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View Full Version : VoP Monk is just plain dirty (3.5)



Noedig
2011-02-08, 11:48 PM
Im building a VoP Monk/Rogue for a campaign. Right now I've got it planned out to 10th level equally split between monk and rogue, and sweet jebus is this thing cool. Short version is my AC is 28 (naked), my saves are through the roof, I can punch through my targets, my SAs are d8s, and I've got more Exalted feats than I can shake a stick at.

I can see why people do not allow this feat in their games. I'm pretty lenient and even I'd probably say no.

ericgrau
2011-02-08, 11:53 PM
Standard core fighter of your level:
{table]Level| AB| AC| damage| HP| fort| ref| will
10| 17,12| 26| 21.4| 95.5| 11| 5| 6[/table]
Average CR 8ish monster AC is around 20 so the above gets 1.55 hits per full attack for about 33.2 damage. Though that's without special abilities. I forget how crazy exalted feats can get. Your AC is high, but what do you have for the rest?

Tyger
2011-02-08, 11:56 PM
{Scrubbed}

Tengu_temp
2011-02-08, 11:56 PM
VoP gives you worse benefits than appropriate WBL. It's overpowered only if your DM is stingy with magic items and treasure.

Keld Denar
2011-02-08, 11:59 PM
What does VoP give you? Its something like 70% of what WBL would give you...and you can't customize it. Also, it has no customization, so you HAVE to get what the feat gives you.

Not to mention that you run out of moderately useful [Exalted] feats after about level 6 from your bonus feats, which forces you to take a bunch of crap from that point on.

ericgrau
2011-02-09, 12:02 AM
Cut him some slack VoP was considered OP for a while by many, not everyone knows. EDIT: but unless he's spent his time in the playground only in the comic section I'm surprised if he hasn't seen anything yet. It was especially hated on monks and druids who have less use for gear otherwise. It might be a lousy idea on other classes but I'd like to at least hear about someone who ran the numbers for monks/druids before dismissing it entirely. Or, heck, I'd like to hear what his stats and special abilities are for comparison. Exalted feats might make a difference. That's why I posted a baseline. It's only core so it should be beatable, but I wanna see if he beats it by a little, goes way over the top or falls into a trap and does much worse.

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 12:03 AM
Tyger is right. Monk has decent defence for free, but he is completely offenseless with abilities that don't compare to some races. VOP swordsage would be even crazier! And by crazier I mean tier 3 tops.

Also exalted feats have alot of role playing requirements with can be troublesome. I still have a soft spot for Apostle of Peace, it's such a fun class. Also it allows you to use magic items.

Draculmaulkee
2011-02-09, 12:04 AM
{Scrubbed}

On the off chance that you're not, compare the bonuses magic items give you and the bonuses VoP gives you. Then erase VoP from your character sheet and get something more useful.

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 12:06 AM
I don't agree with the don't play VOP thing. That is to mechanics minded, VoP creates an interesting dynamic for your character if you can manage to play the ultimate good guy. I recommend it for anyone up for a challenge.

But no it is not as powerful as magic items.

Coidzor
2011-02-09, 12:08 AM
{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

Well, it's not a given, there's always people learning new things about the game, it's just slower now that it's no longer being actively marketed or widely available in stores.


Not to mention that you run out of moderately useful [Exalted] feats after about level 6 from your bonus feats, which forces you to take a bunch of crap from that point on.

This is the crucial thing. And the bit about being more vulnerable than a Paladin to the whims of the DM in terms of losing everything by falling.

JaronK
2011-02-09, 12:09 AM
Im building a VoP Monk/Rogue for a campaign. Right now I've got it planned out to 10th level equally split between monk and rogue, and sweet jebus is this thing cool. Short version is my AC is 28 (naked), my saves are through the roof, I can punch through my targets, my SAs are d8s, and I've got more Exalted feats than I can shake a stick at.

I can see why people do not allow this feat in their games. I'm pretty lenient and even I'd probably say no.

Cool. Now what happens when you fight any undead, construct, plant, ooze, elemental, etc? Too bad you can't sneak attack them and have no hope of fixing that. Hey, what about flying things? Yeah, you can't touch them either. What about stuff with DR... most of it you'll have trouble penetrating. Go look at CR 10-14 stuff (what you'll be fighting at level 10) and consider what you can actually do to them. You may have nice numbers, but at the end of the day there's really not much you can actually do. And look at those Exalted feats... Nymph's Kiss is great. Touch of Golden Ice is nice. It starts going downhill fast from there, until you start taking stuff like "I have a shiny halo" simply because that's all you're even able to take. And don't forget you have to be the ultimate paragon of virtue all the time. Screw up once and you lose everything.

VoP is EXTREMELY weak except in very specific builds (Monk 1/Druid X, for example, or maybe Dragonborn Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9). Monk/Rogue is not an example of such a thing. Try it in actual play and you'll understand.

JaronK

Douglas
2011-02-09, 12:15 AM
Right, now try building exactly the same thing with 49,000 gp worth of well chosen gear. You'll get about the same.

Let's see...
Pearl of Power (level 3) to pay for your party wizard casting Greater Mage Armor on you every day: 9000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +1: 2000 gp
Ring of Mind Shielding: 8000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +1: 1000 gp
Your choice of +2 ability score item (added to another item if necessary, using MIC pricing): 4000 gp
Ring of Protection +1: 2000 gp
Ring of Sustenance: 2500 gp
Magic Bedroll (for Endure Elements): 500 gp
Necklace of Natural Weapons +2: 8600 gp
Shroud of Scales: 24000 gp
Total: 61600 gp

Ok, so I went over budget by about 12k gp and I'm missing 1 point of AC bonus and the exalted feats. However, this has a few extras that VoP doesn't give you (reduced sleep requirements and immunity to dragons' Frightful Presence) and no less than 32000 of it is tied up in effects of rather dubious value - how often are you really going to care about Mind Shielding, and how many actually significant enemies at level 10 are not going to ignore DR/magic? Take out those two items, and all of a sudden I have 21400 gp to spare. Put that into upgrading the Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection, and getting another two +2 ability score items, and I have now beaten VoP's AC and also boosted more of my stats.

Vow of Poverty is overpowered only in games that are far below recommended Wealth By Level. If it seems overpowered to you, that just tells me that you're not really familiar with just how much a standard load of magic items really gives you.

Noedig
2011-02-09, 12:30 AM
I suppose I underestimated the vigor at which people would respond to this post. That and the fact I included VoP and Monk in the same sentence. What was I thinking? :smallredface:

Perhaps over powered is not a correct term. A better one may have been "Lots better than I expected." The class fits wonderfully for what I'm going for and with the added possibility of Sainthood I may have gotten excited. I also succeeded a bit in eliminating MADness for the monk by making his attacks go off of Wis rather than Dex/Str.

I'll admit that upon first glance the free attribute enhancements look a tad powerful, but hell, by level 7 other characters should at least have the most basic gear in terms of attribute enhancement so theres a balance there. The AC is awesome, but again I'm able to see balances of the crazy **** that attacks you at level 10.
Numbers and stuff:

My saves are high, but perhaps artificially so. I may have miss added.
Fort 10 (+14 against poisons/drugs)
Ref 12
Will 12
And that is Monk +4 +4 +4, Rogue +1 +4 +1.
Add in a +6 for will, a +3 for ref, and +4 for fort. Then an additional +1 all for a VoP special ability.

AB is low for level 10 at +13 using Wis instead of Str/Dex.

Base Damage unarmed is 2d8 with Imp Nat Attack, and +3d8 SA with Sacred Strikes. Still appears to be under average Dam for 10th level melee, but oh well.

The only stats that bare mention are Wis Con and maybe Dex, as those are the ones that Im increasing with the Attribute enhancements. Given 18 Wis at level 1, 22 at level 7, 24 at 11. Given 18 Con at level 1, 20 at level 11.

Feats for the Human VoP monk/rogue. Probably going Slayer of Domiel for fun:
@ Level 1: Sacred Vow, VoP, Touch of Golden Ice, Stunning Fist
@ Level 2: Combat Ref, Intuitive Attack
@ 3: Ascetic Thief
@ 4: Sacred Strike
@ 6: Weap Focus Unarmed Strike, Servant of the Heavens
@ 8: Vow of Abstinence
@ 10: Sanctify Martial Strike

Special Abilities: Lots and its late, so I'll do it later.


