Fixes for Casters

[Silva Stormrage]

Hello, I am working on a new campaign and would like the Playground's opinion on these fixes for casters in 3.5 D&D. Everyone knows that magic in 3.5 is completely and utterly broken because of its versatility and ability to do everything non casters can do better.

Please Note I do not plan to implement all these fixes at once I would probably adjust which ones I do through the input here.

Fix 1: Limit Spells per Day: Characters would only get one spell of each level a day. (Spontaneous Casters such as sorcerer's get 2 a day for each level) Most of their spells would now come from their casting stat and this would limit how often the caster is allowed to completely own combat. With this system focused specialist would be banned and specialist wizards would still gain 1 extra slot.
Pros: Limits the number of times a caster can destroy combat
Cons: They still destroy combat, wands are now really valuable.

Fix 2: Longer cast times: All spells now take 1 round to cast, quicken and rapid spell are banned. Now casters need to be defended in order to get off their super powerful spells.
Pros: Gives melee a purpose and are needed by the party. Casters can now lose spells and need to think about what they are casting.
Cons: Out of combat casters still dominate.

Fix 3 (more of a fix for wizard): Limit spells known. This has less to do with casters and more to do with wizards in general. One thing I always disliked about the wizard is that it can learn any number of spells and learns a bunch of spells just for free. This fix would remove the 2 spells per level a wizard gains and force him to get all his spells through scrolls. While at low level this doesn't affect much, 12 gp scrolls are pretty cheap, at higher levels this can eat into his WBL.
Pros: Limits spells known.
Cons: If run with magic mart it really doesn't limit spells known.

Thank you for reading and please tell me what you think.

[Lans]

You could use the variant magic classes, from Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum, and Warlock from Complete Arcane and Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic

[Zuljita]

I'm a fan of the beguiler style approach to casters: very limited lists.
As far as your suggestions, the 1 per day approach just seems to take it a step too far. especially at early levels.
Longer cast times could work though, It might be interesting to take the idea a step further and take full round spells to 2 round spells with a move on round 2? Perhaps the mage declares he is casting x spell at the start of round 1 and gets to target during round 2 when the cast goes off?

[NichG]

For Arcane casters, what about limiting them to one school? Within that school they dominate, but they're not quite so batman.

You'd have to remove Wish and Limited Wish, and move a lot of spells out of Conjuration (which can pretty much emulate any school). Similarly Shades, Shadow Conjuration, etc, which can be used to emulate other schools. Gate and Shapechange can be broken even if its just 1/day, so you probably want to do something about restricting or nerfing those spells (at least forbid Assume Supernatural Ability).

For non-arcane, this'd be harder (on the players) since their spell lists aren't organized by school.

[0Megabyte]

Take a look at Tome of Battle, and use that for inspiration. Of course, WotC already did that: look at 4E and tell me it isn't descended in part from the evolving mechanics in ToM (primitive encounter powers in the Binder's "once every five rounds" abilities, and the maneuvers of ToB. )

They were totally experimenting for 4E with those, I believe.

[Otodetu]

The best fix for casters is to limit the worst offenders socially, and limiting the level of the champaign to below level 12, playing at 8 to 10 is the most enjoyable in my experience.

Learn how to think like a caster yourself, and don't allow expanded spells unless you understand the implication the new spell can have on your world.

Roleplay and don't roll-play.

[Reynard]

If you're having trouble with the core casters breaking your game, and you're having this trouble a lot, just cut them out and replace them with the 3 specialized casters (War Mage, Beguiler, Dread Necro) + homebrew of the other schools.

Those three are perfectly reasonable, and while they're powerful they aren't game-destroying.

[JaronK]

Not all casters are equal. The problem is Wizards, Druids, Clerics, Archivists, Sorcerers, Favored Souls, Psions, etc. It's not so much Beguilers and Dread Necromancers, and it's definitely not Warmages or Healers. So, plan your fixes accordingly.

Also, the MOST game breaking stuff is out of combat spells. Elongating cast times actually ends up encouraging your players to look more at out of combat spells and that's where things get REALLY bad.

JaronK

[Dimers]

Fixes 1 and 3 will lead to much more desire for UMD.

