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That One Guy
2011-02-09, 02:50 AM
So my local area is starved for GM's and a lot of people want me to run games for them, as I only enjoy GMing and have been told my games are excellent. Word got around I guess. My flgs has suggested that I start charging to GM games for people. Would you guys think this an absurd idea?

senrath
2011-02-09, 02:52 AM
Yes. I find the idea to be totally absurd.

That One Guy
2011-02-09, 02:56 AM
Well, in order to run three or four campaigns a week to my satisfaction that requires a lot of planning. I work nights and would need to take time off. When I say starved for GM's I mean, I'm literally the only dedicated one.

HunterOfJello
2011-02-09, 02:57 AM
Charging money sounds like a bad idea, but you can pull out the "DM doesn't have to pay as much for stuff" card. Since you're in demand, spend more time on the campaign than all the other people involved, and are forced to DM the game instead of play in it, you can negotiate to pay less for all the snacks and things that the group buys.

That One Guy
2011-02-09, 03:00 AM
See if these were my friends I would do that and not even entertain this idea, but my flgs has been pointing people in my direction that I have never met.

RTGoodman
2011-02-09, 03:04 AM
I've been away from these forums for about a year and a half, but I remember someone who was thinking about doing this before. Basically, one group of people were offended by the notion of someone charging players to run a game, and the other said, "Hey, you're doing a lot of work, so you might as well make some money for it."

Personally I don't think I would do it. I'm pretty much the only dedicated DM in my area also, but I run my one weekly game and that's it. Any more would cut into my work and school, and I think that's irresponsible. Your mileage may vary. I do get free snacks from the FLGS we play at, but that's because two of my players are the owner and another employee.

If I were you, I'd first tell the FLGS people you're busy and can't take on another game. Then, suggest that one of them or someone interested in the game picks up the Red Box and starts running a game.

Killer Angel
2011-02-09, 03:11 AM
I've been away from these forums for about a year and a half, but I remember someone who was thinking about doing this before. Basically, one group of people were offended by the notion of someone charging players to run a game, and the other said, "Hey, you're doing a lot of work, so you might as well make some money for it."


Yes, there was such a discussion.
I can see That One Guy's position, if this starts to be almost a real job.


Well, in order to run three or four campaigns a week to my satisfaction that requires a lot of planning.

To diminish the amount of work, you can run the same campaign for different groups. It's not a definitive solution, but it can help for the moment.

Mastikator
2011-02-09, 03:20 AM
Supply and demand dictates that in your case it might work.

However, it will fundamentally change the relationship between you and your players from a friend relationship to a business relationship. Also, the expectations of your performance will rise.

Also, I know it sounds counter intuitive, but if you DM for money then you don't DM for fun, I know it sounds like you should be able to do both, but in the end you can't since if you do it for monetary gain then it becomes a chore.

Basically you'd be selling out, which is fine imo, but frankly it's dumb unless you get a lot of money for it, which I suspect you don't.

It's not absurd, but it's not a good idea, I reckon.

LordBlades
2011-02-09, 03:20 AM
I don't think it's an absurd idea at all tbh.

I wouldn't do it because I only game with friends, and for us D&D is just a way to spend some time together. But from what I get the OP is in the situation to game with total strangers and so much that it becomes a drag on his income-generating activities.

So I'd say why not? People are paying for various forms of entertainment for ages, so why not for this? OP is providing them with a service, and if he feels he should be paid for it, I think he's right to ask for it. It's not like somebody will be forcing his players in any way in the end: if people feel his services are worth the cost, they will pay, if not, they won't.

Edit: also, Mastikator is right: the moment you start charging for DMing, people will start to feel entitled to a certain quality. Nobody should get upset if you have a bad day in a friendly game, but people wills tart to look at you funny if they paid for it and you failed to deliver on that day (due to RL issues, feeling sick, not in the mood etc.)

That One Guy
2011-02-09, 03:22 AM
I also am friends with the owner of the hobby shop, and they want me to run the games there to bring in people to the store. They already successfully run Magic tournaments every Friday, but now they want to branch out to other hobby games multiple days a week. I don't want to make a huge profit or anything, like 5 bucks a player or so (what they charge to enter Magic Tourneys). I figure it's cheaper than going to see a movie and you get to make friends. It would mostly appeal to people that want to play in person but don't know anyone who plays locally.
The reason this is so attractive is that I'm plagued by health problems and doing something like this would take considerable stress off me with my current job.

