approve of mass murder, so your mileage may vary. One dose of poison is the amount in one vial, which I think is about an ounce. There are almost 960 ounces in a cubic foot, so this should be more doses of poison than you need. Use liberally. Also, spend some time researching poisons or dark arts or something because this eeevil tactic should require some in-game knowledge.

EDIT:: Ooooh, you're Good? Maybe 19,200 doses of contact poison can convince you to come to the dark side....

Alternatively, sell your batch of poison for 86,400,000 gp, and watch your problems disappear under your pile of money? This is not a serious recommendation.

Tohron
2011-02-08, 11:12 PM
Unfortunately, I am looking for cost-effective ideas. I do not currently have the wealth for such a plan and, if I want to keep my equipment i any way up to snuff, I won't have the disposablewealth for such an act in the future either.

I suppose if you can find a good, large purely rock outcropping, a Sculpted Transmute Rock to Mud (adjusted level 6 - 5 if you can find someone with Arcane Thesis on it) for 660 or 450 gp will achieve the same effect by splitting the outcropping off of the cliff (a somewhat diagonal cut will give you the most horizontal area removed).

Tvtyrant
2011-02-08, 11:28 PM
The answer as I see it is to do several things at the same time;

1. Operation cata-dead. Capture and knock unconscious some of the enemy (say around 30). Have a Wight in a cage that allows it to hit things that are held up to the bars. Have a catapult and some people to load it. Now hold up each unconscious (reduced to 0 hitpoints via none-lethal damage) sentry to the Wight and let it kill them. Load the body into the catapult and fire it into the enemy base. Because the body is not yet an undead it will not take fall damage and so will have full HP when it becomes a Wight. Rinse and repeat until the enemy are in complete disarray. Alternatively have the bodies tied up before being killed so that they are tied up when becoming Wights. Have them tied in a pile inside a covered wagon and roll it up the door of the fortress and set it on fire. The Wights will survive the low damage fire but the ropes won't, and the enemy will have a lot of Wights to deal with.

2. Operation Wight Ambush. Same thing but have the people chained to a pair of bolts set in the ground (make sure they can't get ripped out). Attack the fortress in a flashy way, maybe even the above. Have the Wights be chained so that there are two groups, each member of each group has a 45ft. chain connecting them to the bolt. The bolts are set 105 ft. apart so that the Wights cannot reach a 5ft. area between them. Have the enemy chase you through the two groups of wights, which will rise up and attack. Because the enemy don't know about the safe spot they will likely follow you right into the ambush, especially if you hide the whole thing with a large fog spell. The enemy will lose some of their members, creating a chain wight reaction that will kill at least quite a few of them and likely all of the ones in the ambush. Now that there is a large group of Wights on the loose sneak to the fortress' water supply and poison it, and possibly their food. This will drive them out of the fortress and into the Wights.

3. You could also swap out the above with vampire spawn, which are stronger and less likely to get wiped out.

4. Capture some more of the enemy and give them the plague before giving them back. If needed do horrible things to some of them in plain sight to inspire the enemy leader to negotiate for them. Demand gold in return for their return, and then watch as they get wiped.

5. Hire a wizard to create a shadocalypse with Command Undead.



I've found an additional issue. My character is NG and is part of an Exalted, though he is not Exalted. The issue is, any of the plans I had previously conceived would cause him to alter alignment and bring doom form the party upon him.
Any way this can be done without getting my party ready to burn me at the cross?

Go tell the elves that the goblins are doing bad things? If your good your pretty much left with "walk in and start killing things" with the goal of fighting in narrow halls where the enemy can't use their numbers or spells effectively.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-09, 11:30 AM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:
1)Find a level 13 Druid (it'll cost you an extra 70 gold for every level higher)
2)Pay it a mere 910 gold to cast Summon Nature's Ally VII (Djinni)
3)You have 13 rounds to politely ask it to cast Major Creation
4)Use Major Creation to create as much Black Lotus Extract as possible (Bring buckets)
5) The Djinni can create up to 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract (Contact, DC 20, 3d6 Con, 3d6 Con). This poison has a permanent duration, because vegetable matter created by Djinni is permanent.

I think the Druid might need to be neutral or good, and a good Druid may or may not approve of mass murder, so your mileage may vary. One dose of poison is the amount in one vial, which I think is about an ounce. There are almost 960 ounces in a cubic foot, so this should be more doses of poison than you need. Use liberally. Also, spend some time researching poisons or dark arts or something because this eeevil tactic should require some in-game knowledge.

EDIT:: Ooooh, you're Good? Maybe 19,200 doses of contact poison can convince you to come to the dark side....

Alternatively, sell your batch of poison for 86,400,000 gp, and watch your problems disappear under your pile of money? This is not a serious recommendation.

Well, that either solves my issue about not the cash for enough poison to cover their food and water supplies simultaneously. Alertnatively, if could solve my momey issues period. It's a little frightening how effective that is; are you sure the poison doesn't disappear after the Djinni's summon time runs out?


I suppose if you can find a good, large purely rock outcropping, a Sculpted Transmute Rock to Mud (adjusted level 6 - 5 if you can find someone with Arcane Thesis on it) for 660 or 450 gp will achieve the same effect by splitting the outcropping off of the cliff (a somewhat diagonal cut will give you the most horizontal area removed).

