[Shadowrun 4ed]Mage optimization

[Vallum]

Simply put, a group, (consisting so far with a gun adept, inflitration specialist, and a hacker), needs a mage. Now, I've been skimming over streetmagic and core, but I'm still pretty new to magic, (in the past, I played street samurai mostly).
So far, I really liked the Buddhist tradition of magic, (pg. 36 of streetmagic). Those who don't have it, its basically
Combat: Air
Detection: Guidance
Health: Earth
Illusion: Fire
Manipulation: Water
Drain: Willpower+Intuition

I have 500 bp to work with, and so far, I only have my attributes figured out, (human metatype btw)
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 5
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Essence 6
Initiative: 8
Magic: 5

For spells thus far, I've been thinking Heal, Manabolt (direct), Stunbolt, and maybe improved invisibility (Realistic, Single).

Otherwise, I have no idea what I'm doing with magic. Gear, spells, Foci... Any help would be appreciated :)

[Swordguy]

What's the current optimization level of the group? How many dice are they rolling for their "primary" skills (like longarms for a Street Sam, or Hacking for a Decker)?

There's normally a 200-ish BP limit for starting attributes. Has that been removed in this game (which isn't uncommon, but worth checking upon)?

What is the focus of the team? Are you guys a team of "quiet professionals", "street punks with guns", "The A-Team", "Neo and the Matrix Crew"...? You need to tailor your spells to how the group will operate?

Any house rules? EVERY SR game has house rules somewhere, even if it's just to stop the "technically" legal setup of the Troll starting with a 44 Ballistic armor rating. Is your GM applying the suggested 20-dice cap on any given roll?

[JaronK]

My experience is with SR3, but I've found that illusions and divination end up being what you need most if the group's playing at all how the game says things are done... when you want stealth and confusion, the ability to know more than your enemy (and for them to know things which are untrue) is amazing. This can mean divining their positions, or it can mean in the middle of combat having an illusion of a troll in full security armor spinning up a minigun as he comes around a corner to draw attention off you.

JaronK

[DeltaEmil]

Get at least alpha-grade cyberware for 1 essence point. Cybereyes, a cybercomlink and smartlink help tremendously. Cybereyes will help you snipe afar with your magic (and stuff like low-light modification, compensators, , commlinks are always practical for data-storage and communication, and smartlink helps to shoot people more reliably (cause guns are dangerous in Shadowrun).

[avr]

The by the book attribute limit is half your starting BP on mental and physical attributes. If you're starting with 500 BP the character above is well within that rule, I only see 200 BP on those stats. Personally I'd drop Agility and Strength a point each and raise Body and Reaction if you're sticking to the 200 BP limit, but whatever.

Mentor spirits are a good buy. Dunno what would be appropriate, but there's got to be one somewhere you could go with.

Levitate is a useful and appropriate spell for your mage I think. Some form of mental influence or control never goes amiss ether.

Otherwise, I second Swordguy's questions.

[Vallum]

What's the current optimization level of the group? How many dice are they rolling for their "primary" skills (like longarms for a Street Sam, or Hacking for a Decker)?

I remember the GM and other members talking about the 16 to 20 dice they roll for weapons and such, and the BF of the GM is a good optimizer from what I've observed from other games.


There's normally a 200-ish BP limit for starting attributes. Has that been removed in this game (which isn't uncommon, but worth checking upon)?

She removed that. Plus, my initial attributes are under 200 jic


What is the focus of the team? Are you guys a team of "quiet professionals", "street punks with guns", "The A-Team", "Neo and the Matrix Crew"...? You need to tailor your spells to how the group will operate?

All I've been told was that we are set in Manhattan in 2070, and the group is optimized. We have a stealth guy, a combat guy, and a hacker. So it seems pretty balanced, ready for whatever the GM will throw at us. But to throw a gander... I'd probably say 'A-team' material.


