LGBTAitp - Part Twelve [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Jacklu

2011-02-08, 10:15 PM

Welcome, one and all.

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTAitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormaitivity.

Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the last few threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

*modified from the original.

Jokasti

2011-02-08, 10:18 PM

New thread, woooo!
Does anyone have any good LGBT humor related sites?

golentan

2011-02-08, 10:25 PM

New thread, woooo!
Does anyone have any good LGBT humor related sites?

El Goonish Shive (http://www.egscomics.com/) is a nice funny comic with lots and lots of LGBT themes. So... many... LGBT themes...

Coidzor

2011-02-08, 10:28 PM

El Goonish Shive (http://www.egscomics.com/) is a nice funny comic with lots and lots of LGBT themes. So... many... LGBT themes...

Though definitely not for everyone.

That was more taking limbs away.

Well, that and there was the man who was reduced into something more akin to a gibbon than a man. And I wasn't meaning it in the sense of a nice application of the technology anyway.

golentan

2011-02-08, 10:36 PM

Though definitely not for everyone.

So? I think it's worth trying, and it was the first thing that leapt to mind. Jokasti may not love it, but it deserves more love so I plug it when I get the chance.

unosarta

2011-02-08, 10:46 PM

Coidzor

2011-02-08, 10:51 PM

So?

Suffice to say I figure any comic that makes me drop it deserves a YMMV.

Lioness

2011-02-08, 11:05 PM

New thread, woooo!
Does anyone have any good LGBT humor related sites?

LGBTLaughs (lgbtlaughs.tumblr.com) is a good one :smallsmile:

MoriHikari

2011-02-08, 11:20 PM

Yay new thread! :smallbiggrin:

Danne

2011-02-08, 11:28 PM

Serpentine

2011-02-08, 11:30 PM

Long post PMed for religious and political content.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-08, 11:37 PM

Mmmm, new thread smell.

I have a question. Does anyone have some good arguments for gay marriage, and why it should be legal, besides the usual ones that are brought up. Some kids in my Social Studies class were talking about how gay people should just do domestic partnership, and I didn't really argue with them about it mostly because a) they were across the room, and yelling at them seemed like a bad idea, and b) that I couldn't really come up with any arguments. Afterwards, me and my teacher and a friend were talking about it, and that one's insurance goes up when you are on the same plan in a domestic partnership as compared to a marriage, and that you lose out on a lot of rights as a domestic partner as compared to a married person. Does anyone else have a compelling argument if this comes up again (which I have the feeling it might :smallannoyed:)?

Interestingly, in a quick search most of the arguments for gay marriage seems largely to consist of debunking the reasons against it. Sample link (that I haven't finished reading yet). (http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm)

Reasons I can think of in favour of:

We're people too, we should have the right to express our feelings for our partner(s) the same way heterosexual people can.

Gender issues. When you limit marriage to a man and a woman specifically, how do you define "man" and "woman?" No matter how you define it you start to run into problems. Chromosonally? By gonads? Genitals? None of those work as good definitions of gender because no matter what there are people whose gender doesn't match what they would be determined by those factors. Even if we just let it be defined by the person in question, there's still problems because not everyone fits nicely into the categories of "man" and "woman." I don't, nor do I really want to. I like standing a little apart in the middle of gender (at least when nobody's making me feel bad about it and sometimes even then). It seems to me that it's easier just to let people marry whoever wants to get married with them regardless of gender (or amibiguity or lack thereof).

Vaynor

2011-02-08, 11:43 PM

Long post PMed for religious and political content.

All forum rules apply everywhere on the board, including private messages. If you want to talk with someone about something that is against forum rules, do it elsewhere.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-09, 12:28 AM

El Goonish Shive (http://www.egscomics.com/) is a nice funny comic with lots and lots of LGBT themes. So... many... LGBT themes...

I'm afraid I must thank you and curse you.

I must thank you because I find this comic to be awesome.

I must curse you because I'm supposed to be doing school. :smalltongue:

Nano

2011-02-09, 01:22 AM

So, the absolute minimum date for my SRS is 5/10/12. Woo!

golentan

2011-02-09, 01:22 AM

I'm afraid I must thank you and curse you.

I must thank you because I find this comic to be awesome.

I must curse you because I'm supposed to be doing school. :smalltongue:

Youi'm sorrwelcome.

So. Poetry reading went well. I barely damped my clothes with sweat, turned a red three shades lighter than I thought I would, and only had two minor heart attacks.

Umm... Evidently I need to work on the fact I overuse cliches.

Worira

2011-02-09, 01:31 AM

Mystic Muse

2011-02-09, 01:32 AM

So, the absolute minimum date for my SRS is 5/10/12. Woo!

That doesn't seem too terribly bad. Although, to be fair, I kind of have a warped sense of time for not even being 18.

Golentan, I have to mention again how much this comic rocks at the moment.:smallbiggrin:

Substitute mixed-race for gay. Apply same arguments.

Also, remind them "All men are created equal".

golentan

2011-02-09, 01:41 AM

That doesn't seem too terribly bad. Although, to be fair, I kind of have a warped sense of time for not even being 18.

Ha. I called someone up a year and a half after I last promised to speak to them soon and couldn't understand why they were getting so worked up after such a brief delay.

Anyhoo, I can't think of any arguments for gay marriage that do not hinge on debunking arguments against. The whole thing is a social structure that exists in a vacuum. People get married because they love each other and want to commit to that, but marriage is not required to demonstrate love or commitment. People get married for legal and financial benefits, but those benefits exist as written solely because people get married, and many if not all can be gained through other methods. Ultimately, I can't think of a single reason justifying the existence of the institution apart from people want it.

And that's good enough for me. Because if people want something, and don't have to harm the innocent to get it, the rest of the world can go choke so far as I'm concerned if they don't like it.

Worira

2011-02-09, 02:23 AM

Leading, I suppose, to the strategy of asking them to provide arguments for the need for straight marriage.

The Shadowmind

2011-02-09, 02:25 AM

New thread, woooo!
Does anyone have any good LGBT humor related sites?

http://www.transe-generation.com/default.php, is somewhat humorous, even though it is poorly drawn and some panels that might not be safe for work and is pretty much abandoned.

Worira

2011-02-09, 03:01 AM

Have you had your daily dose of adorable? (http://borngaybornthisway.blogspot.com/) Probably not, since I'm posting this at midnight PST.

Lix Lorn

2011-02-09, 04:29 AM

So, the absolute minimum date for my SRS is 5/10/12. Woo!
Wow, congrats! (hugs)
(envyyyy)

Coidzor

2011-02-09, 06:28 AM

Leading, I suppose, to the strategy of asking them to provide arguments for the need for straight marriage.

Have to admit, never much saw the point of it beyond something that'd just been grandfathered in from when people were paranoid about property inheritance and making sure they were actually raising their own sprog.

Don Julio Anejo

2011-02-09, 06:52 AM

I want to point out that in many countries (example: Russia), civil union is the "official" marriage, while marriage itself is a purely religious ceremony. Heck, in there the main part of the ceremony is at the registration office instead of the church (if there even is a ceremony in church). In countries with such laws/traditions, how would it relegate gay couples to second class? Assuming, of course, it's legal in a hypothetical country we're talking about, since Russia is a bad example with its almost institutionalized homophobia.

I'll stop here and won't make inferences since it can cross into politics.

Serpentine

2011-02-09, 06:55 AM

rakkoon

2011-02-09, 07:11 AM

I want to point out that in many countries (example: Russia), civil union is the "official" marriage, while marriage itself is a purely religious ceremony

There are countries where this is different? Again I learn something new from the internets...

Asta Kask

2011-02-09, 07:33 AM

Sweden is different.

Questionable Content (http://questionablecontent.net/) does not shy away from LGBT stuff (although it's not a major theme).

Delusion

2011-02-09, 07:45 AM

So, the absolute minimum date for my SRS is 5/10/12. Woo!

Congratulations, Nano!

Callista

2011-02-09, 10:03 AM

With the gay marriage thing--wouldn't that work as an argument for the opposite, too? If a civil partnership is for all practical purposes identical to a marriage, then why not make it a marriage (or make all marriages civil partnerships)? The only thing left over is an artificial distinction between straight and gay marriages--little more than a political statement that they aren't equal, when in reality they are...

Serpentine

2011-02-09, 10:06 AM

That's pretty much what we're going for, with just a distinction between secular and religious union and the latter having no legal nor (general) cultural advantages over the former.

Beelzebub1111

2011-02-09, 10:10 AM

Thanks to the Defense of Marraige Act, it isn't the same thing in the united states. Only counts from state to state.

rakkoon

2011-02-09, 10:11 AM

(Serpentine, which is what we have over here but we're getting political :smallwink:)

Yay Nano!

Danne

2011-02-09, 10:18 AM

I want to point out that in many countries (example: Russia), civil union is the "official" marriage, while marriage itself is a purely religious ceremony. Heck, in there the main part of the ceremony is at the registration office instead of the church (if there even is a ceremony in church). In countries with such laws/traditions, how would it relegate gay couples to second class?

It doesn't. That's only the case where marriage is the norm.

Re: Doing away with marriages in favor of civil unions (and trying to keep it unpolitical) I would say that's a very dangerous course. People who are already married are likely to look at it as "taking away" their marriages, which could get some people who are neutral or even supporters to shift to being against it.

Serpentine

2011-02-09, 10:20 AM

Getting rid of marriages? No, not at all, just separating the secular and religious aspects of them.

Don Julio Anejo

2011-02-09, 11:09 AM

It doesn't. That's only the case where marriage is the norm.

Re: Doing away with marriages in favor of civil unions (and trying to keep it unpolitical) I would say that's a very dangerous course. People who are already married are likely to look at it as "taking away" their marriages, which could get some people who are neutral or even supporters to shift to being against it.
It's possible to simply start off with the two being separate ceremonies. I.e. you register the marriage/union at a government office and then go to church to get married if you want to, however from a government point of view making no distinction between the two...

RaggedAngel

2011-02-09, 08:12 PM

I run the Gay-Straight Alliance at my school. We have a meeting every week, discussing various topics. We're open to people of every sexuality, religion, and political alignment. We're all at least vaguely friends, and we normally have a great time.

Today, however, I wanted to discuss Polygamy. I had prepared information, and wanted to have a light discussion, like we normally do. However, I wasn't done with the basic overview before angry arguments had broken out.

I have two questions, to help me understand why some members of the club were so upset by the subject:

1. Is polygamy a subject of relevance to the LGBT community?

{Scrubbed}

Lioness

2011-02-09, 08:34 PM

1. I think it's relevant mainly in that it's a deviation from the cultural norms...it doesn't really, in my mind, have any more connection with LGBT than that.

golentan

2011-02-09, 08:37 PM

1. Not particularly in my mind.
2. Can't really think of any. Might make divorce law more complicated. :smalleek:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-09, 08:49 PM

2. Would the legalization of polygamous marriage in the United States have any effect other than the validation of the practices of certain sects of the Mormon church?

Possibly more acceptance of polygamy in general, although it's debatable whether that's a good thing.

It would also make a lot of other religions quite mad I'd imagine.

Might make a few different laws kind of odd.