EDIT: Performance issues have occurred to me. I'm not terribly worried about it, I seriously love running games. Writing and Plotting and watching a story come together. Authoring a novel is a dream of mine, albeit a pipe dream.

Mastikator
2011-02-09, 03:28 AM
You can always try it, worse case scenario and you decide to quit (but not before pay time, amirite?), best case scenario and you make a few friends and a buck.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-09, 03:34 AM
Ask for donations? Just put a jar out and say that you can't continue doing it unless you get enough money (nevar specify the amount) and the jar will likely get 3-4 times as much money as you could possibly get out of them in a month of "pay" and they will be less resentful. It is a 1 time thing, but at least it would do something for your immediate financial situation.

That One Guy
2011-02-09, 03:35 AM
You can always try it, worse case scenario and you decide to quit (but not before pay time, amirite?), best case scenario and you make a few friends and a buck.

Yeah, you're right. That's the most pragmatic way of looking at it. Well, I guess I'll let you guys know if it works or not.

Lost Wanderer
2011-02-09, 03:36 AM
So the store owner is trying to use your games as an advertisement? Then the store should be paying you to host games there. They should probably pick up the cost of a meal while you're there too. Heck, if you do that, you might be legally in a position to demand an hourly wage, possibly including time spent prepping the adventures, painting minis, that kind of thing. Then you could write off all your game purchases as business expenses, too! You'd need to check your local laws on all that, though. Whether the store decides to charge players or not is up to them, but any business stuff should go through them, not you because they're the business in question.

Serpentine
2011-02-09, 04:30 AM
This has come up before, and I think many people are far too stubbornly against it.
I figure, if you're good enough to be worth paying for, and others are willing to pay, then great. DMing can be fun, it can be a favour you do for friends, or, I think, it can be a service. The main concern I'd have is that you'd have to be very, very careful to set out all rules and expectations in advance - probably in writing. The nature of the relationship, as others have pointed out, would be quite different: normally it's a bunch of friends playing together in different roles, but this will be them paying you for a specific service.
If you do it through your local gaming store, even better - you're really just an extra service of that shop, and can run disputes through it.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-09, 05:26 AM
See if these were my friends I would do that and not even entertain this idea, but my flgs has been pointing people in my direction that I have never met.
Well, that's distressing.

Personally, I've always felt DMing is an Honorable Profession - that is to say, one where explicit payment for services is an insult :smalltongue:

Then again, this implies that the DM only takes on Players and games as he desires - friends directing strangers to you for DMing is much like friends inviting hordes of people to your party without your permission.

If your buddy wants to make this a feature of his store, then you should work out an arrangement with him. I'd suggest prepping a one-shot and then have the owner sell off slots in the game for a given date. Split the proceeds as you desire and see what your response is. I imagine people will react better to "buying" a spot in a game if they do it through a store rather than through the DM.

Kaww
2011-02-09, 06:11 AM
I don't think it's an absurd idea at all tbh.

I wouldn't do it because I only game with friends, and for us D&D is just a way to spend some time together. But from what I get the OP is in the situation to game with total strangers and so much that it becomes a drag on his income-generating activities.

So I'd say why not? People are paying for various forms of entertainment for ages, so why not for this? OP is providing them with a service, and if he feels he should be paid for it, I think he's right to ask for it. It's not like somebody will be forcing his players in any way in the end: if people feel his services are worth the cost, they will pay, if not, they won't.



Ask for donations? Just put a jar out and say that you can't continue doing it unless you get enough money (nevar specify the amount) and the jar will likely get 3-4 times as much money as you could possibly get out of them in a month of "pay" and they will be less resentful. It is a 1 time thing, but at least it would do something for your immediate financial situation.

Tell them the truth - for you the session was a choice between it and a day at work. Say that if the people playing enjoyed it they should consider it a tip jar. This way if people keep coming back you won't have to repeat yourself, since both they and future players will know about the jar - thus lessening the inconvenience.