Any house rules? EVERY SR game has house rules somewhere, even if it's just to stop the "technically" legal setup of the Troll starting with a 44 Ballistic armor rating. Is your GM applying the suggested 20-dice cap on any given roll?

Not that I was told. So far, its the 500 bp start, reflecting that we've been around the woods more often then not and know what we are doing.




My experience is with SR3, but I've found that illusions and divination end up being what you need most if the group's playing at all how the game says things are done... when you want stealth and confusion, the ability to know more than your enemy (and for them to know things which are untrue) is amazing. This can mean divining their positions, or it can mean in the middle of combat having an illusion of a troll in full security armor spinning up a minigun as he comes around a corner to draw attention off you.

JaronK

When I use to play, hacking was never bothered with. Too confusing and not worth the effort.




Get at least alpha-grade cyberware for 1 essence point. Cybereyes, a cybercomlink and smartlink help tremendously. Cybereyes will help you snipe afar with your magic (and stuff like low-light modification, compensators, , commlinks are always practical for data-storage and communication, and smartlink helps to shoot people more reliably (cause guns are dangerous in Shadowrun).
Bolded for truth
Alright, I was going to ask if I should send anything for some cybereyes.. It feels so weird not having my essence at around 2, ( but thats street samurai instincts for yeah :smallbiggrin: )




The by the book attribute limit is half your starting BP on mental and physical attributes. If you're starting with 500 BP the character above is well within that rule, I only see 200 BP on those stats. Personally I'd drop Agility and Strength a point each and raise Body and Reaction if you're sticking to the 200 BP limit, but whatever.

<200bp on attributes were jic, but I wanted my character to be balanced.. and was hoping to put points in unarmed, along with the higher agility and strength, for a more shaolin/kung-fu feel that I wish I can have, even if its minor, (I wish I could do both general mage and kung-fu guy effectively)

I also found out that we don't have a limit on attributes


Mentor spirits are a good buy. Dunno what would be appropriate, but there's got to be one somewhere you could go with.

I was planning on visiting my mentor ether through astral projection or even vid chat with the comlink.


Levitate is a useful and appropriate spell for your mage I think. Some form of mental influence or control never goes amiss ether.

Will add Levitate to list.

[avr]

Just a thought, but there are some touch-range health spells with weird effects. If you're going to have Unarmed Combat but no ability to damage people with it they might be worth a look.

Mentor spirits - the advantages which generally give you +2 dice to a spell category, and +2 dice to a spirit type. Not a human who calls you Grasshopper.

BTW, I'd use astral perception when you're having lighting difficulties rather than buy cybereyes. Also I'd get Increase Reflexes and a spell lock rather than buy cyber for that.

[DeltaEmil]

Cybereyes can have vision magnifications (extremely powerful in Shadowrun 4th edition, because this helps with casting spells from really far away), vision enhancements (which gives bonus dices to perception rolls), flash compensators (and this is gonna really suck your day and spellcasting) and all the other nice stuff that also doesn't need a simple action to activate, and most importantly, you won't have to astrally perceive to target something physical in dark environment. Depending on what's lurking in astral space, you don't necessarily want to make yourself vulnerable to killer-spirits and projecting security mage-teams that can snipe you.
The benefits of cybereyes alone outweight the 1-point essence and magic loss more than enough.
Also, sustained spells give penalties, and active foci will flare up in astral space as well as alert security once you pass through a ward with it.

[avr]

Shadowrun spells don't get range penalties at all. If it has a range other than Touch or Line Of Sight, it depends on the number of successes rolled and won't get a benefit from vision mag anyway.

Flash compensators can be stuck in glasses or contacts without negatively affecting your spellcasting. Vision enhancement for bonuses to perception I'll give you, but that's just one feature & not worth a magic point for most.

You'll need to drop Increase Reflexes to pass through a ward without triggering an alarm. You can do that. If you're expecting combat immediately on the other side, you probably aren't worried about the alarm. If you're not, recast it when you're through. With a spell lock you won't take sustaining penalties.