[Tvtyrant]

My fix is to eliminate the distinction between arcane and divine magic and make casters that get to cast like a none-specialized wizard from only one school. So you get all of the transmutation spells from Druids, Clerics, wizards, etc. Then I move a lot of spells into other schools, such as all healing spells going into Necromancy. Druid and Cleric actually add a lot of spells to Evocation, though they are still just blasty spells.

[Kansaschaser]

My solution as a DM has always been to add Gestalt classes.

If I have 5 players and they played...

1. Fighter
2. Wizard
3. Rogue
4. Cleric
5. Bard

Then I would add these gestalt classes in as a bonus to even things out.

1. Fighter - Gets Wizard, Druid, or Sorcerer.
2. Wizard - Gets Fighter, Monk, or Swashbuckler.
3. Rogue - Gets Wu Jen, Favored Soul, or Psion.
4. Cleric - Gets Monk, Ninja, or Knight.
5. Bard - Gets Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade.

[JaronK]

What also works is just eliminating T1 and T2 entirely. Instead of Wizards you have Factotums who still have the same list but are far more balanced. Instead of Sorcerers you have Warmages, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks... they get the job done. Crusaders and Healers replace Clerics and Favored Souls, while Wild Shape Variant Rangers replace Druids.

Works really well, and it's nice and easy.

JaronK

[Dead_Jester]

What also works is just eliminating T1 and T2 entirely. Instead of Wizards you have Factotums who still have the same list but are far more balanced. Instead of Sorcerers you have Warmages, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks... they get the job done. Crusaders and Healers replace Clerics and Favored Souls, while Wild Shape Variant Rangers replace Druids.

Works really well, and it's nice and easy.

JaronK

Plus, this makes it possible to make the game challenging without making it lazertag or having to jump through dozens of hoops to make sure the casters can't be gods.

[Endarire]

Caster Side
Most caster "quick" nerfs fail to account for the backlash it creates.

That is, the spells are still just as powerful.

Second, how would you feel if your favorite class or concept were nerfed "for the sake of balance?" It's happened repeatedly to me mid-game and It Bloody Sucks. Thus, how do your rules improve fun for the PCs, especially the ones getting nerfed?

Limiting Wizards to just one school means you have Transmuters (for buffs and some gishes) and Conjurers (for everything else).

Increasing cast times for spells only matters in time-sensitive situations. This is mostly combat. Turning teleport into a 1 minute cast may matter. Turning stone shape into a 1 minute cast probably won't.

If you're dead set on increasing casting times, keep blasting spells as-is. That way, blasters can feel special.

Reducing spell slots also screams, "BE MORE EFFICIENT!" Instead of preparing 'interesting' spells just in case, it means casters will be more inclined to prepare the same few spells that made you want to nerf casters in the first place!

Reserve feats, if allowed, supposedly still work as-is.

And with fewer spell slots per caster, Artificers/Magic item creators and the comsumables they produce become a lot more powerful. Now, a caster using Evard's black tentacles to win the fight is still potent, but I'm probably more concerned about a Blastificer using a heavily metamagicked enervation or ray of stupidity or scorching ray.

Sure, that wand of CL7 scorching ray has a market price of 10,500G. With only Extraordinary Artisan (-25%) and the crafting discount (-50%), that's 2625G (additive discount) or 3937.5G (multiplicative discount) to win, say, 10 encounters, or between 265 and 400G per encounter. See The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0) for full details.

A L7 character should be making a significant profit at those rates, assuming average treasure (2600G per encounter) and 4-5 party members.

And that's conservative.

On the other hand, if said Artificer went for a CL7 wand of Evard's black tentacles- 21,000G market price- he could feasibly win encounters with 1 or 2 charges. With discounts, he's spending 5250G or 7875G per wand, but he comes out ahead. He spends only 210 or 315G per encounter and he still wins.

Non-Caster Side
This is why I'm in favor of slightly reworking spells (alter self and company especially) and buffing non-casters. For example, encourage everyone to use Tome of Battle. Let maneuvers work with all physical ranged attacks and Eldritch Blast. Give everyone Power Attack and Combat Expertise. Let full attacking (with or without charging) be a standard action. Let charging be a standard action. Make iterative attacks +0/-5/-5/-5.