I don't feel comfortable asking my players to pay for a meal I bought and prepared (I charge ingredients only). But I have to do it - I don't have the cash to pay feeding six people often. They vote for a meal every time there is a choice. If what you are providing is worth the price they will pay for it and continue paying for it.


Well, that's distressing.

Personally, I've always felt DMing is an Honorable Profession - that is to say, one where explicit payment for services is an insult :smalltongue:

Then again, this implies that the DM only takes on Players and games as he desires - friends directing strangers to you for DMing is much like friends inviting hordes of people to your party without your permission.

If your buddy wants to make this a feature of his store, then you should work out an arrangement with him. I'd suggest prepping a one-shot and then have the owner sell off slots in the game for a given date. Split the proceeds as you desire and see what your response is. I imagine people will react better to "buying" a spot in a game if they do it through a store rather than through the DM.

I agree, the shop owner should pay you some sort of wage. You are also free to have the tip jar in this case too. The owner shouldn't mind it.

One more thing. You mentioned that you have health issues. No amount of money is worth you losing your health. Also this is just a game, again, not worth you endangering your health.

Best of luck, hope you reach a right decision.

Voidhawk
2011-02-09, 06:34 AM
I don't think you should charge for DMing, for the simple reason that it doesn't solve the problem you have right now, ie: lack of DMs.

If you take up a higher DMing load to keep up with demand (and start having to charge for it in response to the large ammount of time it's taking up), this won't encourage anyone else to DM, as you're available for their roleplaying needs.

In my opinion you should approach one or two people who are experienced players, tell them about this problem, and ask if they'd like to learn how to DM themselves. Teach them the tricks of the trade (how to plan a campaign, how to plan a session, how to make a balanced encounter, how to deal with disruptive players) and maybe sit in on their first session with them to provide guidance. After a while they'll take the strain off you by having several groups themselves.

Taking on a couple of apprentices will do far more to alleviate the problem in the long run than simply increasing your time spent, at a decrease to the fun had by all.

As a side note, I'm a member of my university gaming society, and we have a quite quick turn over of members (3-4 year uni courses), alongside a core of ex-uni regulars who still live in the city. This has lead to an interesting wave pattern, as supply and demand of DMs rises and falls.

Broadly speaking it has the form:
1. There are too many players for the DMs to have all of them in the number of games they want.
2. Many more experienced players decide to learn to DM, reducing the strain.
3. A year with a large number of players and few DMs leaves the society. A fresh year arrives.

4. There are now more DMs than players, with not enough people for all the campaigns.
5. Only a few experienced players become dedicated DMs.
6. A year with a large number of DMs and few players leaves the society. A fresh year arrives.
7. Go to 1.

Anyone else seen this happen where you are?

RTGoodman
2011-02-09, 10:56 AM
I also am friends with the owner of the hobby shop, and they want me to run the games there to bring in people to the store. They already successfully run Magic tournaments every Friday, but now they want to branch out to other hobby games multiple days a week. I don't want to make a huge profit or anything, like 5 bucks a player or so (what they charge to enter Magic Tourneys). I figure it's cheaper than going to see a movie and you get to make friends. It would mostly appeal to people that want to play in person but don't know anyone who plays locally.
The reason this is so attractive is that I'm plagued by health problems and doing something like this would take considerable stress off me with my current job.


Well, it seems to me if the store wants you to do it to bring in business, maybe THEY should be paying you.

Also, "appealing to people who want to play in person but don't know anyone who plays locally" is EXACTLY the point of D&D Encounters. Tell the store they ought to start getting that in and DM it whenever you can (Wednesday or Thursday are the normal days). It also saves you a TON of time and, at least for the couple of sessions I played a couple of seasons ago, the adventures are pretty fun.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 11:03 AM
Since the hobby shop wants you to game for them it would make more sense to get paid by them. They can then charge people admission to join your group since you're their employee and this is a service they're providing you. They wouldn't be handing money directly to you which would make the situation a little more comfortable.

valadil
2011-02-09, 11:08 AM
I've heard of other people trying it. It's not enough to make a living income. But if you're just looking to support the community, having some cash to reward your efforts and time is not a bad thing.


I also am friends with the owner of the hobby shop, and they want me to run the games there to bring in people to the store.

