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Reprimand
2011-02-08, 06:53 PM
We're playing with pathfinder books but we also use 3.5 stuff, My lvl 6 monk has wiped every encounter we've faced in a dungeon built for 9th level characters thus far, I raped the final boss which was a lich because my hands are magic bludgeoning weapons and I just made this character without really trying. I'm completely exaggerating when I say my DM cried but he was getting pretty steamed over my monk.

I started with 1 level of lion totem barbarian for pounce (I traded out rage for the lion totem ability) and fun times then went into monk to gain flurry of blows and other stuff like high jump, stunning fist and ki strike, I took battle jump which sounded like fun with pounce and high jump and I took knock down so now when I deal 15 damage or more I get a free trip attempt and I tend to knock the down a lot, and I get an AoO when they get up. but I think it became really OP really fast.

The party seems to like me but the DM is getting kind of frustrated with with me.

Should I just scrap the character and start anew?

(Just as a note b4 I came along the DM seemed to be killing off party members left and right from what I've heard.)

MightyIgoo
2011-02-08, 07:03 PM
At this point I'd say your DM brought it on himself. For one, he let you ignore the alignment requirements for barbarian and monk. And then he let a monk have pounce. Geeeeeeez.

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 07:05 PM
Wait...monk...OP...what?

*asplodes*

Could you post a link to the sheet or something? What are you using, like, 42 point buy?

Granted, Lion Totem Barb + Monk solves the big problem with mobility + full attacking, and Battle Jump does a decent job of amping up damage, assuming you can make the high jump checks needed to jump over someone, but still...

Buh wha?

sonofzeal
2011-02-08, 07:05 PM
At this point I'd say your DM brought it on himself. For one, he let you ignore the alignment requirements for barbarian and monk. And then he let a monk have pounce. Geeeeeeez.
Alignment works, assuming he turned lawful. He'd lose rage, but keep Pounce.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-08, 07:06 PM
Make sure your DM knows you can't use Flurry and Pounce together. Flurry is a full round action, not a full attack.

tanderson11
2011-02-08, 07:07 PM
Heh . . . a quick google search for "My OP monk" reveals this as one of five times that phrase has been used, and it is the only time that "My OP monk made my DM cry" has been used :smalltongue:

MightyIgoo
2011-02-08, 07:11 PM
I mean, I know he could have a big change of heart and go from chaotic to lawful-- mechanically it's pretty easily solved. But RP-wise that's a bit of a jump. I've never been one to take alignment changes lightly.

Talbot
2011-02-08, 07:13 PM
There is a Chaotic Monk variant in one of the Dragon Mags. Although I'm not sure whether or not it still gets Flurry.

tyckspoon
2011-02-08, 07:14 PM
It sounds to me like your DM is maybe just used to a very low-optimization group. You're not overpowered in the great scale of the game, but it can be a nasty shock to a DM to run into a character that does something reasonably effectively if the rest of the group normally struggles with challenges as written in a module (note: pre-written modules are notorious for generally being quite soft. A 9th-level module is likely to be a pretty appropriate task or even easy for an optimized 6th-level party.)

BobVosh
2011-02-08, 07:15 PM
It is even easier to fix by ignoring the alignment requirements as always chaotic on barbarians doesn't make much sense imo.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-08, 07:17 PM
It sounds to me like your DM is maybe just used to a very low-optimization group. You're not overpowered in the great scale of the game, but it can be a nasty shock to a DM to run into a character that does something reasonably effectively if the rest of the group normally struggles with challenges as written in a module (note: pre-written modules are notorious for generally being quite soft. A 9th-level module is likely to be a pretty appropriate task or even easy for an optimized 6th-level party.)

This. What's the rest of the party composition? Does the wizard use fireballs? Does the cleric heal during combat? Does the fighter use sword n' board? If yes to any of those, I think we have our answer.

Lateral
2011-02-08, 07:18 PM
...Yeah, we need to see some sheets here.

dgnslyr
2011-02-08, 07:18 PM
I though Barbarians were just non-lawful? Neutral to Lawful is not a huge alignment jump.

tyckspoon
2011-02-08, 07:19 PM
Make sure your DM knows you can't use Flurry and Pounce together. Flurry is a full round action, not a full attack.

