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Paseo H
2011-02-09, 01:55 AM
One good way to troll your players is to let them think that the good guy npcs are really the bad guys.

That's one thing I intend to do soon, and I was wanting to know what advice you all have for that sort of thing.

Here's one from me:

It's a lot easier than one thinks to be a Fake Complete Monster, as long as people take you at your word, anyway.

The person in question could kill an evil enemy, but when asked, be all "lol I killed him just to watch him die."

Though he may have to eat a kitten or two to blend in with the enemy.

ffone
2011-02-09, 02:08 AM
What's your 'good guy npc's motivation for acting all 'I'm a kitten-killing sadist lol' What makes him 'good'?

I like to use players' own metagaming, trope expectations, and quasipolitical worldviews against them. For example, if they reflexively assume that all obese, wealthy male nobleman are corrupt and evil, make one who is all those things (except corrupt), possibly annoying and has politically incorrect views about class/gender/race, but is actually a good guy in the important senses (helpful to party if used right, good-aligned, etc.)

Talbot
2011-02-09, 02:11 AM
My players historically assume everyone is evil anyways, so it's never very difficult.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 02:12 AM
The idea of a redeemed baddie is something that players are ridiculously resistant to.

A serial killer they turned in at level 3 is now the Town Mayor!?! NO WAI

Triskavanski
2011-02-09, 02:32 AM
Have him played by Tim Curry.

Mikeavelli
2011-02-09, 02:37 AM
What's your 'good guy npc's motivation for acting all 'I'm a kitten-killing sadist lol' What makes him 'good'?

I like to use players' own metagaming, trope expectations, and quasipolitical worldviews against them. For example, if they reflexively assume that all obese, wealthy male nobleman are corrupt and evil, make one who is all those things (except corrupt), possibly annoying and has politically incorrect views about class/gender/race, but is actually a good guy in the important senses (helpful to party if used right, good-aligned, etc.)

This sometimes works unintentionally, and in reverse.

I had a town run by a council of noblemen who were all Lawful Neutral types that tended towards the side of good. I.E. Taxes weren't excessive, didn't start aggressive wars, etc. They were mercantile sorts who thought peace was more profitable than war, and they were right.

Unfortunately, the Players decided they must be incompetent, greedy, and evil. The campaign went so far off the rails that an NPC adventuring group led by a Paladin was hired to deal with them.

The PC's won when it came to a fight, but they felt so bad about killing the Paladin and friends that they finally got the hint.

holywhippet
2011-02-09, 02:37 AM
One thing we ran into in one campaign was a local baron having a meeting with some goblins and their barghest master. We attacked him because we figured he was associating with evil. Thing is, we never found out what his alignment was - and in the game world setting, being lawful was more important than being good. As such, he was acting within the law by negotiating with the goblins.

You could have a similar scenario with a paladin trying to negotiate with some kind of evil beings - the party would assume he is conspiring with them.

Paseo H
2011-02-09, 02:39 AM
What's your 'good guy npc's motivation for acting all 'I'm a kitten-killing sadist lol' What makes him 'good'?

I like to use players' own metagaming, trope expectations, and quasipolitical worldviews against them. For example, if they reflexively assume that all obese, wealthy male nobleman are corrupt and evil, make one who is all those things (except corrupt), possibly annoying and has politically incorrect views about class/gender/race, but is actually a good guy in the important senses (helpful to party if used right, good-aligned, etc.)

