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View Full Version : what to say to a back seat driver type?



randomhero00
2011-02-09, 01:37 PM
She constantly back seat DMs. Constant rules lawyer. Always trying to figure out the builds of the other players to make sure they aren't "cheating" (no one has ever been known to cheat). And then loves accusing people of metagaming behind their backs as she's in the midst of metagaming herself. She seems to have no self awareness. I've already confronted her nicely on it, she admits to it in one breathe, and in another continues her behavior.

She's not really a bad *player* but she is. so. freaking. annoying.

Old player (and connected to another) so out right kicking her out is a no go.

Trying to get the DM to intervene more and sometimes that works. But he isn't the proactive type (avoids conflict, etc).

The funniest bit is that she thinks everyone else is overpowered (we're all playing tier 3 or lower and she has a tier 1). In addition to the fact she has 2 levels on the rest of the party (don't ask).

just. annoying.

I don't think there's really anything I can do, but I thought I'd ask.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-09, 01:41 PM
Figuring out other people's builds out of curiosity is a fine thing. Accusing everybody of cheating without evidence is not. Perhaps mention to her that she's annoying other people by being accusatory. Sure, she should be able to notice this without being told, but some people are pretty oblivious.

If that doesn't work, set her character on fire.

randomhero00
2011-02-09, 01:43 PM
If that doesn't work, set her character on fire.

So tempting as I'm playing CN Predator type (evolution, survival of the fittest, etc). But I'd have to work it into the story somehow or everyone would blame me for interrupting the story over a squabble.

The ironic thing is that she has tried to get me in character, just not while getting her hands dirty. When she was alone with a (unknown)boss she told him of me to try to get him to kill me.

Of course I can't kill her for it or its metagaming (since my char didnt hear about it) and it'll just strengthen her feelings.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-09, 01:45 PM
One fun way to deal with random ridiculousness of players is to take everything they say as in character speech.

I should mention that neither this nor setting everything aflame is really a non-confrontational approach....but after giving fair warning that a person is being a problem, I have no issues with confrontation. Or playing up said confrontation for humor value.

Telonius
2011-02-09, 01:51 PM
I propose you start a drinking game (assuming you're all of legal age). One shot of beer for everyone each time she mentions the word "metagame," two for each time she asks to see a character sheet, and three for each time she accuses someone of cheating. Either the behavior will stop, or everyone will pass out. Either way, win.

Vladislav
2011-02-09, 01:55 PM
Try reverse psychology.

Constantly ask her for advice about your build. Constantly ask for advice about how to roleplay this or that situation. Have other players do the same. Soon enough, she will not be able to stand the sight of your character sheet.

Another_Poet
2011-02-09, 02:06 PM
Try reverse psychology.

Constantly ask her for advice about your build. Constantly ask for advice about how to roleplay this or that situation. Have other players do the same. Soon enough, she will not be able to stand the sight of your character sheet.

I was kind of thinking this too for a slightly different reason - she obviously is bursting at the seams to show off her knowledge of the rules, power levels, builds etc. If you solicit her help as a resource (even when you don't really need it) it's like giving the over-the-top roleplayer a chance to give a convincing speech. It lets them do what they really want to do, get a share of the spotlight in the way they want it.

Try indulging her halfway, and see if she doesn't start to become a little more team-oriented and a little less attention grabby.

valadil
2011-02-09, 02:16 PM
I may not be the best to answer this because I'm prone to being a doormat. My technique for avoiding this type of player is mainly to not invite them. I have refused to GM for certain people on the basis that they would back seat GM my entire game.

However I can address the rules lawyering section. A rules lawyer does not have to be antagonistic. As GM I regularly appoint a designated rules lawyer. They keep track of all the minor rules stuff that goes on in the game.

I like this approach for two reasons:

1. It gives the rules lawyer responsibility and recognition. They're know-it-alls who want the rest of the PCs to see how much hard work they put into getting the rules right. This gives them a chance to do so. The responsibility also imparts an amount of trust from the GM onto the rules lawyer. If I treat the players like I trust them, they're more likely to behave like adults, instead of trying to get away with shenanigans.

2. More importantly it keeps the rules lawyer busy. He can't go over someone else's character sheet if the GM just asked him how grapple works.

nedz
2011-02-09, 03:06 PM
He can't go over someone else's character sheet if the GM just asked him how grapple works.

THIS !

Just keep asking them how the grapple rules work.

Over and over again until it becomes an in joke :smallbiggrin:

For a bit of variety ask them how Sunder works, or Disarm or whatever.

Cog
2011-02-09, 03:14 PM
For a bit of variety ask them how Sunder works, or Disarm or whatever.
No, no. Those are easy, next to Grapple.