Using just these rules will make physical combat more fun and powerful. Maybe your casters will feel more threatened.

[erikun]

One thing I like to do when looking at changes is to ask myself this: Would I enjoy playing the resulting characters? Would the change give the result we were hoping for?

Fix 1: Limit Spells per Day
I'm seeing two ways of reading this. Either a 20th level wizard is limited to a grand total of 10 spells each day, or the same wizard gets their standard spell slots but can only prepare a single spell for each spell level. The first does not sound like fun at all, and basically destroys anyone who relies on spellcasting by making them unable to have a meaningful impact beyond one or two rounds each day.

The second would force most spellcasters to use their most versatile spells for all their spell slots. Shapeshift, Shadow Conjuration, and so on. This doesn't seem terribly fun, and more importantly, it doesn't seem to resolve the problem - casters are still casting their best spells, they just need to rely on their best gimmicks. There is also the fact that no caster will prepare Greater Magic Weapon when doing so locks them out of casting any other useful 3rd/4th level spell.

Fix 2: Longer cast times
This seems workable enough, beyond specific spells like Feather Fall or Dimension Door which are intended to be reactionary. Beyond that, how many people have ever had a spell fail due to a failed Concentration check? It also seems to destroy the already-poor healing spells, as now the cleric risks taking damage and losing the spell along with it coming one round too late.

I certainly wouldn't mind this, although the constant bookkeeping of which spell I was casting each round might get annoying.

Fix 3: Limit spells known
Having played a couple of wizards in 3.5e, I can say that "enforce the GP expense of new spells" and "don't hand out spellbooks like water" will restrict the number of spells a wizard knows far better than any solution like these. Remember to strictly enforce the 100 GP per page expense and don't allow tricks like Secret Page to write in spellbooks for free. That 12 GP low-level scroll doesn't seem so cheap anymore, does it?

Don't give them dozens of friendly wizards eager to allow scribing from their spellbooks, either.

Anyways, the limited spells doesn't really change much. At worst, the wizard will simply learn only the best spells each level to put into their spellbook - much as they would if money is the limiting factor. I wouldn't mind playing a wizard that didn't get their default two-spells-at-levelup, although I would want some kind of guarantee that I can get some new spells each level. Playing a 10th level wizard still relying on Magic Missile is boring.

Also, there is one other problem with this solution. Wizards can write new spellbooks, can lose old spellbooks, can give away spellbooks and can find (and memorize out of) new spellbooks. There is not any logical reason that, having scribed Fireball into my last spellbook that got destroyed, that my character is mentally unable to understand the Lightning Bolt spell to scribe it into his new spellbook.

[Silva Stormrage]

One thing I like to do when looking at changes is to ask myself this: Would I enjoy playing the resulting characters? Would the change give the result we were hoping for?

Fix 1: Limit Spells per Day
I'm seeing two ways of reading this. Either a 20th level wizard is limited to a grand total of 10 spells each day, or the same wizard gets their standard spell slots but can only prepare a single spell for each spell level. The first does not sound like fun at all, and basically destroys anyone who relies on spellcasting by making them unable to have a meaningful impact beyond one or two rounds each day.

The second would force most spellcasters to use their most versatile spells for all their spell slots. Shapeshift, Shadow Conjuration, and so on. This doesn't seem terribly fun, and more importantly, it doesn't seem to resolve the problem - casters are still casting their best spells, they just need to rely on their best gimmicks. There is also the fact that no caster will prepare Greater Magic Weapon when doing so locks them out of casting any other useful 3rd/4th level spell.

Fix 2: Longer cast times
This seems workable enough, beyond specific spells like Feather Fall or Dimension Door which are intended to be reactionary. Beyond that, how many people have ever had a spell fail due to a failed Concentration check? It also seems to destroy the already-poor healing spells, as now the cleric risks taking damage and losing the spell along with it coming one round too late.

I certainly wouldn't mind this, although the constant bookkeeping of which spell I was casting each round might get annoying.