Here is an example from Naruto. Massive spoilers ahead:

Itachi Uchiha, at the beginning of the series, is known to have killed almost his entire clan, and when asked why, he basically said it was for target practice. In his final battle with his brother, he reveals that his motivation is to steal his brothers eyes in order to gain greater eye powers for himself. However, we learn that both of those things are lies...he killed his clan in order to stop them from a coup de tat that would lead to a new ninja war, and in fact he was unable to kill his brother, even under orders, because he loved him. However, a couple very cold acts keep him from being seen as a complete good guy, namely inflicting mind rape on his brother and on the mentor figure.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-09, 02:40 AM
Give him a goatee, works every time. (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0039.html):smallamused:

mucat
2011-02-09, 02:49 AM
Do th NPCs have enemies who would like to discredit them? Let the PCs find planted evidence of vile crimes, or just to run-of-the-mill corruption. Don't let the evidence just fall into their laps -- that would be too obvious; they should have to work a little to find it. But to be fair, do leave some inconsistencies and loose threads pointing toward what's really happening.

Leon
2011-02-09, 02:53 AM
The last BBEG we encountered turned out to be a Big Depressed and Bored Girl (Rainbow Naga living in the sewers of Madrid...).

We decided not to attack it given how big it turned out to be once it got out of the sewer and ended up convincing it the bard loved it and would give it shelter if it wanted it and then she left to hunt down the remaining impressionist artists

Lurkmoar
2011-02-09, 02:54 AM
Give him a goatee, works every time. (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0039.html):smallamused:

I blame Star Trek for the whole goatee=evil thing.

My party once killed a Chaotic Good Sevana inventor because he hit all the high lights of a Mad Scientist: prone to techno babble, his laboratory was full of strange tomes and odd devices and he just wouldn't stop talking. His stated goals were to bring freedom to all, spread his genius and finally to humiliate and to kill CAPTAIN ANDERSON MARVEL!

In hindsight, I should have realized that him holding a wand of lightning bolts in the air while making those proclamations to the party could have been misunderstood.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-09, 03:00 AM
I blame Star Trek for the whole goatee=evil thing.

I think it helped create the Evil Double Wears Goatee Parody Trope, but it hardly created it.


My party once killed a Chaotic Good Sevana inventor because he hit all the high lights of a Mad Scientist: prone to techno babble, his laboratory was full of strange tomes and odd devices and he just wouldn't stop talking. His stated goals were to bring freedom to all, spread his genius and finally to humiliate and to kill CAPTAIN ANDERSON MARVEL!

In hindsight, I should have realized that him holding a wand of lightning bolts in the air while making those proclamations to the party could have been misunderstood.
Announcing premeditated murder? Yeah, that will do it.:smallsigh:

Lurkmoar
2011-02-09, 03:09 AM
Announcing premeditated murder? Yeah, that will do it.:smallsigh:

Captain Anderson did kill both of his kids and kidnapped his wife, so there's that. The party didn't know that at the time of course.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-09, 03:36 AM
Captain Anderson did kill both of his kids and kidnapped his wife, so there's that. The party didn't know that at the time of course.
Of course. Still, revenge is an ugly thing, even if it is justified. Considering what the players knew at the time, I am not surprised they thought the inventor evil.

Eldan
2011-02-09, 04:35 AM
Given by how stupid my players sometimes acted? Give him a black robe and let him act perfectly normal. It will take about five minutes.

Rasman
2011-02-09, 04:43 AM
It needs a lot of build up. The "double take" approach is always a good way to go about it.

First, you introduce an NPC that's a "Good Guy." He helps the party and the Party helps him. He seems normal and nice to the Party and there's nothing that seems evil /BBEGesque about him. As the Party is returning from the "final" quest he's sent them on before he can help them with their goals and are coming into or close to, for lack of a better term, his base of operations they find a battlefield, and a rather epic one at that. They find the guy JUST as the final blow is landed by your "True Good Guy." Thinking that their "Good" ally has just been slain, they'll attempt to avenge him. He'll be forced to fight back, but will be pulling punches since he knows what this guy has been up to. He could possibly use diplomacy during the fight to try and explain himself, but not quite obviously. Try lines like "I'm not sure you know who you're dealing with?" or something along those lines. Something that sounds cocky to them, but for him it sounds logical. He should probably be sufficiently high enough in level that he can beat them into a pulp with a Merciful weapon. Heck, I'd make it a point to have him change weapons to fight them, since he DID kill their former "Ally," but you obviously don't want him killing them. This will likely cause some tension since they'll MOST likely go all out against him and not really being able to touch him will drive them mad, especially if it leads to a TPW, even if it really isn't a TPW. Having their characters wake up, stripped of their equipment, and possibly bound would be a "startling" development. After they'd all woken up, he'd explain himself and the real situation and what he'd tricked them into helping them do.