As far as astral perception making you vulnerable goes, if there are nasty spirits about to materialise and rip your face off you probably want to know that. Another mage is a lot less immediately dangerous to you than bullets because you have counterspelling.

[Swordguy]

Shadowrun spells don't get range penalties at all. If it has a range other than Touch or Line Of Sight, it depends on the number of successes rolled and won't get a benefit from vision mag anyway.

They don't have range penalties...but they DO have penalties for environmental conditions such as fog or darkness.

[WinWin]

Shapechange is a versatile spell, great for stealth, unusual movement or close/melee combat effectiveness.

The shape x line of spells can be great for infiltration/exfiltration. Concrete or plasssteel or other common materials will allow for an easy mundane security bypass.

Illusion spells are versatile.

Barrier spells are fantastic, especially invisible ones. You could potentially box foes in, set up traffic hazards or provide your team with cover.

Mind Control such as Influence and Mob Mind have multiple uses, not just in combat. Alter Memory is also a great investment.

Mana Static penalises your spells while sustained...But is awesome when the other side has more awakened enemies at their disposal.

Turn to Goo is hard to beat in terms of combat effectiveness. Cyberware and inorganic material is unnafected by the transformation...

Levitate allows flight.

As for traditions...A possession tradition mage has the edge in melee combat. Otherwise look at the abilities of summoned spirits carefully. An esoteric or custom tradition may allow for more powerful starting abilities, but may have difficulty finding a magical group to join.

I would suggest asking if you can buy a magical group contact in order to set up advancement in the form of initiation before the game starts. At the very least they may be able to provide your character with more spells, foci or magical support in the form of ritual spellcasting.

[JaronK]

I'm confused, what did what I said have to do with hacking? I was talking about divination spells and illusion spells.

JaronK

[Vallum]

I'm confused, what did what I said have to do with hacking? I was talking about divination spells and illusion spells.

JaronK

Oh, you sounded like you were talking about the 'back when I played' talk, so I was giving my shpeel too when I used to play allot. Sorry that I didn't clarify that.

[Vallum]

So, my spells thus far


Heal, Manabolt, Stunbolt, Improved Invisibility, Levitate, Choas, Chaotic world, Armor, Mana Barrier


I'm a lil lost on foci and fetishes, and I haven't even touched spirits, (aside from the mentor spirit, I got Hornedman, +2 Illusions and guardian spirits, -1 all social tests unless person is 'as open minded as you are'). Help on both would be great. My conjuration group skill is at 3.

[avr]

You can save a few points by getting Summoning and Binding rather than the group. Banishing is distinctly worse than your manabolt/stunbolt.

Get a spell lock, IIRC rating 3 is the highest you can get at the start. They are important to have. The other foci are generally nice to have if you have points to spare, but not as important.

I wouldn't bother with fetishes, especially for a Buddhist mage - they're as much of a pain as they are useful, and you don't want unnecessary ties to the material world, right?

Since you can't summon guardian spirits, I would rethink picking Horned Man as a mentor.

[Cieyrin]

double post

You have a double post, there, guy.


Nothing to see here, move along.

[avr]

Ta, deleted double post.

[Swordguy]

So, my spells thus far


Heal, Manabolt, Stunbolt, Improved Invisibility, Levitate, Choas, Chaotic world, Armor, Mana Barrier

If you're new, it's easier to just play a spellslinger and not worry about spirits just yet. Don't feel like you HAVE to do "everything" that's possible under Magic.

As for spells...well.

You don't have an initiative enhancer - that means you're getting one action per round. Most street sams or any sort of runner above the 'street punk" level (to say nothing of the elite corp guards that are most often encountered right outside the area you need to break into) are going to have Wired Reflexes or the Bioware equivalent, which means they get two actions per round.