? Both the PHB and the Pathfinder book use the full attack language.


assuming you can make the high jump checks needed to jump over someone,

This, incidentally, is pretty easy for a Pathfinder monk- they always count as getting a running start, 1/2 class level as a bonus to Acrobatics checks, speed bonus gives a jump bonus for being faster than 30 feet, and if they're willing to spend a Ki point on it, they can cast Jump on themselves. Not too hard to get the 40+ check you'll need to clear a standard Medium opponent. Pretty good way to hammer some of the class abilities into actually working with each other, really.

Sillycomic
2011-02-08, 07:21 PM
How is the rest of the group so far as power? You are an Overpowered monk with everything you put together, (I would say bordering on cheese consider the alignment problem, but w/e)

Is the rest of the group as dip/splat-tastic as you are?

If not, it makes sense that you can trounce everything the GM puts in your way. I imagine he will start beefing up enemies, or making them immune to your awesomeness or perhaps just use better tactics.

What kind of GM is he? How long have you been destroying his bad guys with little effort?

Perhaps you should get a new character, or dial down your monk a bit.

I also see there's no real role playing problems here. Which means the actual role playing part doesn't interest you, or that isn't a problem in the game. I'm hoping it's the latter.

Perhaps you could have your character be a bit more monk-like and reserved? He knows he can kick anyone's butt in a moment's notice, but he chooses to fight only as a last resort. You can go around with a hood over your head and stand silently while the others fight, doing something like trying to talk the lich out of this silly battle, or perhaps even meditating...

And only when someone interrupts your meditation do you come to life, pouncing, high jumping, shock troopering, flurry of blowing (lol) and destroy the thing that dared to touch you.

Then go back to your meditating as the rest of the group fights on around you....

Argh, now I wish I had a high powered monk. That would be so awesome!

Mando Knight
2011-02-08, 07:23 PM
It is even easier to fix by ignoring the alignment requirements as always chaotic on barbarians doesn't make much sense imo.

Barbarians are any non-lawful, though.

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 07:27 PM
Barbarians can become lawful. The only thing a lawful barbarian loses is the ability to rage. Pounce, the main reason to dip Spirit Lion Barb, would be preserved regardless of alignment.

Vangor
2011-02-08, 07:33 PM
Trip spam builds seem overpowered towards the beginning. Wouldn't reroll at all, merely be prepared to lose effectiveness when facing larger, stronger opponents unless you focus exclusively on tripping. For instance, centaurs receive a +12 against trips (large, quadruped, 18str) and are only CR3, and similar enemies are easy to create.


Make sure your DM knows you can't use Flurry and Pounce together. Flurry is a full round action, not a full attack.

Flurry is a full attack action, not full round, and pounce specifically permits a full attack.


A monk must use a full attack action (see page 143) to strike with a flurry of blows.


When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack

Besides, needing to make a full attack action to use flurry of blows is one of the many poor design elements of the monk. Despite being permitted by pounce, the language is still more restrictive than necessary considering the limited power of monks and should always include an additional attack on either attack option.

Lateral
2011-02-08, 07:33 PM
And frankly, RPed well, a Neutral/Lawful shift's no big deal.

So far, I've seen nothing that says this is really that bad. Your group seems to have very little optimization in it; a Monk 5/ Barbarian 1 with Pounce and Knock-Down is decent, but not horribly powerful. Your DM probably just doesn't have much experience with optimization; that's okay, just tone it down a bit or use it in a way that makes the party shine instead of just you.

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 07:44 PM
I am seeing a lot of feats, though...

Hmmm, Human Barb1/Monk5

H Battle Jump
1 Combat Expertese
M1 Stunning Fist
M2 Combat Reflexes
3 Improved Trip
6 Knockdown

Note that going this way is a huge ability tax. Combat Expertese requires a 13+ Int, which takes away precious ability points from Str/Dex/Wis/Con...

Unless he went Barb2/Monk4 and took Spirit Lion Totem and UA Wolf Totem. Granted, nothing says you can't build that way, but mixing totems is often frowned upon. Then he could have:

H Battle Jump
1 X
B2 Improved Trip
M1 Stunning Fist
3 Knockdown
M2 Combat Reflexes
6 X

Which would be a bit more optimal, leaving 2 feats open or negating the requirements of Human only.

Just some build speculation...

grarrrg
2011-02-08, 08:01 PM
There is a Chaotic Monk variant in one of the Dragon Mags. Although I'm not sure whether or not it still gets Flurry.

It doesn't get "Flurry" it gets "Chaotic Flurry".
Instead of a set number of attacks you roll a die and get that many extra attacks. I think it starts at 1d4-1 at ChaosMonk1 and gains from there.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-08, 08:04 PM
Note that going this way is a huge ability tax. Combat Expertese requires a 13+ Int, which takes away precious ability points from Str/Dex/Wis/Con...You know, it's possible he rolled for his abilities...