Fix 3: Limit spells known
Having played a couple of wizards in 3.5e, I can say that "enforce the GP expense of new spells" and "don't hand out spellbooks like water" will restrict the number of spells a wizard knows far better than any solution like these. Remember to strictly enforce the 100 GP per page expense and don't allow tricks like Secret Page to write in spellbooks for free. That 12 GP low-level scroll doesn't seem so cheap anymore, does it?

Don't give them dozens of friendly wizards eager to allow scribing from their spellbooks, either.

Anyways, the limited spells doesn't really change much. At worst, the wizard will simply learn only the best spells each level to put into their spellbook - much as they would if money is the limiting factor. I wouldn't mind playing a wizard that didn't get their default two-spells-at-levelup, although I would want some kind of guarantee that I can get some new spells each level. Playing a 10th level wizard still relying on Magic Missile is boring.

Also, there is one other problem with this solution. Wizards can write new spellbooks, can lose old spellbooks, can give away spellbooks and can find (and memorize out of) new spellbooks. There is not any logical reason that, having scribed Fireball into my last spellbook that got destroyed, that my character is mentally unable to understand the Lightning Bolt spell to scribe it into his new spellbook.
Wow a lot of replies. I will try to get to all of them :smalleek:.

You misunderstand the first one. I mean that instead of a wizard getting lets say 5 first level spells + bonus spells for int at lvl 20 he would get 1 + Bonus spells for int. Just limiting the amount of spells per day really.


For the second you raise a good point. Spells that are immediate actions are probably good as is, who would ever cast a one round feather fall :smallbiggrin:. You raise a good point with healing too. If I end up using this I would probably have to think carefully about the spells I increase to one round casts. Also a concentration check is pretty heavy if hit with a direct melee hit with power attack.

Hm, I am relatively new to DND only running in 3 campaigns and I only have played one with a wizard. The DM did allow the whole secret page and unlimited spell books lying around and magic mart, so the player's spell list got out of control.





Non-Caster Side
This is why I'm in favor of slightly reworking spells (alter self and company especially) and buffing non-casters. For example, encourage everyone to use Tome of Battle. Let maneuvers work with all physical ranged attacks and Eldritch Blast. Give everyone Power Attack and Combat Expertise. Let full attacking (with or without charging) be a standard action. Let charging be a standard action. Make iterative attacks +0/-5/-5/-5.

Using just these rules will make physical combat more fun and powerful. Maybe your casters will feel more threatened.



I actually would prefer to just increase other classes instead of nerfing spell casters. The problem is there are just soooo many spells to nerf and remove, Alter self line, Celerity line, Wish/Miarcle/Reality Revision, Planar Binding Line, and these are just the basic ones that everyone knows are broken.

I do like the iterative attacks idea and already implement the standard action full attack (never got why it wasn't a standard action before)

[Endarire]

A Compromise
A compromise for Wizard and Archivist free spell spells learned:

-Give them free spells as normal if these spells are spell level 5 or below. Anything else requires a DM handout (scroll/spellbook/another caster) or personal research.

-Be true to your word when you promise your players access to new spells.

My Experience
I've played Wizards who, due to restricted spell access, were effectively prepared, INT-based Sorcerers.

It can work, but I felt so cramped in my spell selection. I chose to be a Wizard (instead of a Psion or similar) because I wanted to have a broad selection of spells.

I just used my free spell picks to nab the very best spells and repeatedly cast those.

At some point, you should be trying to pad a PC Wizard's spellbook to encourage them to use spells beside their very best.

Having secret page learn every spell in the game is, alone, a minor problem. You're effectively spending spell slots to do what every standard Cleric and Druid has already, meaning complete access to their spell list. A Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane 48) gets a milder version of this already.

Knowing more Wizard spells doesn't necessasrily means he can cast more of them per day. A Wizard's most potent spells are the ones he prepares and casts, not the ones he doesn't.

[Silva Stormrage]

A Compromise
A compromise for Wizard and Archivist free spell spells learned:

-Give them free spells as normal if these spells are spell level 5 or below. Anything else requires a DM handout (scroll/spellbook/another caster) or personal research.

-Be true to your word when you promise your players access to new spells.

My Experience
I've played Wizards who, due to restricted spell access, were effectively prepared, INT-based Sorcerers.