That's how I'd handle the situation. It requires build up and a bit of time, but the story is more interesting and the drama from the plot will make them more interested in what follows.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-09, 05:33 AM
When I want this to happen I usually put in some sort of mystery villain type thing (like a doppleganger assassinating important nobles) and then throw in some circumstantial evidence that the person in question might be the villain in question, or the person behind the villain's activities. Or just incorporate exisiting villains/monsters. Perhaps if orcs are raiding the countryside have them have a chest with orcish gold in it in their possession. Players jump to conclusions and BAM! next thing you know the NPC is dead (which is why I only do this rarely).

Paseo H
2011-02-09, 06:14 AM
I just now did my first step in my plan.

This enigmatic young woman just showed up, sliced a minor villain's arm off, and when questioned, said that she had been ordered to kill her but was going to disobey the order because the minor villain was not really a bad person.

Then as she gets in a car to take the villain to the hospital, the enigmatic woman refers to the PC by the PC's name, despite it never being mentioned.

The truth is, the enigmatic woman is in with one of the major antagonists, almost an equal in terms of power, but she is not evil, in fact she serves as a therapist and morality pet of sorts for the antagonist. Later on the player will discover their past and I won't clarify for him that she was actually the conscience of their team, keeping them from being too evil.

Coidzor
2011-02-09, 06:38 AM
Well there's the xykon crown method that Rich used to get Miko to think that Roy was evil.

Radar
2011-02-09, 06:47 AM
There are some ways to pull this off. Consider such a scenario: old prophecies about a demon invasion are about to be fullfilled (specific star alligment, some weird, unnatural signs etc.), yet they say that the material plane is safe unless someone foolish enough invites the demons. Meanwhile PCs hear about a shady group of powerful individuals, that are gathering strange artifacts all over the known world - by favor, money, theft or force. What will the players think about such a group of NPCs? The point is, any adventuring group will look morally chalenged if seen from outside and out of context.

Another way is to make the evil guys trick PCs into thinking, that your noble NPCs are the true danger. It's fairly easy and such preconvintions are quite persistant, so it will take a while for your players to understand, they were tricked.


Here is an example from Naruto. Massive spoilers ahead:

Itachi Uchiha, at the beginning of the series, is known to have killed almost his entire clan, and when asked why, he basically said it was for target practice. In his final battle with his brother, he reveals that his motivation is to steal his brothers eyes in order to gain greater eye powers for himself. However, we learn that both of those things are lies...he killed his clan in order to stop them from a coup de tat that would lead to a new ninja war, and in fact he was unable to kill his brother, even under orders, because he loved him. However, a couple very cold acts keep him from being seen as a complete good guy, namely inflicting mind rape on his brother and on the mentor figure.
A rather bad example as far as storytelling goes IMO. It felt like a heavy ret-con and pulling something like this in your campaign won't be well recieved.

Lurkmoar
2011-02-09, 06:55 AM
A rather bad example as far as storytelling goes IMO. It felt like a heavy ret-con and pulling something like this in your campaign won't be well recieved.

There was only one little hint way back in the Land of Waves Arc. Sasuke talked about someone crying and he didn't speak like it was himself. Not much of a hint though.

Shademan
2011-02-09, 07:06 AM
for some reason my players think that the hunched, totaly bandaged (only his left eye and the scorched skin around it is visible trough the bandages) man who is both the leader of the equalient of KGB and became the kings cheif advicor some years ago, is evil.
Sure he have a bad temper and likes to give people electric shocks with his cane...
but still! why so distrustfull?