Thus, an equal number of NPCs will get twice as many actions per round as your party, with the added bonus of usually going first. I'm guessing you haven't yet been in a firefight against similarly-equipped adversaries. If you're representative of your party, the enemy simply has half of their squad bunker down on round 1 while the other half hits your party with suppressive fire, meaning that to get LOS to them to use your own guns and spells you run a serious risk of getting chopped down. The other half use their first action to flank your position under cover (meaning no LOS to them), and their second action that round to pop out of cover and hit you with enfilade fire. Boom, dead runners.

As in many games, quantity of actions are king in SR. You aren't that powerful, you mostly likely haven't engaged enemies of equal or greater capabilities yet. And that's OK - the best shadowruns are where you don't shoot at all; it's a stealth-based game, after all. What's more, runners generally try to engage enemies on unfair terms (with surprise, at night, with overwhelming firepower, etc), so it shouldn't be a challenge at that point, because the challenge was really in setting up the fight to be unfair in your favor in the first place.


With that said, what spells should you really take? Generally speaking, the minimum well-rounded spell list for the average SR mage includes (separated into groups of "similar ideas):

Sterilize (Street Magic) - remove any DNA traces you were there. THIS IS MANDATORY

A single-target combat spell
An AOE combat spell
A stun-damage spell (may be either of the above)
A physical-damage spell (may be either of the above)

A reflex enhancer for the vast majority of the time you're mundane instead of astral

Utility spells to taste, depending on the mage's personality and specialty (a B&E mage, for example, might have a spell that messes up surveillance equipment)
A Mana-based defense spell is also quite useful to stack onto your physical armor.


Many of these are Sustained spells (notable the Reflex enhancer and the defensive spell). Invest in a Sustaining Foci of moderate Force (3-4) as quickly as possible, so you can sustain your reflex enhancer and a decent Force (remember: the number of hits on your spell is limited by your Force, so you if you only cast it at F1, you can only get 1 hit no matter how many you actually roll).

Once you've got a Sustaining Foci or two, start looking at other stuff. Power foci are expensive, but awesome, giving you their Force rating on practically everything related to casting spells.

[Vallum]

You can save a few points by getting Summoning and Binding rather than the group. Banishing is distinctly worse than your manabolt/stunbolt.
Alrighty, changed! Totally forgot that bit.


Get a spell lock, IIRC rating 3 is the highest you can get at the start. They are important to have. The other foci are generally nice to have if you have points to spare, but not as important.
Spell lock? Is that like a sustaning foci, I didn't see anything about Spell lock... mind if you point it out?


I wouldn't bother with fetishes, especially for a Buddhist mage - they're as much of a pain as they are useful, and you don't want unnecessary ties to the material world, right?
Just was wondering if there was anything I should look at... Dunno much about fetishes in shadowrun anyway.


Since you can't summon guardian spirits, I would rethink picking Horned Man as a mentor.
Well... I just wasn't seeing much that I could give up without it bitting myself in the but to hard. The other spirit option was plant spirits, rather then guardian spirits. Now, again, idk anything about spirits, so any help with them would be great. I kinda wish I could ignore that summoning bit and get more actions, (way to used to playing street samurai, feels weird only having one action). If there was a way to fill that mage aspect of the team, but still be an awesome combat guy, I'd jump on the chance



With that said, what spells should you really take? Generally speaking, the minimum well-rounded spell list for the average SR mage includes (separated into groups of "similar ideas):

Sterilize (Street Magic) - remove any DNA traces you were there. THIS IS MANDATORY
Alright, added


A single-target combat spell
An AOE combat spell
A stun-damage spell (may be either of the above)
A physical-damage spell (may be either of the above)
Manabolt
[Dunno what to pick for AoE damage... I have Chaotic World for mass debuff]
Stunbolt
Manabolt


A reflex enhancer for the vast majority of the time you're mundane instead of astral
So enhanced reflexes with a good sustaining foci? I was thinking 2, (one for armor, the other for improved reflexes, strength 4 each? Or is that too high)


Utility spells to taste, depending on the mage's personality and specialty (a B&E mage, for example, might have a spell that messes up surveillance equipment)
Was thinking of other illusion spells. Was going to ride illusions, throwing RP of 'life is the greatest illusion, and it is up to us to understand this illusion, and overcome it', whats a better way through understanding this illusion then to bend it to your will? The closest thing I saw to fit a normal buddhist logic was a bandaid mage, and we need some more blasty-blasty, (really am wishing I could have made two characters to balance out the party's needs).