Always kinda bugs me on these boards, assuming that because one of your stats is decentish, that the rest had to suffer for it...

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 08:11 PM
Yea...I guess I always assume point buy, as it is the great equalizer. I've done rolling before, and you always get that guy who shows up to the session with 3 18s and swears he rolled them.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-08, 08:16 PM
Yea...I guess I always assume point buy, as it is the great equalizer. I've done rolling before, and you always get that guy who shows up to the session with 3 18s and swears he rolled them.I'll admit, that bugs me, too - and then there are the DMs that let you reroll until you have 3 18s "naturally." Honestly, if it's gonna be that much hassle, I would rather use point-buy. :smallannoyed: But with that in mind, I suppose point-buy's not a bad assumption to make. :smallsmile:

theMycon
2011-02-08, 08:49 PM
I am seeing a lot of feats, though...

Hmmm, Human Barb1/Monk5

H Battle Jump
1 Combat Expertese
M1 Stunning Fist
M2 Combat Reflexes
3 Improved Trip
6 Knockdown

Note that going this way is a huge ability tax. Combat Expertese requires a 13+ Int, which takes away precious ability points from Str/Dex/Wis/Con...

For what it's worth, I believe the PF monk gets improved trip as a bonus feat, which would remove the need for combat expertise (and thus, for the Int), if he shuffled Combat Reflexes to one of his "real" feats.

Still, unless he got the Improved Natural Attack houseruled in for a monk (making STR another dump stat), it still needs quite a few good rolls to be amazing.

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 08:55 PM
Non-PF monks get Imp Trip as their 6th level bonus feat, but the OP stated he's 6th level, and has at least 1 level of barb, so that ruled that out.

Also, you don't need a house rule for INA to work for a monk. UASs are natural attacks in ALL regards, EXCEPT for the fact that they make iterative attacks (which normal natural attacks don't). INA is a perfectly legal choice for UASs in any circumstance, assuming you meet the +4 BAB minimum.

tyckspoon
2011-02-08, 09:06 PM
Also, you don't need a house rule for INA to work for a monk. UASs are natural attacks in ALL regards, EXCEPT for the fact that they make iterative attacks (which normal natural attacks don't). INA is a perfectly legal choice for UASs in any circumstance, assuming you meet the +4 BAB minimum.

Pathfinder lead developer/one of the lead developers made a ruling that it doesn't work. Used incredibly flimsy/no rules justification for it, so it's basically a "because I don't like the idea, that's why", but it's officially the intent for Pathfinder that Monks do not use INA and might have made it into an actual errata by now. (I suspect a similar negative answer would be given to any question regarding a PC taking a 'monster' feat.)

JaronK
2011-02-08, 09:11 PM
To be clear, you have Battle Jump and Pounce. You could be a commoner with those abilities and still be scary. I'd normally add Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, but whatever. Monk may be in the build, but all Monk is doing is lowering your chance to hit but giving an extra attack and some bonus feats (Fighter would likely be better).

Seriously, check this out: Human Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Commoner 5 with Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack. Pick up a Glaive. Kill fools.

JaronK

MeeposFire
2011-02-08, 09:32 PM
Besides at level 6 melee is awesome! Ask again around level13 and then level20 and watch as it progress to less awesome :(.

Mojo_Rat
2011-02-08, 09:42 PM
i dont understand how you /hit/ a lvl 11 spellcaster let alone defeated one. Knockdown etc dont mean alot when he just kills you on his next turn.

Monks have good saves but dc 22+ saves are only 50% chance of success on level appropriate PC's

But ultimately, while 3.5 stuff can be used it really shouldnt be used unrestricted with PF.

theres a reason Pounce is level 10 barbarian thing in PF

MeeposFire
2011-02-08, 09:49 PM
i dont understand how you /hit/ a lvl 11 spellcaster let alone defeated one. Knockdown etc dont mean alot when he just kills you on his next turn.

Monks have good saves but dc 22+ saves are only 50% chance of success on level appropriate PC's

But ultimately, while 3.5 stuff can be used it really shouldnt be used unrestricted with PF.

theres a reason Pounce is level 10 barbarian thing in PF

Most people can't or won't play casters to their full potential. In many this is actually more fun.

ericgrau
2011-02-08, 10:34 PM
Wait...monk...OP...what?