DeadManSleeping

2011-02-09, 08:58 PM

1. No, because non-straight people can't be polyamorous[/sarcasm]

2. There's lots of legal stuff involved in marriage that might get odd if more than two people were involved, but that's as much as we can say here. I am sure that divorce rates would go up, because polyamorous relationships have the inherent added instability of an added person (humans are unstable, more humans are more unstable). I can also imagine quite a bit of emotional issues arising from manipulators using the idea of 'legitimacy' to coerce partners into polyamorous relationships that the partners don't necessarily want, but I'd think that would be an incredibly rare case (and, yes, people do that sort of manipulation already, but the frequency might increase enough to be statistically significant). Yes, overall, this might give rise to more non-monogamous romantic situations, but humanity fluctuates between monogamy being the norm and polygamy being the norm. I can cite plenty of examples for both. I really don't see a problem with things swinging the other way.

Well, except that it would even further reduce my chances of finding a romantic partner, but I think that once you go as low as "practically impossible", complaining about further reduction is a bit petty.

So, if you were to ask me, I'd say "go ahead and legalize it". But I don't think anyone's going to make the push anytime soon, because that ol' "sanctity of marriage" argument is going to be shoved in polyamory's face until the cows come home.

Heliomance

2011-02-09, 09:12 PM

1. No, because non-straight people can't be polyamorous[/sarcasm]

It does make it a little trickier, what with a polyamorous relationship requiring at least two members of the same sex.

Yes, I realise this assumes a binary gender system which not everyone falls into, yadda yadda. The point still stands.

turkishproverb

2011-02-09, 09:26 PM

Aw. I didn't even make it in on the first page of the new thread. :smallannoyed:

Serpentine

2011-02-09, 09:39 PM

I'd say there's three big problems with legal polygamy:

1. It's almost always in the form of one man, multiple women. It would have to be made sure that it's equal across the board.
2. There's a lot of room for abuse in polygamy. A lot of care in law and policing would have to be taken to make sure it isn't abused.
3. Marriage, inheritance and divorce law is already pretty damn complicated. Adding extra people in it, with extra children and so forth, is gonna make everything a whole lot more complicated.

Of course, that only applies to legal marriage. I don't expect that many polyamorous relationships work out in the long term, but that's about my only "problem" with them.

Jokasti

2011-02-09, 09:44 PM

Rainbow Servant

2011-02-09, 09:56 PM

I'm pretty sure (not 100%, but still) that:

Polygamy - multiple marriages
Polygyny - one man, multiple wives
Polyandry - one woman, multiple husbands

And yeah, not necessarily LGBT, but still an interesting topic to debate. I don't think many legal systems would have to change too much to accomodate it either, since I don't think it's too much more complicated than divorce+remarriage, it just applies to more aspects than custody of the children.

Also, hi? I keep meaning to post here, but yeah...

Danne

2011-02-09, 10:21 PM

New person! Hi, new person! *hugs and leaves cookies*

Also, @all: I think we're starting to toe the "get in trouble because of politics and/or religion" line. Let's be careful?

celtois

2011-02-09, 10:30 PM

Polypanamoury

Trying say it aloud its fun :smallbiggrin:

Not actually a word but it should be.

Serpentine

2011-02-09, 10:30 PM

Polygamy is one man, multiple woman. I think polyandry is one woman, multiple men. I wonder what you call multiples of both.Nope, polygamy's (meant to be) the neutral one.

RaggedAngel

2011-02-09, 10:34 PM

Nope, polygamy's (meant to be) the neutral one.

From what I read, (yay wikipedia), you are correct.

A "Group Marriage" is the term for a marriage including multiple men and women.

My real confusion was concerning the very hostile reaction of normally accepting people towards the issue. I can't think of why it would be especially touchy, especially for an LGBT and Ally crowd.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-09, 10:35 PM

My real confusion was concerning the very hostile reaction of normally accepting people towards the issue. I can't think of why it would be especially touchy, especially for an LGBT and Ally crowd.

Not going to say anything beyond this, but Religion.

Also, for me anyway, it still feels like you're cheating on whoever you're married to.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-09, 10:45 PM

Well, first hello and welcome to loaded.dice.

Second... polyamoury is multiple-loves, which loaded.dice missed and is the gender neutral terminology that most poly folk I know like to use for their relationships regardless of if there are multiple male partners, multiple female partners, or multiples of both.

I think polyarmoury (and thus polygamy) is an issue that relates strongly to the LGBT movement. In a way it is another alternate sexuality and I think it would be irresponsible for the LGBT not to include and support those who see and treat polyarmoury as an acceptable lifestyle for theirselves. Many people have a lot of misconceptions about how polyarmoury works (see the previous posts on this topic for examples) and there will be discrimination against poly folk until these have been cleared up.

The attitude towards polyarmoury now reminds me a lot of back when the gay rights movement was making progress, but the trans rights movement was momentarily left behind on its own. "What does that have to do with us?"

Edit: If anyone wants, I'll be happy to answer questions about poly folk, since even thought I'm not very interested a poly relationship myself, I've had a lot of poly friends.

Edit #2: The following post is better at putting things more poetically than I apparently can at the moment.

DeadManSleeping

2011-02-09, 10:47 PM

I don't really have anything against the principle of polygamy (other than aforementioned it-making-my-situation-even-worse), but it's rarely practical.

Still, I have not formed my opinion without knowing anything about polyamorous people. Sometimes, you wind up loving someone who loves you, and then you both also wind up loving a third person. It can happen. It has happened to people before, and it will happen to people in the future (unless I succeed at my villainous plans). Not everyone is open to the idea of being in a relationship with more than one person, and you know what? That's okay. That's how I am. But I don't think it's right to tell people "you can only love one person at a time". While I agree that you should never betray one you already love for someone else, if loving someone else wouldn't make the loved one feel wronged, then why should I have anything against it?

It's all about consent, trust, and understanding. Some people really can have that in a small group rather than a pair. I'm happy to support their happiness, much like I am happy to bake things for other people that I personally would not eat.

golentan

2011-02-09, 10:57 PM

rayne_dragon

2011-02-09, 11:03 PM

Actually, I have a theory on why Polygamy is such a touchy subject in LGBT discussions. It's a kneejerk reaction in response to a known threat.

Namely, when gay marriage comes up, one of the common arguments we run into are slippery slopes. And the three main places people go with slippery slopes from gay marriage are "bestiality, child abuse, and polygamy." As such, the gay community has a vested interest in keeping those topics well, well beyond arms reach. Basically "we're not with those guys, can we get married now please?"

You're probably right. Maybe we should try to get polygamists the right to marry since then nobody will complain about homosexual marriages? I mean we could try for one of the other two, but poly folk are so much nicer. Plus there's the whole consent issue with the other two.

Worira

2011-02-09, 11:52 PM

Alanzeign

2011-02-09, 11:59 PM

Danne

2011-02-10, 12:03 AM

I'm sorry, Alanzeign, you are expecting people to be rational? Well there's your problem! :smallwink:

I can't explain or understand why gay = trans = bestiality = child abuse = polygamy = bad. Suffice to say that in some people's minds it is.

golentan

2011-02-10, 12:05 AM

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but how are those "slippery slopes"? LGBT relationships are still based off of consent (at least as much as any relationship is) and bestiality + child abuse do not have the possibility of consent. Polygamy would be much more similar to LGBT relationships because all affected parties are consensual.

Also welcome loaded.dice! *hands out cookies*

I don't really understand polygamy and think in ways that it undermines a 1 vs. 1 relationship but I don't really see any issues with it either.

The slippery slope fallacy is entirely based of the problems you mentioned. It isn't a slippery slope argument if the ending portion is actually a direct and logical consequence of the preceding points.

I.E. if someone says "Providing pizza during breaks may lead to complaints from people who can't eat dairy" is not a slippery slope argument, whereas appending "which will bankrupt us because we'll have to buy them caviar!" is.

Coidzor

2011-02-10, 12:06 AM

^: It's the idea of, well, one thing has just been changed about marriage, thus we're going to be more receptive to change in the future, as far as I've ever been able to tell.

2. Can't really think of any. Might make divorce law more complicated. :smalleek:

Yeah, pretty much. qntm.org deals with some other concerns in the article "Gay Marriage: the database engineering perspective"

I have two questions, to help me understand why some members of the club were so upset by the subject:

I'd say it's because it has all of the nasty divisions of discussing marriage along with all of the nasty divisions over the issue of polyamorous people as their relationship to the LGBT movement is not firmly established.

Had you discussed Polyamory at all before this?

1. Is polygamy a subject of relevance to the LGBT community?

In passing. It's not so much important to LGBT individuals as it is Poly individuals, who may or may not be accepted as part of the LGBT movement by any particular group or supported by them regardless of whether they're seen as part of the movement.

2. Would the legalization of polygamous marriage in the United States have any effect other than the validation of the practices of certain sects of the Mormon church?

Yes. It'd require an overhaul of property inheritance laws and divorce law.

Aw. I didn't even make it in on the first page of the new thread. :smallannoyed:

*pat pat* There, there. We still want you around regardless. :smallwink:

Also, hi? I keep meaning to post here, but yeah...

Welcome! :smallbiggrin:

My real confusion was concerning the very hostile reaction of normally accepting people towards the issue. I can't think of why it would be especially touchy, especially for an LGBT and Ally crowd.

Just because one supports/wants same-sex marriage doesn't mean one supports/wants multiple-partner marriages or multiple marriages per partner or both.

Alanzeign

2011-02-10, 12:43 AM

Yea, I was kind of aware that most people arguing the point would use that type of argument. "Hey, if people are allowed to eat pork then people might start eating babies." Just saying it doesn't make much sense, although I guess making logical sense doesn't amount to much when you're talking about change.

ArlEammon

2011-02-10, 12:56 AM

Can I Haz PM pleazz!! :(

I need someone to talk to and I feel like crap.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-10, 12:57 AM

Can I Haz PM pleazz!! :(

I need someone to talk to and I feel like crap.

I'm not sure how much help I'll be, but I'll try.

celtois

2011-02-10, 01:10 AM

Can I Haz PM pleazz!! :(

I need someone to talk to and I feel like crap.

In case you still need another person to talk to I'd be glad to lend an ear. :smallsmile:

ArlEammon

2011-02-10, 01:12 AM

PM sent. :)

Glad to see such concern.

Alanzeign

2011-02-10, 01:18 AM

Hope you feel better. I'll be around for an hour or two if you need to talk as well.

Edit: Looks like you have some chat buddies though. :smallsmile:

turkishproverb

2011-02-10, 02:21 AM

*pat pat* There, there. We still want you around regardless. :smallwink:

Yay. I is wanted. :smallsmile:

Rainbow Servant

2011-02-10, 04:47 AM

Heliomance

2011-02-10, 05:25 AM

polyarmoury

Is that when you give weapons to parrots?

Coidzor

2011-02-10, 06:47 AM

Is that when you give weapons to parrots?

Well, we're already arming bears... :smallamused:

KenderWizard

2011-02-10, 12:01 PM

Yay for hugs and cookies! I should have dropped by sooner.

So, ummmm, here's something relevant. I've never "officially" come out to my parents - they know I'm gay, I know they know, they know I know they know, and so on and so forth.
It just hasn't been raised in conversation ever... partly because I'm vehemently against the idea that I need to point out to everyone that I'm somehow different, but anyhoo. That can be talked about some other time.
All that baggage aside, I think that because I haven't actually said anything, they're avoiding bringing up anything to do with it in conversation out of some sort of politesse.
Now, on the one hand, I don't have to put up with "So are you seeing anyone?" which I always found really annoying... but I don't want them to feel they can't talk to me about it.
So! They're visiting me next weekend and I'm thinking at some point I should just say "You know I'm gay, right?"... but the phrasing is... awkward.
Ideas for a nicer way to say it?