It can work, but I felt so cramped in my spell selection. I chose to be a Wizard (instead of a Psion or similar) because I wanted to have a broad selection of spells.

I just used my free spell picks to nab the very best spells and repeatedly cast those.

At some point, you should be trying to pad a PC Wizard's spellbook to encourage them to use spells beside their very best.

Having secret page learn every spell in the game is, alone, a minor problem. You're effectively spending spell slots to do what every standard Cleric and Druid has already, meaning complete access to their spell list. A Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane 48) gets a milder version of this already.

Knowing more Wizard spells doesn't necessasrily means he can cast more of them per day. A Wizard's most potent spells are the ones he prepares and casts, not the ones he doesn't.


Hmmm that does seem like a more reasonable fix instead of a blanket statement "No you have to find all your spells". The one hesistation I have with that is that my players really like to be one trick ponies that rely on one spell and once that stops working someone dies. Though thats more of something I need to work out with them out of game :smallbiggrin:.


For those saying to just ban the top tier and replace them with the Beguiler, Dread Necro and Warmage, does anyone know of good homebrew for the other schools? Also one of my players really likes druid, does anyone have a good homebrew for it?

[Curmudgeon]

I like a layered set of remedies, as follows:

There's no rolling for any part of character level gain. (This is a good thing in general, even if you're playing without magic at all.) Adjust the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but really: just skip characters this weak. :smallsigh:
This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.
There are no metamagic cost reducers of any kind, and certainly no "free" metamagic (ex: Incantatrix).
Beyond those spells that a class gets for free, spell access is limited. Wizards have free choice of 2 spells per level, and everything else is hard to get. The same goes for Sorcerers who want to swap out spells. Scrolls are 1/10th as common in treasure, and the costs for buying scrolls on the rare occasion that they're offered for sale are 5x as high as in standard rules. Finding someone who will allow copying their spellbook is rare, and the fees are at minimum 10x as high. Even finding out the name of a particular spell that will accomplish some desired aim can involve a quest for a spellcasting character, because magical knowledge is hoarded.
Finally, individual spells are scrutinized. For instance, the whole Alter Self-Polymorph-Shapechange line is dependent on knowing about particular forms, and those spells do not incorporate the various Monster Manuals. A spellcaster has to follow the standard skill rules:

They've got to Spot a creature of a particular type.
They've got to make the associated Knowledge check to know what type of creature it is.
Only then will the character know about that form; player knowledge of monsters is metagaming. :smallmad: Similarly, the power of the Shatter spell is dependent on the meaning of "solid", and any DM who lets a player get away with the anachronistic "neither liquid nor gas" chemical definition instead of "rigid, not flexible" should have Jello dumped in their pants. :smallyuk: Enlarge Person increases the weight of a character and their gear by a factor of 8, so they'll be stronger but (usually) slowed down by encumbrance. Scrutiny is important to keep spells from being abused.

[Silva Stormrage]

I like a layered set of remedies, as follows:

There's no rolling for any part of character level gain. (This is a good thing in general, even if you're playing without magic at all.) Adjust the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but really: just skip characters this weak. :smallsigh:
This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.
There are no metamagic cost reducers of any kind, and certainly no "free" metamagic (ex: Incantatrix).
Beyond those spells that a class gets for free, spell access is limited. Wizards have free choice of 2 spells per level, and everything else is hard to get. The same goes for Sorcerers who want to swap out spells. Scrolls are 1/10th as common in treasure, and the costs for buying scrolls on the rare occasion that they're offered for sale are 5x as high as in standard rules. Finding someone who will allow copying their spellbook is rare, and the fees are at minimum 10x as high. Even finding out the name of a particular spell that will accomplish some desired aim can involve a quest for a spellcasting character, because magical knowledge is hoarded.
Finally, individual spells are scrutinized. For instance, the whole Alter Self-Polymorph-Shapechange line is dependent on knowing about particular forms, and those spells do not incorporate the various Monster Manuals. A spellcaster has to follow the standard skill rules:

They've got to Spot a creature of a particular type.
They've got to make the associated Knowledge check to know what type of creature it is.
Only then will the character know about that form; player knowledge of monsters is metagaming. :smallmad: Similarly, the power of the Shatter spell is dependent on the meaning of "solid", and any DM who lets a player get away with the anachronistic "neither liquid nor gas" chemical definition instead of "rigid, not flexible" should have Jello dumped in their pants. :smallyuk: Enlarge Person increases the weight of a character and their gear by a factor of 8, so they'll be stronger but (usually) slowed down by encumbrance. Scrutiny is important to keep spells from being abused.


