PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Help with build



true_shinken
2011-02-09, 07:28 AM
I've been invited for a 4e campaign. It's supposed to be a pirate game, but one of the other players told me this should not affect my expectations or builds - I don't know why he said that.
We are a group of five with all roles already covered (Paladin, Ranger, Wizard and Artificer) so I have a lot of room to do what I want, which makes me happy. I'm really bad about marrying fluff to crunch in 4e, so I came here for advice.
I have three character ideas:

An ex-knight. He was a jousting champion, an ascending noble... and then he screwed up. Slept with too much lords' wifes. He is now a sword for hire, mixing his knight training with streetsmarts. He is supposed to be charming and dangerous - the kind of boy parents don't want their girls to meet. I kind of wanted him to fight with a longsword in one hand and nothing in the other, but I think that is going to be hard. I also wanted to wear leather armor. I initially thought Rogue as a class, but it neglects the whole Knight thing (and I don't think you can sneak attack with a longsword). Is there anthing about jousting in 4e?
An elven Sorcerer that hates elves (well, Eladrin would probably work best) so he want to be a dragon. His home town was destroyed by goblinoids because they breed faster - they overcame the elves by numbers in less than a century. This guy thinks elves are stagnant, stupid - a race for the ancient times, old fools better off dead. "I'm sick of being an elf. I might as well be a dragon." This is an idea I got from a novel based on 3.5... I really don't think I can pull this out, what with elf/eladrin stat bonuses and draconic sorcerer requirements, but still.
A spellcaster lycanthrope. I have no idea how lycanthropy works in 4e, but my thoughts for this are pretty simple - she was a dedicated scholar, a bit power hungry even. The kind that laughs on non-casters as 'uneducated fools'. One night, searching for forgotten lore in a forest, she is attacked by a lycanthrope... and becomes one. I wanted to different 'focuses' for her - a blasty/leaderish persona for her scholar type and a melee grinder for the hybrid form.


Any help is greatly apreciated. I think I can get most books with the group, but the DM unfortunately has a ban on hybrids :smallfrown:

RebelRogue
2011-02-09, 07:39 AM
1. Swordmages benefit from having a free off-hand, but are decidedly magical. If you don't mind that, it might work. A brawler fighter might to do the trick too (I think, AFB), but I'm not sure how knightly that may be (a dirty fighting one...)

2. Well, elf or eladrin sorcerer seems the obvious way to go, butyou're right that the stats are sort of non-supportive. As an alternative, perhaps you can refluff a wizard or warlock somehow?

3. Shifters seem to fit the bill, mostly. They all have lycanthrope blood in their veins. Upplaying that should give you the appropriate feel. They're born like that, though, not inflicted with it. Works best for Wis-based casters.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-09, 08:10 AM
(1) There is nothing about jousting in 4E, although there is a little bit about mounted combat (which is not a particularly effective option, though). If you don't mind wielding a parrying dagger in your off-hand (which would be a logical choice IRL) then a two-blade ranger or tempest fighter would work. Both are mostly a str/dex build, and get some manner of defense bonus for not wearing heavy armor. Leather armor is only one point behind hide, that difference is not a big deal.

(2) the main question here is, what kind of sorcerer do you want? Blasting, debuffing, summoning, something else? And note that anything sorcerers do, wizards tend to do better, but that's a simple matter of switching your class. Dragon sorcerers predictably work best with dragonborn, but don't worry overly much about racial stat bonuses, they are overrated.

(3) lycanthropy in the way you descrbie it doesn't really exist in 4E. Overall your best bet here is to be a druid: they get blasty powers and can shift into a melee form.

true_shinken
2011-02-09, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the advice, folks. I greatly apreciate it.


1. Swordmages benefit from having a free off-hand, but are decidedly magical. If you don't mind that, it might work. A brawler fighter might to do the trick too (I think, AFB), but I'm not sure how knightly that may be (a dirty fighting one...)
Oh, I think Brawler fighter could be just what I wanted, specially with MC Rogue. Which book is it from?


2. Well, elf or eladrin sorcerer seems the obvious way to go, butyou're right that the stats are sort of non-supportive. As an alternative, perhaps you can refluff a wizard or warlock somehow?
It doesn't go so well with the dragon theme. There must be a 'becoming the dragon' paragon path for sorcerers, right?


3. Shifters seem to fit the bill, mostly. They all have lycanthrope blood in their veins. Upplaying that should give you the appropriate feel. They're born like that, though, not inflicted with it. Works best for Wis-based casters.
Yeah, I wanted an afflicted lycanthrope...


(1) There is nothing about jousting in 4E, although there is a little bit about mounted combat (which is not a particularly effective option, though). If you don't mind wielding a parrying dagger in your off-hand (which would be a logical choice IRL) then a two-blade ranger or tempest fighter would work. Both are mostly a str/dex build, and get some manner of defense bonus for not wearing heavy armor. Leather armor is only one point behind hide, that difference is not a big deal.
Do I need to invest much for mounted combat? Because I wouldn't mind spending a few resources to be good at it even if it doesn't come up that often he is supposed to be a jousting champion, after all. Two weapons sounds logical and fits the streetwise theme, but I really can't picture a knight doing this.


(2) the main question here is, what kind of sorcerer do you want? Blasting, debuffing, summoning, something else? And note that anything sorcerers do, wizards tend to do better, but that's a simple matter of switching your class. Dragon sorcerers predictably work best with dragonborn, but don't worry overly much about racial stat bonuses, they are overrated.
I wanted somewhat of a gish. Now that I think about, Swordmage with MC Sorcerer to get into the 'I'm a dragon' paragon path later might work better. I would even get good NADs, I believe - Strength/Intelligence/Charisma.


(3) lycanthropy in the way you descrbie it doesn't really exist in 4E. Overall your best bet here is to be a druid: they get blasty powers and can shift into a melee form.
Lycanthropy is not a disease in 4e? :smalleek: Eberron fluff is forever maimed.

Ceaon
2011-02-09, 08:22 AM
I like idea #1 best.
However, for idea #2, maybe a half-elf would work?

Blackfang108
2011-02-09, 08:25 AM
Oh, I think Brawler fighter could be just what I wanted, specially with MC Rogue. Which book is it from?


It doesn't go so well with the dragon theme. There must be a 'becoming the dragon' paragon path for sorcerers, right?


1.) MP2
2.) Actually, that's Sorceror-King Pact Warlock that has the 'Becoming the Dragon' Paragon Path, IIRC.

*Therion Fans, DYSWIDT?*

true_shinken
2011-02-09, 08:29 AM
2.) Actually, that's Sorceror-King Pact Warlock that has the 'Becoming the Dragon' Paragon Path, IIRC.

I'm confused. Is this is a Dark Sun thing?
Dark Sun is the only 4e setting where you can become a dragon?! Dark Sun?!!?!
This is... frustrating, at best. But maybe Sorcerer with MC Warlock for me, then.

Blackfang108
2011-02-09, 08:31 AM
I'm confused. Is this is a Dark Sun thing?
Dark Sun is the only 4e setting where you can become a dragon?! Dark Sun?!!?!
This is... frustrating, at best. But maybe Sorcerer with MC Warlock for me, then.

You can use the Sorceror-King pact outside of Dark Sun.

stupid time limits.

true_shinken
2011-02-09, 08:35 AM
You can use the Sorceror-King pact outside of Dark Sun.
It would make no sense fluffwise, but whatever, that wasn't my point. Dark Sun has always been the least flashy of all D&D settings.
Even then, I'm trying not to worry too much about this stuff. I could just take Warlock MC and refluff it for something else (because a Sorcerer-King pact outside of Dark Sun makes no. sense. at all). I won't be getting to paragon that soon anyway.

gourdcaptain
2011-02-09, 08:43 AM
Eladrin Dragon Sorcerer isn't.... terrible. The essentials updates switched them to +2 Int/+2 Cha or Dex, meaning you can have primary stat boosted.