Maybe you should say that you really like being able to talk to them about stuff, in a general way, especially now you're not living with them (I'm making assumptions here), and you hope they feel the same way. You want to be able to talk to them about life, work, relationships, etc, even as an independent adult, and you still have a special place for them. Then you could say you thought it was nice of them not to badger you when it became apparent that you had an non-standard sexuality. Or something. It's hard to know without knowing about your relationship with them. I think you should just be open with them and tell them exactly what you want them to know, if you think things are vague between you.

Callista

2011-02-10, 02:16 PM

Maybe there could be a legal way to declare yourself a "household"--that wouldn't include just group marriages, but your parents staying with you or your grown children or your siblings sharing a house--with the usual joint bank accounts, group tax returns, etc.

What would worry me though would be that it might get taken advantage of by people to control other people's finances. That already happens with regular marriages, in abusive relationships; but now think if you have ten people in a group marriage... I dunno, it could almost work like a cult, because not only do you have two people influencing each other; now you have the whole group dynamics issue that can totally overwhelm a single person. I think for now we ought to keep it to two people, see how that works out, and figure it out as we go along.

Slow change is best because if we change too quickly we might end up making laws that hurt people without realizing it. There's no laws against people living together in groups without marrying legally, and I'd rather err on the side of caution before doing anything that would make it easier for the sociopathic sorts to dominate other people.

Danne

2011-02-10, 02:40 PM

Yay for hugs and cookies! I should have dropped by sooner.

So, ummmm, here's something relevant. I've never "officially" come out to my parents - they know I'm gay, I know they know, they know I know they know, and so on and so forth.
It just hasn't been raised in conversation ever... partly because I'm vehemently against the idea that I need to point out to everyone that I'm somehow different, but anyhoo. That can be talked about some other time.
All that baggage aside, I think that because I haven't actually said anything, they're avoiding bringing up anything to do with it in conversation out of some sort of politesse.
Now, on the one hand, I don't have to put up with "So are you seeing anyone?" which I always found really annoying... but I don't want them to feel they can't talk to me about it.
So! They're visiting me next weekend and I'm thinking at some point I should just say "You know I'm gay, right?"... but the phrasing is... awkward.
Ideas for a nicer way to say it?

In all honesty, if you think it's going to be any sort of a Big Deal, it's probably best to just be direct about it. My observations indicate that people like you to be straight with them (pun not intended) instead of dancing about the subject trying to be polite. I find it helps me if I write down what I'm going to say first. That way, even if the conversation deviates from the script (it usually does) I still going into it feeling prepared.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-10, 04:39 PM

Is that when you give weapons to parrots?

Quite possibly. It seems more likely I need to start using a spellchecker on my posts because I seem to like including letters I didn't mean to. :smalltongue:

At least I spelt it right the first time.

Rainbow Servant

2011-02-10, 05:35 PM

Maybe you should say that you really like being able to talk to them about stuff, in a general way, especially now you're not living with them (I'm making assumptions here), and you hope they feel the same way. You want to be able to talk to them about life, work, relationships, etc, even as an independent adult, and you still have a special place for them. Then you could say you thought it was nice of them not to badger you when it became apparent that you had an non-standard sexuality. Or something. It's hard to know without knowing about your relationship with them. I think you should just be open with them and tell them exactly what you want them to know, if you think things are vague between you.
Your assumptions are correct!

In all honesty, if you think it's going to be any sort of a Big Deal, it's probably best to just be direct about it. My observations indicate that people like you to be straight with them (pun not intended) instead of dancing about the subject trying to be polite. I find it helps me if I write down what I'm going to say first. That way, even if the conversation deviates from the script (it usually does) I still going into it feeling prepared.
See, it's not a Big Deal though, and I don't want to inadvertently turn it into one. Which is probably why I've never brought it up. (This would be so much easier if I had a serious boyfriend I could just introduce them to.)

Welp, thanks both, I think you've given me enough to think about that I can sort this out. Go go gadget teamwork!

Also, parrots really don't need any extra weapons, those beaks can be dangerous enough as is.

Kneenibble

2011-02-10, 06:01 PM

Ah, the gay old times. I looked at a photograph today from 1930 showing a "protest party" at the University where I work. A group of young men in formal dress with their dates -- young men in drag. They all look so wonderful: some of the drag is camp, yes, but some of it is damn good too. Even in 1930, there's "boob" grabbage and some pretty borderless cuddling between the pairs. This is a treasure. I'm slowly building up a battery of archivaria to write a novel about turn-of-the-[20th]century male love in this place.

The students were protesting the separate seating of the sexes at formal college events. There is an interesting play of x-social/x-sexual to be close-read there.

I'd post the photo but for possible legal issues that complicate this particular collection, in spite of its age.

Hope someone finds this as interesting as I do.

Worira

2011-02-10, 08:22 PM

Hey look it's that Canada (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhYyAa0VnyY)

turkishproverb

2011-02-10, 09:45 PM

Is that when you give weapons to parrots?

Now joke funny.

Well, we're already arming bears... :smallamused:

Old Joke funny.

It's all good.

Derjuin

2011-02-10, 10:01 PM

I've been thinking recently...I haven't tried to advance any of my goals regarding transition since I came out to my parents (who have all but completely forgotten about it...or are ignoring it, but I prefer to think of them forgetting rather than ignoring...). Not for lack of a certain brand of motivation, I get a bit of reinforcement from those I really care about; but, there's close to nothing close by resource-wise that I can take advantage of. Inexperienced (in gender studies) psychiatrists, no transition programs, no college groups (the one in my school closed down because we had 2 members, the president-secretary and the vicepresident-treasurer)... Unless there's some kind of hidden-in-the-woodworks group, this area is pretty much devoid of aid for trans individuals.

It's a little depressing that the closest place I can go to even talk about my issues with someone who isn't 99% in the dark is over two and a half hours away, in Rehoboth, Delaware. Then, once I get there, I don't even know what to talk about. I've been horrible at expressing myself for a very long time, ever since I was a kid I'd wager.

I don't know :smallfrown: I guess I'm just complaining here about how hopeless my situation feels, living with a family that forgets about me occasionally (and forgets things about me), and being unable to access face-to-face help.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 01:53 AM

*snip* *snip* *snip*

*Breaks out the hugs and cookies*

That's rough. I know it's bad enough for people in big, "cultured" cities trying to transistion (the local LGBT group here is a little lacking in support for the T, according to people who would know better than me), so I can imagine how difficult it is somewhere like you seem to live.

If you want someone to talk to you're always welcome to PM me. I've also heard a lot of good things about TS Roadmap (http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html) - which IIRC has a section on what/how to talk about certain things that might be of some help to you. It might also help you find any hidden resources near you.

golentan

2011-02-11, 02:21 AM

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 02:23 AM

Look forward to the super-cheap chocolate on the days after it!

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 02:24 AM

Okay, entering Superfunk mode and could use you guys to snap me out of it.

Valentine's day always gets under my skin, and I am rapidly reaching "lose will to live" levels of depression because of it.

:smalleek: What does Valentines day do to do that to you?

I'm willing to listen if you have anything you need to say.

golentan

2011-02-11, 02:51 AM

Mmm... Chocolate.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 03:09 AM

Maybe just imagine everything red or pink is actually on fire. That will also help you feel warm if you're anything like me and can't stand the cold this time of year (unless you live someplace nice and warm, like I have recently moved to).

This also sounds dumb, but it can help if you use the holiday as an affirmation of love for yourself and that you do indeed have the strength not to need someone else to feel good about yourself.

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 03:12 AM

OR, just remember that it's all a money-making exercise by Hallmark, and mock all those silly people buying into their cynical scheme.

And then stock up on cheap chocolate the day after.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 03:17 AM

And then stock up on cheap chocolate the day after.

Are you hinting to someone that you want some chocolate? :smallconfused:

Or do you just like chocolate that much? 'Cause I totally do too! It is entirely the best part of any overcommercialized holiday!

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 03:20 AM

It's pretty much the only interest I have in Valentine's Day.

golentan

2011-02-11, 03:40 AM

I'm going to focus on the chocolate. That one's potentially true. Discount chocolate mmm... :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2011-02-11, 03:42 AM

(buys chocolate for Serpentine?)

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 03:43 AM

...what sort? =.=

golentan

2011-02-11, 03:45 AM

...what sort? =.=

Would you welcome Coconut Creams?

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 03:46 AM

Eeeeeeh... Can do better :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-02-11, 03:47 AM

Than coconut cream filled chocolate? I don't know you anymore!

Fine then, what would you prefer, coconut hater?

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 03:49 AM

*pouts at Lix*

No chocolates for me?

Also, while we're derailed due to Serpentine:

>leaves<
>inconspicuously<
>out the window<

I read this the other day and found it amusing that you've stuck around despite ending your first post in this series of threads with that quoted text. Also, it wouldn't be the same without you. Your snakeyness is an inspiration. :smallwink:

Coidzor

2011-02-11, 03:49 AM

It's pretty much the only interest I have in Valentine's Day.

Aww. That's too bad. The other aspect of V-Day just begs to be mixed with chocolate. :smallfrown:

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 03:50 AM

I am very fond of good quality dark chocolate cherry liqueres*...

*Preferably with correct spelling

edit @ Rayne: Ha! Doing a bit of archive delving, eh? :smallamused: I hope you got my reference =.=

Coidzor

2011-02-11, 03:52 AM

edit @ Rayne: Ha! Doing a bit of archive delving, eh? :smallamused: I hope you got my reference =.=

Was it Problem Sleuth?

...Does chocolate-cherry liqueur really count as a chocolate though? It seems more like a beverage.

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 03:55 AM

Was it Problem Sleuth?No. No it was not.
...Does chocolate-cherry liqueur really count as a chocolate though? It seems more like a beverage.:smallconfused:
Cherry liquor chocolates:

https://www.bechoctomistic.com/catalog/images/cherry_liquor_3.jpg

golentan

2011-02-11, 04:21 AM

Hmm... Now Golentan is at a crossroads. He can take this as a challenge and actually have such chocolates delivered to serpentine, losing his sadness temporarily in favor of the exercise. And in doing so become that incredibly creepy guy who he knows he must quash at all times at least momentarily. Or he can let it go and nobody ever need know the extent of his creepiness.

Opinions, Serp (I.E. how much would you actually like non-internet chocolates)?

Coidzor

2011-02-11, 04:27 AM

:smallconfused: ...I think that bridge was dealt with when you got her mailing address, mate. Whether or not it's creepy is pretty much already determined by having it in the first place. Acting upon it is pretty much secondary at this point.

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 04:29 AM

...he got my mailing address? :smalleek:

I will not say no to free chockies :smalltongue: I mean, not if it makes you feel better. Just looking out for you, of course :smallwink:

golentan

2011-02-11, 04:31 AM

I don't have it... Yet.

I overenthused myself again, didn't I? :smallfrown:

Edit: Evidently not? Okay then. Chocolates for Serpentine. I can fit maybe 3 other people in on this if anyone would like? :smallbiggrin:

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 04:35 AM

Huzzah! :biggrin:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 04:38 AM

Sorry. I would, but it's awkward explaining to parents how you get free anything in the mail.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 04:54 AM

edit @ Rayne: Ha! Doing a bit of archive delving, eh? :smallamused: I hope you got my reference =.=

I'm not sure... the only thing I can think of is the sterotypical illicit lover escaping the wrathful parents/husband by jumping out the window.