Edit: Also this is probably the last time Im including the word "monk" in a post or even viewing a thread that has the word "monk" in it, considering the ****-storm I nearly generated, unintentionally mind you. Didn't think people would be so up in arms about it. Still with trolling the potential problem that it is, I suppose I understand. Still, :smallannoyed:

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 12:35 AM
With your last statement I have one thing left to say...

I have never faced an enemy at my appropriate CR that has ever challenged me as a player, even when the situation was stacked against me. Combat is not very hard, which leads me to believe it's not supposed to be.

holywhippet
2011-02-09, 12:42 AM
Tyger is right. Monk has decent defence for free


You think so? Honestly, I've always felt defence to be a weakness of the monk class. Their saves are good, and their AC vs touch attacks is generally better than other PCs, but their regular AC is generally pretty craptacular. Even between their DEX bonus, WIS bonus and class bonuses they aren't even close to being as good as someone in heavy armour.

stainboy
2011-02-09, 12:43 AM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Can we still ban it for fluff reasons? I just don't want another Paladin's Code to argue about.

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 12:44 AM
Yeah I love it when players roll up a character who is always looking for a reason to kill... because that's what paladins are right? A mass murder with a code of ethics that is only a slight deterrent but mostly an enabler.

Kuma Kode
2011-02-09, 12:45 AM
Did you actually have 18 Wisdom and Constitution at first level? If so, it seems that those two stats are what's actually doing the heavy lifting, not Vow of Poverty.

ericgrau
2011-02-09, 12:46 AM
I suppose I underestimated the vigor at which people would respond to this post. That and the fact I included VoP and Monk in the same sentence. What was I thinking? :smallredface:

Perhaps over powered is not a correct term. A better one may have been "Lots better than I expected." The class fits wonderfully for what I'm going for and with the added possibility of Sainthood I may have gotten excited. I also succeeded a bit in eliminating MADness for the monk by making his attacks go off of Wis rather than Dex/Str.

I'll admit that upon first glance the free attribute enhancements look a tad powerful, but hell, by level 7 other characters should at least have the most basic gear in terms of attribute enhancement so theres a balance there. The AC is awesome, but again I'm able to see balances of the crazy **** that attacks you at level 10.
Numbers and stuff:

My saves are high, but perhaps artificially so. I may have miss added.
Fort 10 (+14 against poisons/drugs)
Ref 12
Will 12
And that is Monk +4 +4 +4, Rogue +1 +4 +1.
Add in a +6 for will, a +3 for ref, and +4 for fort. Then an additional +1 all for a VoP special ability.

AB is low for level 10 at +13 using Wis instead of Str/Dex.

Base Damage unarmed is 2d8 with Imp Nat Attack, and +3d8 SA with Sacred Strikes. Still appears to be under average Dam for 10th level melee, but oh well.

The only stats that bare mention are Wis Con and maybe Dex, as those are the ones that Im increasing with the Attribute enhancements. Given 18 Wis at level 1, 22 at level 7, 24 at 11. Given 18 Con at level 1, 20 at level 11.

Feats for the Human VoP monk/rogue. Probably going Slayer of Domiel for fun:
@ Level 1: Sacred Vow, VoP, Touch of Golden Ice, Stunning Fist
@ Level 2: Combat Ref, Intuitive Attack
@ 3: Ascetic Thief
@ 4: Sacred Strike
@ 6: Weap Focus Unarmed Strike, Servant of the Heavens
@ 8: Vow of Abstinence
@ 10: Sanctify Martial Strike

Special Abilities: Lots and its late, so I'll do it later.


Edit: Also this is probably the last time Im including the word "monk" in a post or even viewing a thread that has the word "monk" in it, considering the ****-storm I nearly generated, unintentionally mind you. Didn't think people would be so up in arms about it. Still with trolling the potential problem that it is, I suppose I understand. Still, :smallannoyed:

65%+65%+40%=1.7 hits per round x 22.5=38.25 damage. A little above par but only when you manage to get sneak attacks. Otherwise a measly 15.3. Do you have any strength damage besides the 5d8 dice? Defenses are quite high across the board but not obscene. Plus you can grapple or stunning fist or whatever, which is all gravy on top of that however often it may succeed because you still get your damage. OTOH failure to sneak attack could bring it to a little below par, and if something is stun/grapple immune too you'll be waiting for better fights. 84 avg. HP which is only a little under par, but eh u got great AC and saves and your con goes up next level. So overall it's maybe a little better than an optimized core build. Still something, depending on what kind of group you're in. Which is a good thing IMO. It means it's playable as long as your group is also slightly above reasonably optimized core in power. If they're only so-so, even non-core with mediocre optimization, you may outshine them a bit.

Ya monks do unfortunately cause a storm here.

JaronK
2011-02-09, 12:47 AM
Indeed, it's wise to ban VoP from any game unless all the players want to deal with such shinanigans. Most parties don't want to have to be THAT good.

Though something that is broken with VoP is Vow of Peace if optimized a bit. A Vow of Poverty/Vow of Peace diplomancer is completely unstoppable. Consider a Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X with Vow of Peace, using Requiem. Everything that comes close to him (even undead) has to stop to listen (Fascinate + Vow of Peace ensures this) and then he chats with you for a standard action and now you're his best friend and fanatical follower. Since he doesn't need loot or wealth, he doesn't need to kill anything, he just walks up to the BBEG (with all of said BBEGs minions in tow) and says "Hey, about this world destroying plan, it would be great if you didn't do that. Have you considered talking to someone about your anger issues? I'd be happy to listen" and the campaign is now over. Plus, the BBEG is now your player's best friend and is using his powers to cultivate a new utopia for all the now peaceful nations of the world.

Now THAT is a campaign breaker.

JaronK

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 12:52 AM
I have played with the rule that hostile enemies can't be diplomed. It solves the problem and makes a lot of sense.

holywhippet
2011-02-09, 12:59 AM
Any DM could easily work around a high diplomacy character - send the party up against enemies they simply can't talk to - eg. undead, abberations, humanoids that don't speak common etc.

faceroll
2011-02-09, 01:10 AM
VoP gives you worse benefits than appropriate WBL. It's overpowered only if your DM is stingy with magic items and treasure.

Or random and you don't get to gear optimize.

Optimator
2011-02-09, 01:46 AM
VoP isn't a feat you take for power, you take it to make the concept of an ascetic playable at all.

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 02:51 AM
You think so? Honestly, I've always felt defence to be a weakness of the monk class. Their saves are good, and their AC vs touch attacks is generally better than other PCs, but their regular AC is generally pretty craptacular. Even between their DEX bonus, WIS bonus and class bonuses they aren't even close to being as good as someone in heavy armour.

AC is not really one of their problems. Let us compare a class nobody has a problem with in terms of AC the fighter/paladin/crusader, etc. We will go two handed since that is most common at high levels.

A typical heavy armor guy has a +8 armor and a +5 enhancement bonus for a total of +13

A monk will have +4 from levels+4 or better from wisdom (I figure a start around 14 to be common and I figure at least a +4 enhancement bonus from items or begging a small level 2 spell your choice) and one item that gives an armor bonus (either bracers or a robe. robe is better for the AC) figure at least a +4. That is +12 and that was with moderate stats and not counting that if the monk gets a decent dex score he can actually make use of all of it. Further if I use the bracers it can up to +8 or that my clothes can be enchanted by the magic vestment (+5 to AC).

As you can see in terms of AC the monk can be better than the standard heavy armor character.

Leon
2011-02-09, 02:58 AM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I don't see why these come up every time for a Character idea - They are not always a needed option even if you are in a solo game.

If you are in a group then there is a very good chance that one of the other players will be able to offer some buffing/healing/Ranged Attack capability to the rest of the group.

Zaydos
2011-02-09, 03:04 AM
AC is not really one of their problems. Let us compare a class nobody has a problem with in terms of AC the fighter/paladin/crusader, etc. We will go two handed since that is most common at high levels.

A typical heavy armor guy has a +8 armor and a +5 enhancement bonus for a total of +13

A monk will have +4 from levels+4 or better from wisdom (I figure a start around 14 to be common and I figure at least a +4 enhancement bonus from items or begging a small level 2 spell your choice) and one item that gives an armor bonus (either bracers or a robe. robe is better for the AC) figure at least a +4. That is +12 and that was with moderate stats and not counting that if the monk gets a decent dex score he can actually make use of all of it. Further if I use the bracers it can up to +8 or that my clothes can be enchanted by the magic vestment (+5 to AC).

As you can see in terms of AC the monk can be better than the standard heavy armor character.