There's some dragon article with an ED that turns you into a dragon - I can't remember it, because my DDI account is inactive and this computer doesn't have my Dragon magazine issues on it.

Also - you CAN sneak attack with a longsword - Versatile Duelist feat (just requires Rogue) lets you sneak attack with any one handed Heavy Blade, and I think it even gives proficiency with longswords, but I'm not sure (it's from one of the Martial Power books, methinks). There isn't really much I can think of for jousting in 4e.

true_shinken
2011-02-09, 08:46 AM
Eladrin Dragon Sorcerer isn't.... terrible. The essentials updates switched them to +2 Int/+2 Cha or Dex, meaning you can have primary stat boosted.
If only it was the other way around... +2 Dex/+2 Int or Cha... I'll see if I can get my DM to change it, thanks. Though I don't know if he has essentials.


There's some dragon article with an ED that turns you into a dragon - I can't remember it, because my DDI account is inactive and this computer doesn't have my Dragon magazine issues on it.
That's waaaaay too endgame for me. No way the campaign will last that long. But thanks nonetheless.


Also - you CAN sneak attack with a longsword - Versatile Duelist feat (just requires Rogue) lets you sneak attack with any one handed Heavy Blade, and I think it even gives proficiency with longswords, but I'm not sure (it's from one of the Martial Power books, methinks). There isn't really much I can think of for jousting in 4e.
Hm, depending on how much I need to invest for mounted combat, I might just take this feat. Thanks. Does it give any other benefit?

Kurald Galain
2011-02-09, 08:52 AM
It doesn't go so well with the dragon theme. There must be a 'becoming the dragon' paragon path for sorcerers, right?
There's an epic destiny that does that. I think you can turn into a dragon for one round per encounter, and at level 30 you can do it for one encounter per day, something like that. If you're starting at heroic tier, your best bet is probably to play a dragonborn, and say in your backstory that you used to be an elf.


Do I need to invest much for mounted combat?
One feat lets you use your mount's special abilities. Otherwise you don't need any investment to ride on a mount or attack from a mount, but you don't get any bonuses or new moves either.


Lycanthropy is not a disease in 4e? :smalleek: Eberron fluff is forever maimed.
It does exist as a disease, but its effects are pretty minor (i.e. it lets you make the occasional melee basic attacks against your allies).

WinWin
2011-02-09, 11:31 AM
1. Fighter. Brawler Style. The at will power Slash and Pummel allows an attack with a weapon and a follow up unarmed strike. There a plenty of methods of enhancing unarmed attacks. For this type of build you would probably want the Weaponmaster (?) Feat for the bonus to all melee attacks rather than focussing on a specific weapon.

Jousting is basically charge optimization while mounted. Take Mounted Combat and a few feats to optimize charging and you should be good to go. Depending on the length of the campaign it may be worth multiclassing as a Paladin in order to gain access to their shiny new mount options.

2. Eladrin. Draconic Sorcerer. No specific power needs to be taken except for the Epic Daily that turns you into a Dragon. Possibly multiclass to Wizard in order to gain access to the Archmage Destiny. Then turn into a Dragon every encounter.

3. No playable lycanthropes. Racial choices have all been watered down. Closest option is to play a Beast Form Shifter Druid and pretend it is a Werewolf. A dissaponting option. The Moonspeaker paragon path (Shifter) grants a few lycanthrope themed abilities, but that is it. Primal Avatar would probably work better. To be honest, I would go with number 1 or 2 rather than try and make this option work.

gourdcaptain
2011-02-09, 11:37 AM
If only it was the other way around... +2 Dex/+2 Int or Cha... I'll see if I can get my DM to change it, thanks. Though I don't know if he has essentials.

Hm, depending on how much I need to invest for mounted combat, I might just take this feat. Thanks. Does it give any other benefit?

Versatile Duelist just lets you use a one handed heavy blade with rogue powers and for sneak attack on said, and proficiency with one handed martial heavy blades. It doesn't work on MBA's, but you CAN by RAW hold a versatile weapon in both hands and still use it.

If you're playing Dragon Sorcerer you use Str as your secondary anyway. (Strong secondary too, you kinda need to invest in it semi-heavily.) Still, put the +2 into Dex and then raise it to at least a 13 so you qualify for Dual Implement Spellcasting feat.

Yeah, Mounted Combat is the only generic feat that is needed for full mount use. There's a few specific examples - Eberron has the Mark of Handling feat, which among other things, is Mounted Combat with some cool extras (increases to mount speed and defenses, bonuses to animal companions, and (very limited) ritual casting). Paladins/Cavaliers get the awesome Summon Celestial Steed power, upgrades to that, and the Paragon Holy Steed feat (+2 to defenses of mount, +Cha to mount damage). Plus, the summoned mount scales with your defenses and level. You could theoretically multiclass feat into Paladin, power swap feat for Summon Celestial Steed (LV 4 Paladin Utility, but a non Cavalier takes it in a LV 5+ utility spell slot, and work from there.)

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 11:51 AM
If you are trying to use sneak attack it is best to use the rapier rather than a longsword. Rapiers are now martial weapons in the update and the rapier has better feat support.

Brawler fighters are great weapon+fist/spiked gauntlet is a great combo. Another option is to go arena fighter. Arena fighter gets all improvised weapons as +2 prof 1d8 damage and that includes your fists. On top of that you treat all non-proficient weapons as improvised weapons (which may improve their stats). You also get a bonus to AC by tier in light armor. Lastly you get essentially two free exotic weapon prof with fringe benefits.

Jousting would just be mounted combat with spears I guess though light armor and no shields do not make for great jousting in general.

Eorran
2011-02-09, 12:47 PM
You can make mounted combat significantly better with a couple of items - there's a Hand slot item that grants extra damage when mounted (I think it's +2d6) and the Horned Helm adds 1d6 to your charge attacks.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 01:08 PM
I come to help with the lycanthropy dilemma, Mr. Green Lantern Avatar Man Who I See A Lot!

I played a Dwarf Battlerager Fighter once who caught it. Ended up going werebear. What I did was I multiclassed barbarian, and started heading towards the Bear Warrior Paragon Path. In the mean time, my 1/day rage feature from the MC gave me regen 2 in addition, as long as I didn't get hit with any silver. I also sorta went beserk, but the Swordmage was good at calming me down.

Now, this doesn't work for the caster, I know. So here's my idea. Play an Orbizard with High Wisdom. MC Druid. Go Weretiger or maybe Wolf. I'm sure you had a lycanthrope in mind. Head towards the Bloodmoon Stalker PP. True, it's not optimal, but it'll work. You'll need SOMETHING to make your MBA worth spending that action point in beast form though.

Use Wildshape for Fluff, and say you're a liabiltity to the party when you're in it. Your DM will probably go with it, provided he likes the creativity. Yes, heavily homebrewed, but plausible.

Tweak as necessary. DragonBane do good?

Suedars
2011-02-09, 01:16 PM
I'm confused. Is this is a Dark Sun thing?
Dark Sun is the only 4e setting where you can become a dragon?! Dark Sun?!!?!
This is... frustrating, at best. But maybe Sorcerer with MC Warlock for me, then.

The Dark Sun "Become a Dragon" thing is an Epic Destiny. Sorcerors get the Dragonsoul Apprentice (PHB2) and Draconic Guardian (Arcane Power) Paragon Paths. Neither physically transform you into a dragon (which is outside the scope of a Paragon Path and more in-line with an Epic Destiny), but both have you taking on Draconic aspects.

KingFlameHawk
2011-02-10, 02:38 AM
The Dark Sun "Become a Dragon" thing is an Epic Destiny. Sorcerors get the Dragonsoul Apprentice (PHB2) and Draconic Guardian (Arcane Power) Paragon Paths. Neither physically transform you into a dragon (which is outside the scope of a Paragon Path and more in-line with an Epic Destiny), but both have you taking on Draconic aspects.