Care to elaborate for those of us who are now fatally curious?

Also: cherry chocolates are amazing... *drools*

Edit: wait... free chocolates!? Er... I'm kinda tempted, but don't want to impose, either.

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 04:57 AM

Tsk tsk tsk. I require that you go educate yourself by watching the original Batman movie.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 05:00 AM

Ahh... yeah, that scene's not one that sticks out that much for me. Good ol' Bats is always doing that, though.

turkishproverb

2011-02-11, 05:01 AM

Look forward to the super-cheap chocolate on the days after it!

OR, just remember that it's all a money-making exercise by Hallmark, and mock all those silly people buying into their cynical scheme.

And then stock up on cheap chocolate the day after.

Someone likes chocolate.

I recommend movies on that day if it gets you down. Seasonal movies inappropriate to the Holiday. Like Hogfather. everything is better with Hogfather.

Coidzor

2011-02-11, 05:07 AM

I need to see that, actually. So bad. So very, very bad. T_T

turkishproverb

2011-02-11, 05:10 AM

I need to see that, actually. So bad. So very, very bad. T_T

It is an absolutely wonderful movie. You'll crack up and get all warm and fuzzy when they reference the little match girl.

Lix Lorn

2011-02-11, 06:53 AM

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 07:01 AM

Uuuuh... I'm in Australia. Unless you're living in Australia or a Pacific Island, there's gonna be an ocean between us :smallwink:
And I'm preeeetty sure Golly's not in Australia.
Which makes it extra-awesome, of course.

Asta Kask

2011-02-11, 07:24 AM

Won't your Boy get into a manly huff about you receiving chocolate from strange men across the sea, serp?

Heliomance

2011-02-11, 07:31 AM

Okay, entering Superfunk mode and could use you guys to snap me out of it.

Valentine's day always gets under my skin, and I am rapidly reaching "lose will to live" levels of depression because of it.

Ignore Valentines Day, focus on the fact that it's almost Pancake Day.

Alternatively, celebrate thoroughly that it is the saint day of Saint Valentine, the patron saint of beekeepers ^_^

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 07:34 AM

Won't your Boy get into a manly huff about you receiving chocolate from strange men across the sea, serp?I'll bribe him with mystery chocolate.

edit: I'm tossing up between requesting the most ridiculously over-the-top sappy V-Day card with it, or the most ridiculously inappropriate one :smalltongue:

Rawhide

2011-02-11, 07:44 AM

I'll bribe him with mystery chocolate.

edit: I'm tossing up between requesting the most ridiculously over-the-top sappy V-Day card with it, or the most ridiculously inappropriate one :smalltongue:

Hmmmmmmmz. (http://imakeprojects.com/Projects/bleeding-heart/)

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 07:50 AM

HEEEEE! :biggrin:

Kneenibble

2011-02-11, 12:29 PM

An addendum to my previous post -- found also a photograph, circa 1915, in an album being processed, donated by an alumna's daughter: two young women in what seems to be a very intimate kiss. We're talking holding hands, breasts smushed together, heads both tilted diagonally, lip-locked ladies. It's glued to the album page and I can't get underneath to see if there's a caption.

Is it just me, or is that quite provocative for its age?! It's taken out in the country, too, in what I know to be a conservative agricultural area. - then and now. They're wearing their hair up, full blouses, long skirts, & scarves. Granted, at least one of these women wound up in a (comparatively) big-city college, but still...

Homoerotic or just friendly? Fashionable bisexuality, to my knowledge, was not in vogue in the 1910s.

bluewind95

2011-02-11, 12:40 PM

Asta Kask

2011-02-11, 01:32 PM

I think this is the one for me.

http://thephoenix.com/community/polls/photos/arts/images/721753/300x300.aspx

Now if I only had someone to send to... :smallfrown:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 01:51 PM

*sigh* I'm tired of waiting. I'm just going to come out and say it.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10291316&postcount=1199) message was me.

bluewind95

2011-02-11, 02:08 PM

I wish I had any sort of decent advice...

Anyways... I don't think it's really fair for you (or anyone) to say you can "grow out of" such feelings. Kind of makes it seem like it's immature to feel that way. I think it's possible sometimes they may change. But I'm not sure it's so much "growing out" as simply... well... you changing. So don't feel pressured about it.

I'd say, take your time to figure it out. It's not a child's thing, or a teenager's thing. It's a person's thing, feeling that way. There is some doubt in your mind, it seems. You should see if it is fear of the unknown, or actual identity doubts. Try to think of yourself in both genders/sex (I'm still iffy on the use of both words, mainly because, at least when I speak, I take them as synonyms and just pick the proper definition by context... I dunno which the right word here is). See which feels more natural. Find yourself out.

And if you could talk to a specialist in gender identity and such, I think it would be helpful. Such a specialist would surely know how to put you on the path to figuring yourself out. At any rate... best of luck in this.

Asta Kask

2011-02-11, 02:10 PM

So... what pronoun do you want us to use?

And congratulations on 'coming out'!

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 02:12 PM

Asta Kask

2011-02-11, 02:14 PM

Ok, will do.

bluewind95

2011-02-11, 02:17 PM

Sorry. Poor choice of words by me late at night.

Oh, don't apologize. I meant the attitude behind the very origin of that phrase. I was trying to say don't feel like you have to grow out of it and don't let people convince you you have to "grow out" of it. I don't think it's fair for people to be made to think how there must be something wrong with them for feeling that way... or that they're immature, or whatnot. Sorry, I'm not great at explaining myself sometimes.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 02:23 PM

*sigh* I'm tired of waiting. I'm just going to come out and say it.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10291316&postcount=1199) message was me.

*hugs*

*offers cookies to her*

Cookies: say things words have trouble expressing.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 02:24 PM

*hugs*

*offers cookies to her*

Cookies: say things words have trouble expressing.

*hugs back*

Thanks for the cookies.:smallsmile:

Mina Kobold

2011-02-11, 02:38 PM

I know this is kind of redundant but I feel it will help. *Hugs Kyuubi*

...

>.>
<.<

Uhm, hi, I'm, ah, Look!

*Tries to escape through skylight*

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 02:40 PM

I know this is kind of redundant but I feel it will help. *Hugs Kyuubi* Hugs always help!

...

>.>
<.<

Uhm, hi, I'm, ah, Look!

*Tries to escape through skylight*

:smallconfused:

VioletRice

2011-02-11, 02:44 PM

*sigh* I'm tired of waiting. I'm just going to come out and say it.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10291316&postcount=1199) message was me.

*glomps*

*offers cake, since you already have cookies (it's not a lie)*

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 02:58 PM

*glomps*

*offers cake, since you already have cookies (it's not a lie)*

Thank you.

Thanks everybody. :smile:

Mina Kobold

2011-02-11, 03:08 PM

Hugs always help!

Of course they do, they're hugs! ^.^

:smallconfused:

How'd you expect me to react to realising there's a thread full of people that just read me running in and hugging someone while wearing an Edwardian dress? :3

Thanks everybody. :smile:

You're welcome. :smallsmile:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 03:10 PM

How'd you expect me to react to realising there's a thread full of people that just read me running in and hugging someone while wearing an Edwardian dress? :3

Ah.

There's only one problem I can see.

You're supposed to say Is that a demonic duck of some sort? (http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2002-04-22):smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2011-02-11, 03:10 PM

How'd you expect me to react to realising there's a thread full of people that just read me running in and hugging someone while wearing an Edwardian dress? :3
Ask for more hugs? Dress suits you. :smallsmile:

Mina Kobold

2011-02-11, 03:33 PM

Ah.

There's only one problem I can see.

You're supposed to say Is that a demonic duck of some sort? (http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2002-04-22):smalltongue:

I didn't because I wanted to give him a break after he fell out that car (http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2010-05-03) of course.

<.<
>.>

Definitely didn't forget.

Ask for more hugs? Dress suits you. :smallsmile:

Excellent point, Lixie. Only one problem.

*Hugs Lix, then everybody here and at last everybody not here*

I don't ask. ~_^

And thanks, maybe I should get a real one? This one's kind of hard to wear outside of the Internet. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2011-02-11, 03:41 PM

Heh. Hugs rock.
You totally should? I bet it'd suit you!
(has no idea if it'd suit you)

KenderWizard

2011-02-11, 03:41 PM

*hugs Kyuubi* It's really brave of you to confront this honestly, I hope you can... settle somewhere comfortable?

FlashRah

2011-02-11, 04:08 PM

Asta Kask

2011-02-11, 04:13 PM

You could give her an encouraging wave with your hand?

"glomp", as I understand it is a cross between a hug and a flying tackle.

Lix Lorn

2011-02-11, 04:14 PM

A glomp is a high-velocity tackle-hug.

FlashRah

2011-02-11, 04:16 PM

That sounds rude and annoying

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 04:18 PM

That sounds rude and annoying

Depends on your point of view.

Tono

2011-02-11, 04:21 PM

That sounds rude and annoying

Its pouring all of your love in one giant hug of a tackle. It has though, been known to break the spines of weaker people.

I can see how it would be annoying if you didn't know or like the person though.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-11, 04:36 PM

I can't stand hugs. Kisses hello are even worse. Handshakes are mildly annoying.

Look unless my life is in danger or you're my boyfriend physical contant will be met with a "Please stop that sir/ma'am" from me.

That's almost a complete opposite of me! :o

Except the kissing part, I love romantic sweetness but touching somebody's saliva with my libs is 70% likely to squick me out and 10% likely to make me trip over myself. ^.^'

Hugging and handshakes are nice, though. And an excellent way to make me jump thre feet in th air. :smalltongue:

Derjuin

2011-02-11, 04:44 PM

*hugs and tortes for Kyuubi*

I hope you are able to figure everything out for yourself soon! Also, while I can't profess any experience with sitting down and talking to professionals that have experience in the field of gender studies, a meeting with a specialist will probably help a lot. Not only in figuring things out, but also feeling comfortable about it and learning about ways to transition relative to your location.

Asta Kask

2011-02-11, 05:04 PM

Come to think of it, how common is it that people decide they're transgendered and then change their minds?

golentan

2011-02-11, 06:44 PM

No Kyuubi, NOOOO!!! Now your avatar isn't genderbent for Genderbender week. This will have to be rectified?

I have no other complaints on the matter.

Well, I hope you feel good about coming out? *hugs*

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 06:47 PM

No Kyuubi, NOOOO!!! Now your avatar isn't genderbent for Genderbender week. This will have to be rectified?

I think it works anyway. There will be a follow up comic to that avatar once gender bending week is over too.

I have no other complaints on the matter.

Well, I hope you feel good about coming out? *hugs*
Yeah, definitely feeling better about it.

turkishproverb

2011-02-11, 06:54 PM

*sigh* I'm tired of waiting. I'm just going to come out and say it.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10291316&postcount=1199) message was me.

*hugs* I first approached this thread in a similar manner. Welcome!

Rawhide

2011-02-11, 07:34 PM

Behold, the perfect glomp. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrer6nVXaGM) Stop the video at 1:30.

RaggedAngel

2011-02-11, 08:55 PM

Behold, the perfect glomp. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrer6nVXaGM) Stop the video at 1:30.

That-that's glorious. I feel the urge to emulate this. *leaves*

*returns* That was indeed fun. As a side (and on-topic :smallsmile:) note, why do you think that the LGBT crowd likes hugs and physical comfort a bit more than the non-LGBT crowd?