Unless the fighter actually uses a shield (+7 more AC), and people do have problems with fighters' AC specifically it's far too low to be useful (23 is hit on a -13 by some CR 18 creatures I know of without looking; even with Amulet of Nat Armor +5 and Ring of Protection +5 and Dusty Rose Ioun Stone and max Dex for Mithril armor it's still a 0 to hit them). Also +8 Bracers of Armor are fairly expensive (although completely affordable by 20th they are still a decent chunk). But yes a Lv 20 monk will have better AC than a Lv 20 fighter (although as I pointed out being his on a 0 is really rather bad AC) maybe even enough if they pour half their WBL into it that they can dodge 50% of level appropriate attacks.

Then you have monks at less than 20th level. At 2nd level a fighter has 19 AC + shield if he chooses to use one (which is still worth the damage hit at this level) and a monk has 10 + two stats. Assuming double 18s the monk is still worse off by 1 than a fighter without a shield. If he can beg a spell off the wizard he has 22 assuming double 18s. The fighter has 21 assuming a shield and a single 12.

At level 5 a fighter will have +1 or +2 armor/shield and a monk will have +1 to AC (maybe +2 with a +2 to stat item, +3 if they put all their WBL into it). So while there are points where monks come out on top there are also several where they do not. This is largely because fighter AC plateaus somewhat because Full-Plate doesn't get better much better.

tl;dr: Fighters have as good if not better AC by using shields for much of the game and their AC at lv 20 is considered a lost battle so they are not an example of good enough AC.

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 03:05 AM
I don't see why these come up every time for a Character idea - They are not always a needed option even if you are in a solo game.

If you are in a group then there is a very good chance that one of the other players will be able to offer some buffing/healing/Ranged Attack capability to the rest of the group.

because the thread is making a reference to how a VoP monk could be powerful. Those are reasons why it is not too powerful and in fact is more limiting than the standard loot you could buy/find.

If this was a "should I play a VoP monk just for fun and I do not care about my power" then you would have a point and should rightly point out that it is fine to be limited in a party situation as long as it is fun (and VoP monks can be).

Gnaeus
2011-02-09, 08:44 AM
tl;dr: Fighters have as good if not better AC by using shields for much of the game and their AC at lv 20 is considered a lost battle so they are not an example of good enough AC.

Lets not forget in this equation that the fighter starts with 1+Level hit points more than the monk, and is usually going to be able to pump con higher than the monk, and he can spend a fighter bonus feat on improved toughness, so if they have the same AC the fighter can stand up to more enemy attacks.

Also, @ douglas.
You are right of course. But if you really want to blow VoP out of the water, the fighter 10 spends 16 or 32k on pearls of power for Polymorph spells. A good polymorph throws his Str and AC way beyond VoP levels, while simultaneously giving advantages that VoP can never emulate, like flight and reach.

Greenish
2011-02-09, 09:00 AM
Cut him some slack VoP was considered OP for a while by many, not everyone knows.You know what cutting the slack leads to, do you?! It leads to some people still thinking bards are weak! :smallwink:

It was especially hated on monks and druids who have less use for gear otherwise.Monks need the gear just as much as fighters. Not the exactly same gear, but still.

Druids are good to go, they actually have a large degree of gear independence, and most stuff would need shenanigans to use in wild shape, unlike VoP.

Ducklord
2011-02-09, 09:58 AM
But if you really want to blow VoP out of the water, the fighter 10 spends 16 or 32k on pearls of power for Polymorph spells. A good polymorph throws his Str and AC way beyond VoP levels, while simultaneously giving advantages that VoP can never emulate, like flight and reach.

Wait, what? Pearls of power don't let you cast spells. It would be awsome if they did though.

senrath
2011-02-09, 10:05 AM
The idea is that you buy them for the Wizard/Whatever so they'll have an additional slot to prepare a Polymorph spell or whatnot specifically for you.

Drascin
2011-02-09, 10:08 AM
I don't see why these come up every time for a Character idea - They are not always a needed option even if you are in a solo game.

If you are in a group then there is a very good chance that one of the other players will be able to offer some buffing/healing/Ranged Attack capability to the rest of the group.

The thing is, about half the monster manual above a certain level can fly. Having to stand around twiddling your thumbs in half the fights (or forcing the wizard to spend the ever-so-mportant first turn and a spell slot just enabling you to do anything) gets a bit bothersome after a while.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-09, 10:08 AM
Wait, what? Pearls of power don't let you cast spells. It would be awsome if they did though.

We are assuming at least 1 prepared caster in the party. That person has no reason not to cast the spell since they now have another spell slot useage. You keep the orb but give it (briely) to them in exchange for them casting on you.

It is win-win.

Ducklord
2011-02-09, 10:09 AM
Oh, I see. Well, that doesn't really require a pearl of power, but just a cooperative wizard. And a DM that allows Polymorph to be used in his games. It is kinda cheesy..

LordBlades
2011-02-09, 10:12 AM
We are assuming at least 1 prepared caster in the party. That person has no reason not to cast the spell since they now have another spell slot useage. You keep the orb but give it (briely) to them in exchange for them casting on you.

It is win-win.

This is true for pre-combat buffing. In combat, you'd force the wizard to waste 1 turn casting a spell to get your fighter out of the suck zone instead of using that turn to lay out some battlefield control.

@Ducklord: the cheesiness of Polymorph is relative to the power level of the campaign. If your other frontliners are playing at sword&board fighter level, then yeah, it's cheesy, but if they're playing at CoDzilla power level, it's a pretty ok spell to use on a melee character. It's pretty hard to actually break the game with polymorph (not unless Assume Supernatural Ability anyway); It's the bigger brothers (PAO and shapechange) that are more torublesome

Telonius
2011-02-09, 10:13 AM
VoP Monk is just plain dirty

Well, yes. He's not allowed to own soap. :smallbiggrin:

I really think I ought to put this in my signature: Vow of Poverty is not about making an ultra-powerful character. It's about making an otherwise-unusable concept (person who has sworn off all material wealth) into something approaching playable.

Callista
2011-02-09, 10:13 AM
The bigger question for me with Vow of Poverty isn't the mechanics or the "overpowered" nature of it (it's not overpowered, but lots of people have said that already).

It's that you're playing an Exalted Good character who donates all his property to people who need it.

Is that going to fit into your party? Have you talked to the rest of the people you're playing with to make sure that your character will actually be adventuring with people he'd logically team up with? If not, you're going to have to suspend your disbelief by some seriously strong cables.

Gnaeus
2011-02-09, 10:15 AM
This is true for pre-combat buffing. In combat, you'd force the wizard to waste 1 turn casting a spell to get your fighter out of the suck zone instead of using that turn to lay out some battlefield control.

Turning your fighter into a huge monster with 15-30 foot reach IS battlefield control. Anyway, Polymorph is min/level, so with a 9-10 minute duration there is a good chance it can last from previous combat.

Callista
2011-02-09, 10:15 AM
Question for those of you who have played VoP: Is it kosher for someone with a Vow of Poverty to carry loot from an adventure on the way to donate it to someone, as long as he doesn't actually use it? Or would that be breaking the vow?


Turning your fighter into a huge monster with 15-30 foot reach IS battlefield control. Anyway, Polymorph is min/level, so with a 9-10 minute duration there is a good chance it can last from previous combat.SO true. People who play wizards often forget that casting that cool spell on somebody else (i.e., someone with an actual BAB) is usually more effective than casting it on yourself.

senrath
2011-02-09, 10:18 AM
Well, it simply says that you may not "own or use any material possessions" with a few exceptions. As long as you don't use them, your character doesn't consider the stuff theirs, and you give the stuff away as soon as possible, I don't see the problem.

Talya
2011-02-09, 10:23 AM
I'm playing a VOP Ranger/Barbarian/Fist of the Forest (and eventually Warblade/Forest Reeve and maybe fighter as well.) Normally I hate seeing that many classes on a character's sheet, but in this case I consider my primary class is Fist of the Forest, which only lasts 3 levels, and everything else is filler.

Now, admittedly this is a somewhat lower magic game. Wizards/Druids/Clerics have been banned outright as player characters. Although they exist in the history of the setting, magic is on the decline. With far less access to magic items (although Artificer is available, which could change that if anyone ever rolls one), the vow is stunningly powerful. Still, I'm prepping for the possibility that the DM will start handing out some nice items. Here's a few neat things that can be done with the vow.