I was looking for a way to hollow out the hill, but causing it the stronghold to slide away in the mud is also very effective, thank you.


The answer as I see it is to do several things at the same time;

1. Operation cata-dead. Capture and knock unconscious some of the enemy (say around 30). Have a Wight in a cage that allows it to hit things that are held up to the bars. Have a catapult and some people to load it. Now hold up each unconscious (reduced to 0 hitpoints via none-lethal damage) sentry to the Wight and let it kill them. Load the body into the catapult and fire it into the enemy base. Because the body is not yet an undead it will not take fall damage and so will have full HP when it becomes a Wight. Rinse and repeat until the enemy are in complete disarray. Alternatively have the bodies tied up before being killed so that they are tied up when becoming Wights. Have them tied in a pile inside a covered wagon and roll it up the door of the fortress and set it on fire. The Wights will survive the low damage fire but the ropes won't, and the enemy will have a lot of Wights to deal with.

2. Operation Wight Ambush. Same thing but have the people chained to a pair of bolts set in the ground (make sure they can't get ripped out). Attack the fortress in a flashy way, maybe even the above. Have the Wights be chained so that there are two groups, each member of each group has a 45ft. chain connecting them to the bolt. The bolts are set 105 ft. apart so that the Wights cannot reach a 5ft. area between them. Have the enemy chase you through the two groups of wights, which will rise up and attack. Because the enemy don't know about the safe spot they will likely follow you right into the ambush, especially if you hide the whole thing with a large fog spell. The enemy will lose some of their members, creating a chain wight reaction that will kill at least quite a few of them and likely all of the ones in the ambush. Now that there is a large group of Wights on the loose sneak to the fortress' water supply and poison it, and possibly their food. This will drive them out of the fortress and into the Wights.

3. You could also swap out the above with vampire spawn, which are stronger and less likely to get wiped out.

4. Capture some more of the enemy and give them the plague before giving them back. If needed do horrible things to some of them in plain sight to inspire the enemy leader to negotiate for them. Demand gold in return for their return, and then watch as they get wiped.

5. Hire a wizard to create a shadocalypse with Command Undead.




Go tell the elves that the goblins are doing bad things? If your good your pretty much left with "walk in and start killing things" with the goal of fighting in narrow halls where the enemy can't use their numbers or spells effectively.

There are several variations of the Wightpocaplypse I've been toying with. They're all pretty effective, but I'd rather stay away from anything stronger cause when all is said and done I'm responsible for the clean-up (killing all the wights that weren't killed by Andgan's forces) and that could be a lot.

I still don't quite follow how poison/disease is evil but marching in and slaughtering them all with my weapons isn't, but you're right; I'll probably just have to accept the alignment change to N.

Is there a roll or save to see whether you change alignment or not?

Or, is there any way, save Atonement, to return to NG afterwards?

Additionally, how to I explain this to the LG party members after, or, better yet, Andgan's grand-kids, one of which is exalted? It's not quite worth the effort to take him down if my own party kills me after.

EDIT: On top of it all, the save for Command Undead if I cast it is only DC 18. With the average Wight possessing a +5 Will, how can I guarantee it's effectiveness. Can you Diplomance an Undead, cause a Wight would probably enjoy the thought of several hundred to several thousand followers?

Considering I need to clean-up after, does the act of a Wight conversting others into Wights consititue it rising in HD?

Thanks

Knaight
2011-02-09, 12:03 PM
I still don't quite follow how poison/disease is evil but marching in and slaughtering them all with my weapons isn't, but you're right; I'll probably just have to accept the alignment change to N.

Play your character as you see fit, and ignore alignment. As far as poison being evil, that is the official D&D suggestion, but plenty of people ignore it. I personally consider the whole "poison is inherently evil" argument intellectually vacant and would never have an issue with poison use unless it was of the sort that causes civilian casualties or some such.

Toliudar
2011-02-09, 01:11 PM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:
1)Find a level 13 Druid (it'll cost you an extra 70 gold for every level higher)
2)Pay it a mere 910 gold to cast Summon Nature's Ally VII (Djinni)
3)You have 13 rounds to politely ask it to cast Major Creation
4)Use Major Creation to create as much Black Lotus Extract as possible (Bring buckets)
5) The Djinni can create up to 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract (Contact, DC 20, 3d6 Con, 3d6 Con). This poison has a permanent duration, because vegetable matter created by Djinni is permanent.

Unfortunately, Major Creation (as a spell or a SLA) takes 10 minutes to cast. If you can find a way to call a Djinni to do this over and over again, you might be able to make this work.

Since "can see the future" is plot armour, not a mechanical ability, the first and only important step is determining whether Sir Chivalry wants this to happen. If he happy with it proceeding, you don't need to worry about the future vision getting in the way. If he doesn't want it to proceed, the future vision kicks in. It kind of is that simple.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-02-09, 02:21 PM
Unfortunately, Major Creation (as a spell or a SLA) takes 10 minutes to cast. If you can find a way to call a Djinni to do this over and over again, you might be able to make this work.

Since "can see the future" is plot armour, not a mechanical ability, the first and only important step is determining whether Sir Chivalry wants this to happen. If he happy with it proceeding, you don't need to worry about the future vision getting in the way. If he doesn't want it to proceed, the future vision kicks in. It kind of is that simple.

Actual mechanics actually. Prophet ability from DMG II. Permanent Foresight, Augury 1/week.