That said, it may just be that I'm a lover of hugs, and I hang out with LGBT people. Is this a trend that you all have noticed?

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 09:05 PM

Do we? Maybe it would be because we don't feel as much need to maintain the kinds of facades that prevent other people from expressing their desire for such acts. Like the whole macho manly man stereotype that straight men have to endure.

turkishproverb

2011-02-11, 09:32 PM

That-that's glorious. I feel the urge to emulate this. *leaves*

*returns* That was indeed fun. As a side (and on-topic :smallsmile:) note, why do you think that the LGBT crowd likes hugs and physical comfort a bit more than the non-LGBT crowd?

That said, it may just be that I'm a lover of hugs, and I hang out with LGBT people. Is this a trend that you all have noticed?

We do? I hate being touched most of the time.

golentan

2011-02-11, 09:39 PM

Because shish-kabobs.

Note: This is hilarious for anyone who knows my close friends.

Blue Ghost

2011-02-11, 09:49 PM

Do you? We'll need more scientific data to be sure. I'm non-LGBT, and I am extremely fond of a hug from a friend. Unfortunately, I don't know how to initiate a hug, and most people aren't that eager to give a hug to a male. :smallfrown:

Thufir

2011-02-11, 09:53 PM

Unfortunately, I don't know how to initiate a hug,

Typically, it is done by opening one's arms wwhile facing the prospective huggee.

Blue Ghost

2011-02-11, 09:55 PM

Typically, it is done by opening one's arms wwhile facing the prospective huggee.

I'm always afraid they won't be willing to accept a hug though. For girls it seems to come so naturally, they just meet and they hug. I wish I could do that.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-11, 09:57 PM

Typically, it is done by opening one's arms wwhile facing the prospective huggee.

At which point the prospective huggee shies away because they suspect you're going to try to eat them....

What do you mean that doesn't happen to you? :smallconfused:

Edit @ ^ - people are usually quite good about accepting hugs, or are at least very tactful about declining them. If someone declines, don't take it personally, they may just not feel like being all touchy-feely at that moment.

CrimsonAngel

2011-02-11, 10:07 PM

Edit @ ^ - people are usually quite good about accepting hugs, or are at least very tactful about declining them. If someone declines, don't take it personally, they may just not feel like being all touchy-feely at that moment.

Have you ever typed *hug* anywhere near HalfTangible? :smallconfused: He flips out and goes on about not wanting to be touched. Over the internet.

Aww, I'll hug you, Blue. :smallbiggrin:

turkishproverb

2011-02-11, 10:26 PM

At which point the prospective huggee shies away because they suspect you're going to try to eat them....

:mitd: Why would they want to eat them?

Edit @ ^ - people are usually quite good about accepting hugs, or are at least very tactful about declining them. If someone declines, don't take it personally, they may just not feel like being all touchy-feely at that moment.

It could just mean that they are bad about being touched.

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 11:11 PM

Uh... I thought Kyuubi was already "out" in this regard? :smallconfused:

{Scrubbed}

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 11:26 PM

Uh... I thought Kyuubi was already "out" in this regard? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused: Nope. Don't recall ever bringing this up, and none of my LGBTAitp friends on AIM seem to have known either.

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 11:30 PM

Buuuut... Maybe I just didn't read it right, but you've been biologically-male-female-persona/preferred for, like, ever :smallconfused:

Going back a bunch of conversations, Yet Another Fantasy Comic has some queer mentions. Nothing major or anything, just an Evil Bisexual (like, really evil. And most people with bisexual tendencies tend to be the promiscuous varieties) and a reasonably well-done homosexual relationship or two, but it's there.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-11, 11:32 PM

Buuuut... Maybe I just didn't read it right, but you've been biologically-male-female-persona/preferred for, like, ever :smallconfused:

:smallconfused: I don't recall that either. Maybe I'm just crazy?

Serpentine

2011-02-11, 11:41 PM

Ionno. Pretty anticlimactic revelation for me, anyway :smalltongue:

CrimsonAngel

2011-02-11, 11:45 PM

Hi, Kyuubi.

Guy I mentioned before? He's dating some girl I've never heard of.

Heliomance

2011-02-11, 11:57 PM

I should really get round to looking into finding out about seeing a gender therapist one of these days...

Danne

2011-02-11, 11:58 PM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

"...private schools [can] expel gay students simply for being gay..."

"...the right of a private school to sack a teacher for becoming a single mother..."

What is this I don't even... :smalleek:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-12, 12:00 AM

"...private schools [can] expel gay students simply for being gay..."

"...the right of a private school to sack a teacher for becoming a single mother..."

What is this I don't even... :smalleek:

My reaction exactly.:smallfurious:

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 12:16 AM

Typically, it is done by opening one's arms wwhile facing the prospective huggee.

What? You're forgetting the ritualistic bowing and the dance of asking for permission to hug!

Uh... I thought Kyuubi was already "out" in this regard? :smallconfused:

...Come to think of it, me too. :smallconfused: How odd.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

What took 'em?

Serpentine

2011-02-12, 12:28 AM

{Scrubbed}

Mina Kobold

2011-02-12, 03:14 AM

I'm always afraid they won't be willing to accept a hug though. For girls it seems to come so naturally, they just meet and they hug. I wish I could do that.

The solution to that problem is obviously a TF gun! Then no awkwardness could stop our hugs!!

What? Just hug people and ignore the weird looks? Blasphemy! :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-02-12, 03:47 AM

Hugs for everyone forever! I'm not letting myself be sad, nosirree!

Also, SHAME australia. SHAME.

Serpentine

2011-02-12, 07:22 AM

*sniffle* :smallfrown:
But hey! We did just recently [political stuff relating to the party mentioned in that article that I can't actually discuss here], so that's something, right?!

Lioness

2011-02-12, 07:54 AM

Kyuubi: HUGS!

And I'm sort of with Serp...I've always imagined you as female.

Lix Lorn

2011-02-12, 08:58 AM

I didn't have a clue...
Anyone having trouble getting enough hugs? Go to an anime convention. There are dozens of cute guys and hundreds of cute girls with free hug signs!
Also a Lix if you're at the right one. xD

Ouch. Well, I'm sure Australia will be fixing this soon? :smallfrown:

Murdim

2011-02-12, 09:48 AM

I was skimming through the previous LGBTitp thread for some unrelated reason, and I just found this :

wait, you aren't a girl? no, offense. That's just the impression I got.
I find it funny that nearly the same thing is happening to Kyuubi herself now, with people surprised to learn that she wasn't out yet :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I must say that I've always thought of you as some kind of gender-variant. Must have been the lack of gender icon.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-12, 10:37 AM

Anyway, I must say that I've always thought of you as some kind of gender-variant. Must have been the lack of gender icon.

I don't have a gender icon either...

Sooo, anyway. I wonder if there's a kind of denominator for people who don't fit either gender?

Not at all related to the plans for robot moon-citizens that I most certainly does not have. >.>

Serpentine

2011-02-12, 10:39 AM

Sooo, anyway. I wonder if there's a kind of denominator for people who don't fit either gender?An individual human who has chosen not to buy into the obsolete cultural construct of sex-bound expectations called "gender".
[Insert Name Here], for short.

Man, I'm getting repetitive...

Lix Lorn

2011-02-12, 11:04 AM

So!
A link to TVT ended up with me finding something that makes me really happy. ^^
Any other Ts will probably appreciate it. (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html)

Mina Kobold

2011-02-12, 11:15 AM

An individual human who has chosen not to buy into the obsolete cultural construct of sex-bound expectations called "gender".
[Insert Name Here], for short.

Man, I'm getting repetitive...

I thought gender was an obsolete biological contruct that's supposed to make sure we have more organic lawn-mowers and walking devices?

Just curious. :smallsmile:

Then again, if my avatar is accurate then I descent from spilled dragon blood so my knowledge of biology and human culture may be limited. :smalltongue:

Asta Kask

2011-02-12, 11:30 AM

Ionno. Pretty anticlimactic revelation for me, anyway :smalltongue:

Ok. I'm an 8 foot tall reptilian from the constellation Draco, here to ensure to continuing enslavement of humanity.

Climactic enough? :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-02-12, 12:40 PM

Ok. I'm an 8 foot tall reptilian from the constellation Draco, here to ensure to continuing enslavement of humanity.

Climactic enough? :smalltongue:

Nah. We've already had revelations of alien life in this thread. First contact's been made, we're passe now.

Murdim

2011-02-12, 02:03 PM

An individual human who has chosen not to buy into the obsolete cultural construct of sex-bound expectations called "gender".
[Insert Name Here], for short.
What about individuals who do not buy into the obsolete concept of gender, but who nonetheless identify with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex ?

... actually, the more I think about it, the more it feels like ungood doublethink. Yeah. Still trying to find a good way to address the question of gender as an indifferently cissexual person.

Ok. I'm an 8 foot tall reptilian from the constellation Draco, here to ensure to continuing enslavement of humanity.

Climactic enough? :smalltongue:
That's not climatic, it's... scandalous ! Atrocious ! Unacceptable ! Egregious !

How can an alien from Alpha (or Beta, or whatever) Draconis be a reptilian ? This goes against every law in phylogenetics ! :smallmad:

I thought gender was an obsolete biological contruct that's supposed to make sure we have more organic lawn-mowers and walking devices?

It's not just that. Consumeristic forces support the notion of gender, and are keeping it alive in order to still be able to sell all their gender-segregated junk. With the help of mind-affecting electomagnetic waves. Always keep your tinfoil hat on, playgrounders !

unosarta

2011-02-12, 02:17 PM

Nah. We've already had revelations of alien life in this thread. First contact's been made, we're passe now.

I wonder if alien life has so much drama in their sexuality/gender issues?

Asta Kask

2011-02-12, 02:25 PM

Depends on how they reproduce, I s'pose. How many sexes, how much sexual dimorphism, etc.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-12, 02:35 PM

I wonder if alien life has so much drama in their sexuality/gender issues?

Yes.

I checked. ^.^

Somehow every species past the feudal age has this much drama in sexuality/gender issues, social life and fixing toasters. O.O

Even the species that has no genders, no toasters and share a hivemind somehow have drama in all of those. :smalltongue:

unosarta

2011-02-12, 02:38 PM

Even the species that has no genders, no toasters and share a hivemind somehow have drama in all of those. :smalltongue:

Maybe they have meta-drama, like they have a bunch of drama about not having drama about those subjects.

Frozen_Feet

2011-02-12, 02:41 PM

Sooo, anyway. I wonder if there's a kind of denominator for people who don't fit either gender?

If you really want a fitting denominator, I think we'd need to know how they don't fit either gender. I can perceive a continuum where on one end, there are people who are too masculine and too feminine to be considered just one (androgynous), and on the other there are those who are too lacking in both kind of qualities to qualify as either (neutral).

Or you can just go with Serp's advice. :smalltongue:

Heliomance

2011-02-12, 02:41 PM

An individual human who has chosen not to buy into the obsolete cultural construct of sex-bound expectations called "gender".
[Insert Name Here], for short.

However, the linguistic customs of the English language make constantly referring to someone by their name and eschewing pronouns sound awkward and contrived. Japanese can manage it, English not so much.

unosarta

2011-02-12, 02:46 PM

However, the linguistic customs of the English language make constantly referring to someone by their name and eschewing pronouns sound awkward and contrived. Japanese can manage it, English not so much.