Nice Exalted Feats (for my character):
Nymph's Kiss (especially to a skill-based melee fighter like this one)
Touch of Golden Ice (any natural attack or unarmed strike character makes good use of this)
Sanctify Ki Strike (one of FotF's class features actually refers to Ki Strike as it's equivalent, so they qualify for it)
Holy Ki Strike (+2d6 unarmed strike damage? Yes please.)
Righteous Wrath (Yay for rages debuffing a field of enemies)
Animal Friend (that ranger class feature with only 3 ranger levels would barely see use if not for this feat)
Nemesis
Exalted Companion (for my wild cohort!)
Quell the Profane

If I happened to have the stunning fist feat, Fist of the Heavens would be nice, too.

Lastly:
I may be the only person in my party to be able to fly. Even if not, I'll at least keep up. Yay for Wild Cohort - Dire Eagle. :)

None of this is to say VOP is typically a good idea for a monk. (Although, if you're playing a monk, all is pretty much lost to start with, I'm not sure VOP actually makes it worse.) But I think my character would be more than playable even in a standard wealth game. VOP isn't going to gimp her that much, and will provide a lot of utility she'd never get otherwise.

LordBlades
2011-02-09, 10:23 AM
Turning your fighter into a huge monster with 15-30 foot reach IS battlefield control. Anyway, Polymorph is min/level, so with a 9-10 minute duration there is a good chance it can last from previous combat.

You can turn your fighter in a melee monster that could rip the opposing melee to shreds, or you can use your turn to shut down an enemy caster.

I've played wizards quite a bit, and from my experience, as long as there was a credible caster threat on the battlefield, there rarely was a turn I could spare to buff someone with anything.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 10:37 AM
I've always been a big fan of VoP, but that's because in about 75% of the games my group plays WBL usually doesn't even quite hit half of what it should be. Most of the rest of the time we'll get WBL but it's in random drops, and 90% of it sucks. If you do have full access to WBL though.... yeah, that's much more OP than VoP. Truth be told the only time my group has balance issues is when people are allowed to just buy whatever they want with WBL as the guiding rule of thumb.

That being said one of my favorite characters was a Paladin who had VoP. He dual wielded a quarterstaff, and had a cohort that doubled as a flying mount for him to ride around on. Wasn't the most powerful party member by any stretch of the imagination, but it was still fun as hell :P

Psyren
2011-02-09, 10:46 AM
Indeed, it's wise to ban VoP from any game unless all the players want to deal with such shinanigans. Most parties don't want to have to be THAT good.

Though something that is broken with VoP is Vow of Peace if optimized a bit. A Vow of Poverty/Vow of Peace diplomancer is completely unstoppable. Consider a Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X with Vow of Peace, using Requiem. Everything that comes close to him (even undead) has to stop to listen (Fascinate + Vow of Peace ensures this) and then he chats with you for a standard action and now you're his best friend and fanatical follower. Since he doesn't need loot or wealth, he doesn't need to kill anything, he just walks up to the BBEG (with all of said BBEGs minions in tow) and says "Hey, about this world destroying plan, it would be great if you didn't do that. Have you considered talking to someone about your anger issues? I'd be happy to listen" and the campaign is now over. Plus, the BBEG is now your player's best friend and is using his powers to cultivate a new utopia for all the now peaceful nations of the world.

Now THAT is a campaign breaker.

JaronK

I think I missed something - How does VoP enable that strategy in a way that WBL doesn't?

Gnaeus
2011-02-09, 10:48 AM
I've played wizards quite a bit, and from my experience, as long as there was a credible caster threat on the battlefield, there rarely was a turn I could spare to buff someone with anything.

1. Shutting down an enemy caster is NOT battlefield control.
2. Most battlefield control that you could use to shut down an enemy caster (Say, evards tentacles, or a summoned grappler), can be evaded with pretty much exactly the same spells and tactics that the caster would use to get out of the Polymorphed fighters threat radius
3. I've played wizards quite a bit also, and from my experience, Turning my chain tripper into a huge creature with 30 reach and 30 strength is almost always worth my time, unless I can end the battle immediately AND
4. Minimum 7 minute duration means that I can usually toss a polymorph before the fighting starts.

LordBlades
2011-02-09, 10:55 AM
1. Shutting down an enemy caster is NOT battlefield control.
2. Most battlefield control that you could use to shut down an enemy caster (Say, evards tentacles, or a summoned grappler), can be evaded with pretty much exactly the same spells and tactics that the caster would use to get out of the Polymorphed fighters threat radius
3. I've played wizards quite a bit also, and from my experience, Turning my chain tripper into a huge creature with 30 reach and 30 strength is almost always worth my time, unless I can end the battle immediately AND
4. Minimum 7 minute duration means that I can usually toss a polymorph before the fighting starts.

1. Yeah, used the term wrong, but you seem to have got my point.

2. Agreed, except it's much easier to reach a smart wizard with a spell, than it's for the fighter to reach him unless you spend additional rounds to cast mobility spells on him. I'd much rather have a gish/CoDzilla that can do those on his own actions rather than a fighter one needs to babysit.

3. As a wizard you usually can do that. Getting off the right spell will nullify a good chunk of the enemy force.

4. I was only referring to in-combat buffing. pre-combat it's no problem

Leon
2011-02-09, 10:57 AM
because the thread is making a reference to how a VoP monk could be powerful. Those are reasons why it is not too powerful and in fact is more limiting than the standard loot you could buy/find.

If this was a "should I play a VoP monk just for fun and I do not care about my power" then you would have a point and should rightly point out that it is fine to be limited in a party situation as long as it is fun (and VoP monks can be).

It can be powerful - not everyone plays to the oft thought level of squeeze the absolute out of the game.
For his game and ones that he has played it has been / is quite powerful, to you not so much.
The


The thing is, about half the monster manual above a certain level can fly. Having to stand around twiddling your thumbs in half the fights (or forcing the wizard to spend the ever-so-mportant first turn and a spell slot just enabling you to do anything) gets a bit bothersome after a while.

Does not mean that you'll encounter them always airborne or that you'll indeed encounter half that stuff in the MM.

As for party support maybe I'm just spoiled in that Ive always played with groups that have some who does care enough to support the rest of the party with magical might over his own glory.

Talya
2011-02-09, 11:03 AM
Indeed, it's wise to ban VoP from any game unless all the players want to deal with such shinanigans. Most parties don't want to have to be THAT good.

VOP characters don't inconvenience the party at all. Quite the opposite. While everyone else is fighting over that one popular loot item, the VOP character is content to take any items (regardless of how useless they are) that equal their share of the value (to be donated to a charity of their choice).

Now, if they take Vows of Peace/Nonviolence as part of their exalted feat choices, that's another matter. I'd never play such a character, or play with such a character. I'd end up doing violence to damned pacifist in frustration.

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-09, 11:05 AM
Using a single spell to shut down half the encounter rather than buffing you is not using magical might for his own glory. It's using magical might to not get you all killed.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 11:10 AM
I played in a campaign once where I convinced the DM to let me take VoP at a certain level in which I would have already had enough money to have payed a caster (psionic) to create a plane for me, that I could access with a command word. It was a plane of imprisonment/redemption. Then I took Vow of Poverty/Peace and would beat people unconscious and send them there.

This guy wasn't really a good DM, but he loved the rule of cool and he thought this was slightly cooler than plan A which involved having a character with enough strength to drag a mobile prison around on his back locking those he subdued in it and carrying them around.

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-09, 11:11 AM
I'm pretty sure owning a demiplane goes against the spirit of VoP.

And how are you getting people into this personal very expensive demiplane without magic items?

Telonius
2011-02-09, 11:15 AM
Question for those of you who have played VoP: Is it kosher for someone with a Vow of Poverty to carry loot from an adventure on the way to donate it to someone, as long as he doesn't actually use it? Or would that be breaking the vow?


I'd say it's probably going to be kosher. "Carrying" isn't owning or using. You're not going to violate your vow by helping Old Lady Withersby carry her groceries across the street. A reading that strict would even prevent you from actually donating any loot to charity, since in order to donate it you'd have to hold it for awhile.

There might be some extremely specific magic items that give a bonus just for being on someone's person. For something like that, it would be a tougher call. The ideal solution would be to identify the magic items before he tries to carry them, and ask one of his teammates to take the offending items. If for some reason that isn't possible, as DM I wouldn't rule that's a violation of the oath for as long as the character is unaware of the bonus. As soon as he becomes aware of it, I'd rule he has to drop it like a hot potato.