This calls for Incarnum.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 03:23 PM
I would personally recommend a bit of brutal honesty combined with snark.

Every single time she does this ignore her questions/comments and tell her she's being annoying. If she can't handle that then she'll leave of her own volition. Either that or she'll stop doing it.

Another_Poet
2011-02-09, 04:47 PM
I would personally recommend a bit of brutal honesty combined with snark.

Every single time she does this ignore her questions/comments and tell her she's being annoying. If she can't handle that then she'll leave of her own volition. Either that or she'll stop doing it.

Aside from what I said above, I strongly second this. Be consistent, firm, and unwavering.

prufock
2011-02-09, 05:04 PM
I would personally recommend a bit of brutal honesty combined with snark.

Every single time she does this ignore her questions/comments and tell her she's being annoying. If she can't handle that then she'll leave of her own volition. Either that or she'll stop doing it.

This is beautiful in its simplicity.

archon_huskie
2011-02-09, 05:08 PM
There is no solution to this problem that will not involve confrontation. Since you are asking what to say, avoid making a joke of it. First, tell the DM how you feel and that you are planning on telling her this. (DM has a right to know that you are going to potentially disrupt the game. Might even back you up.)

Confront her. Tell her that she's annoying/rude/whatever. Ask her to tone it back or stop.

Yora
2011-02-09, 05:22 PM
I never had that problem myself, but in one group I played as a player, I was by far the most experienced with the system and noticed a lot of flaws in the main DMs interpretation of the rules, but decided to keep quiet about it and play by the rules the groups accepted as being followed.
But when we had rotating DMs later in the campaign, I once pulled back the main DM and the other long time player and told them to just relax and accept the currents DMs interpretation of planar mechanics. It was never made clear to our characters through which planes we were hopping and they could always regard it as a couple of custom demi-planes with unique properties. I think they could reasonably accept that.

It depends a lot on the campaign and the group you're playing with, but I think all players should understand that no game is ever played 100% by RAW. And if it's a campaign run by a single DM, it's best for everyone else to accept that the DM wants to handle certain things in a certain way in this campaign, and the other people in the group please should just accept that things are handled this way right now. You can start discussions about it, but it's usually not worth the time. Just accept it and go with it.
It's a bit different when you have a campaign with multiple DMs, but that's the reasons I usually only run games as the only DM.
(Used to be a DM on a Neverwinter Nights 24/7 roleplaying server with a bunch of very eccentric people. How often we had long discussions about how to solve continuity errors caused by DMs having different ideas about the setting... :smallsigh: )

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-09, 06:52 PM
Ask her is she's the DM. It's also not a bad idea to solve long rules questions out of the game.

Shpadoinkle
2011-02-09, 06:56 PM
I'd say "You're being a backseat driver and it's incredibly annoying. Please stop."

LansXero
2011-02-09, 08:43 PM
I'd say "You're being a backseat driver and it's incredibly annoying. Please stop."

Perhaps not as directly but yeah, what happened with talking with people about what you like or dislike of them? Most people I know that Im friends with can take a bit of criticism and dish it back, and remain friends. I dont consider myself perfect and neither does anyone I know, so if I was being annoying (without knowing) to someone, Id rather have them tell me so than start ignoring me / making jokes about me / dismissing me and wait for me to 'get it'. Id probably just think they are rude and possibly even ungrateful, since she seems to be trying to help, albeit in her annoying way. Just be frank, honest and do it in a plain voice without an accusational or derogatory tone, mature and politely, and any sane normal person will take it as fair criticism and not as an attack. And those others? they would probably take anything as an attack anyways, so you didnt lose anything.

big teej
2011-02-09, 09:50 PM
I have several looks and/or glares I give people that apparently convey volumes (so I've been told by people with extensive experience interacting with people)

I find the two/three most useful looks/glares in these situations are

a) the "you're a complete idiot, please shut up now" look
b) the "you don't have room to talk"* look
c) the "dude, will you please wait FIVE FREAKING SECONDS while I address this far more legitimate concern that -other player- has before I smite your heathen @$$" look


*room to talk is defined by teej's friends as "out of arms length and/or hitting/smiting distance"

Barbin
2011-02-09, 10:06 PM
Just tell her that she annoying (and possibly disrupting the game) and you ( and possibly the other players find it annoying). Just be direct and frank with her.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-09, 10:20 PM
I never had that problem myself, but in one group I played as a player, I was by far the most experienced with the system and noticed a lot of flaws in the main DMs interpretation of the rules, but decided to keep quiet about it and play by the rules the groups accepted as being followed.
But when we had rotating DMs later in the campaign, I once pulled back the main DM and the other long time player and told them to just relax and accept the currents DMs interpretation of planar mechanics. It was never made clear to our characters through which planes we were hopping and they could always regard it as a couple of custom demi-planes with unique properties. I think they could reasonably accept that.