Ah. My suggestion is to make like the RPGA. My FLGS charges for RPGA games. I'm not sure if that's an RPGA policy or a game store one. Anyway, it costs $2 to play. The store keeps the cash, but the GM gets store credit. I think a model similar to that could work for you and the owner.

The difference though is that what I've seen is for pre-written LFR modules. Less homework on the GM's part, especially if they run the modules over and over. And those modules are all one shot games. A GM can show up irregularly. You'd be committing to what sounds like several weekly games. I'd charge something closer to $5 a head for 4 hour games.

Would you intend to recycle content between groups? I can't imagine GMing more than one game at a time if there wasn't a large amount of shared content.

Telonius
2011-02-09, 11:30 AM
Like others have said, this sort of question has come up before. The situation you're in is the only one I can see as being potentially profitable for everyone involved.

Most of the previous posters on the subject have approached it more like it were a full-time job as a freelancer - you basically make house calls and charge for the session. The biggest problems in making this profitable are the issues of transportation to/from the place, people not showing up to the game, competition (in the form of people giving away the same service for free), possibly the cost of renting out space if you're trying to do this in a central location where people come to you, and the amount of time it takes to prep for and run a session not being commensurate to the amount you're going to be paid.

If you're collaborating with the local gaming store, they get advertising, you get space to run the session, you get a wider distribution area than just your own social network, and the issue of people not showing up is minimized. You don't pay any overhead for the location. The time-to-pay ratio, depending on what the store pays you to be there, would also be significantly better, since the store will (they're hoping) get more profit from sales while people are there to play in your games.

Don't expect this to pay for your college education or anything, but I'd say go for it. A few bucks on the side never hurt, especially if you're doing something you like doing anyway.

Keld Denar
2011-02-09, 11:39 AM
When I lived in Bawston and played a lot of Living Greyhawk (RPGA), it wouldn't be terribly uncommon for a GM to charge $2 a person for a 4-hour time slot, primarily to cover module printing costs (some mods were like, 100 pages!!!!). I didn't really care, that was like, 1/3 of what I was paying in gas just to go to the event.

I did personally find that the people who were willing to pay a slight tithe to play in those games were the type of people I prefered to game with, though. They were the people who really wanted to be there, really wanted to take part in the module, and really wanted to RP, rather than just showing up looking for an adventure cert. YMMV.

Psyren
2011-02-09, 11:41 AM
To diminish the amount of work, you can run the same campaign for different groups. It's not a definitive solution, but it can help for the moment.

I actually think that's a bad idea. The campaigns may start the same, but the different groups will take it in wildly different directions (because that's just how players are.) Worse, because they are the same campaign he is at risk of making mistakes/confusing details further in, whereas with vastly different campaigns it'll be easy to remember, "okay, Group A killed the BBEG's right-hand henchman, but Group B is busy helping the elven settlement prepare for an orcish assault," etc.

Cyrion
2011-02-09, 12:02 PM
I'd fourth or fifth or whatever we're up to in the count of having the gaming store be the one to deal with the paying part. That will make it a little less personal when it comes to expectations of the players- quality of each session, "I paid for this, so my character should be/get...", etc.

I think that would also set the stage for the time when you're ready to move on or others want to start DMing, someone else can step into the same agreement with the store and there's a better sense of continuity since the players have always been paying the store.

vampire2948
2011-02-09, 12:11 PM
I remember a thread a while back, about someone who did this - successfully, and charged. iirc, he advertised through his local gaming shop.

I - personally - think it is a good idea if you can find the people willing to pay for it. People pay for entertainment in other forms, why not D&D?

Will try to find that thread for you.

Good luck,

Vampy,

Aharon
2011-02-09, 12:15 PM
I don't see any problem with that. If everybody's ok with it, let them pay you :smallsmile:

Caliphbubba
2011-02-09, 12:23 PM
I ran and charged a fee to play a V:TM LARP game for 5+ years when I was younger. The fee was expressly to cover the cost of renting a place to play that was big enough to handle that many players (between 20 and 50 depending).

That being said, I often ended up paying money out of pocket to cover the difference between what it cost to rent and the amount I took in.

When I happened to take in more than what I needed to cover site-rental costs, I treated my assistant Storytellers and myself to a meal after the game.