Gnaeus
2011-02-09, 11:18 AM
2. Agreed, except it's much easier to reach a smart wizard with a spell, than it's for the fighter to reach him unless you spend additional rounds to cast mobility spells on him.


Polymorph is also a mobility spell. I find that in most encounters, the polymorphed fighter getting within 15-30 feet of the wizard isn't the problem. The problem is what he can do to the wizard that won't be shrugged off by defenses.


I'd much rather have a gish/CoDzilla that can do those on his own actions rather than a fighter one needs to babysit.

Yes. Casters beat muggles at almost everything. Nothing new there. Muggles with buffs & gear beat muggles without buffs or gear. Whether you have a monk, a fighter, a cleric or a gish, giving a friendly wizard a PoP so that they can hit you with a Polymorph is always (once it becomes available) better than VoP, which was the point.


3. As a wizard you usually can do that. Getting off the right spell will nullify a good chunk of the enemy force.


If you are one-shotting the encounter, it doesn't matter if you have a VOP monk, a highly optimized fighter with WBL, or a warblade PAOed into a super-beast of doom wielding an artifact sword. All gear & buffs at that point are irrelevant.

Talya
2011-02-09, 11:23 AM
I'd say it's probably going to be kosher. "Carrying" isn't owning or using. You're not going to violate your vow by helping Old Lady Withersby carry her groceries across the street. A reading that strict would even prevent you from actually donating any loot to charity, since in order to donate it you'd have to hold it for awhile.

There might be some extremely specific magic items that give a bonus just for being on someone's person. For something like that, it would be a tougher call. The ideal solution would be to identify the magic items before he tries to carry them, and ask one of his teammates to take the offending items. If for some reason that isn't possible, as DM I wouldn't rule that's a violation of the oath for as long as the character is unaware of the bonus. As soon as he becomes aware of it, I'd rule he has to drop it like a hot potato.

Yeah. Intent is everything.

Although... if "carrying isn't owning or using" what if you loot a handy haversack full if gold to donate to charity? Do you have to dump the gold out into a normal bag so you're not getting the benefit of the haversack while you carry it? :)

Keld Denar
2011-02-09, 11:29 AM
Having a VoP character in your group actually gives you a decent outlet for liquidating the crap magic items your DM might drop on you. Normally, vendoring those magic items only nets you half market price. If you give them to the VoP character as part of his "share" of the loots, he can donate those magic items to his cause at full value. As long as the value of the item doesn't exceed 1/Nth of given pool of loot, where N is the number of party members, you should be fine.

And Callista, touching wealth isn't gonna strip you of your powers. You can't throw a gold piece at a VoP character and watch him fall. He's gotta be able to carry the wealth at some point...how else is he going to get it from the dungeon back to temple to donate it? Force someone else to bear his burden? Thats not very ascetic, IMO. So long as the VoP character doesn't derive any benefit from the possession of the item and doesn't go to great lengths to avoid releaving himself of the item, keeping a magical sword strapped to your backpack that you never draw isn't gonna make you fall.

Zaydos
2011-02-09, 11:34 AM
At level 7 you have (from PHB):
Solid Fog: Good BC as long as the enemy can't teleport. Makes ranged attacks against them or by them difficult.
Evard's Black Tentacles: Useful against humanoid foes and CR 7 or lower creatures if they're all bunched together. Mathematically compared to the MM it requires a CL of 12 to win grapple checks reliably against most CR 9 creatures and it gets worse from there (although you'll almost always beat CR 5-6 creatures).
Polymorph:Turn fighter into hydra. Hydra-Fighter goes to town in melee with 7 natural attacks at the end of a charge. Hydra-Fighter laughs.

I've played a 9th level wizard with a jacked up CL just for Evard's Black Tentacles. Polymorph was still the better spell and he was using it on his familiar (this is because the DM suggested a pixie familiar; although I also had a month of break before I got to play the character and was bored so I ran him through arena style fights against most of the MM and mathematically determined the chance of Evard's Black Tentacles succeeding against everything within 2 CR of him; polymorph was his best spell).

Polymorph was just as silly on the swordsage as the familiar; but the swordsage didn't want it.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 11:34 AM
I'm pretty sure owning a demiplane goes against the spirit of VoP.

And how are you getting people into this personal very expensive demiplane without magic items?

The way I convinced him to dictate is was that I didn't own the plane, I was simply the only person that had access to it. The way he allowed me access was I could go there and back via short ritual (that required no components), and I could take willing (or unconscious) creatures with me.

For the record I would probably never allow this in one of my games unless another party member had an item that allowed them access to the plane. This DM was not very good, and this is honestly the tip of the iceberg for some of the things he let me (and other players) get away with.

The worst he ever let me do:

First off:
I was playing a gold dragon with the half dragon(Styx) template applied.

Second off:
I died and had reincarnate cast on me. He decided having me come back as a golem would be a good idea.

Third off:
During character recreation he allowed me leadership with a artificer as a cohort. He allowed me to take the artificer feats that reduce cost/time of crafting multiple times, with the effects stacking even though I actively tried to convince him this was a bad idea.

Fourth:
When I had -100% time/cost on my cohort I had him make a new shell for my body. It was around 5,000 platinum shields that formed a dragon, but could change shape. As far as rules go he essentially made it a construct dragon.

Fifth:
He allowed us to take levels in templates, and I asked if I could take symbiote. He said yes.

Sixth:
I decided to confront a red dragon I'd heard about by myself so that I could try and take him over (go symbiote). He told me I was so powerful that I essentially didn't have to worry about the confrontation, and that I won.

Seventh:
When trying to figure out the stats for my host he told me the dragon was the size of a small city. He gave me actual dimensions that was ridiculous. I found the entry in the Draconomicon that talked about dragons sizes going up beyond standard. The final calculation was something around 360-500 HD. Imagine the spellcasting capability this dragon would have had. He allowed this.

It was at this point the campaign ended because I told him it was no fun because I could just do whatever I wanted, and honestly - what was the point?

So yeah, the guy wasn't a very good DM. Vow of Poverty with a demiplane? Tip of the iceberg.

Talya
2011-02-09, 11:39 AM
First off:
I was playing a gold dragon with the half dragon template applied.


You didn't need to go further than this.

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 11:41 AM
Druids are independent of everything but natural spell... Hense why they are at the top of tier one. Planar Shep helps too...

Psyren
2011-02-09, 11:45 AM
You didn't need to go further than this.

+10


Druids are independent of everything but natural spell... Hense why they are at the top of tier one. Planar Shep helps too...

They don't even need that. Why, you can make a caster druid who stays humanoid just fine, and it will steamroll everything in most campaigns - SpC and PHB2 alone give it a metric ton of toys to play with.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 11:57 AM
You didn't need to go further than this.

There is a reason the guy who allowed that is no longer a part of the group. What was really funny was the things he was giving the other players, that he thought kept the party balanced, were atrocious in comparison. We had one guy who got the vampire template (meh), and one guy who got the ability to do a full melee attack at range. Then you had me, and another player with divine rank 1. Because he told us we could take levels in divine rank.

Just remembering the crap he pulled is getting me aggravated again. As a player he was one of those guys who never reads the full feat description, and just does what he thinks it means. This feat makes me a gestalt rogue/monk, this feat gives me 4 levels of wizard, etc. etc.

EDIT: And for the record, from the SRD:
"'Half-dragon' is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature)."

So that part, at least, was RAW legal. I still never would have allowed it...

CycloneJoker
2011-02-09, 12:21 PM
Dude, full MagicMart™ access means Fighter-Dude at LV 11, assuming average WBL, an at-will ring of Polymorph and 2-10K more equipment. I admit, a higher CL would be better, but at this point, I think the monk officially sucks.

Callista
2011-02-09, 01:02 PM
VOP characters don't inconvenience the party at all. Quite the opposite. While everyone else is fighting over that one popular loot item, the VOP character is content to take any items (regardless of how useless they are) that equal their share of the value (to be donated to a charity of their choice).

Now, if they take Vows of Peace/Nonviolence as part of their exalted feat choices, that's another matter. I'd never play such a character, or play with such a character. I'd end up doing violence to damned pacifist in frustration.I agree that Vow of Peace/Nonviolence can be a problem; but I don't think that it's unplayable. There are ways to make it work; it works quite well in an all-Good and mostly-Exalted party because in that kind of a group, nobody thinks of killing as the first option, and while they wouldn't be as extreme as the party's pacifist, they would generally tend to welcome the challenge of saving the world without killing anyone.