Suedars has got it right. Without an epic destiny these two paragon paths are as close as you are getting. By taking one your character is effectively saying that they may not physically be a dragon but that they are one in spirit.

Also an Eladin can make a very good dragon sorcerer just make INT 8 give +2 to CHA and make CHA, STR, high and the rest how ever you want.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-10, 04:30 AM
You could go with shifter and instead of flavoring it as being a full moon, say that when you get smacked around too much your werewolf side takes over to protect the host body.

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 08:31 AM
Also an Eladin can make a very good dragon sorcerer just make INT 8 give +2 to CHA and make CHA, STR, high and the rest how ever you want.
This is looking good.
I'm now torn between eladrin draconic sorcerer and human brawler fighter. Eladrin looks like more of a challenge, specially in RP. This guy would feel alien to most people. We're starting at level 6 - can I have a reasonable draconic sorcerer gish at this level? Also, is there anyway to use a spear as an implement?

I'm just sad about the third option, I'll simply have to drop it. It seems it can't be done with 4e at all.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 08:52 AM
I'm now torn between eladrin draconic sorcerer and human brawler fighter.
Neither is a gish, though. If you want a gish, I'd suggest swordmage. If you want a fighter, consider looking into the gladiator build from Dark Sun (or simply go Tempest Fighter using your fists); I'm not overly impressed by the brawler build.

You can use a spear as an implement by taking the Arcane Implement Proficiency (Spear) feat. There's also an actual implement spear, but it only works on primal powers. An easier way of doing it is by using a Staff implement and attaching a sharp point to the end.

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 09:11 AM
Neither is a gish, though. If you want a gish, I'd suggest swordmage. If you want a fighter, consider looking into the gladiator build from Dark Sun (or simply go Tempest Fighter using your fists); I'm not overly impressed by the brawler build.
The DM told me a draconic sorcerer is viable as a gish. He didn't tell me how, but he could be wrong anyway.


You can use a spear as an implement by taking the Arcane Implement Proficiency (Spear) feat.
Damn. If only I could get it with that eladrin feat... This sorcerer build is really feat starved.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 09:19 AM
The DM told me a draconic sorcerer is viable as a gish. He didn't tell me how, but he could be wrong anyway.

What do you mean by "gish", anyway? Do you want to be able to make melee attacks? Have good AC so you can survive standing in melee? Switch between two different modes/styles of physical and magical combat? Something else?

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 09:45 AM
What do you mean by "gish", anyway? Do you want to be able to make melee attacks? Have good AC so you can survive standing in melee? Switch between two different modes/styles of physical and magical combat? Something else?

Basically that. You don't get buffs in 4e, right?

WinWin
2011-02-10, 09:48 AM
By Gish I assume you want a character in front line melee.

Keep in mind that 4e works better when everyone is melee or everyone is ranged. Mixing leads to complications such as allies getting in the way of each others attacks and a disproportionate amount of hate getting dumped on the front line. You have an Artificer, so Healing Surges can be traded easily. This becomes important as front line strikers have less healing surges and hp than defenders, so they go through those resources faster.

Using a spear as an implement is possible via Hybrid, but is otherwise more of a Primal implement from what I have seen. Sorcerers are mainly light blades and staves. A knife fighting gish would probably take Ensorcelled Blade as one of their at wills as it counts as a melee basic attack. Then either a close blast like Burning Spray or a ranged burst like Blazing Starfall. Encounter and Daily powers would be better off being multitarget close powers, though ranged bursts are also good. Primarily this is because of the Sorcerer damage bonus.

Decent utility powers include Dragonflame Mantle and Sudden Scales. Both are thematic encounter powers that buff defences. Decent Feats include Mastery of Knives for the ability to treat Kukri and Katar as daggers, Dual implement mastery and then 2 weapon fighting feats. YMMV. You may also want to set a feat aside for implement expertise.

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 10:29 AM
By Gish I assume you want a character in front line melee.
That's correct, yes.


Keep in mind that 4e works better when everyone is melee or everyone is ranged. Mixing leads to complications such as allies getting in the way of each others attacks and a disproportionate amount of hate getting dumped on the front line.
But that is booooring!


You have an Artificer, so Healing Surges can be traded easily. This becomes important as front line strikers have less healing surges and hp than defenders, so they go through those resources faster.
Hm, so I should be safe in the frontlines, then?
I heard Paladins are not that good at defending, so I was a bit worried about this. I don't think any of my possible builds will end up with good defenses.


Using a spear as an implement is possible via Hybrid, but is otherwise more of a Primal implement from what I have seen. Sorcerers are mainly light blades and staves. A knife fighting gish would probably take Ensorcelled Blade as one of their at wills as it counts as a melee basic attack. Then either a close blast like Burning Spray or a ranged burst like Blazing Starfall. Encounter and Daily powers would be better off being multitarget close powers, though ranged bursts are also good. Primarily this is because of the Sorcerer damage bonus.
I want to focus on close blasts (is that the name? like Burning Hands in 3.5), with a few long range powers, but my meat-and-potatoes should be hitting stuff pretty hard with a spear.
...though I just noticed my basic attacks with a spear gain no benefit from Sorcerer's main class feature. Damn. Warlocks at least get Eldritch Strike.


Decent utility powers include Dragonflame Mantle and Sudden Scales. Both are thematic encounter powers that buff defences. Decent Feats include Mastery of Knives for the ability to treat Kukri and Katar as daggers, Dual implement mastery and then 2 weapon fighting feats. YMMV. You may also want to set a feat aside for implement expertise.
Dragonflame Mantle and Sudden Scales, I'll be sure to check that. Thanks a lot!

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 10:34 AM
Basically that. You don't get buffs in 4e, right?
No, not really.

Okay, the thing is, the sorcerer is fundamentally not a gish, but a ranged blaster. Sure, you can survive in melee - everybody can survive in melee. You can make melee attacks but in practice you never do, because your at-wills are much better. And there are a few classes that can switch between magical and physical attacks, but the sorcerer isn't one of them.

If you want a gish, try swordmage, or paladin, or 4.4 warlock, or possibly druid.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 10:40 AM
Keep in mind that 4e works better when everyone is melee or everyone is ranged.
Excuse me, but huh?

In my experience parties work just fine with a few frontliners and a few artillery characters. Getting in each other's way is nothing that decent tactics can't deal with; also, melee characters give neither cover nor penalties to their allies.

I'm not sure why you'd want any two-weapon fighting feats either, they're pretty bad feats overall. Most people (other than rangers and tempest fighters) just hold whatever weapon in their off-hand and call it a day.


I heard Paladins are not that good at defending, so I was a bit worried about this.
Depends on the books available. PHB-only paladins are not very sticky, no; they're basically a leader/striker instead. That's not necessarily a problem, though, because even a "squishy wizard" can survive at the frontlines just fine.



I want to focus on close blasts (is that the name? like Burning Hands in 3.5), with a few long range powers, but my meat-and-potatoes should be hitting stuff pretty hard with a spear.
Yes, that's the name. This combination just screams "swordmage", though. It's one of the few classes with a lot of both weapon attacks and close blasts. Or just play a warlock and call yourself "sorcerer". Don't get hung up too much on class names.

Reverent-One
2011-02-10, 10:40 AM
Hm, so I should be safe in the frontlines, then?
I heard Paladins are not that good at defending, so I was a bit worried about this. I don't think any of my possible builds will end up with good defenses.


FYI, Paladin's are fine at defending, even with just the PHB I, though they got even better with Divine power. I remember Yakk putting up a long post a while ago showing this.

Vknight
2011-02-10, 10:51 AM
For the Knight side Paladin's are fun to play with.