So in short: You can charge money and be successful at it for running a game, but I personally, would never do so unless there was overhead for running the game.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-09, 12:28 PM
So my local area is starved for GM's and a lot of people want me to run games for them, as I only enjoy GMing and have been told my games are excellent. Word got around I guess. My flgs has suggested that I start charging to GM games for people. Would you guys think this an absurd idea?

Go for it. I would pay to play in a top quality game, if it was the sort of game that interested me. And let us know how it works out.

I would definitely try to negotiate pay with the game shop first. Why? Because collecting a paycheck from one person is a lot less messy than collecting fees from a bunch of players. Plus, if the game shop sells slots, it takes the pressure off you for explaining the situation.

As for campaigns...you can reuse campaigns, sure...but in that case, I suggest a time lag to keep them separate, and be aware that info may trickle from one to another. Put some thought into how characters can be introduced midway through or removed, and make sure to put out very good pre-game descriptions of what kind of game you plan to do. A certain level of professionalism is expected when money is involved.

That One Guy
2011-02-09, 12:58 PM
Don't expect this to pay for your college education or anything, but I'd say go for it. A few bucks on the side never hurt, especially if you're doing something you like doing anyway.

Oh no, I'm under no illusions. I don't expect to make a killing and frankly I'd feel bad if I did. I would just like to get by on it, I mean currently I work a part-time job at a sub shop. They can't afford to give regular raises so I'm currently making peanuts. I figure doing this at least, I won't hate getting up in the morning and I can afford some basics, (i.e. car, gas, occasional dinner out with friends, etc.)



I did personally find that the people who were willing to pay a slight tithe to play in those games were the type of people I prefered to game with, though. They were the people who really wanted to be there, really wanted to take part in the module, and really wanted to RP, rather than just showing up looking for an adventure cert. YMMV.

This is true, I spoke to some of the interested parties and they seem very sold on the idea of having a dedicated weaver of stories instead of the usual "Whoever draws the short straw" also they appear to be far more interested in being a part of a grand storyline rather than the usual "KILL ORCS, GET LOOTS" deal that I've played so much in. Those sort of games are what killed playing for me and got me into GMing in the first place.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-09, 01:05 PM
Well, if people are willing to pay for your DM'ing, then sure, why not?

Do bear in mind that people tend to react very differently to things they've paid for. For example, given the same level of quality, a computer game that is freeware tends to get much better reviews than a computer game that costs money, even if it's only a little bit of money. This isn't exactly rational or fair, but it tends to happen a lot anyway.

That One Guy
2011-02-09, 01:16 PM
Go for it. I would pay to play in a top quality game, if it was the sort of game that interested me. And let us know how it works out.

-----------

A certain level of professionalism is expected when money is involved.

I will make sure to let you guys know how it goes.
Of course, I've been exclusively GMing for a little over three years now and I haven't had a campaign end prematurely yet. Separate games will probably be a must to avoid issues of people letting other people know what's up. I am thinking about doing a Superheroes vs. Supervillains thing, with two groups doing very different things and occasionally bringing them together for a good old fashioned superbrawl, but that's about it as far as connected settings go.



Do bear in mind that people tend to react very differently to things they've paid for. For example, given the same level of quality, a computer game that is freeware tends to get much better reviews than a computer game that costs money, even if it's only a little bit of money. This isn't exactly rational or fair, but it tends to happen a lot anyway.

True, I figure I won't charge for the first session, so they get a taste of my style and they can judge if it's worth it or not.

nedz
2011-02-09, 03:11 PM
+1 to the shop paying you.
-1 to the players doing the same.

Its the shop which is trying to cash in on your time. Business is business.

tenthousandways
2011-02-09, 05:25 PM
About 12 years ago, some friends of mine and I got together and charged for really big Live Action vampire games in some of the more densely populated parts of the east coast. We'd either book some hotel convention space, run out of a con, or finagle space in other ways. we charged $15-25 for a two night game, and got 100-300 players each time. We netted about $30k in 5 months before some White Wolf associated folks told us to knock it off, pay royalties, or face the law.

Long-story-short: It can be done. You can make money. Somebody will give you a hard time. Go with the tip jar, but call it a 'volunteer materials fund' and ask the proprietors to cut you in if their profits go up.