Greenish
2011-02-09, 01:05 PM
saving the world without killing anyone.You can't make an omelette…

Callista
2011-02-09, 01:14 PM
Yeah, but see, that's the challenge, isn't it? And it's a challenge that your extreme-Good aligned PCs would be glad to take up.

(And you certainly can make an omelette without breaking eggs. Just use egg substitute. If you're a good enough chef, it will taste just as good...)

randomhero00
2011-02-09, 01:24 PM
Just personal experience but VoP is terrible in any game I've played in. Except *maybe* at the low level range of 2-5ish. For druids its actually pretty decent (assuming wildshaper) until close to level 10.

Talya
2011-02-09, 01:25 PM
Some people just need killin'.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-09, 01:31 PM
I agree that Vow of Peace/Nonviolence can be a problem; but I don't think that it's unplayable. There are ways to make it work; it works quite well in an all-Good and mostly-Exalted party because in that kind of a group, nobody thinks of killing as the first option, and while they wouldn't be as extreme as the party's pacifist, they would generally tend to welcome the challenge of saving the world without killing anyone.

It's cool if everyone is on board with it. I've never seen this happen. I generally get a fair amount of differentiation between characters...I believe players do this intentionally. Non-violent chars are fairly unusual in D&D.

I'd put it as generally unplayable. Having a full party of wizards is more likely.

Flickerdart
2011-02-09, 01:32 PM
You can't make an omelette…
Hey, Mindrape saves the world without having to kill anybody.

What's that? It's [Evil] to spare your enemies now? Well gosh golly darn it.

Psyren
2011-02-09, 01:38 PM
Now, if they take Vows of Peace/Nonviolence as part of their exalted feat choices, that's another matter. I'd never play such a character, or play with such a character. I'd end up doing violence to damned pacifist in frustration.

Vow of Nonviolence actually isn't that bad. You only "fall" if you help the party to gut the evildoer, rather than if you're simply overruled. Furthermore, being betrayed by an enemy you had previously spared is grounds to wipe them out. And the benefits are useful to any caster using nonlethal takedowns.

Vow of Peace is the one that needs to die in a thousand hellfires :smallannoyed:

randomhero00
2011-02-09, 01:39 PM
It's cool if everyone is on board with it. I've never seen this happen. I generally get a fair amount of differentiation between characters...I believe players do this intentionally. Non-violent chars are fairly unusual in D&D.

I'd put it as generally unplayable. Having a full party of wizards is more likely.

Well I've known one DM to run almost exclusively political intrigue. And there might be like 1-2 combats in an entire campaign. So some people do use them, or could have a use for them.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 01:55 PM
Hey on discussions involving exalted characters just remember:

It's an evil act (torture) to take an un-cooperative enemy prisoner and knock him out every time he wakes up, but not an evil act to beat him so far into the negatives that it'll take him a month to wake up.

Subdualing someone to -10000 = Exalted
Subdualing some to -10 3 times = Evil

Callista
2011-02-09, 02:04 PM
That's just an artifact of the subdual-damage system...

Equivalent would be just drugging the guy to keep him from running, or taking 20 on Use Rope.

Telonius
2011-02-09, 02:06 PM
Hey on discussions involving exalted characters just remember:

It's an evil act (torture) to take an un-cooperative enemy prisoner and knock him out every time he wakes up, but not an evil act to beat him so far into the negatives that it'll take him a month to wake up.

Subdualing someone to -10000 = Exalted
Subdualing some to -10 3 times = Evil

One creative solution I've heard is a combination of a Bag of Holding, a Bottle of Air, a Sustaining Spoon, and a stern explanation that they'll be obliterated if they attack the inside of the bag.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-09, 02:09 PM
Some people just need killin'.

You sound like Jayne from Firefly.

Callista
2011-02-09, 02:22 PM
One creative solution I've heard is a combination of a Bag of Holding, a Bottle of Air, a Sustaining Spoon, and a stern explanation that they'll be obliterated if they attack the inside of the bag.Flesh to Stone+Shrink Object make the perfect prison. A Break Enchantment restores the prisoner without risk.

Eldariel
2011-02-09, 02:43 PM
Druids are independent of everything but natural spell... Hense why they are at the top of tier one. Planar Shep helps too...

Eh, I wouldn't say they're on top. All tier 1 is pretty even. Druid just probably has the most even power curve and requires the least optimization to truly crush.

Talya
2011-02-09, 03:02 PM
You sound like Jayne from Firefly.


I was going more for John Casey from Chuck.

Heh. Close enough?

Noedig
2011-02-09, 03:52 PM
Well this turned in to a monstrosity of a thread, didn't it? Lol next time I have a character that seems cool, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

tbarrie
2011-02-09, 03:53 PM
This is the crucial thing. And the bit about being more vulnerable than a Paladin to the whims of the DM in terms of losing everything by falling.

I find the idea that RPG characters vary in terms of how vulnerable they are to the whims of the DM hilarious.

Keld Denar
2011-02-09, 04:03 PM
Well this turned in to a monstrosity of a thread, didn't it? Lol next time I have a character that seems cool, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

Why? Discussion is good. It helps spread ideas. Some ideas are just voiced more loudly than others. Regardless, I hope you, and everyone else who reads this, has learned something. Isn't that the whole point?

Psyren
2011-02-09, 04:10 PM
Well this turned in to a monstrosity of a thread, didn't it? Lol next time I have a character that seems cool, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

The Playground - deflating VoP Monks for nearly a decade

Gnaeus
2011-02-09, 04:16 PM
I find the idea that RPG characters vary in terms of how vulnerable they are to the whims of the DM hilarious.

It isn't just the vulnerability, it is the inexplicable desire to screw certain concepts. In my experience, reinforced by what I have seen on threads, there are LOTS of DMs who chuckle at the thought of presenting unsolvable ethical dilemmas to make exalteds or paladins fall, who wouldn't go out of their way to steal a spellbook.

I confess, I used to be that way too, as a result of 1st ed, where Paladin was a Fighter ++. If you are actually gaining a huge advantage as a result of that status, it is reasonable that you should have to struggle to keep it. In 3.5, the paladin is near the bottom of the power curve, and very few exalted feats are broken (too strong), so that really becomes unfair, but something of the mindset remains.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 04:23 PM
It isn't just the vulnerability, it is the inexplicable desire to screw certain concepts. In my experience, reinforced by what I have seen on threads, there are LOTS of DMs who chuckle at the thought of presenting unsolvable ethical dilemmas to make exalteds or paladins fall, who wouldn't go out of their way to steal a spellbook.

I confess, I used to be that way too, as a result of 1st ed, where Paladin was a Fighter ++. If you are actually gaining a huge advantage as a result of that status, it is reasonable that you should have to struggle to keep it. In 3.5, the paladin is near the bottom of the power curve, and very few exalted feats are broken (too strong), so that really becomes unfair, but something of the mindset remains.

As a DM I've never targeted specific classes for ruination, but I did have a random encounter after which, when it was completed, I was told by one of the players that if he had been playing a Paladin or Exalted character he would have been very upset at me because he couldn't think of a good way out of the situation.

The party heard screaming from a nearby house in the hills. Upon investigating they find a troll chained to a wall and a gnome cooking something. Right as they bust in the door they see a wound in the troll disappearing, and the gnome is nibbling on something.

They tried to communicate with the troll psychically and got the mental impression that it desired death. The gnome was CN, and terrified of the party, even offering them some of his food. He was only doing it because it was the only food in the area, and without a replacement food source he would probably die of starvation.

Keld Denar
2011-02-09, 04:26 PM
The party heard screaming from a nearby house in the hills. Upon investigating they find a troll chained to a wall and a gnome cooking something. Right as they bust in the door they see a wound in the troll disappearing, and the gnome is nibbling on something.

They tried to communicate with the troll psychically and got the mental impression that it desired death. The gnome was CN, and terrified of the party, even offering them some of his food. He was only doing it because it was the only food in the area, and without a replacement food source he would probably die of starvation.

The solution is simple. Kill them all and remand judgement to their respective dieties. When in doubt, outsource to a higher (or lower) plane!

:VorpalTribbleGrin:

navar100
2011-02-09, 05:10 PM
The thing is, about half the monster manual above a certain level can fly. Having to stand around twiddling your thumbs in half the fights (or forcing the wizard to spend the ever-so-mportant first turn and a spell slot just enabling you to do anything) gets a bit bothersome after a while.