Wow.... this is... really really good. :smalleek:
Hmmm I really like these changes. Also I never noticed the enlarge person increasing weight :smallbiggrin:.
I don't really have much to comment except that this is a really good fix.

[Endarire]

Balance
In D&D, there are 2 types of balance:

Interparty Balance
As a GM, I assume you want to tell a compelling story and empower your players to feel Uber. A weak team or team member is asking for trouble if you went the "logical" route and said, "Powerful people are smart and logically defended and not just bigger chunks of easy XP."

By default, I assume each D&D player wants to be a meaningful part of the game. (If not, other rules apply.) I also tell players how the game works in practice (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10886.0).

Setting Balance
The PCs are usually meant to be the Main Characters. (Capitalizing Main Characters is mandatory in this case.)

As Main Characters, they do things that typical people wouldn't. They get glorious opportunities to be fantastic, instead of staying at home, tending farms, and being subject to 'common' rules (like taxes).

As GM, you must decide when making your campaign setting what magic effects you allow and how common they are! The default rules present an invincible archmage (or Archmage) taking control of a plane by manipulating or killing its leaders in a day or less.

A Cleric9 can cast plane shift. I encourage your plots to lead your PCs off-plane at this point for continuity's sake.

Also, the XP rules are ludicrous. The game assumes that you'll face about 14 level-appropriate challenges to gain a level, and an average of 4 challenges per day. Even if you face 1 such challenge a day, and you need 14 challenges to level, then you can gain 2 levels per month and be level 20- a virtual demigod- within 9 months.

Ladies, how would you feel if your boyfriend or husband impregnated you when he was an ordinary man, left you for 9 months, then returned as one of the most powerful men in the universe?

That's expected in D&D 3.5.

This is one reason why I award levels based on the plot.

Problem Spells and Abilities
See Dirty Handbook Fixes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3288.0).

[Endarire]

Silva:
What spells irk you most? Even the specialist class casters like Dread Necromancer can get "problem" spells, like animate dead.

Consider what effectds you want in the game and their ease of access before you start blanket bans.

For example, saying "casters must make appropriate Knowledge checks to know their polymorph forms" is logical, but hurts a Sorcerer while barely affecting a Wizard. One of my DMs tried this and I simply had enough INT and Knowledge ranks that his house rules didn't matter.

[Curmudgeon]

For example, saying "casters must make appropriate Knowledge checks to know their polymorph forms" is logical, but hurts a Sorcerer while barely affecting a Wizard.
That's only the second part of knowing about creature types. The first, and more difficult, part is finding such a creature in the first place to observe it in action. Alter Self isn't about abstract knowledge, but rather personal experience: you're adopting the form and its characteristics, not reciting a list of traits from memory.

[Elric VIII]

I like Curmudgeon's list as well, but there are a few things that bother me, mostly with the point buy.

First, it assumes you're optimizing, so be careful when you make your Conjuration/Transmutation-banning Evoker have only 15 points. Pretty much every one of their spells allow saves so they will want have 17 Int, 10 Con and 8 everything else. This isn't a problem for someone that summons BSFs and bogs down enemies in grease/tentacles/fog, but with the Evoker's little or no BFC, they will be dying every other encounter.

Second, the class really matters. Tier 1 classes are not all equal. Cleric is much more MAD than a Druid because he needs Wis for casting, Cha or Str for melee, and Con, since he's on the front lines. A Druid, however, can use use Wildshape to make up for low physical scores and he wastes fewer rounds than a Cleric that relies on buffs, especially with the removal of DMM Persist (not that I'm arguing in favor of DMM).

Lastly, limiting the Arcane casters' access to spells is not too hard, but how do you put that same limit on the Divine casters without making them all Favored Soul or Shugenja (thus removing them for Tier 1 territory)?