Leon
2011-02-09, 11:03 AM
I think with the Naga we more or less left it be at first as the party has encountered and been used as pawns by a couple of Demi Liches so far to the point where we brush off the idle threats of lesser creatures trying to instill fear in us for what ever reasons, so when it turned out to be a Good creature it was well that we hadn't attacked it

Iceforge
2011-02-09, 12:58 PM
I find with many groups, the trouble is convincing them someone is a good guy at all.

I actually only once or twice ever played the "npc ally who is really evil and out to kill you"-trope at any group, but it seems many other GM's are very fond of it, which makes roleplayers (in my experience, anyway) exceptionally paranoid of anything with a friendly attitude.

Just have a NPC offer them resources for free, to aid their course, as he agrees it is a noble one, or something like that, an they will be talking amongst each other about how this NPC is obviously evil and out to get them.

Make sure to have a description written down and ready, with a good amount of detail as well, as this will give the impression that this NPC is important to the plot and they might assume he is not just evil and bad, but is most likely the BBEG

Tyndmyr
2011-02-09, 01:02 PM
My players historically assume everyone is evil anyways, so it's never very difficult.

This. If I want to be sure my players will justify an NPC as evil, I give him something expensive.

Friv
2011-02-09, 01:08 PM
Just make him sort of a jerk.

I've found that players tend to assume that a person's goodness and their niceness are directly relational. Have a character who is snide, makes fun of the players, and insinuates that various other people are less than noble. The players will be shocked to discover that he's not actually a total monster.

I call this the Snape effect.

jpreem
2011-02-09, 01:18 PM
Put them in a dungeon and say that there is loot.
That means that they are evil monsters ready to be killed.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-09, 01:20 PM
Put them in a dungeon and say that there is loot.
That means that they are evil monsters ready to be killed.

Using this method, I had two goodish parties collide with each other. Immediate assumptions were made, and the non-PC party was ruthlessly massacred and looted.

Kansaschaser
2011-02-09, 01:32 PM
In my campaign, I've done this a couple times.

1. While in a chaotic realm, all angels (Solars, Archons, etc) look like devils and deamons. All devils and deamons look like angels. The players were attacking the good guys and helping the bad guys without knowing what they were doing. Things got really bad once they made it to the "angels" base camp. Then they were surrounded by angels and the players could see the angels doing bad things, like torture, eating intelligent being, etc...

2. The players encountered a good Minoutar and a good Mind Flayer. The players attacked them right away and they kept begging to not be hurt. After the minoutar had been killed and the Mind Flayer had the snot beat out of him did the players finally stop.

Thrawn183
2011-02-09, 01:36 PM
I managed to pull one off quite nicely. I was running a sandbox-ish type campaign. The party was part of the adventuring guild and every guild would post missions that the party could choose amongst. Certain groups, like say the druids, didn't have this arrangement and to take missions for them, they first had to seek them out and make contact.

In this case, the party took on a mission from the wizard's guild in which strangely acting wild animals were attacking their logging operation (special trees required to make spell books, if the party didn't take the mission eventually there wouldn't be as many new wizards in the setting.) Their job was to stop whoever or whatever was responsible.

The party had never made contact with the druids because of prior roleplaying decisions and a general lack of effort in that area, so they didn't know that the druids were also seeking a group to lend assistance to a druid near the logging operation that was trying to figure out what was happening to the animals in the area.

After fighting through lots of wild animal attacks, the party makes contact with the druid and he accuses them of working with the people responsible for everything that was going wrong in the area. The party predictably interpreted that to mean the logging operation and that he was provoking the animals when he meant the magical effect that was driving everything bonkers.

Eventually, thinking the party is about to attack him (they were) the druid casts entangle to give himself a bit more time to negotiate and the party psion kills him with a single spell. The druid's animal companion, a camel, begins crying over his scorched corpse and the druid's pet triceratops, also crying, comes out of the underbrush and carried his corpse away.