That's campaign dependent. It is irrelevant how many monsters in the manual can fly. What's relevant is how many opponents the DM uses can fly. You're not fighting the monster manual.

Sure, flying opponents will be a problem. A DM will most likely use them. However, if "every" opponent is flying, the DM is a jerk, no difference than a DM for a campaign where every bad guy has fire resistance after your wizard learns Fireball.

As for "forcing" a wizard to cast a spell on you, that's called teamwork.

navar100
2011-02-09, 05:23 PM
As a DM I've never targeted specific classes for ruination, but I did have a random encounter after which, when it was completed, I was told by one of the players that if he had been playing a Paladin or Exalted character he would have been very upset at me because he couldn't think of a good way out of the situation.

The party heard screaming from a nearby house in the hills. Upon investigating they find a troll chained to a wall and a gnome cooking something. Right as they bust in the door they see a wound in the troll disappearing, and the gnome is nibbling on something.

They tried to communicate with the troll psychically and got the mental impression that it desired death. The gnome was CN, and terrified of the party, even offering them some of his food. He was only doing it because it was the only food in the area, and without a replacement food source he would probably die of starvation.

Free the troll. Have the gnome travel with the party for a more suitable location to reside. To paraphrase Sam Kinison, the gnome should move to where the food is.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 05:25 PM
Free the troll. Have the gnome travel with the party for a more suitable location to reside. To paraphrase Sam Kinison, the gnome should move to where the food is.

I wish I could remember what they wound up doing. It involved freeing the troll(who immediately jumped into the fireplace in pursuit of death), and leaving the gnome alone after deciding that they just didn't want to touch this situation with a 10 ft. pole. This all, of course, is after a 2 hour discussion on what they should do.

Beelzebub1111
2011-02-09, 05:30 PM
All this talk of donating got me thinking of a scenario where a VoP character donates a Sphere of Annihilation he found to an orphanage

Starbuck_II
2011-02-09, 05:31 PM
Well this turned in to a monstrosity of a thread, didn't it? Lol next time I have a character that seems cool, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

Nah, just don't exaggerate. Tell it like it is only. When you pretended VoP was almighty we have to show you the truth because we didn't want you believing a non-truth. We care about truth too much.

Greenish
2011-02-09, 05:55 PM
All this talk of donating got me thinking of a scenario where a VoP character donates a Sphere of Annihilation he found to an orphanageIt was self-defence!

Callista
2011-02-09, 05:56 PM
All this talk of donating got me thinking of a scenario where a VoP character donates a Sphere of Annihilation he found to an orphanageThat's horrible!! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, wouldn't the character in that situation just attempt to destroy the thing instead?

Kuma Kode
2011-02-09, 10:22 PM
Seriously, though, wouldn't the character in that situation just attempt to destroy the thing instead?

SoA is not inherently evil, and it does have legitimate uses, so I dunno.

Keld Denar
2011-02-10, 12:53 AM
If you can control it, you can use it to excavate mines and dig wells, or trench for irrigation or other purposes. Heck, you could probably even bore plumbing and sewage lines! Think of all the good it could do!

Callista
2011-02-10, 01:05 AM
True--only if you can control it, though. Is there a foolproof way to control the thing? Because if there's not, I couldn't see anybody really trying to use it for irrigation ditches or anything of the sort--too much risk of it killing someone eventually.

Kuma Kode
2011-02-10, 01:14 AM
True--only if you can control it, though. Is there a foolproof way to control the thing? Because if there's not, I couldn't see anybody really trying to use it for irrigation ditches or anything of the sort--too much risk of it killing someone eventually.

Use #492 Gene pool cleaning.

Volthawk
2011-02-11, 12:49 PM
True--only if you can control it, though. Is there a foolproof way to control the thing? Because if there's not, I couldn't see anybody really trying to use it for irrigation ditches or anything of the sort--too much risk of it killing someone eventually.

Well:


A sphere of annihilation is static, resting in some spot as if it were a normal hole. It can be caused to move, however, by mental effort (think of this as a mundane form of telekinesis, too weak to move actual objects but a force to which the sphere, being weightless, is sensitive). A character’s ability to gain control of a sphere of annihilation (or to keep controlling one) is based on the result of a control check against DC 30 (a move action). A control check is 1d20 + character level + character Int modifier. If the check succeeds, the character can move the sphere (perhaps to bring it into contact with an enemy) as a free action.


So yeah, pretty hard to impossible for most people.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-11, 01:08 PM
All these posts going on and on about "the Wizard should control the battlefield" and "why waste time buffing/polymorphing/etc the Fighter?" really bother me...

You spend a round buffing the Fighter because this is a group game, get it?

Talya
2011-02-11, 01:22 PM
You spend a round buffing the Fighter because this is a group game, get it?

Spending a round buffing the fighter is often more likely to get the fighter killed than simply starting with the encounter-ender.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-11, 01:26 PM
Spending a round buffing the fighter is often more likely to get the fighter killed than simply starting with the encounter-ender.

So...

Your DM is more interested in killing PCs than in making sure everyone enjoys the game, eh?

navar100
2011-02-11, 01:31 PM
Spending a round buffing the fighter is often more likely to get the fighter killed than simply starting with the encounter-ender.

You're assuming the wizard has such a spell prepared, would work against every single bad guy in the fight for every single combat ever to happen, and no bad guy ever makes the save or able to overcome it for a particular spell that has no save. You're also assuming the fighter is a pathetic incompetent doofus unable to get past an earthworm because he can't trip it even though he has Improved Trip and likes to use it a lot.

Talya
2011-02-11, 01:32 PM
So...

Your DM is more interested in killing PCs than in making sure everyone enjoys the game, eh?

That's not the DM's fault. It's the design of the game. When you're dealing with encounters that can kill a character in one round (whether through a ridiculous full-attack, or simply by a save or die ability), neutralizing that encounter as fast as possible is the best possible action for the group.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-11, 01:46 PM
That's not the DM's fault. It's the design of the game. When you're dealing with encounters that can kill a character in one round (whether through a ridiculous full-attack, or simply by a save or die ability), neutralizing that encounter as fast as possible is the best possible action for the group.

Yes... and if the Fighter gets Polymorphed, then he's not likely to be one-shotted (or at least not as likely).

I've been in games where a multi-class WarMage/Favored Soul went to Mystic Theurge... and was still effective.

Sure, not as effective as the Crossbow Sniper with the Quickened template... but there were some scenarios that guy couldn't do squat against.

I've seen level 16 parties (without any Tier-1 classes) defeat CR 19-20 encounters because they used teamwork... not world-beater spells.

Cogidubnus
2011-02-11, 01:49 PM
This discussion really confused me at first, cos of all the scrubbing. Guess Monk + VoP = serious bugbear for most people.

Anyway, Monk's are infamously weak. But it depends on your play style. Here in the playground, there's no way a Vow of Poverty monk would stand up. I'm not even a good optimiser and I've accidentally built things that by level 20 did upwards of 1000 damage a round.

But if you come from a group where level 20 fighter is common, and a dangerous threat, wizards spend half their spell slots casting Identify and no one's heard of the Spell Compendium, then yeah, it'd feel a little unfair. Maybe.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 01:57 PM
've seen level 16 parties (without any Tier-1 classes) defeat CR 19-20 encounters because they used teamwork... not world-beater spells.
This is entirely the point. Those "world-beater spells"? They make teamwork unnecessary. Why should the Druid bother buffing the Fighter when he can buff himself and his pet to the point where he can do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can? Why should the Cleric heal people when he can spend his spell slots to turn himself into 15 foot tall killing machine?

It's not that the Wizard should control the battlefield, it's that the Wizard can. And since so much of D&D is about combat, the Wizard controlling the battlefield is a better use of the Wizard's resources than the Wizard doing almost anything else.

Teamwork is not the goal of D&D. The goal is "Complete the story". Completing the story means surviving, and surviving generally means playing classes to their strengths.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-11, 02:05 PM
This is entirely the point. Those "world-beater spells"? They make teamwork unnecessary. Why should the Druid bother buffing the Fighter when he can buff himself and his pet to the point where he can do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can? Why should the Cleric heal people when he can spend his spell slots to turn himself into 15 foot tall killing machine?

It's not that the Wizard should control the battlefield, it's that the Wizard can. And since so much of D&D is about combat, the Wizard controlling the battlefield is a better use of the Wizard's resources than the Wizard doing almost anything else.

Teamwork is not the goal of D&D. The goal is "Complete the story". Completing the story means surviving, and surviving generally means playing classes to their strengths.