[Bibliomancer]

Lastly, limiting the Arcane casters' access to spells is not too hard, but how do you put that same limit on the Divine casters without making them all Favored Soul or Shugenja (thus removing them for Tier 1 territory)?

I ran into a suggestion recently on these forums that I really liked, which was to make all primary casting classes a dual spontaneous/prepared combination (sorcerer and wizard share the same spell list anyways). Thus, favored souls are spontaneous, while prophets must memorize and recite scripture. Druids must study at henges, while wild ones listen to the music of the leaves. Minstrels hold a few melodies in the core of their being, while heralds consult tomes of verse for the appropriate rhyme for the situation.

[Elric VIII]

I ran into a suggestion recently on these forums that I really liked, which was to make all primary casting classes a dual spontaneous/prepared combination (sorcerer and wizard share the same spell list anyways). Thus, favored souls are spontaneous, while prophets must memorize and recite scripture. Druids must study at henges, while wild ones listen to the music of the leaves. Minstrels hold a few melodies in the core of their being, while heralds consult tomes of verse for the appropriate rhyme for the situation.

That's a good idea.

I just realized that Archivist can be a good replacement, along with a Druid-variant Archivist, as well.

[Endarire]

I assumed polymorph et al gave you the knowledge of how to use your abilities. You only had to know which form to assume.

As GM, it makes things easier. I need not try to recall which creatures the party's faced, instead letting them use a Knowledge check for familiarity.

I also keep in mind optimal polymorph forms (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10479.0).

[JaronK]

That's only the second part of knowing about creature types. The first, and more difficult, part is finding such a creature in the first place to observe it in action. Alter Self isn't about abstract knowledge, but rather personal experience: you're adopting the form and its characteristics, not reciting a list of traits from memory.

Spells like Summon Monster and Lesser Planar Binding kinda remove this restriction, especially if the caster in question is an Outsider already (in which case even Alter Self is unrestricted)

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

Spells like Summon Monster and Lesser Planar Binding kinda remove this restriction
Yes, those spells will give the caster a chance to see particular creature types in action. As I've already pointed out, limiting spell availability and scrutinizing each spell is also important. That's why my attempt at controlling spellcaster power is a layered approach.

[navar100]

Hello, I am working on a new campaign and would like the Playground's opinion on these fixes for casters in 3.5 D&D. Everyone knows that magic in 3.5 is completely and utterly broken because of its versatility and ability to do everything non casters can do better.


No, 3.5 magic is not "completely and utterly broken". There is no crime for a player character to be powerful. Spellcasters cast spells. See what spells are the problem. Divine Power is a major issue for some people. Get rid of it. Divine Metamagic causes problems with some people. Get rid of it. Better to get rid of one troublesome spell and a feat than a whole class.

Improve the warrior's lot.

Allow more than one attack when moving more than 5ft, say 5ft per iteration. For example, if you have +11/+6/+1, you can move 15ft and still full attack. Limit this to only warriors and rogue. House rule feat allowing no AoO for that movement through a threatened area, Mobility as a prerequisite.

No losing speed when wearing heavy armor.

Use Tome of Battle.

Pathfinder did a good job improving the warrior classes without having to gut spellcasters. Barbarians can do more stuff while raging. Fighters get bons=uses and don't suck for wearing heavy armor. Paladins get better smiting. Monks can flurry without missing.

Some spells were nerfed but not to uselessness. Polymorphing was changed so that your starting Strength and Dexterity matters.

[NichG]

Non-casters really need more non-combat versatility to keep up. The only thing I've found that really matches and exceeds D&D caster versatility is 'themed dynamic powers'. That is, things that can be used to do anything in-theme for them, with a scaling level of cosmic-ness.

E.g. a 'Cutting' theme would go from cutting cords, tendons, etc to cutting a hole in reality to cutting fate (in its thread-like metaphor).

An ice theme goes from making drinks cold to Fimbulwintering the world to freezing fire, air, words, time, and other such things as seen in the 2ed Plane of Ice.

[Endarire]

Consider my house rules (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10597.0).