As for the Sorcerer do what others have saide just play something like a swordsage or warlock and call yourself a sorcerer. You could say that your abilities are natural. Meaning the blades magics are in your blood and your pact is a deal your family made along ago manifesting

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 11:18 AM
As for the Sorcerer do what others have saide just play something like a swordsage or warlock and call yourself a sorcerer. You could say that your abilities are natural. Meaning the blades magics are in your blood and your pact is a deal your family made along ago manifesting
Swordsage and Warlock are not draconic, that's my problem.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 11:23 AM
Swordsage and Warlock are not draconic, that's my problem.

They are if you say they are. The "draconic" sorcerer isn't particularly draconic either, except for having that word in its build name.

Vknight
2011-02-10, 11:25 AM
You can multi class sorcerer.
Also you can say your powers have a draconic feel.
Your curse can manifest as a shadow of a dragon that strikes the person.
Your other things could have that feel.

Swordsage can have his abilities ahve that similar feel the crack of thunder from Booming Blade being the roar of a dragon. The magic covering the blade taking the form of a dragon when you lash out with it.

WinWin
2011-02-10, 11:30 AM
Excuse me, but huh?

In my experience parties work just fine with a few frontliners and a few artillery characters. Getting in each other's way is nothing that decent tactics can't deal with; also, melee characters give neither cover nor penalties to their allies.



Your allies will not be happy when they are hit by your blasts or bursts, alternatively you won't be happy not using your powers because you don't want to hit your allies. Even worse is when people drop effects that do not synergise. Prone is great for melee, bad for ranged. Slow is great for Ranged, no real benefit in melee. In a new group, with people uncertain of their powers and abilities, this can be an issue.

From an optimization perspective, one less person on the front line means that monster attacks/damage is disproportionately traded out to the tanks. Adding a someone to the front line means there will be a fairly even distribution of attacks coming their way. A striker with lower AC, hp and surge values, goes through healing resources faster than a tank does. The adventuring day typically ends when one character runs out of surges. As I stated, the group has an artificer, so this is less of a problem.



I'm not sure why you'd want any two-weapon fighting feats either, they're pretty bad feats overall. Most people (other than rangers and tempest fighters) just hold whatever weapon in their off-hand and call it a day.

Untyped bonus to damage? Shield bonus while wielding a second implement? Bonus to opportunity attacks with your melee basic power? Not exactly high optimization, but not bad choices for a front line character. It is a moot issue as TS wants to wield a spear. Warlock would be a better choice for that by the way.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 11:51 AM
Your allies will not be happy when they are hit by your blasts or bursts,
That's a matter of aiming well. People should learn to play their character well; that doesn't mean a group should be exclusively melee or exclusively ranged.



From an optimization perspective, one less person on the front line means that monster attacks/damage is disproportionately traded out to the tanks.
Taking monster attacks and damage is the whole point of having a tank.


Untyped bonus to damage? Shield bonus while wielding a second implement? Bonus to opportunity attacks with your melee basic power?
Yes. All of those are pretty bad feats, by which I mean that you can get a better bonus by spending a different feat. +1 to damage rolls is not worth spending a feat on.

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 11:55 AM
A party without a frontline tends to be very problematic and defenders by their very nature are going to be frontline types. Unless you think only all frontline parties are viable, you're going to have a mixed party sometime and they will have to figure out how to cope and most parties do.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-10, 12:10 PM
Sorcerers can be semi-frontline in that they have lots of Close Blast powers, but none of them are really melee attacks. There is the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat in PHB2 that lets you make a Ranged attack instead as a Melee attack, but it only works with daggers. As mentioned, you could simply take Arcane Implement Proficiency (Spear) and you are now wielding a spear for all of your powers, plus you have ok to good Strength for making MBAs if you really want to.

It sounds like what you really need to do is find a class that fits mechanically with what you want and refluff it. You could stick with Sorcerer and fluff yoru close blasts as "Dragon McSorc swings his mighty spear and flames erupt, bathing all before him in its cleansing might" or "He roars and spews his mighty dragon breath on his foes once again." Even though only Dragonborn get a power named such, and it's an Encounter power, nothing stops you from saying your Sorcerer close blast powers come from your mouth.

You could go with a Swordmage and fluff his powers as "Dragon McSwordmage is so connected with his dragon ancestors that he prevents damage to his allies (Shielding build) using his connection to the dragons' toughness. Then his connection to his dragon ancestors once again manifests as he causes his blade to become bathed in fire before he swings."

WinWin
2011-02-10, 12:20 PM
A party without a frontline tends to be very problematic and defenders by their very nature are going to be frontline types. Unless you think only all frontline parties are viable, you're going to have a mixed party sometime and they will have to figure out how to cope and most parties do.

I can recall a Delve where the only group to successfuly to complete the adventure in the allotted time was a group of elf archer rangers. That is party synergy, which is what I was referring to. All melee or all ranged groups work better together by virtue of synergy. It's synergistic.



That's a matter of aiming well. People should learn to play their character well; that doesn't mean a group should be exclusively melee or exclusively ranged.

Aiming well? Can I get a page reference on that please. I'll tell the stupid Paladin player that keeps running his character into the middle of my Invokers AoE's to read it.



Taking monster attacks and damage is the whole point of having a tank.

Monsters rarely line up and fight the tank in an orderly fashion. In my experience, they tend to attack characters that pose threats. A striker on the front line is a valid target...And a drain on the parties healing resources. The tank is less of a drain on those resources by virtue of higher defences and hp.



Yes. All of those are pretty bad feats, by which I mean that you can get a better bonus by spending a different feat. +1 to damage rolls is not worth spending a feat on.

I'll pass that on to the player of the drow 'knife fighter'. He's a heal leech, but the damage he dishes out is well worth it.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 12:29 PM
I can recall a Delve where the only group to successfuly to complete the adventure in the allotted time was a group of elf archer rangers.
Yes. That's not synergy, that's a massive nova with the most damaging class in the game.


I'll tell the stupid Paladin player that keeps running his character into the middle of my Invokers AoE's to read it.
Almost all invoker powers target all enemies in burst.


In my experience, they tend to attack characters that pose threats. A striker on the front line is a valid target...
And this is why all good tanks can mark.


I'll pass that on to the player of the drow 'knife fighter'. He's a heal leech, but the damage he dishes out is well worth it.
That's exactly my point, if he were using better feats (or e.g. Iron Armbands, or a better weapon than a knife) the damage he dishes out would be good or excellent, not merely "well worth it".

Sipex
2011-02-10, 12:37 PM
I never thought I'd see a debate on 4e tactics.

Our current party make up is a cleric, wizard, warlock, rogue and fighter and we get along just fine (especially with the wizard who has bursts to think about). You just have to know how to work together in order to allow everyone to shine without blocking out others.

Mainly the tactics tend to be Fighter and Rogue attack the closest monster to the group while leaving as much space as possible from the others. Wizard launches attacks to damage/block off/disable other monsters. Warlock and Cleric fire into melee while standing near the Wizard with the Cleric providing a secondary tank role if something breaks through to the squishies.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 01:01 PM
A couple things.

1. Whoever is saying that you should only have as few frontline party members is wrong. A smart Wizard or Sorcerer carefully places his bursts and blasts to avoid hitting party members, and it's mitigated by feats like War Wizardry at Paragon. Moreover, melee leaders like Runepriests, Warpriests, Battle Clerics and Warlords depend on having melee buddies so they have people to buff (as well as, you know, flank with).

2. Buffs absolutely exist in 4e, but their durations are much shorter; they either last for a single round of combat, or they last until combat is over. "You have +2 Strength for X rounds, and I can do this three times today" doesn't exist, but "You have a +3 bonus to attack rolls against this guy this turn" or "I have a +4 bonus to damage rolls until the end of the encounter" do in spades. Buffs also generally give flat bonuses to rolls rather than enhance physical ability scores, if only because that makes bookkeeping much, much easier.

3. Lycanthropy is a hereditary condition in 4e, not a communicable disease. You can't play a werewolf for the same reason you can't play a lamia; they're supposed to be antagonists, and the rules for antagonists are not the same as the rules for player characters. It's also worth noting that werewolf bites give people a disease called Moon Frenzy, which makes the infected slowly go insane and start attacking their friends and loved ones.