Japanese formality almost insists that one use the other person's name. Which makes it very gender friendly. Yay!

Mina Kobold

2011-02-12, 02:57 PM

However, the linguistic customs of the English language make constantly referring to someone by their name and eschewing pronouns sound awkward and contrived. Japanese can manage it, English not so much.

Couldn't you just use Them? I'm pretty sure English used to require that when being formal. :smallsmile:

And I still don't get why it's only cultural. I'm confuzzled. @.@

Frozen_Feet

2011-02-12, 03:05 PM

Thank heavens for Finnish and its gender-neutral pronouns! :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-12, 03:06 PM

I find it funny that nearly the same thing is happening to Kyuubi herself now, with people surprised to learn that she wasn't out yet :smallbiggrin:

Yes, I find that humorous as well.

Thanks for the link Lix!

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 03:17 PM

What about individuals who do not buy into the obsolete concept of gender, but who nonetheless identify with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex ?

... actually, the more I think about it, the more it feels like ungood doublethink. Yeah. Still trying to find a good way to address the question of gender as an indifferently cissexual person.

Possibly the need for it to be already obsolete when a good chunk of the Human populace still live under it and believe it. Kinda failing to see how it's obsolete so much as not applying properly to given individuals.

How can an alien from Alpha (or Beta, or whatever) Draconis be a reptilian ? This goes against every law in phylogenetics ! :smallmad:

The Precursors really liked pet iguanas.

Murdim

2011-02-12, 06:41 PM

Possibly the need for it to be already obsolete when a good chunk of the Human populace still live under it and believe it. Kinda failing to see how it's obsolete so much as not applying properly to given individuals.
... perhaps obsolete isn't the right word. Still, the social notion of gender seems pretty superfluous to me.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-12, 06:50 PM

... perhaps obsolete isn't the right word. Still, the social notion of gender seems pretty superfluous to me.

If you have an Y chromosone you're a boy and if not the you're a girl, simple.

It may not have anything to do with mental gender but it is still a clear distinction of gender outside of social notions.

Or at least that's what I have been taught. :smallredface:

Care to explain what I have missed? :smallsmile:

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 06:53 PM

... perhaps obsolete isn't the right word. Still, the social notion of gender seems pretty superfluous to me.

Well, yeah, but that's getting into theory of mind territory, really.

Lix Lorn

2011-02-12, 07:04 PM

If you have an Y chromosone you're a boy and if not the you're a girl, simple.

It may not have anything to do with mental gender but it is still a clear distinction of gender outside of social notions.

Or at least that's what I have been taught. :smallredface:

Care to explain what I have missed? :smallsmile:
Tell that to intersex people.
NOTHING is simple. NO EXCEPTIONS. No, not even that.

unosarta

2011-02-12, 07:08 PM

NOTHING is simple. NO EXCEPTIONS. No, not even that.

Can I sig this? I swear to gosh, this is so very, very, very, very, very true.

Lix Lorn

2011-02-12, 07:10 PM

Uh. :smallredface:
Sure. It's just two tropes applied to a slightly cynical and way too true sentence...

Heliomance

2011-02-12, 07:21 PM

Couldn't you just use Them? I'm pretty sure English used to require that when being formal. :smallsmile:

And I still don't get why it's only cultural. I'm confuzzled. @.@
Them is nowadays usually used as a plural, and whilst the singular usage is technically also correct, it sounds awkward in most cases.

If you have an Y chromosone you're a boy and if not the you're a girl, simple.

It may not have anything to do with mental gender but it is still a clear distinction of gender outside of social notions.

Or at least that's what I have been taught. :smallredface:

Care to explain what I have missed? :smallsmile:

That's sex, not gender. They're two different things. Sex refers to what's between your legs, gender to what's between your ears.

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 07:42 PM

^: Singular "They" is far more elegant anyway. :smallamused:
Can I sig this? I swear to gosh, this is so very, very, very, very, very true.

Well, death is still pretty final...

unosarta

2011-02-12, 08:07 PM

Well, death is still pretty final...

The conflicted feelings one feels about death, especially that of a loved one who has willed one money. You are sad they are dead, but that money will really help you. Do you feel happy? But isn't that being ungrateful to the dead person? Should you make yourself feel bad about it just to honor their memory? Is that really healthy?

If they are someone you dislike, you might be glad because they were a jerk, but I mean everyone's a person, right? Shouldn't you be sad if they are dead? But if they were really a jerk...

RaggedAngel

2011-02-12, 08:08 PM

That's sex, not gender. They're two different things. Sex refers to what's between your legs, gender to what's between your ears.

My life would be so much easier if people could grasp this.

Also, that's a very concise way to say it. I shall steal your wording, if it's alright with you. :smallsmile:

Mystic Muse

2011-02-12, 08:09 PM

If they are someone you dislike, you might be glad because they were a jerk, but I mean everyone's a person, right? Shouldn't you be sad if they are dead? But if they were really a jerk...

This really depends on the person. There are plenty of people who the world would probably be better off without, but it's kind of hard to know.

Rawhide

2011-02-12, 08:12 PM

That's sex, not gender. They're two different things. Sex refers to what's between your legs, gender to what's between your ears.

This I need to correct. Sex and gender are the exact same thing, even the dictionary says so.

Gender can mean something different than sex, as this quote from The Wiki shows, "Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity", but, as even mentioned in that quote, can mean the exact same thing as sex. Using gender to mean social role and gender identity is a very recent introduction and the old meaning still applies in common use and dictionary definitions.

You can use gender to mean your gender identity (i.e. "I identify as male, even though I am biologically female"), but if someone else uses gender to mean the exact same thing as sex, then you cannot say that they are incorrect.

So, in short, I am by no means saying that you cannot use gender to mean something different to sex (though I would suggest using "gender identity" and "physical/biological gender" anywhere that there might be confusion), but I am saying that people who use sex and gender interchangeably or to mean the same thing are not incorrect.

So, in even shorter, what you are saying is not "gender and sex are different things", but rather, "in the way I use gender, gender and sex are different things" or "in the context of this work/discussion, gender and sex are different things".

P.S. This post has been vetted by SMEE before submission.

unosarta

2011-02-12, 08:13 PM

This really depends on the person. There are plenty of people who the world would probably be better off without, but it's kind of hard to know.

But that doesn't make them any less of people. Everyone is a person, so does any one of us have the right to say whether the world would be better off without them? It might be in the short term to you, but everyone has a connection to someone, and just as your life may feel better because of that death, another person's life may be broken and destroyed, dreams that were built up demolished because of the death.

Death is one of the least simple topics that a person can deal with.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-12, 08:32 PM

But that doesn't make them any less of people. Everyone is a person, so does any one of us have the right to say whether the world would be better off without them? It might be in the short term to you, but everyone has a connection to someone, and just as your life may feel better because of that death, another person's life may be broken and destroyed, dreams that were built up demolished because of the death.

Death is one of the least simple topics that a person can deal with.

Yes, I'm aware. I don't think I can talk about this without going beyond board rules, so I'm just going to drop it.

turkishproverb

2011-02-12, 09:11 PM

This I need to correct. Sex and gender are the exact same thing, even the dictionary says so.

What dictionary? Definitions can vary pretty heavily depending upon the dictionary and the depth it goes into.

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 09:11 PM

The conflicted feelings one feels about death, especially that of a loved one who has willed one money. That's not death. You're talking about the reactions of the living to death rather than death itself. I mentioned the finality of death.

Mostly because I can't stand absolutes.

Death is one of the least simple topics that a person can deal with.

For discussing, maybe. Actually dealing with it is, while generally unpleasant, rather straightforward.

Vaynor

2011-02-12, 09:21 PM

OR, just remember that it's all a money-making exercise by Hallmark, and mock all those silly people buying into their cynical scheme.

And then stock up on cheap chocolate the day after.

Valentine's Day started before Hallmark existed, and long before greeting cards were ever even being mass-produced (there's a margin of about 60-70 years).

Serpentine

2011-02-12, 09:21 PM

edit @ ^: Sure, but was it so obsenely a cynical money-making scene back then, or was it more of a saint's holiday?
I thought gender was an obsolete biological contruct that's supposed to make sure we have more organic lawn-mowers and walking devices?As I've determined before, I have 3 definitions of gender:
1. The obsolete social constructs of expectations and assumptions artificially bound to sex that may or may not have any intrinsic relation to nature - "women should be nurturers".
2. The biological observation of traits and tendencies associated with, but not exclusive to, each of the sexes - "women tend to be more "nurturing" than many men".
3. A transexual's preferred sex, as opposed to their biological. Not relevant here, and I don't use it very much.

So, the biological observation is still relevant, but the cultural construct is not.

What about individuals who do not buy into the obsolete concept of gender, but who nonetheless identify with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex ?Then you're an individual who does not buy into the obsolete concept of gender for whom they happen to fit reasonably well.

However, the linguistic customs of the English language make constantly referring to someone by their name and eschewing pronouns sound awkward and contrived. Japanese can manage it, English not so much.Gender (except in definition 3, above) has nothing to do with gendered pronouns. If a man is "feminine" by cultural expectations, but still considers themself male, then you use "he" for him.

Worira

2011-02-12, 09:29 PM

And why is someone's preferred sex only their gender if they're transsexual? If I'm biologically male, why don't I get to decide that my gender is also male, regardless of my behaviour?

Rawhide

2011-02-12, 09:30 PM

What dictionary? Definitions can vary pretty heavily depending upon the dictionary and the depth it goes into.

Merriam-Webster (an Encyclopaedia Britannica company), WordWeb.info, Dictionary.com Unabridged (Based on the Random House Dictionary), Wikipedia, Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary, WordNet (Princeton University), American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Collins Thesaurus of the English Language, Oxford, Encarta World English Dictionary, the list goes on.

Most of them also address the new meanings of the word (which did not become widespread until the 1970s, according to Wikipedia), but some do not. Most of them also address an even older definition, to do with grammar.

I would also very much appreciate if you quoted and addressed the entire context, rather than that one simple line.

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 09:30 PM

Y'know, I'm starting to think there's some different definitions of obsolete being used here.

Edit: Heh. I just realized something mildly pertinent while looking at the list of thread titles on the sub-forum page.

When we say genderbent, as in that genderbent avatar thread and week we've got going on, we mean giving someone a sex change rather than to spontaneously make them trans by having them experience body dysphoria.

Heliomance

2011-02-12, 09:44 PM

My life would be so much easier if people could grasp this.

Also, that's a very concise way to say it. I shall steal your wording, if it's alright with you. :smallsmile:

Not my wording, don't remember where I got it from.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-12, 09:54 PM

A lot of liturature that has to deal with the complexities of non-binary gender will often state the specific definitions being used in the work for the words "sex" and "gender" - regardless of how they are defined in a dictionary.

Also: in regards to terms for people in between genders - the two words I know that are commonly used are "intersex" and "genderqueer" although they both are kind of specific in who they refer to. If the issue was as to pronouns, I'd like to note that while linguistically I promote singular they, there are also a whole wonderful host of gender neutral pronouns - a link to which is provided in my sig.

If you have an Y chromosone you're a boy and if not the you're a girl, simple.

Yeah... this doesn't work. Specifically, I can point to Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) as disproof. Someone with CAIS has XY chromosomes and even goes as far as to develop testicles rather than ovaries, but otherwise develops as female unitl puberty. At which point the lack of underarm (and other) hair growth becomes a notable discreprency. Interestingly, it would appear the majority of CAIS individuals identify as women even after finding out about the Y chromosome and 'male' gonads. Which would be nice proof that gender is based on how your raised or what is between your legs except that CAIS seems to be an exception amongst intersex conditions in that there appears is a strong consistency in self-determined gender identity.