The party quickly realized their error, and I got to enjoy guilting them about it.

Telonius
2011-02-09, 02:00 PM
Have them be connected to an borderline evil-ish church or organization. For example, running a Shackled City campaign right now, and the players cast a Legend Lore on the Church of Wee Jas (the actual building). Members of the Church are major antagonists to the players, but in years past the church was mainly a neutral party. In the adventure path setting, awhile back the Church was supposed to have stopped a major plague in the area, which significantly boosted its standing in the town. I played out the vision, having them see the High Priest raise his hands and the plague lift. The players immediately jumped to the conclusion that the High Priest had been the cause of the plague in the first place.

Sipex
2011-02-09, 02:07 PM
Make them jerks.

Also, I laughed at the Tim Curry comment.

navar100
2011-02-09, 05:27 PM
It's easy.

Have good guy NPCs whose goal is the opposite of the party's goal.

The party wants to stop/enable a prophecy. The good guys as bad guys want to enable/stop the prophecy.

The party needs to get an item for a particular reason. The good guys as bad guys also want the item for their particular reason.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-09, 05:49 PM
Check out the Standing Stone to see how WoTC does it.

Grelna the Blue
2011-02-09, 06:18 PM
Just make him sort of a jerk.

I've found that players tend to assume that a person's goodness and their niceness are directly relational. Have a character who is snide, makes fun of the players, and insinuates that various other people are less than noble. The players will be shocked to discover that he's not actually a total monster.

I call this the Snape effect.

+1.

I've had players associate on friendly terms with quite a few high Charisma bad guys, because those villains actually used their Charisma and didn't twirl their mustachios. But make an NPC ugly, scarred, and rough looking (you know, like many PCs) and/or rude, secretive, and/or abrasive (foreign accent optional) and many PCs will assume they know all they need to know.

Also, if an NPC has an Amulet of Proof vs. Detection and Location (valuable for anyone with spellcasting enemies) or uses the Nondetection spell (ditto), when the PCs notice their inability to discern magic and/or alignment they are quite likely to become paranoid.

VirOath
2011-02-09, 06:34 PM
I'm saying with buildup as well, but not in the way that is "No matter what you do, this will happen and this will be the outcome" because in all honesty, I hate having that happen in games I play in. Just last night I was with a group that got on of those "Here is a really epic fight that you really can't lose and all the cool/threatening stuff is going to be dealt with by NPCs much stronger than you."

But as a player, something I've noticed that many, many players do is ask Why when something happens, except when it conflicts with their assumptions. So lead them away. Have your evil looking good guys doing what looked like evil things.

Like sending out an army to completely wipe out villages just outside of their borders, or just inside. They leave up warnings to stay away and everything is burned to the ground, scorched to a crisp. Now why? Oh, just a world ending doom cult trying to raise an OLD ONE that infected and twisted every living thing there to their servitude to the point that even the rats and vermin fought back against the 'forces of good'

Put in things like this, bold and loud proclamations by the group as to "We are Responsible for this, this is a warning, stay away." and the party will start to ask Who, What, Where and How, but never Why. They will always assume the Why.

Ragitsu
2011-02-09, 06:49 PM
Just make him sort of a jerk.

I've found that players tend to assume that a person's goodness and their niceness are directly relational. Have a character who is snide, makes fun of the players, and insinuates that various other people are less than noble. The players will be shocked to discover that he's not actually a total monster.

I call this the Snape effect.

BINGO!

So simple, but VERY effective.

Paseo H
2011-02-09, 06:53 PM
On a personal note, about the Snape Effect, this is why I believe that good should always be nice, in contradiction to the "Good Is Not Nice" trope.

If only because a savvy manipulative bastard might take advantage of the Snape Effect and be nicer to the heroes than the good aligned jerk they're working with.

Aravir
2011-02-09, 07:14 PM
I once had an idea for a campaign. Have players enter a portal into a strange world of mostly undead creatures, cities filled with zombies and other nasties.