4. Gish characters work absolutely fine in 4e, and I'm not really sure why anyone would say otherwise. Implement Avengers, Warclub Shamans, Hexblades, Melee Warlocks, Blade Channeling Sorcerers, Battle Clerics, Druids of any stripe, and Valor Bards all do just fine mixing melee and ranged attacks on a round-by-round basis.

5. There are any number of options for a Draconic Sorcerer, but physically turning into a dragon is not going to come until high Epic tier. A Lawful Good Eladrin Sorcerer that worships Bahamut could go either Dragonsoul Heir (Player's Handbook 2) or Dragon Guardian (Arcane Power) at Paragon, then take Bahamut's Vessel (Dragon Magazine 378) as his Epic Destiny. This would allow you to turn into a Dragon 1/day (by casting Wyrm Form) as well as immediately transforming you into a large Platinum dragon every time you die.

6. Fluff and crunch are utterly divorced in 4e. For example, in 3e a Wizard's spells came from his spellbook, but in 4e, while the Wizard has a spellbook class feature, there's nothing that says his spells can't come from, say, a pact with a mighty dragon, or from meditation, or from stargazing. A swordmage isn't draconic in flavor unless you say it is.

7. Frontline strikers have utility powers that either help them escape from the front lines when things get tough or reduce the damage coming their way. Being a striker isn't just about being able to do a ton of damage, it's about being able to get in, do your stuff, and get out before the pressure is on you.

WinWin
2011-02-10, 01:07 PM
Yes. That's not synergy, that's a massive nova with the most damaging class in the game.

So you agree that synergy is good. A fast, fluid game is enjoyable for everyone.


Almost all invoker powers target all enemies in burst.

Except for the powers that target everything in the burst. Or Blast.


And this is why all good tanks can mark.

Marking mechaniics...Don't stop attacks. They penalize them. They also have engagement clauses or require actions to put in place. A defender is not omnipresent, nor are monsters required to focus on them. A good tank can do more than just mark. Regardless, they have limitations on how much protection they can offer other characters on the front line. A striker on the front line should expect to get hit. Often.


That's exactly my point, if he were using better feats (or e.g. Iron Armbands, or a better weapon than a knife) the damage he dishes out would be good or excellent, not merely "well worth it".

Really? You're critiquing a character you have not seen in play?

This discussion has moved beyond the original scope of the thread. I have nothing further to add.

Sipex
2011-02-10, 01:14 PM
So you agree that synergy is good. A fast, fluid game is enjoyable for everyone.

Not to run too far off track here, but only Striker synergy would produce these results and this is only considered good if you consider the length of battle to be the only yardstick to measure team effectiveness by.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 01:18 PM
Not to run too far off track here, but only Striker synergy would produce these results and this is only considered good if you consider the length of battle to be the only yardstick to measure team effectiveness by.
Exactly. The goal of the game is to have fun, not kill things everything the most quickly. Going into 4e with a party of all Archer Rangers is the equivalent of going into 3.5 with a party of Druids and DMM Clerics.

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 01:52 PM
6. Fluff and crunch are utterly divorced in 4e. For example, in 3e a Wizard's spells came from his spellbook, but in 4e, while the Wizard has a spellbook class feature, there's nothing that says his spells can't come from, say, a pact with a mighty dragon, or from meditation, or from stargazing. A swordmage isn't draconic in flavor unless you say it is.
I hate that. I absolutely hate that.
I'm fine with a little refluffing, but ignoring everything the book says about a class just because I want so really ruins it for me. The fact that NPCs don't have class levels is bad enough, but I at least don't have to deal with it everytime I look at my character sheet.
This is way I came up with 3 different concepts, really. I just want to play something that I like and that 4e accepts, but for me fluff and crunch go together.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 02:21 PM
I hate that. I absolutely hate that.
I'm fine with a little refluffing, but ignoring everything the book says about a class just because I want so really ruins it for me.
Okay, so take a dragon sorcerer, spend a feat on a spear implement, and don't worry too much about exactly how many melee attacks you're going to be making. For extra bonus, grab a flask of dragon breath which is a wondrous item that gives you a breath weapon.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 02:29 PM
What feat lets him use spears as implements?

Also, I'd just stick with daggers, as Sorcerous Blade Channeling lets you use your ranged attacks as melee attacks with daggers. Plus you can dual-wield them if you go for Dual Implement Spellcasting (which you should, because it's really good and you'll probably qualify).

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-10, 02:33 PM
Your best bet might be some sort of Fighter then. Your fluff is... you're really good at fighting! They're usually considered the most damaging of the defenders, so you can be kinda half defender/half striker if you want, or all defender with a sword and board, or defender/controller with a polearm and the various feats that go along with it.

Alternately, go with your Dragon Sorcerer, stick to the previously mentioned Dragony PPs and ED, pick lots of Dragon Breath/ Dragon Scales/ Dragon Flight type powers, and use your spear for MBAs every now and then with your decent Strength. Those are as close as you're going to get to the fluff and crunch you want.

You may have already decided you didn't want this, but a Druid has the "I blast at things, but I can also change into an animal" thing going on. You could be any race and flavor your Wild Shape as Lycanthropy. Yes it's refluffing which you don't like, but it's only refluffing one ability, not everything about a class or whatever.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 02:36 PM
What feat lets him use spears as implements?
Arcane Implement Proficiency (spear).

You are correct that daggers are better for a sorcerer, but he wants to use a spear, so why not? Staffs are even better than daggers though (and can also be dual-wielded and used from melee range). I wouldn't recommend Dual Implement until paragon levels, though. At lower levels it's about the same as Implement Focus, and IF is rather lacklustre.

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 02:38 PM
A fighter|sorcerer hybrid is doable. Take hybrid talent - spell source (dragon) and take arcane implement proficiency (heavy blade). Just remember you're not a real defender but a striker who can mark from time to time.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 02:41 PM
Spear is not a choice for arcane implement proficiency since no arcane class has spears as an implement.

Also mixed groups are better. If you are all melee then you get killed by any enemies that force you to be in range. All ranged can be brought down by being forced into melee. All of one type can be very effective but you have a glaring weakness as well. Balanced groups will not have the glaring weakness but they will not have the suprme superiority in one field like the devoted group.

I also disagree about brawlers, they are a great controlling defender. Also note that unlike the grab action there are no restriction on most of the grabbing powers from the fighter class.

Draconic sorcs are gret in close range. There is even a melee minor action power though it might require a dagger. Dragon sorcs can get great defenses.

Oddly the essentials sentinel druid does have all day buff utilities. Fox's cunning and eagles splendor actually give all day attack roll buffs for cha and int based attacks.

There is a vampire class coming in heroes of shadow and there was talk of a werewolf class in ravenloft but that was pushed back so we do not know when it will come out. Until then picking a shifter would have to do (or changeling and you say you only have two forms hybrid animal and then animal).

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 02:41 PM
Arcane Implement Proficiency (spear).


Spear is not a valid option for AIP since no arcane class naturally uses spear as an implement.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 02:44 PM
He could take Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades) and then wield a glaive. That would work.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 02:48 PM
He could take Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades) and then wield a glaive. That would work.

That is true. Too bad the stats would not work out for some wisdom since you could probably find some polearm feats to add on to the sorc powers.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 03:10 PM
Spear is not a valid option for AIP since no arcane class naturally uses spear as an implement.
Hm, good point. Still, since he'd be spending a feat on a kind of implement that's actually worse than the implements he can already use, it would be reasonable for the DM to allow this if asked.

Personally I'd allow him to wield a staff and sharpen one end to a point.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 03:13 PM
Hm, good point. Still, since he'd be spending a feat on a kind of implement that's actually worse than the implements he can already use, it would be reasonable for the DM to allow this if asked.