*asplodes*

Could you post a link to the sheet or something? What are you using, like, 42 point buy?

Granted, Lion Totem Barb + Monk solves the big problem with mobility + full attacking, and Battle Jump does a decent job of amping up damage, assuming you can make the high jump checks needed to jump over someone, but still...

Buh wha?

Happens all the times in other forums. They're afraid to show their face in the playground though. You may notice that the OP is a pixie. My last group banned the monk (and only the monk) for being OP. I do always find peoples' exaggerations amusing. The class is a bit situational but neither horrible nor uber.

dextercorvia
2011-02-08, 10:43 PM
If you fight a lot of earthbound medium bipedal opponents, tripping works. His monk would have considerable trouble damaging anything that flew with a ranged attack -- like say a Lich.

Somebody is not going to see what I did there.

Lateral
2011-02-09, 03:03 PM
Happens all the times in other forums. They're afraid to show their face in the playground though. You may notice that the OP is a pixie. My last group banned the monk (and only the monk) for being OP. I do always find peoples' exaggerations amusing. The class is a bit situational but neither horrible nor uber.
Well, it does pop up here occasionally. Kind of painful to watch, seeing as I started one back when I was a pixie and had very little experience with 3.5 as a system. :smallredface:

@V: What Keld Denar said. It's forum rules not to discriminate because of forum rank.

H Birchgrove
2011-02-09, 03:12 PM
Is "pixie" RPG lingo for "newbie"? :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2011-02-09, 03:17 PM
Pixie (or other prefixes) in the Playground are related directly to post count.

That said, we aren't supposed to discuss this, and a person (and their opinions) shouldn't be praised or dismissed due to their post count. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45659)

And the scale seems to be based on creature size, rather than creature power.

Reprimand
2011-02-09, 03:25 PM
To answer the rest of your questions we have a cloistered cleric of wee jas who acts as our main healer, a sword and board fighter, a sorcerer who blasts the crap out of a lot of stuff, and we have a rogue who like to hide and throw shuriken at people from hidden locations dealing heavy Sneak Attack damage.

Keld Denar
2011-02-09, 03:26 PM
Do you have an online character sheet you could post? Or at least a level/feat breakdown, along with possible gear?

Cause I think that would help clear things up a lot.

Reprimand
2011-02-09, 03:34 PM
I am seeing a lot of feats, though...

Hmmm, Human Barb1/Monk5

H Battle Jump
1 Combat Expertese
M1 Stunning Fist
M2 Combat Reflexes
3 Improved Trip
6 Knockdown

Note that going this way is a huge ability tax. Combat Expertese requires a 13+ Int, which takes away precious ability points from Str/Dex/Wis/Con...

Unless he went Barb2/Monk4 and took Spirit Lion Totem and UA Wolf Totem. Granted, nothing says you can't build that way, but mixing totems is often frowned upon. Then he could have:

H Battle Jump
1 X
B2 Improved Trip
M1 Stunning Fist
3 Knockdown
M2 Combat Reflexes
6 X

Which would be a bit more optimal, leaving 2 feats open or negating the requirements of Human only.

Just some build speculation...

Actually I leveled up in the middle of the dungeon and got improved trip as my level 6 bonus feat for monk. I didn't have to take combat expertise. at 6th level my monk took improved natural attack and I took combat reflexes for my 2nd bonus feat for extra tripping fun.

Level 7 overall
Level 1 - Lion totem barbarian. Took Battle Jump and power attack for my human feat.
Level 2 - Monk, obtained stunning fist and took pain touch from CW as my bonus feat
Level 3 - Monk 2nd, got combat reflexes and took knockdown
Level 4 Monk 3rd
Level 5 Monk 4th
Level 6 Monk 5th Took flying jump kick (DM ruled that every attack I make when charging gets +1D12 damage which sinergized well with pounce and battle jump.
level 7 Monk 6th Took improved trip as my bonus feat.
At level 9 I'm taking improved natural attack, and leadership after that to get a transmuter as my cohort, Can you say greater mighty whallop?

ex cathedra
2011-02-09, 03:46 PM
If your Monk took Improved Natural Attack at 6th level, then you aren't using Pathfinder's feat progression, which means that you couldn't take Knock-Down at 7th level, which means that you couldn't have that feat until 9th level.

It just doesn't add up.

Reprimand
2011-02-09, 03:47 PM
If your Monk took Improved Natural Attack at 6th level, then you aren't using Pathfinder's feat progression, which means that you couldn't take Knock-Down at 7th level, which means that you couldn't have that feat until 9th level.