It depends a lot on the campaign and the group you're playing with, but I think all players should understand that no game is ever played 100% by RAW. And if it's a campaign run by a single DM, it's best for everyone else to accept that the DM wants to handle certain things in a certain way in this campaign, and the other people in the group please should just accept that things are handled this way right now. You can start discussions about it, but it's usually not worth the time. Just accept it and go with it.
It's a bit different when you have a campaign with multiple DMs, but that's the reasons I usually only run games as the only DM.
(Used to be a DM on a Neverwinter Nights 24/7 roleplaying server with a bunch of very eccentric people. How often we had long discussions about how to solve continuity errors caused by DMs having different ideas about the setting... :smallsigh: )

This is definately a good way to go about it. At least give it a chance. If it doesn't work, then maybe try the "take everything she says as in character speech" aproach.

Also, Yora, was the Neverwinter world you DM'ed on Avlis, by chance?

Enterti
2011-02-09, 10:22 PM
As the Rules Lawyer for my own group (and admittedly a pretty massive one at that) Ireccomend the solicit help method. Not only does it get them on your side but in most cases it can lead to a much better character (unless she is a poor optimizer). But even if she begins to take the character away from your original concept you can just "remember" the outline of a feat you intended on taking or maybe state the name and she will likely dig for the feat for as long as it will take to give you an evaluation of how well it works.

Alternatively if you ever have to DM for her and she starts trying to guess NPC builds just smile and nod as she continues to guess what they are. Not telling or acknowledging her guesses will likely get her tired of the guessing game or even better give you a strong base to build off of.

In short use the attention cravingness of the Rules Lawyer against them. The greatest failing they usually have is that they seek praise for their cleverness but in the end annoy more people than they impress.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 10:31 PM
As the Rules Lawyer for my own group (and admittedly a pretty massive one at that) Ireccomend the solicit help method. Not only does it get them on your side but in most cases it can lead to a much better character (unless she is a poor optimizer). But even if she begins to take the character away from your original concept you can just "remember" the outline of a feat you intended on taking or maybe state the name and she will likely dig for the feat for as long as it will take to give you an evaluation of how well it works.

Alternatively if you ever have to DM for her and she starts trying to guess NPC builds just smile and nod as she continues to guess what they are. Not telling or acknowledging her guesses will likely get her tired of the guessing game or even better give you a strong base to build off of.

In short use the attention cravingness of the Rules Lawyer against them. The greatest failing they usually have is that they seek praise for their cleverness but in the end annoy more people than they impress.

From what the OP was saying it's one player causing trouble for the entire rest of the group. You think the entire group should cater to one player whose acting out of turn? That seems like the exact wrong way to handle it in my opinion.

Enterti
2011-02-09, 10:39 PM
From what the OP was saying it's one player causing trouble for the entire rest of the group. You think the entire group should cater to one player whose acting out of turn? That seems like the exact wrong way to handle it in my opinion.

Sorry I wasn't exactly clear on what I meant. I am not the best at getting my ideas out on a computer.

What I intended to mean wasn't for the group to cater to the rules lawyer but instead to take advantage of her knowledge (assuming that she actually knows what she is talking about) but if she gets too far off from the concept you want then gently reign her back in. Its less solving the problem more turning the problem into an asset. If it still annoys you then the next best method is likely to just tell her that she is bothering you and you would rather her not.

Aemoh87
2011-02-09, 10:43 PM
Tell her your playing a game!

Because it's supposed to be fun. It's not a contest of who can google characters harder or read forums faster. Because then it would be initiative to pun pun in fear of who breaks the sequence first to kill the others as the DM gets in his car and drives home. Most groups fudge the rules for simplicity or just to speed things up.

As for players cheating, it's a game. Lets hope they are mature about it, and if they are not, the DM should handle it since he is allowed to see their character sheet anyways.

NMBLNG
2011-02-09, 10:59 PM
+1 for asking the back seat driver for assistance. This will probably help with the rules lawyering.

As for figuring out other players builds so they don't cheat, that's fine. As long as she's open to you looking at her character build, and doesn't actually accuse anyone of cheating.

Being a back-seat DM is the DM's problem. Let us know when/if you are the DM.

The metagaming may a bit more complicated. It seems like you've made it clear to her that she metagames as well. (By literally saying something like "You metagame too, like is situation x where you did y"). Make it known to her that when she accuses others of metagaming, when she does it as well, it is not welcome.