Portal actually took them to opposite side of world and altered their perception (Shared hallucination or psychotic break...epic level magic stuff). Let them fight against the evil for sometime, until they are healed. Then watch them struggle when a zealous group of good npcs hunt them down for all the mass killings/damage they had done.

FMArthur
2011-02-09, 07:20 PM
It's so ludicrously easy to make good NPCs look like bad guys and bad NPCs look like good guys if you just deviate from genre conventions even a little bit. Especially if you do it by accident.

Having genuinely good NPCs asking players to gather a full set of powerful artifacts for him to protect is as easy as it can possibly be for giving players the wrong idea. I once ran the same campaign, featuring this NPC, for two separate groups and both times the players immediately sided with megalomaniacal criminals to acquire the artifacts and keep them safe from their 100% legitimately Good employer. Shocking.

I've also seen some pretty incredible grudges kept against people who'd confused the party for evildoers and fought them in brief skirmishes. Which happens pretty often, what with players acting like players and all. So they still find ways to assassinate these people after finding out they're on the same side. I guess it's proportionate to how much of a pain in the ass they were to fight, since it's usually a wizard they begrudge. :smallconfused:

ffone
2011-02-09, 09:55 PM
This sometimes works unintentionally, and in reverse.

I had a town run by a council of noblemen who were all Lawful Neutral types that tended towards the side of good. I.E. Taxes weren't excessive, didn't start aggressive wars, etc. They were mercantile sorts who thought peace was more profitable than war, and they were right.

Unfortunately, the Players decided they must be incompetent, greedy, and evil. The campaign went so far off the rails that an NPC adventuring group led by a Paladin was hired to deal with them.

The PC's won when it came to a fight, but they felt so bad about killing the Paladin and friends that they finally got the hint.


Awesome.

I've noticed most DnDers are somewhat anti-religious and anti-capitalist or perhaps just generally anti-authority, so generally if you have NPCs who are highly successful merchants or religious leaders (of a more Lawful bent rather than a hedonistic bent) they'll assume they're bad, or at best troublesome / The Man.

Conversely, they tend to assume anyone who's initially a victim / need-to-be-rescued is probably okay (rather than being a scoundrel who just happened to get victimized by another scoundrel, or a con artist doing a setup) - unless she's a sensual female, in which case they'll assume she's a succubus or evil sorceress.

Paseo H
2011-02-09, 10:01 PM
Awesome.

I've noticed most DnDers are somewhat anti-religious and anti-capitalist or perhaps just generally anti-authority, so generally if you have NPCs who are highly successful merchants or religious leaders (of a more Lawful bent rather than a hedonistic bent) they'll assume they're bad, or at best troublesome / The Man.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I'm Chaotic.


Conversely, they tend to assume anyone who's initially a victim / need-to-be-rescued is probably okay (rather than being a scoundrel who just happened to get victimized by another scoundrel, or a con artist doing a setup) - unless she's a sensual female, in which case they'll assume she's a succubus or evil sorceress.

Yeah, that's another avenue of subverting the usual expectations...have the damsel you just rescued be an evil woman, and their 'attacker' her justified pursuers, or maybe a well meaning Inspector Javert.

Paseo H
2011-02-09, 10:56 PM
Actually, I think I can incorporate something like this into my game:

BLAZBLUE CONTINUUM SHIFT END SPOILERS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKEpWzw-bpw

In my game, the character I'm trolling the player with is a good guy who is trying to reform or at least restrain one of the major bad guys, but I can make it look like the good guy is the boss of the bad guy, in a way similar to just like what happened in that video.

ffone
2011-02-10, 04:47 AM
You say that like it's a bad thing.

I'm Chaotic.



That's a succinct way to make my point. In my experience >90% of DnD players self-identify as Chaotic (whether they realize it not) and it's deeply ingrained in our culture that heroes 'ought' to be rebels (various tvtropes entries on this - La Resistance / the Rebellion etc.) Therefore you can subvert expectations by not having Lawful-seeming NPCs by obstacles and fellow rebels be helpers. Until they learn you're like that, of course.