It just doesn't add up.

My DM allowed a few exceptions because I was new.

Ceaon
2011-02-09, 03:53 PM
In which case, your DM has only himself to blame. :smallwink:

However, you, as a player, could rework your character to be legal. He'll lose a bit of efficiency and will make the DM less frustrated, and you'll get the pride of making a legal yet powerful character. Everyone wins!

ex cathedra
2011-02-09, 03:55 PM
Ah, I see. The DM house-ruled heavily in your favor, and it in addition to powerful feats and dips made you more powerful than the rest of the apparently unoptimized party?

Why, that's positively unheard of.

Telonius
2011-02-09, 04:07 PM
Level 6 Monk 5th Took flying jump kick (DM ruled that every attack I make when charging gets +1D12 damage which sinergized well with pounce and battle jump.

I think this would be the key to the whole mess. This is a massive screwup on the DM's part. It would be like giving Greater Manyshot to a precision damage-based character at 6th level. (Incidentally, I had a DM make this exact screwup with an Order of the Bow Initiate once...) The +1d12 is supposed to be one instance per charge, not per hit.

Psyborg
2011-02-09, 06:55 PM
Yea...I guess I always assume point buy, as it is the great equalizer. I've done rolling before, and you always get that guy who shows up to the session with 3 18s and swears he rolled them.

And then there's the guy who rolls three 18s right in front of you, and nothing lower than 13. Yes, I have seen this happen. I think the point buy worked out to 73 (!!!). It was a standard cheap Chessex die.

I suppose it had to happen to someone, somewhere, but seriously...I'm still not quite sure I believe it.

Edit: On topic :smallredface: OP, I sincerely recommend that you avoid Leadership like the plague. It is, absolutely bar none, the most powerful feat in the game, roughly as powerful as any entire Tier 2 class. Even if all you do with it is have your cohort cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you, that's going to be a substantial raw damage increase, which is exactly what your DM is uncomfortable with. Yes, optimizing is fun, but optimizing significantly above the rest of the party is much less fun. Take it easy for a while. And let your DM know Flying Jump Kick is per charge, rather than per attack.

Later, at the early teen levels, when you're learning why everyone rants about monks sucking...then maybe you can take Leadership. Maybe. If you're very very very cautious with it. But that feat...is trouble. I recomment against it.

(Personally, I'd go War Hulk after Greater Flurry kicks in just for the heck of it, though you'd need some way to get size Large to qualify.)

Edit 2 @Lord Gareth, below: The exact set of stats was 18,18,18,16,16,15. 76 point buy. And yeah, he does nearly as well all the time. Generally rolls well for damage, too, as long as he's using a d6 or 2d6 weapon. I'd swear he got a rigged die, but it's pretty much the same thing with any die he uses. -shakes head- Crazy, but not to the level of your player's four 18s and two 17s! GodAllah darnit, that's...insane. :belkar:

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-09, 06:58 PM
And then there's the guy who rolls three 18s right in front of you, and nothing lower than 13. Yes, I have seen this happen. I think the point buy worked out to 73 (!!!). It was a standard cheap Chessex die.

I suppose it had to happen to someone, somewhere, but seriously...I'm still not quite sure I believe it.

There's one guy in my group where, I kid you not, he always rolls straight 18's and 17's, right in front of us. It doesn't matter what dice we use, the rolling style, or even if we hand him brand-new-just-off-the-assembly-line D6's, he always gets four 18's and two 17's. He's the REASON that we use point buy.

VirOath
2011-02-09, 07:10 PM
There's one guy in my group where, I kid you not, he always rolls straight 18's and 17's, right in front of us. It doesn't matter what dice we use, the rolling style, or even if we hand him brand-new-just-off-the-assembly-line D6's, he always gets four 18's and two 17's. He's the REASON that we use point buy.

Normally for D&D when we get around to it, we all roll stats at the table, take the highest array out of the party, break it down into points, and everyone gets that many points to build with.

The party balance of playing Point Buy with the chance to help out MAD builds like rolling offers.

ericgrau
2011-02-09, 07:21 PM
If you make sure the dice do at least a 720 on the table or rattle a good deal in a cup or hands then high stats are less of a problem. Otherwise it's pretty easy to get excited and drop the same number repeatedly without even trying.

A truly random roll only has a 5.7% chance of being a 17 or 18. The average truly random set of rolls has a 15 or 16 as its high stat.