[Psyborg]

What also works is just eliminating T1 and T2 entirely. Instead of Wizards you have Factotums who still have the same list but are far more balanced. Instead of Sorcerers you have Warmages, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks... they get the job done. Crusaders and Healers replace Clerics and Favored Souls, while Wild Shape Variant Rangers replace Druids.

Works really well, and it's nice and easy.

JaronK (My emphasis.)

This. With the exception of one blaster psion* in one campaign a while ago, nobody in my group plays casters. We haven't banned them or replaced them with anything per se, they just...don't get played.

We all chip in for Wands of Lesser Vigor (and usually an Eternal Wand of Mass Greater Vigor at some point), stick a scroll or two of raise dead in the Haversack, and don't worry about remove disease/remove curse/regeneration/heal/dispel evil/remove poison/break enchantment/remove fear until we really, really need them. At which point we blame each other for not having them, limp back to the nearest magic mart, and go on a scroll-shopping spree :smallbiggrin:

This approach inevitably leads not having a clue what the haul from the dragon's hoard is, and at times when going to Magic Mart to pay for identifys isn't practical within the current storyline, and we all kinda need to be able to use the goodies to be able to survive the next set of encounters. The usual fudge is to allow detect magic, a few minutes, and a sufficiently high Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) check to substitute for identify. There's usually somebody playing a Cha-based class- bard, crusader, X Stat to Y mono-Cha-dependent melee character, something- so Magic-Blooded template SLAs are quite common, and items of detect magic are quite cheap and useful for checking for (some) magic traps anyway.)

On the whole, though, just...ignoring the standard casters works pretty darned well balance-wise. If a player actually wants to play a wizard, though...yeah, go with one of the specialist casters, like JaronK said.


*Footnote: For those not familiar with psionics, a basic Kineticist psion is a better blaster than a core caster, but nowhere close to a Mailman due to no metapsionics reducers and only one metapsi feat per power due to psionic focus. His advantage is primarily flexibility- getting to pick his energy damage type freely- and Energy Missile, because autohit missiles are sexy.

[erikun]

You misunderstand the first one. I mean that instead of a wizard getting lets say 5 first level spells + bonus spells for int at lvl 20 he would get 1 + Bonus spells for int.

If I end up using this I would probably have to think carefully about the spells I increase to one round casts. Also a concentration check is pretty heavy if hit with a direct melee hit with power attack.

Hm, I am relatively new to DND only running in 3 campaigns and I only have played one with a wizard. The DM did allow the whole secret page and unlimited spell books lying around and magic mart, so the player's spell list got out of control.
In the first case, I would not recommend it. If you've heard rumors about the "15-minute workday", it involves the wizard casting Rope Trick/Magnificent Mansion once they have used all their important spells, and rest for 24 hours in nearly complete safety to regain spells. All the first suggestion does is push casters towards the 15-minute workday solution. Spellcasters who do not use such shenanigans are severely limited, as there is far less they can do before they are stuck resorting to using a crossbow.

At that point, it would make more sense for one player to have a "PC" wizard buff the party, then stay at home while they use another character.

The second is decent, although note that it primarily only affects blaster wizards (or something like Beguilers). Clerics generally buff and heal, and the "Batman Wizard" will be summoning - already a full round action - while invisible and flying 10' off the floor, thus effectively immune to attacks anyways.

As for the third, enforcing the money requirement will remove the abuse. You can use some excuse such as "The 100 gold is to create magical properities of the page which allows a Wizard to memorize the spell. Simply copying the page, as with Secret Page, does not transfer the magical properities and does not allow the Wizard to memorize the printed spell correctly."



15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but really: just skip characters this weak. :smallsigh:

I'm not a big fan of this (popularly recommended) solution, as it assumes high optimization for all characters. I can build a very poor Wizard, and have occasionally for thematic reasons - I would not enjoy being saddled with 17 INT as my only meaningful stat. Conversely, it is rather hard to build a poor Druid or Warblade accidentally.

The other points seem like good ideas. I prefer Wizards/Archivists not learning spells for free upon leveling (which is how it was done back in AD&D), but still making scrolls/spellbooks as common as normal. I can understand wanting to be sure you got a specific spell as a spellcaster, though.