Personally I'd allow him to wield a staff and sharpen one end to a point.

Oddly on the basic stat level they are both +2 prof d8 weapons so yea why not? Just as long as you do not try to use spear related feats with it.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-10, 03:31 PM
Could take the vestigial warlock pact and say you made a pact with some sort of old dragon god. Or hell, star pact and say you made it with some cthulu dragon god.

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 03:34 PM
Well, he's an eladrin which has eladrin soldier so spears may work out very well for him.

Another option may be to multiclass shaman and then use something like an alfsair spear. Don't know for sure if this works with the new rules for implements.

kyoryu
2011-02-10, 03:38 PM
I want to focus on close blasts (is that the name? like Burning Hands in 3.5), with a few long range powers, but my meat-and-potatoes should be hitting stuff pretty hard with a spear.
...though I just noticed my basic attacks with a spear gain no benefit from Sorcerer's main class feature. Damn. Warlocks at least get Eldritch Strike.

"My meat and potatoes is <x>, but I also do some <y>".

That screams multiclass to me.

Fighter with multiclass sorceror?

Suedars
2011-02-10, 03:52 PM
"My meat and potatoes is <x>, but I also do some <y>".

That screams multiclass to me.

Fighter with multiclass sorceror?

Or go Swordmage using a Glaive (that's the Heavy Blade Reach weapon, right?).

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 03:56 PM
What feat lets him use spears as implements?

Also, I'd just stick with daggers, as Sorcerous Blade Channeling lets you use your ranged attacks as melee attacks with daggers. Plus you can dual-wield them if you go for Dual Implement Spellcasting (which you should, because it's really good and you'll probably qualify).

That might be optimal, but it's also not what I want.



"My meat and potatoes is <x>, but I also do some <y>".

That screams multiclass to me.

Fighter with multiclass sorceror?
If I had more feats, perhaps... I dunno. This whole concept looks like too much work. I can't get the spear, I can't be as draconic as I want... I'll just go with the Human Brawler MC Rogue. Can I take TWF? I mean, does unarmed strike count as a weapon? I really want to have a free hand to pull stunts with.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 03:57 PM
Oddly iron soul monks would fit this well.

They make lots of blasts and burst attacks and stab people with a spear often at the same time. Call him the dragon style monk. This character wants to avoid elves by leaving their annoyingly chaotic society for the monastic order devoted to dragons (or whatever).

You would need melee weapon training in dex in order to make decent basic attacks but the rest should be easy.

Sipex
2011-02-10, 03:57 PM
Free hand does not count as TWF.

That said, it takes a minor action to sheath a weapon or a free action to drop it. As a Human Brawler MC Rogue you won't be using your minor actions too often so you should be fine.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 04:01 PM
That might be optimal, but it's also not what I want.



If I had more feats, perhaps... I dunno. This whole concept looks like too much work. I can't get the spear, I can't be as draconic as I want... I'll just go with the Human Brawler MC Rogue. Can I take TWF? I mean, does unarmed strike count as a weapon? I really want to have a free hand to pull stunts with.

Sorry I do not know how to quote in a post in an edited post.

Unarmed attacks do count as a weapon (an improvised weapon) though on a brawler it is probably better to go with the spiked gauntlet (or its variants). If you are using the character builder it does not recognize unarmed strikes as a weapon (or I should say it only shows it when you have no weapons at all equipped and it will not allow you to equip unarmed attack for some stupid reason) but that is a bug. My favorite brawler dual wields spiked gauntlets it is vicious especially if you can get that sash that grapples a third target for you. Just be sure to boost your fort defense as much as you can (for a brawler it can never be too high) and get inescapable hold to make all enemies try to escape against your fort defense.

true_shinken
2011-02-10, 04:07 PM
Oddly iron soul monks would fit this well.

They make lots of blasts and burst attacks and stab people with a spear often at the same time. Call him the dragon style monk. This character wants to avoid elves by leaving their annoyingly chaotic society for the monastic order devoted to dragons (or whatever).

You would need melee weapon training in dex in order to make decent basic attacks but the rest should be easy.

That is an interesting, but that's also not the character I want to play.




Unarmed attacks do count as a weapon (an improvised weapon) though on a brawler it is probably better to go with the spiked gauntlet (or its variants). If you are using the character builder it does not recognize unarmed strikes as a weapon (or I should say it only shows it when you have no weapons at all equipped and it will not allow you to equip unarmed attack for some stupid reason) but that is a bug. My favorite brawler dual wields spiked gauntlets it is vicious especially if you can get that sash that grapples a third target for you. Just be sure to boost your fort defense as much as you can (for a brawler it can never be too high) and get inescapable hold to make all enemies try to escape against your fort defense.
I know nothing about Brawlers, so everything I say here may seem ridiculous. :smalltongue:
I remember unarmed strikes are really sucky in 4e. I know Monks get a better unarmed strike, but does Brawler Fighter get one as well? Also... why do I need high Fortitude?

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 04:09 PM
Free hand does not count as TWF.

That said, it takes a minor action to sheath a weapon or a free action to drop it. As a Human Brawler MC Rogue you won't be using your minor actions too often so you should be fine.

To be honest looking at the rules you should be able to use unarmed attack with the two weapon fighting feat.

Unless you think spiked gauntlets, wrist razors, spiked shields, gauntlet axes, and other weapons do not work with two weapon fighting? Then I guess you would have a point (but I do not think that is the intent). I think the term one weapon each hand refers to "main hand" and "off hand" which allows these weapons to apply since otherwise none of these weapons work since none of them are wielded in your physical hands.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-10, 04:09 PM
That is an interesting, but that's also not the character I want to play.



I know nothing about Brawlers, so everything I say here may seem ridiculous. :smalltongue:
I remember unarmed strikes are really sucky in 4e. I know Monks get a better unarmed strike, but does Brawler Fighter get one as well? Also... why do I need high Fortitude?

Basically Brawler fighters do damage with their weapon in their main hand and either kidneypunch or grab or chokeslam with their free hand.

Kylarra
2011-02-10, 04:16 PM
Unless you're overly attached to the spear for spear feats, you could probably get your DM to allow you to use a functional dagger weapon that looks like a spear. Then use sorcerous blade channeling for your melee attacks and such.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 04:20 PM
That is an interesting, but that's also not the character I want to play.



I know nothing about Brawlers, so everything I say here may seem ridiculous. :smalltongue:
I remember unarmed strikes are really sucky in 4e. I know Monks get a better unarmed strike, but does Brawler Fighter get one as well? Also... why do I need high Fortitude?

I had a hunch the monk would not be for you but it did fit mechanically so I tried:smallwink:.

Unarmed attacks are bad since they have no prof bonus to attack and they deal relatively small damage (also they have relatively small amount of feat support). There are only two fighter builds worth using for unarmed attack and they do it differently. Arena fighter and the brawler.

The brawler fighter is the more common choice. It gives you a boost to AC and fort and lets you use grappling strike for opportunity attacks (very important).

Brawlers also get the best feat support for grabs and nice feats for your fists.

Brawler guard-gives you shield bonus for fighting with a free hand.

inescapable hold- makes every escape attempt against fort. Normally an acrobatics check is made against reflex (which for you is weak) to escape but with this feat even using acrobatics the target must fact your huge fort defense. At high levels this will ensure that targets cannot escape your grasp.

Brutal brawler will increase your unarmed damage to 1d6 and your spiked gauntlet to 1d8.

Grappling strike (a power) makes you grab a target after hitting them for normal damage. Brawlers can do this on an opportunity attack so you can stop an enemy in their tracks which is great for a defender.

Notice that brawlers are all about grabbing. They are all about using their fists as a way to grab targets. It is a lot of fun asnd makes you into a melee controller.

Arena fighters are all about doing more damage with your fists (at least in this case). Arena fighters treat all improvised weapons as +2 d8 weapons. This is important since unarmed attacks are improvised weapons and they will now be decent weapons. Once you grab ki focus proficiency you can then add enchantments to your fists. Arena fighters are even better than brawler fighters in a punch to punch match though brawlers have the super awesome grabbing to bring to the table.