(My personal goal is not to subvert tropes for the sake of it - which gets tropey itself and is DM metagaming - but to play the world as I genuinely see its demographic patterns, and let players foul up some percentage of the time if they insist on projecting their own expectations for dramatic conventions onto it.)

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. What I do find it a bit awkward that everyone seems to insist on acting as if this makes them unique...when in fact most people are 'rebels' along very similar lines. As I think Dave Barry said, "There is no 'Them' out there...just an awful lot of 'us'."

In my experience PC alignment breakdown is maybe

50% CG (includes almost all PCs meant to be attractive or self-insertion)
20% NG
5% LG (usually just b/c of paladin)
10% CN (often comic relief or an excuse to do whatever)
10% N (usually a druid or someone afraid of mechanical alignment effects)
1% LN
1% LE
1% NE
2% CE

This is not in high-op groups. I suspect that in high-op groups Lawful is even rarer for martial types, simply b/c of Pouncebarian. And b/c neutral alignments have a slight mechanical advantage.

Paseo H
2011-02-10, 09:22 AM
To be fair, in my game I'm portraying an anarchist group fighting against a government of corrupt corporates as being quite uncivilized themselves, resorting to terrorism and whatnot while still thinking of themselves as Robin Hood types.

Telonius
2011-02-10, 10:19 AM
That's a succinct way to make my point. In my experience >90% of DnD players self-identify as Chaotic (whether they realize it not) and it's deeply ingrained in our culture that heroes 'ought' to be rebels (various tvtropes entries on this - La Resistance / the Rebellion etc.) Therefore you can subvert expectations by not having Lawful-seeming NPCs by obstacles and fellow rebels be helpers. Until they learn you're like that, of course.

(My personal goal is not to subvert tropes for the sake of it - which gets tropey itself and is DM metagaming - but to play the world as I genuinely see its demographic patterns, and let players foul up some percentage of the time if they insist on projecting their own expectations for dramatic conventions onto it.)

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. What I do find it a bit awkward that everyone seems to insist on acting as if this makes them unique...when in fact most people are 'rebels' along very similar lines. As I think Dave Barry said, "There is no 'Them' out there...just an awful lot of 'us'."

In my experience PC alignment breakdown is maybe

50% CG (includes almost all PCs meant to be attractive or self-insertion)
20% NG
5% LG (usually just b/c of paladin)
10% CN (often comic relief or an excuse to do whatever)
10% N (usually a druid or someone afraid of mechanical alignment effects)
1% LN
1% LE
1% NE
2% CE

This is not in high-op groups. I suspect that in high-op groups Lawful is even rarer for martial types, simply b/c of Pouncebarian. And b/c neutral alignments have a slight mechanical advantage.

I think it does vary by region a bit. I'm in Northern Virginia, and quite a lot of the geeks around here either work for the government, are current- or ex-military, or are military contractors. I'd say it's more of a 60/15/25 Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic split. It's actually gotten to the point that I've been able to flip it around and use a Robin-Hood-esque CN or CG character to arouse suspicion.

Paseo H
2011-02-10, 03:09 PM
Oho, I guess they're inclined to think "chaotic is evil?"

Dienekes
2011-02-10, 03:15 PM
The single easiest way I've pulled this off has been simple.

Have the NPC be in a position of some political power, adviser or something.
Have the NPC interact with the PCs in a slightly condescending or angry manner. It doesn't have to be much, just imagine what a real politician with the weight of the world on their shoulders would act after being disrupted by a bunch of glorified hobos. Or even better, be dismissive to a friend to the PCs.
Let slip that there is a villain in the government.

Every single one of my PCs is convinced that he is the Big Bad. It's actually amusing how fast they latched onto this idea even though he hasn't done or said anything remotely villainous.