Now, she may remind other people because she has a problem metagaming, and reminding others helps her be more aware of the problem. If this is the case, you can probably find a better compromise.

The only advice I wouldn't follow is some of the 'direct and stern' advice. Not that being direct is bad, but you really need to make sure you're getting your point across in these situations. A glaring look will not let her know what the problem is, nor will most snarky remarks. If you want her to recognise that this is an issue, you do have to spell it out.

Unless you are a psion.

Typewriter
2011-02-09, 11:25 PM
+1 for asking the back seat driver for assistance. This will probably help with the rules lawyering.

As for figuring out other players builds so they don't cheat, that's fine. As long as she's open to you looking at her character build, and doesn't actually accuse anyone of cheating.

Being a back-seat DM is the DM's problem. Let us know when/if you are the DM.

The metagaming may a bit more complicated. It seems like you've made it clear to her that she metagames as well. (By literally saying something like "You metagame too, like is situation x where you did y"). Make it known to her that when she accuses others of metagaming, when she does it as well, it is not welcome.

Now, she may remind other people because she has a problem metagaming, and reminding others helps her be more aware of the problem. If this is the case, you can probably find a better compromise.

The only advice I wouldn't follow is some of the 'direct and stern' advice. Not that being direct is bad, but you really need to make sure you're getting your point across in these situations. A glaring look will not let her know what the problem is, nor will most snarky remarks. If you want her to recognise that this is an issue, you do have to spell it out.

Unless you are a psion.

So the answer to someone continuously getting in your business about something you don't care about is to try and care about it? I think if he had any interest in something useful coming from her this thread wouldn't have come about. Asking for someone for assistance when you don't want, or need, it is nothing but a waste of time. Remember, just because someone is offering you advice, even if that advice might improve your character, doesn't mean you want their advice.

The answer is most definitely to simply be direct and honest. Every single time it happens.

Aemoh87
2011-02-10, 12:28 AM
Yeah asking her to be more annoying just seems like it could backfire. Plus it sounds like she is competing with you guys not adventuring with you.

paddyfool
2011-02-10, 05:53 AM
A riff on the drinking game: suggest a drinking game where people have to drink whenever they fall into one of their usual foibles, as nominated before the game started by the person on their left. This way you can make it clear to her what she's doing without making it all about her.

To detail the suggestion, you could nominate the player on your right to "have to drink whenever you [spill something/have to spend more than 5 seconds looking something up/make a pop culture reference/whatever he might be prone to], he suggests something to the person on his right, and the person on her left says: "You have to drink every time you make a rules query". Midway through the suggestion, switch directions and nominate new foibles for the person on your left, so that someone says to her: "You have to drink every time you metagame. Talking about whether other people may be metagaming counts".

Yora
2011-02-10, 06:30 AM
Also, Yora, was the Neverwinter world you DM'ed on Avlis, by chance?
No Delymbyir, a german server. Since I never heard of Avlis, I assume it was not german. We basically knew all of each other back then. :smallbiggrin:

(PLEASE! Anyone create an easy to use world editor to run 24/7 online games again! I don't care if the graphics are cheap! :smallsigh: )

Tyndmyr
2011-02-10, 09:06 AM
Ask her is she's the DM. It's also not a bad idea to solve long rules questions out of the game.

I honestly don't mind rules advice. Getting the rules right is a decent goal, and helping out newer players with rules is something I like to see players doing. Being the rules lawyer is absolutely fine, provided it's the type of rules lawyer who wants to see things done by the book. If you're the type that's always misinterpreting things for personal gain...eh.

However, HOW you do this is very important. Being helpful is awesome. Accusing someone of cheating w/o evidence is the opposite of helpful. Generally, when someone gets rules wrong, I assume a mistake first unless I have good reason to suspect otherwise. It's much less offensive.

Gullintanni
2011-02-10, 12:43 PM
If that doesn't work, set her character on fire.

In keeping with the spirit of this awesome suggestion...



Of course I can't kill her for it or its metagaming (since my char didnt hear about it) and it'll just strengthen her feelings.

...and this restriction...I suggesting gaming the metagame. Set her character sheet on fire. And then remind her that you didn't kill her character. THAT would be metagaming. :smallbiggrin:

...in truth, as with most conflicts that arise, all you can really do is have a sincere discussion with the player causing the difficulties. If the other players feel the same way you do, you may all want to have this conversation with her...just be careful not to gang up on her and be respectful.

If you've tried this and it hasn't worked, and the DM is not willing to curb this behavior, then you're probably stuck between this game or no game.