And do not let me started on Chimerism...

Coidzor

2011-02-12, 10:07 PM

If the issue was as to pronouns, I'd like to note that while linguistically I promote singular they, there are also a whole wonderful host of gender neutral pronouns - a link to which is provided in my sig.

Which is a problem in and of itself. Very few people are willing to learn a new second language that consists entirely of pronouns.

And do not let me started on Chimerism...

Two people being bashed together in the womb is always going to be messy.

Serpentine

2011-02-12, 10:10 PM

And why is someone's preferred sex only their gender if they're transsexual? If I'm biologically male, why don't I get to decide that my gender is also male, regardless of my behaviour?
What? :smallconfused: Those are three distinct definitions. The third one is purely for ease of discussion - when discussing transexuality, it is convenient to have two different terms for biological and preferred sex, and gender can be useful for the latter.
If you're biologically male, and you consider your gender male, then... you're male :smallconfused: Your behaviour doesn't come into it. Which is, you know, my point.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-12, 10:40 PM

Which is a problem in and of itself. Very few people are willing to learn a new second language that consists entirely of pronouns.

Well, I wouldn't say they qualify as a second language, but they are rather user-unfriendly. I don't even bother with "xem" at all, even though it technically is one of the forms of my pronoun of choice.

Two people being bashed together in the womb is always going to be messy.

What's even messier is the science around it. Estimates of frequency that I've heard range from 40 people in the world to one in eight people.

Also, I should note that both of us have been refering to Tetragametic Chimersim. Other types of Chimerism can result from transplants or just from standard pregnacies and are not as messy.

BisectedBrioche

2011-02-12, 10:44 PM

Also, I should note that both of us have been refering to Tetragametic Chimersim. Other types of Chimerism can result from transplants or just from standard pregnacies and are not as messy.

There's also transplanted tree branches, technically. :smallwink:

unosarta

2011-02-12, 10:46 PM

That's not death. You're talking about the reactions of the living to death rather than death itself. I mentioned the finality of death.

Mostly because I can't stand absolutes.

:smallconfused:
How is the reaction to death not an intrinsic part of death? That is like saying, "relationships are not complicated, it is how people react to them that is."

For discussing, maybe. Actually dealing with it is, while generally unpleasant, rather straightforward.
Really? :smallconfused:

Let me give you a personal anecdote so that we are no longer "discussing" it, and actually giving personal examples.

One of my personal friends' friend died several years ago. I was friends with my friend at the time, and he had a hard time of it. His friend had been shot in a drive-by, for completely unrelated reasons (wrong place, wrong time). My friend became bitter for a long time about gang related activities, and I entirely understood his perspective. However, he goes to a school that is filled with gang activity, and people get in fights over gang related topics all. The. Time. He continues to stay at said school, even though the suspected killers of his best friend go to that school.

He had it mostly dealt with, and mostly done. Then, a few weeks ago, we found out that apparently it might have been a different gang entirely, opening up the old wounds, and creating new ones.

I didn't even know this person, and I am intimately affected by his death.

I could give you several others, but they are all very personal (not to me, but the point remains).

CrimsonAngel

2011-02-12, 11:03 PM

One of my personal friends' friend died several years ago. I was friends with my friend at the time, and he had a hard time of it. His friend had been shot in a drive-by, for completely unrelated reasons (wrong place, wrong time). My friend became bitter for a long time about gang related activities, and I entirely understood his perspective. However, he goes to a school that is filled with gang activity, and people get in fights over gang related topics all. The. Time. He continues to stay at said school, even though the suspected killers of his best friend go to that school.

He had it mostly dealt with, and mostly done. Then, a few weeks ago, we found out that apparently it might have been a different gang entirely, opening up the old wounds, and creating new ones.

I didn't even know this person, and I am intimately affected by his death.

I could give you several others, but they are all very personal (not to me, but the point remains).

I still hate people who drink after some ass hole hit my friend with his car. After he ran a stop sign. It was, like, 2pm. She broke her spine and he was charged with manslaughter, later with murder. :smallannoyed:
(I really hate people.)

unosarta

2011-02-12, 11:11 PM

I still hate people who drink after some ass hole hit my friend with his car. After he ran a stop sign. It was, like, 2pm. She broke her spine and he was charged with manslaughter, later with murder. :smallannoyed:
(I really hate people.)
I am really sorry man.

I really hate people who mug a man who is just walking on the street for all $40 dollars in his wallet and leave him on the ground to die. This happened to one of my former friends' dad, and we haven't spoken in a conversation longer than 3 sentences to each other since, after knowing each other for some 6 years.

CrimsonAngel

2011-02-12, 11:14 PM

I am really sorry man.

I really hate people who mug a man who is just walking on the street for all $40 dollars in his wallet and leave him on the ground to die. This happened to one of my former friends' dad, and we haven't spoken in a conversation longer than 3 sentences to each other since, after knowing each other for some 6 years.

Gosh, now I really have high hopes for humanity. :smalltongue:

On an unrelated note: Why do most of my straiht friends not want a baby but I want to be a daddy ssoooo bad? :smallfurious:

unosarta

2011-02-12, 11:33 PM

Gosh, now I really have high hopes for humanity. :smalltongue:
Isn't it great?

On an unrelated note: Why do most of my straiht friends not want a baby but I want to be a daddy ssoooo bad? :smallfurious:

They will. You are in highschool. People rarely actually want children when they are younger, thinking that their lives are ahead of them, and that they have a long time. Also, there is a large social pressure to not have kids when you are young (which brings up a strange point about how society/evolutionary standards seems to shoehole pregnancies into the 20-late 30's range, for some reason [forties/fifties being the point when women start not being fertile]).

Worira

2011-02-12, 11:33 PM

What? :smallconfused: Those are three distinct definitions. The third one is purely for ease of discussion - when discussing transexuality, it is convenient to have two different terms for biological and preferred sex, and gender can be useful for the latter.
If you're biologically male, and you consider your gender male, then... you're male :smallconfused: Your behaviour doesn't come into it. Which is, you know, my point.

Except that according to those definitions, that wouldn't be the case. To break it down:

As I've determined before, I have 3 definitions of gender:
1. The obsolete social constructs of expectations and assumptions artificially bound to sex that may or may not have any intrinsic relation to nature - "women should be nurturers".
2. The biological observation of traits and tendencies associated with, but not exclusive to, each of the sexes - "women tend to be more "nurturing" than many men".

Whether an individual identifies as male or not doesn't impact their gender, by this definition.

3. A transexual's preferred sex, as opposed to their biological. Not relevant here, and I don't use it very much.

And by this one, what gender they identify is only relevant if they're transsexual.

Serpentine

2011-02-12, 11:35 PM

I... honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. I think gender is largely irrelevant in the modern world, and that it shouldn't have any impact on a person's self-identity.

Danne

2011-02-12, 11:38 PM

For discussing, maybe. Actually dealing with it is, while generally unpleasant, rather straightforward.

Um... What? It's not straightforward, it's a maelstrom. You take one step forward, a dozen back. You're perfectly fine one moment and the next you're in tears. You go a few weeks thinking the pain is gone and then you suddenly realize something in a way you hadn't before and you're back to ground one. You go in circles, writhe around for a days or weeks or months, and years down the line there's still a hole where the person was, even if you've mostly recovered by then. How on earth is that straightforward?

So, here's something I've been struggling with. I'm sure some of you remember the debacle with my cousin's wedding and Mum insisting I wear a dress. Nothing's changed in that regard -- the plan is still to find a fancy skirt/shirt combo that'll satisfy us both -- but it's taken me this long to be able to get passed being angry and upset in order to think about some of her ideas.

My mom (who, as I've mentioned before, is great about LGBs but not so much with Ts) is of the opinion that a person crossdressing (let's skip over the fact that a transperson who is "crossdressing" is actually wearing the correct clothing, for the sake of simplicity) has to understand that their choice of dress makes other people uncomfortable. People are uncomfortable with the idea of a man in a dress, and though this is news to me apparently a lot of people are still wigged out by the idea of a woman in a tux. Since a wedding is about showering attention on the bridge (and the groom, but really, it's about the bride, or some I'm told) choosing to do something that draws attention to yourself (by making people uncomfortable) is selfish because it draws attention away from the bridge (and groom, him too), and that therefore even if a person is trans someone who is biologically male should be in a tux and someone who is biologically female should be in a dress (or, grudgingly, a fancy skirt).

I can...sort of understand that perspective, with the idea that you're supposed to be all about the couple who's getting married. I do not understand why someone's choice of clothing makes people uncomfortable, because that seems silly to me, but that's a conversation for a different day. I do not understand the idea that I (or anyone) should do something that makes me Extremely Uncomfortable just to make other people happy. I do not like this idea. It rubs my proverbial fur the wrong way, makes me feel all gross and icky, and I do not understand it.

So I do not know what to think, and was hoping other people would have an opinion.

unosarta

2011-02-12, 11:47 PM

A marriage is about the bride and groom being happy and nothing more. I heard a very interesting quote a while ago about marriages

"Honestly, I have never understood why people place so much emphasis on the wedding day being the 'happiest day of the groom and bride's life.' If the marriage is the happiest moment, then their marriage will be entirely down hill from their, which is a terrible way to think about a marriage, and about life in general. You may have fond memories of your marriage, but if it is the best thing in your life, then it is likely you will spend all of your time thinking about it and not dealing with the problems you have in your marriage."

It was in an advice column, and it seems to hold water.

Marriage shouldn't be about "showing anyone off." It should be about everyone being happy. I think you should try to find a way to contact the bride/groom, and ask them what they think of it. If they do not know you are T, then things could get awkward, but only as awkward as you simply going to them in the formalwear or whatevs. But honestly, explain to them what you feel like doing, and then have them contact your mother. If she continues to complain, then she isn't doing it because of the wedding, but because she is transphobic/intolerant, let's be honest.

Mystic Muse

2011-02-12, 11:48 PM

I do not understand the idea that I (or anyone) should do something that makes me Extremely Uncomfortable just to make other people happy. I do not like this idea. It rubs my proverbial fur the wrong way, makes me feel all gross and icky, and I do not understand it. Neither do I.

As for the thing about not drawing attention, people will really care about a girl being in a Tux? If that happened I'd think it was odd for a moment and then move on. Even then, I'd only think it was odd because all the girls in the family wear dresses.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-13, 12:06 AM

*snip*

Usually, I'm against people having to do something they are uncomfortable with, but weddings, oddly, are one of those occasions where doing something that makes you "Extremely Uncomfortable" might be considerate/required. Bridesmaids often have to dress in the most hideous, appallingly-coloured dresses for the sake of the bride. Personally, in your situation, I'd ask the bride if she'd mind if I wore a nice tux and abide by her decision.

I don't know if it'd help, but maybe you could find a way to wear pants underneath if that would help make things more comfortable. Or maybe pass a kilt off as a skirt? :smalltongue:

In other situations where the focus isn't on someone else (ie: outside of weddings, funerals, work, and the like) what you wear is your business and people who make it their business are being jerks.