EDIT: I should note that if you are using the character builder that it does not apply your ki focus to your unarmed attacks. I do not know why, though it is probably because they did not expect people to use a standard unarmed attack and you cannot place unarmed attack in your equipment slots so if the ki focus uses that in the program it would explain why it does not work in the CB.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 04:35 PM
RAW, there is no way to use a spear as an implement for Arcane attacks. If you want, you can ask your DM if he'll let you use one as an implement. I can't imagine him saying no.

If that doesn't, the closest thing you're going to get it wielding a glaive and taking Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades). However, if you're a Sorcerer, you're probably not going to be able to do much with it other than make basic attacks (once you take Melee Training, of course). Other ideas:

-Play a Half-Elf Dragon Sorcerer with War Song Strike as your Dilettante power, taking Weapon Proficiency (Glaive), Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades), and Melee Training (Charisma). This gives you the ability to charge and make basic attacks with your glaive, as well a potent melee buff attack. Once you hit paragon, you can retrain War Song Strike for Eldritch Strike and Versatile Master for Melee Training, letting you use Eldritch Strike at-will.

-Play a hybrid Eladrin Sorcerer / Warlock with Eldritch Strike and the Sorcerer at-will of your choosing. Melee Training is not necessary in this case as ES doubles as a melee basic. Instead, take Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Sorcerer (Dragon). All of your stats go to Str and Cha. Only downside to this one is that your Warlock powers may be a bit lackluster, but even without riders there's some powerful mojo there.

-Play a hybrid Eladrin Sorcerer / Bard with War Song Strike and the Sorcerer at-will of your choosing. Melee Training is not as necessary, but still nice. This build lets you split your powers between Charisma-based Melee Weapon attacks and powerful Sorcerer bursts and blasts. You'll still need Arcane Implement Proficiency and Weapon Proficiency (and also probably Unarmored Agility, since you'll be in melee quite a bit), but you'll also have a 1x encounter heal at your disposal. Overall, I think this is the closest to what you're looking for.

mobdrazhar
2011-02-10, 07:24 PM
Sorry I do not know how to quote in a post in an edited post.

Unarmed attacks do count as a weapon (an improvised weapon) though on a brawler it is probably better to go with the spiked gauntlet (or its variants). If you are using the character builder it does not recognize unarmed strikes as a weapon (or I should say it only shows it when you have no weapons at all equipped and it will not allow you to equip unarmed attack for some stupid reason) but that is a bug. My favorite brawler dual wields spiked gauntlets it is vicious especially if you can get that sash that grapples a third target for you. Just be sure to boost your fort defense as much as you can (for a brawler it can never be too high) and get inescapable hold to make all enemies try to escape against your fort defense.

that was the build that i was looking at taking that way if you want you can take some powers that require 2 weapons as well as ones that require 1 hand to be free

gurban
2011-02-10, 08:54 PM
Brawler fighter is really fun. You will definitely get the title of guy most annoying to the DM because you are constantly with his monsters. If you can get up and grab a caster/ evil wizard type, you can really lock em down. Also, brawler fighters are proficient with unarmed attacks, so the hit rather regularly, but only d4 damage, until you get spiked gauntlet and Brutal Brawler, and Wrenching Grasp. One fight last session, I didn't even bother getting my weapon out.

WinWin
2011-02-11, 01:04 AM
If going for the Duelist/Knight character, consider a couple of things.

Multiclassing to rogue will grant sneak attack, but without feat or item investment, this will not function with heavy blades or unarmed/gauntlet attacks. This may be a 2 feat investment. One for the multiclass, one for a feat to enable SA

Fighters get an option of either a bonus to opportunity attacks or an ability to follow an opponent that moves away from them, either should work while mounted. This choice is a class feature and is not normally an option for retraining. It is important as it may affect which stats are important (if using point buy).

Mounted combat enables special mount qualities of certain creatures. Such as a warhorse granting a damage bonus to charge attacks. A fairly trouble-free option is to buy a Figurine of Wonderous power-Onyx Steed. It grants 'free' mounted combat while being ridden. You can also put it in your pocket while dungeon crawling. If starting at level 6 you could technically start with one, though you could also ask to artificer to make it for you.

Master at Arms is a valuable feat if you are planning on using more than one type of weapon. It works like expertise, but covers every melee weapon.

Other than that, have fun.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 11:02 AM
I've found that Master At Arms is really only worth taking if you multiclass Assassin, as the Ki Focus alleviates the need to invest in multiple magic weapons.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 12:15 PM
Fighters get an option of either a bonus to opportunity attacks or an ability to follow an opponent that moves away from them, either should work while mounted. This choice is a class feature and is not normally an option for retraining. It is important as it may affect which stats are important (if using point buy).
I just noticed this. It made me sad. :/
I want a character with a high Charisma. He is supposed to lead, trick and seduce people. Yet I will have a useless class feature or a sucky Will defense if I do it. Damn. Damn it all to hell.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 12:21 PM
I just noticed this. It made me sad. :/
I want a character with a high Charisma. He is supposed to lead, trick and seduce people. Yet I will have a useless class feature or a sucky Will defense if I do it. Damn. Damn it all to hell.

How would the Warlord class work for the character then?

Kurald Galain
2011-02-11, 12:26 PM
I want a character with a high Charisma. He is supposed to lead, trick and seduce people. Yet I will have a useless class feature or a sucky Will defense if I do it. Damn. Damn it all to hell.
Almost every character has a low defense, that's not a problem.

However, you have a wide amount of diverging requirements for a character; that doesn't mesh well with a system that rewards specialization.

Also, leading people can be done with intelligence (warlords!), tricking people can be done with dexterity (stealth and thievery), and seducing people is not covered by the rules anyway since they are kid-friendly.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 12:27 PM
How would the Warlord class work for the character then?
It fits the concept. I really wanted to deal good damage. And I really enjoy the thoughts of grabbing people on AoO. I think I'll just dump Wisdom and never look back. I heard time and time again that accuracy is key on 4e, but I heard recently on the boards that it isn't... so I figure I should be OK. The real fun will be on roleplaying him. "Sir Darien. Or just Darien if you care about what the king thinks."

Kurald Galain
2011-02-11, 12:34 PM
I heard time and time again that accuracy is key on 4e, but I heard recently on the boards that it isn't...
There are two camps on the topic. One believes that, since to-hit bonuses are rare, they are therefore important and must be taken immediately. The other believes that, on a 1d20 roll, a +1 bonus is really not a big deal mathematically. A small minority claims that a character is only playable if it starts with a 20 primary stat and two accuracy-boosting feats.

Most classes have ways of dealing with lack of accuracy, ranging from rolling twice (avenger) to big bonuses (rogue) to multiattacks (ranger, wizard) to autohits (cleric, 4.4 wizard) to simply ordering your allies around (warlord).

Kylarra
2011-02-11, 12:37 PM
Charisma boosts your will defense anyway, so I'm not sure why that came up.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 12:39 PM
It fits the concept. I really wanted to deal good damage. And I really enjoy the thoughts of grabbing people on AoO. I think I'll just dump Wisdom and never look back. I heard time and time again that accuracy is key on 4e, but I heard recently on the boards that it isn't... so I figure I should be OK. The real fun will be on roleplaying him. "Sir Darien. Or just Darien if you care about what the king thinks."

The one thing that really confuses me about this character concept is the leather armor. Perhaps the common media protrayal is incorrect, but wouldn't jousting Knights be wearing full on plate mail and use a shield? What's happened that Darien has abandonded the fighting style he should be the most experienced in?

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 12:40 PM
Charisma boosts your will defense anyway, so I'm not sure why that came up.

If I split my points between Wisdom and Charisma, my Will defense will suffer.