Many of these are Sustained spells (notable the Reflex enhancer and the defensive spell). Invest in a Sustaining Foci of moderate Force (3-4) as quickly as possible, so you can sustain your reflex enhancer and a decent Force (remember: the number of hits on your spell is limited by your Force, so you if you only cast it at F1, you can only get 1 hit no matter how many you actually roll).

Once you've got a Sustaining Foci or two, start looking at other stuff. Power foci are expensive, but awesome, giving you their Force rating on practically everything related to casting spells.
Hm.. SO I need two separate foci to sustain my spells, correct? I have 500 bp to work with, so I think I can afford the sustaining foci, and maybe a power focis.

Now, is the math follows as such:

I was to cast a force 5 manabolt, and I have a power foci 4

so I roll Spellcasting+willpower+4
My successes are limited to how much force is in the spell, so I can get a max of 5 successes
my foe can first roll his Reaction to dodge the bolt
Then body to resist the damage
after, I roll to resist drain, with my drain skills Intuition+Willpower

I feel my damage output will be low... and I have no idea what to do to optimize this :smallfrown:

[avr]

A spell lock is an older edition name for a sustaining focus, yes. My bad.


Hm.. SO I need two separate foci to sustain my spells, correct? I have 500 bp to work with, so I think I can afford the sustaining foci, and maybe a power focis.

Now, is the math follows as such:

I was to cast a force 5 manabolt, and I have a power foci 4

so I roll Spellcasting+willpower+4
No, spellcasting+magic+4. Say 14 dice, minus a couple for whatever adverse conditions are in effect (there's very often something), +1 if you get a specialty in combat magic.

My successes are limited to how much force is in the spell, so I can get a max of 5 successes
my foe can first roll his Reaction to dodge the bolt
Then body to resist the damage
No, he can't roll Reaction to dodge. If your target reduces your net successes to 0 with Body they've resisted the spell and take no damage.

after, I roll to resist drain, with my drain skills Intuition+Willpower

I feel my damage output will be low... and I have no idea what to do to optimize this :smallfrown:
Damage will be force (5) + successes BTW, or about 9 on average. About 7-8 average after they roll Body unless they have counterspelling. You can do any number of things to increase this, most simply by getting Magic 6 and casting a force 6 spell. Spirits can add to your damage output of course if you're set up in advance; they're often not so useful when you're surprised.

[WinWin]

Drain is another consideration. I am fairly sure 1st aid can work on lethal drain. Stimpatches no longer carry as many risks as in previous editions, so they can be useful in overcoming stun damage.

Health spells are legal. With a valid SIN, you can probably walk through a security checkpoint with one active, providing you have the proper licences. Reaction and Initiative enhancers fall into this category.

Combat spells, Manipulation spells and certain foci can be problematic. Above a certain level they are likely to raise a red flag, even if you have a good Fake SIN and assorted paperwork. This could just be the storyteller I had, and not a universal rule though.

Learn about astral cleansing. It's paranoid, but it may stop a corp investigator from developing a profile on your character.

Elemental effects are flashy any have major drain associated with them, but can also have secondary effects. These are unassociated with damage and some can be fairly debilitating. They are covered in Street Magic.

[Vallum]

So... How does improved invisibility works? How does someone see me? Do they only have to beat the force of the spell, or do I roll anything?? I'm kinda confused... Cause just beating a 6 seems low.