Also, since we're on the topic of weddings, I would not constrain people to wear conventional wedding attire. I even had an idea for my bridesmaids to wear halloween costumes type attire. There was even a friend of mine that I wanted to dress up in armour if she were to be my bridesmaid. :smallbiggrin: I kinda want to invite you to my wedding, should I ever have one, now, just so you can go to one wearing whatever you please.

Coidzor

2011-02-13, 12:07 AM

On an unrelated note: Why do most of my straiht friends not want a baby but I want to be a daddy ssoooo bad? :smallfurious:

Their age. You're still young. Why do you want to have a child so badly at your age?

Um... What? It's not straightforward, it's a maelstrom. You take one step forward, a dozen back. You're perfectly fine one moment and the next you're in tears. You go a few weeks thinking the pain is gone and then you suddenly realize something in a way you hadn't before and you're back to ground one. You go in circles, writhe around for a days or weeks or months, and years down the line there's still a hole where the person was, even if you've mostly recovered by then. How on earth is that straightforward?

Hopefully this clears things up a bit.

:smallconfused:
How is the reaction to death not an intrinsic part of death? That is like saying, "relationships are not complicated, it is how people react to them that is."

By the same token that the reactions of conservatives to gays having sex is not intrinsic to gays having sex.

It's secondhand. Unless you're the one dying, you're not actually dealing with death itself. I hope this clarifies my meaning a bit more.

Really? :smallconfused:

Yeah. When we truly deal with death personally, we are the dead. Grief, mourning, the after effects of someone dying... Side effects, ripples, secondhand, indirect.

We are mortal. We die. Quite simple.

Mecharious

2011-02-13, 12:17 AM

So, after a long break from dating, I'm in a relationship with a bisexual guy. For some reason, this is making me a bit uncomfortable; I don't think I'm biphobic, but I'm a bit worried about awkward situations coming up. I guess it doesn't help that he's been around the block a lot... or is into some freaky things.

I don't know, maybe I'm just overly nervous. Has anyone here who's straight or gay dated a bisexual before? It's not really any different, is it?

unosarta

2011-02-13, 12:53 AM

By the same token that the reactions of conservatives to gays having sex is not intrinsic to gays having sex.

It's secondhand. Unless you're the one dying, you're not actually dealing with death itself. I hope this clarifies my meaning a bit more.

I would say that the way that someone reacts to death is still a part of death itself. People live their lives leading up to death in fear of death, because it is a natural human reaction to do so. This also affects how, exactly, they die.

Yeah. When we truly deal with death personally, we are the dead. Grief, mourning, the after effects of someone dying... Side effects, ripples, secondhand, indirect.

We are mortal. We die. Quite simple.
Newton's Third Law of Forces, and the Force Laws in general seem to apply strangely well here.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Forces come in pairs, are equal, and in an opposite direction.

Basically, the first Force Law is what I am getting at here. The reaction is as important as the action itself. When you research an event in history, you do look at the event, but at the same time, you also look at how the event affects people. When you talk about the topic of Gay Rights, you don't just talk about what gay people want for their rights, you talk about how the movement itself affects others. Whenever there is a social issue (which death inevitably becomes), one cannot truly look at the action by itself, but also the reaction.

Danne

2011-02-13, 12:58 AM

Hopefully this clears things up a bit. ... It's secondhand. Unless you're the one dying, you're not actually dealing with death itself. I hope this clarifies my meaning a bit more.

Yes, that clears it up nicely. I see what you mean now. :smallsmile:

@unsorta and raynedragon: I'm not particularly close to my cousin, is the thing. We never see each other outside of family events, and even that is growing less frequent because she moved to Florida and has a full time job that won't grant her much vacation time (seriously, they wouldn't let her come up for our grandfather's funeral :smallfurious:). I have no idea what her fiancé even looks like. Asking would require a phonecall, and I'm a terrified of telephones, and I'm not out to her (or anyone IRL) making it even more awkward. I don't think I could handle it. :smallfrown:

And I think there's a difference between "wear this ugly dress to make the bridge look pretty" and "wear this thing that makes you feel like a total freak who is oppressed by society and rubs in your face that fact that your body is completely wrong, on top of being physically uncomfortable"? Or maybe not? I hate people, they're too complicated. :smallsigh:

golentan

2011-02-13, 01:09 AM

Mecharious: I have some experience from the other side. In general, worrying about things before they have come up is bad juju. For example, I've noticed people tend to start questioning my fidelity when they find out I'm bi. To the point that commenting someone's attractive starts inspiring weird looks, when a similar comment to a gender they had previously known I was attracted to had not. So, on behalf of bi folks everywhere please don't be "that guy."

Exes are just exes, also, and can be dealt with appropriately for exes regardless of gender. Whether that means friends or snide comments or a restraining order and body armor. I hope that last one isn't relevant.

Apart from that, kink... umm... I have no good advice for how to deal with "freaky things" as I assume you mean them. If it makes you uncomfortable, that's probably a good conversation to have sooner than later with him?

unosarta

2011-02-13, 01:21 AM

@unsorta and raynedragon: I'm not particularly close to my cousin, is the thing. We never see each other outside of family events, and even that is growing less frequent because she moved to Florida and has a full time job that won't grant her much vacation time (seriously, they wouldn't let her come up for our grandfather's funeral :smallfurious:). I have no idea what her fiancé even looks like. Asking would require a phonecall, and I'm a terrified of telephones, and I'm not out to her (or anyone IRL) making it even more awkward. I don't think I could handle it. :smallfrown:

You could email her? Or just mail her, if need be. Just find some way to communicate her your position, and why you are making your arguments. If she still wants you to wear a dress, there isn't much you can do. If she is fine with you wearing whatever the heck you want, then your mother can't really tell her otherwise, unless she is paying for it.

Do you both have a facebook account? That could help.

Mecharious

2011-02-13, 01:22 AM

Well, I don't want to be "that guy," but it's a bit hard to control the stray thoughts that go through my mind. I'm not saying I don't trust him... he's really given me absolutely every reason to trust him (known him for over a year before going out). He's just got a lot more experience than me from both genders, and I guess it makes me a little intimidated, to be honest.

golentan

2011-02-13, 03:52 AM

Eh, people can't help what they think, but they can help what they do. It would hardly be fair to hold concerns against you. Just as long as (if they are unfounded) you keep them in perspective?

Other than that... Sounds like standard new relationship jitters? A partner's experience can be intimidating, but it can also be an excellent and fun resource to take advantage of?

Twelve winds I am so not helping right now. I can feel it in my bones. Apologies.

Vaynor

2011-02-13, 04:36 AM

edit @ ^: Sure, but was it so obsenely a cynical money-making scene back then, or was it more of a saint's holiday?

Like I said, the holiday had been around for a long time before greeting cards began being mass-produced. The only way the holiday would have been related to making money would be the people buying supplies to make valentines, or perhaps purchasing them from your local handmade card shop. Some printers were making cards fairly early on, but it was still only to satisfy a demand. I'm not trying to deny that the holiday as it is today is more of a money-maker than anything, but the holiday has honest roots regardless.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 06:25 AM

In regard to the gender/sex debate: Is it accpetable that I use biological genderand mental/physiological psychological gender to differentinate? Seems a good wya to avoid confusion :smallsmile:

Possibly because the word sex is confusing enough when your native language lacks any meaning of it that is forum appropriate. :smallredface:

So, here's something I've been struggling with. I'm sure some of you remember the debacle with my cousin's wedding and Mum insisting I wear a dress. Nothing's changed in that regard -- the plan is still to find a fancy skirt/shirt combo that'll satisfy us both -- but it's taken me this long to be able to get passed being angry and upset in order to think about some of her ideas.

My mom (who, as I've mentioned before, is great about LGBs but not so much with Ts) is of the opinion that a person crossdressing (let's skip over the fact that a transperson who is "crossdressing" is actually wearing the correct clothing, for the sake of simplicity) has to understand that their choice of dress makes other people uncomfortable. People are uncomfortable with the idea of a man in a dress, and though this is news to me apparently a lot of people are still wigged out by the idea of a woman in a tux. Since a wedding is about showering attention on the bridge (and the groom, but really, it's about the bride, or some I'm told) choosing to do something that draws attention to yourself (by making people uncomfortable) is selfish because it draws attention away from the bridge (and groom, him too), and that therefore even if a person is trans someone who is biologically male should be in a tux and someone who is biologically female should be in a dress (or, grudgingly, a fancy skirt).

I can...sort of understand that perspective, with the idea that you're supposed to be all about the couple who's getting married. I do not understand why someone's choice of clothing makes people uncomfortable, because that seems silly to me, but that's a conversation for a different day. I do not understand the idea that I (or anyone) should do something that makes me Extremely Uncomfortable just to make other people happy. I do not like this idea. It rubs my proverbial fur the wrong way, makes me feel all gross and icky, and I do not understand it.

So I do not know what to think, and was hoping other people would have an opinion.

News to me as well, tuxedos and business suits were the most trendy outifts for a woman to wear over here a few years back. As proven by the fact that I know that. :smalltongue:

Sending an E-mail is probably the right thing to do but if you ask me then they're the ones being unreasonable. The idea's been here since 1966 after all, was controversial for less than five years too. :smallsmile:

Serpentine

2011-02-13, 06:45 AM

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 07:08 AM

Ah... Isn't physiology a subset of biology? :smallconfused: Do you mean psychological?

Anyway, you can - although I'm not sure what you mean by "biological gender" unless you're just using it instead of sex - but I'm still gonna stick with my definition *shrug*

Oh yeah, oops. :smallredface:

That I am, and that's what I would expect you to do. ^.^

Now that everybody's got their definitions in order, let's get back to discussing the important stuff! Like Valentine's Day cards. :smalltongue:

Rawhide

2011-02-13, 07:17 AM

In regard to the gender/sex debate: Is it accpetable that I use biological genderand mental/physiological psychological gender to differentinate? Seems a good wya to avoid confusion :smallsmile:
Biological or physical gender would be appropriate to identify when you're using gender to mean the same as the biological/physical sex of a person.

Rather than mental or psychological gender though, you might just want to say 'gender identity' or 'which gender they identify as' (though the first two would be correct).

Remember though, that an unqualified gender could mean physical/biological sex, gender identity or grammatical gender, depending on who is saying it in what context.

KenderWizard

2011-02-13, 07:19 AM

@Danne: I think there's definitely a way for everyone to be happy here. The choice for wedding wear isn't tux or fancy gown anymore, there are plenty of formal-wear options these days. I think you should look for a formal trouser-suit, maybe in a gender-neutral (as society sees it) colour that makes it look "prettier" (women usually wear colours to a wedding) but isn't, like, frilly pink or something that's very girly to you. So maybe a nice understated blue trouser suit with a nice white shirt and no tie. If your mother still isn't happy, I say just go ahead and get in touch with the bride. Is your dislike of telephones greater than your dislike of wearing a dress/skirt for a whole day? If not, just go for it. Write down what you're going to say, and the number, on a sheet of paper. That way, you won't forget anything, especially if you have to leave a message. Tell the bride you don't like dresses, but you want to look nice for the wedding, and describe what trouser-based option you're thinking of wearing instead. Say you hope she doesn't mind you wearing that instead of a dress, and that you're looking forward to seeing her, or something else friendly.

It's not such a weird thing to dislike dresses these days. I have a cisfemale friend, who is straight, and pretty, wears her hair long, and just really doesn't like dresses. I've seen her in a dress once. It was for Hallowe'en, and she was wearing her jeans underneath it. She wears neat black trousers and nice shirts to formal occasions (there's another option for you!).