No, no, no.

The Goal of D&D is enjoying some time with your friends.

The Role of the DM is making sure everyone has a good time, while (maybe) telling a story. Even if that story is just "a group of heroes go into a dungeon".

Because so much of D&D is about combat, making sure that everyone participates in the combat is much more important than just using "world-beater-spell-X" every time.

Eldariel
2011-02-11, 02:13 PM
No, no, no.

The Goal of D&D is enjoying some time with your friends.

The Role of the DM is making sure everyone has a good time, while (maybe) telling a story. Even if that story is just "a group of heroes go into a dungeon".

Because so much of D&D is about combat, making sure that everyone participates in the combat is much more important than just using "world-beater-spell-X" every time.

The goal of D&D is fun, but fun is so subjective. Some might need an epic story to truly enjoy the fantasy feel; some might love the interactive fantasy world. To others, the numbers and the challenge of the campaign itself is what keeps the thing alive and some simply view it as a social event that allows them to spend some time with friends with the game itself being secondary. The thesis you've presented here isn't in any way universal; it's your view.

My personal favorite way of making sure everyone can contribute in most combats? Making sure everybody has a competent character. If you use all the PHB classes for whatever reason, that's your choice; there are options and those options really go long ways towards helping everyone have something to do regardless of what they want to play. Suddenly you cut the whole "people having to hold back/do what they wouldn't do so others can't contribute" (which isn't fun) out along with ensuring that the whole "people become useless 'cause they chose to play Commoner" doesn't happen. Feels like a win-win to me and all it takes is for the few more experienced members in the group to work with the less experienced members before the campaign starts to get the characters on a similar level.

Gnaeus
2011-02-11, 02:15 PM
This is entirely the point. Those "world-beater spells"? They make teamwork unnecessary. Why should the Druid bother buffing the Fighter when he can buff himself and his pet to the point where he can do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can? Why should the Cleric heal people when he can spend his spell slots to turn himself into 15 foot tall killing machine?

Teamwork is not the goal of D&D. The goal is "Complete the story". Completing the story means surviving, and surviving generally means playing classes to their strengths.


Because so much of D&D is about combat, making sure that everyone participates in the combat is much more important than just using "world-beater-spell-X" every time.

You are both right, in the context of different play styles. Some groups don't cooperate at all (In some, the other characters may even turn into the enemy). Other groups frown on characters who one shot encounters, and feel that the proper role for a caster is buffing the team. There isn't a wrong answer in the larger context, although there may be a wrong answer in the social dynamic of a particular group.


It's not that the Wizard should control the battlefield, it's that the Wizard can. And since so much of D&D is about combat, the Wizard controlling the battlefield is a better use of the Wizard's resources than the Wizard doing almost anything else.

And a buff on a melee character who does battlefield control, like a tripper, or a bull-rusher or grappler in the right circumstances, may be the most effective Battlefield control spell the wizard has. If I have a competent chain tripper in my group, I would rather Enlarge him than cast Grease, rather Polymorph him than cast Black Tentacles.

Telonius
2011-02-11, 02:20 PM
No, no, no.

The Goal of D&D is enjoying some time with your friends.

The Role of the DM is making sure everyone has a good time, while (maybe) telling a story. Even if that story is just "a group of heroes go into a dungeon".

Because so much of D&D is about combat, making sure that everyone participates in the combat is much more important than just using "world-beater-spell-X" every time.

Unfortunately those goals are in direct opposition to the rules of the game, as-written. Achieving them requires not just DM or player action, but (quite often) contrivance to the point where disbelief can't be suspended. The "Gentlemen's Agreement" only goes so far before it falls apart. A couple classes are Dr. Manhattan, a few are Ozymandias, a bunch are Rorschach, a few are Silk Specter, and one is Dollar Bill. If you actually had to design a real campaign for all of those folks, you'd have to have a really, really particular group of players and DM to make it even workable. The only other ways it could work would be in a group that doesn't understand the full capacity of the classes; a group where they've outlawed the high and low end of the scale; or a group where they've otherwise houseruled to prevent the worst of the power creep.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 02:24 PM
Gnaeus is right. There are times when teamwork and the right buffs and clever tactics win the day. That teamwork is a means to an end, though, not the end. Sometimes, though, a mass Save or Suck is just...better.

Talya
2011-02-11, 02:31 PM
As a sidepoint, i often find it amusing that the same people who will specify that the wizard always has the right spells memorized, or people always have access to the gear they want, etc., will be the first ones to argue that a VOP character won't get inherent bonuses to the abilities they want.

The numerous ways a VOP character can still get those permanent bonuses are, in general, far more likely than the wizard always being prepared or the players getting the exact gear they feel they need.

YMMV.

And VOP is still usually not great.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 02:35 PM
And VOP is still usually not great.
On this point, I think we are all in agreement.

It's only worth taking in an extremely low-magic setting (I'm talking Dark Sun level of magic item drought).

Talya
2011-02-11, 02:58 PM
On this point, I think we are all in agreement.

It's only worth taking in an extremely low-magic setting (I'm talking Dark Sun level of magic item drought).

Even medium-low magic settings make it more than worthwhile for certain builds. So long as your world isn't a giant magic shopping plaza and nobody is doing item creation in your party, it can even become quite powerful with the right optimizations. Certainly not for all characters, and certainly not without playing to its strengths, but it can be quite good.

I'm fairly sure my fist of the forest is going to continue to kick ass.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 03:02 PM
Without an Artificer in the party or a dedicated magic item crafter in the party or Val-U-Mart magic item bazaar or DM that believes in wishlists, then it's...decent.

It's a feat. A little on the weak side, but it's a feat. You can build around it to help mitigate it's rather glaring weaknesses, but it's still just a single feat.

Talya
2011-02-11, 03:34 PM
Without an Artificer in the party or a dedicated magic item crafter in the party or Val-U-Mart magic item bazaar or DM that believes in wishlists, then it's...decent.

It's a feat. A little on the weak side, but it's a feat. You can build around it to help mitigate it's rather glaring weaknesses, but it's still just a single feat.

Yeah. Sadly, it's actually two feats. Although it gives far more than two useful feats back if it's being used in an optimized way.

navar100
2011-02-11, 03:41 PM
That's not the DM's fault. It's the design of the game. When you're dealing with encounters that can kill a character in one round (whether through a ridiculous full-attack, or simply by a save or die ability), neutralizing that encounter as fast as possible is the best possible action for the group.

But the monster makes the save and you get killed anyway. That's the flaw in the thinking the wizard can just cast an encounter ending spell - the assumption the bad guy fails the saving throw, all of them for multiple opponents. There is no guarantee. It can work. Hooray for the wizard when it does. It's supposed to work sometimes. Go wizard, go!

It's a particular tactic. Casting a buff spell on the fighter is another particular tactic and can be just as effective. The buff could simply be protection against the monster's most dangerous attack so the fighter can freely wail on him.

Talya
2011-02-11, 03:44 PM
It's not an assumption. It's all about playing the odds. Which is more likely to succeed? Which is least likely to get someone (or even everyone!) killed. Everything is still subject to the random roll of the dice. There are situations where buffing the fighter will be the best option. In general? Probably not the best option in the majority of cases.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-11, 03:45 PM
But the monster makes the save and you get killed anyway. That's the flaw in the thinking the wizard can just cast an encounter ending spell - the assumption the bad guy fails the saving throw, all of them for multiple opponents. There is no guarantee. It can work. Hooray for the wizard when it does. It's supposed to work sometimes. Go wizard, go!

It's a particular tactic. Casting a buff spell on the fighter is another particular tactic and can be just as effective. The buff could simply be protection against the monster's most dangerous attack so the fighter can freely wail on him.

When playing rocket tag, the best move is always to fire a rocket. Incidentally, it needn't be a save-or-die. A thousand points of unblockable damage is a much more persuasive argument, delivered courtesy of a Mailman.

sonofzeal
2011-02-11, 03:48 PM
When playing rocket tag, the best move is always to fire a rocket. Incidentally, it needn't be a save-or-die. A thousand points of unblockable damage is a much more persuasive argument, delivered courtesy of a Mailman.
Think of the Fighter as a self-guiding rocket with its own initiative score - all it needs is for you to give it a payload.....

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-11, 03:52 PM
Think of the Fighter as a self-guiding rocket with its own initiative score - all it needs is for you to give it a fly speed and guidance system.....

Fixed it for you, my friend. Fixed it for you.