The one thing that really confuses me about this character concept is the leather armor. Perhaps the common media protrayal is incorrect, but wouldn't jousting Knights be wearing full on plate mail and use a shield? What's happened that Darien has abandonded the fighting style he should be the most experienced in?
He is a former jousting champion, now he is more like a thug. He lost his title and his equipment. I wanted him to be poor, but I believe that would nerf me really hard. But the armor is more for mobility than anything else. Hide could work as well, I guess.

Sipex
2011-02-11, 01:04 PM
It also sounds like that you can start with the thug idea where your character isn't the dynamo you're looking for (very charismatic, etc) but as you level up (and get feats) you can develop him into the character you want him to become.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 01:06 PM
It also sounds like that you can start with the thug idea where your character isn't the dynamo you're looking for (very charismatic, etc) but as you level up (and get feats) you can develop him into the character you want him to become.
Yeah, I could do that, but I really don't want to. I'll just dump Wisdom. Should work fine.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 01:17 PM
He is a former jousting champion, now he is more like a thug. He lost his title and his equipment. I wanted him to be poor, but I believe that would nerf me really hard. But the armor is more for mobility than anything else. Hide could work as well, I guess.
This sounds like you're going for Hybrid Warlord/Rogue. Pump Strength and Dex, and at your first opportunity take Versatile Duelist (which lets you count Heavy Blades as Light Blades for the purposes of qualifying for Sneak Attack and Rogue Powers). Hybrid Talent would probably best be spent on Rogue Tactics: Brute Scoundrel. At-Will choices should be Duelist's Flurry (lets you deal Sneak Attack damage to targets that aren't granting Combat Advantage) and Viper's Strike (Nice for keeping enemies in place). If you're human, you can grab both at level 1 and get Mounted Combat at level 2. Your role in combat would be leader/striker, using the mobility of your mount to assist your allies and give them bonuses to their attacks before dishing out the big damage yourself. While you won't be the most eloquent guy in the group, starting with 16 Str 16 Dex 14 Cha means that you won't be a slouch in the "party face" department. You'd also be fantastic at charging stuff too.

Does this sound more like what you were going for?

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 01:24 PM
This sounds like you're going for Hybrid Warlord/Rogue.
DM banned hybrids (I believe I mentioned this in the OP). Otherwise, this whole thing would be a lot easier to do.

RebelRogue
2011-02-11, 02:07 PM
Actually, this thread has made me want to play a Brawler Fighter Knight... I'd love to see what you end up with here.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 02:10 PM
If Hybrids are out, then yeah, Brawler Fighter is probably the way you want to go. Scale > Leather unless you have 18 Dex, in which case Hide is the way to go. Either way, all you're sacrificing is a meager 1 speed, and that shouldn't matter at all if you're going to be on a horse the entire time anyway.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 02:16 PM
Or go hide and boost dex all the time. If you want the hide to look good just make sure the character always buys hide armor only made from the most exotic and beautiful creatures. If you want him to look poor then just use hide as it could potentially look more ragged than leather.

If you need a sword and you are going to multiclass rogue ever do not use heavy blades they are weaker in most ways and are less thematic to boot. Use the classic rapier it is a martial weapon and it has great support in feats and rogue multiclass if you want to use that.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 02:42 PM
If Hybrids are out, then yeah, Brawler Fighter is probably the way you want to go. Scale > Leather unless you have 18 Dex, in which case Hide is the way to go. Either way, all you're sacrificing is a meager 1 speed, and that shouldn't matter at all if you're going to be on a horse the entire time anyway.

I know scale is more optimal, but it loses speed. It also gives penalties to skills, doesn't it? I want to be highly mobile (I'm thinking of getting that Rogue multiclass feat that adds Charisma to AC against AoO).
And my character is not going to be on a horse every time, of course. I just want him to be able to fight well on horseback because it would make no sense for a former jousting champion to be bad at it. He'll be on foot most of the time - I won't even buy a mount.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 02:43 PM
Scale actually doesn't impede any skill checks. Just a -1 to speed.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 02:45 PM
Scale actually doesn't impede any skill checks. Just a -1 to speed.
What? I could swear even hide gave you -1 on them.

gourdcaptain
2011-02-11, 02:47 PM
What? I could swear even hide gave you -1 on them.

Scale does not have any armor check penalty to skills. You can even (at paragon) buy off the speed penalty as part of the Armor Specialization (Scale) feat (which requires 15 Dex, aka starting with 14 (assuming no 4th level boosts)) which also gives +1 Feat bonus to AC in scale.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 02:47 PM
What? I could swear even hide gave you -1 on them.

Yes hide does give a -1 with skill checks but scale does not. Scale gives a penalty to speed but has no penalty to skills.

At paragon you can get armor expertise with scale armor that gives bonus AC and removes the speed penalty. It requires 15 dex. In addition this would allow you to be able to boost cha if you like since you will not need sky high dex to keep your AC up.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 02:50 PM
Yes hide does give a -1 with skill checks but scale does not. Scale gives a penalty to speed but has no penalty to skills.

That... makes no sense. Oh well. I will just try not to think about it.

Sipex
2011-02-11, 02:51 PM
I think it's covered in the fluff about scale. It mentions something about the armor being made to accomodate for movement or something.

Excession
2011-02-11, 03:01 PM
Even if the character is poor, he could be the type who would rather starve than sell his armour or weapon to pay for food. As a knight the whole "shining armour" thing defined him, and it's rather important to survival as well, he wouldn't give that up easily. He probably did have to sell his horse, as at level 1 you won't have the cash to buy armour, weapon, and mount out of the starting 100 gp.

I should mention that the 100 gp is a game mechanic, it doesn't have to represent walking into Adventurer Mart with 100 gp in cash.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-11, 03:02 PM
That... makes no sense. Oh well. I will just try not to think about it.

It's not like a -1 to certain skill checks is particularly noticeable during play :smallcool:

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 03:21 PM
Even if the character is poor, he could be the type who would rather starve than sell his armour or weapon to pay for food. As a knight the whole "shining armour" thing defined him, and it's rather important to survival as well, he wouldn't give that up easily. He probably did have to sell his horse, as at level 1 you won't have the cash to buy armour, weapon, and mount out of the starting 100 gp.

I should mention that the 100 gp is a game mechanic, it doesn't have to represent walking into Adventurer Mart with 100 gp in cash.

I'm level 6, so that doesn't help. I need magical gear so as not to lag behing, even if my concept hurts because of that.
I just don't want scale armor. With high Dex it won't mind and I get better initiative anyway.

Excession
2011-02-11, 03:32 PM
Ah, my group has basically switched to using inherent bonuses, so magic gear isn't the same for us.

Have you looked into the Rogue class? High damage, leather armour, Cha is either a secondary or tertiary stat. It might not be what springs to mind for a knight, but I think it could work. Maybe take a multiclass to Fighter or Paladin or represent what you used to be, before you learned to stop hiding behind the shining armour and fight dirty.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 03:34 PM
Have you looked into the Rogue class? High damage, leather armour, Cha is either a secondary or tertiary stat. It might not be what springs to mind for a knight, but I think it could work. Maybe take a multiclass to Fighter or Paladin or represent what you used to be, before you learned to stop hiding behind the shining armour and fight dirty.

Not what I want, but thanks. Brawler Fighter with MC Rogue fits perfectly.

nightwyrm
2011-02-11, 03:59 PM
If you don't want to use wis for your OA to hit bonus (coz you want high cha), there's a feat that uses dex for it instead.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 04:50 PM
Or just not worry about it. The best part is normally the stopping movement but you already get that from grabbing with the grappling strike power (and you have that power right?).

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 06:19 PM
If you don't want to use wis for your OA to hit bonus (coz you want high cha), there's a feat that uses dex for it instead.

Oh, that's just sweet! Perfect! Where can I find this feat?

Kylarra
2011-02-11, 06:35 PM
Agile Superiority out of Dragon 378.