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Loki Eremes
2011-02-09, 02:36 PM
Hi there PlayGrounders.
Some fragments of the rules i need to copy to ask my question...

RUN
"You can run as a full-round action."

JUMP
"Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action."

"Your Jump check is modified by your speed (...) If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet"

"Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round"




what are my questions?
Well.

1- Is RUNNING considered the normal maximum movement in a round?
2- If the previous one is correct, then do i get the +4 bonuses for each 10ft of speed after 30ft? (ex: orc barbarian= 40ft; runs at 160ft; after 30ft ~130ft= 13(every 10ft) *(+4) = +52 to jump?)


as far as this looks crazy, it more reasonable than just a +4 because of the 10ft extras after the 30ft of speed.
Its like you are just walking to the edge and jumping without worrying too much...

ericgrau
2011-02-09, 02:38 PM
The +4's count your movement speed not how far you moved in the round. You need to move at least 20 feet in a straight line before a running jump. Otherwise the DCs are doubled.

Vladislav
2011-02-09, 02:38 PM
While an Orc Barbarian can run 160' in a round, his speed is not 160'. His speed is 40'. He only gets +4 on his Jump check, certainly not +52.

Cog
2011-02-09, 02:48 PM
"Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round"
This just means that you can't use a Jump check to go farther in a round than you otherwise would. For that orc barbarian, let's say he's gone 20' and rolled enough on his check to get a long jump distance of 90'. If he'd only been taking a double move, he'd end the turn in midair, and at the start of his next turn he'd move the remaining 30' of his jump. If he'd been running instead, he'd finish that jump on his first turn and could keep going in a straight line for an additional 70'. However, neither choice actually affects the distance of the check, so long as he got his moving start.

Loki Eremes
2011-02-09, 02:50 PM
While an Orc Barbarian can run 160' in a round, his speed is not 160'. His speed is 40'. He only gets +4 on his Jump check, certainly not +52.

yes, but the problem here is...why does it states "in a round"?
lets say i will not run.
lets say i will be only moving.
In a round you have 2 move actions. so i move 40 x2 = 80ft

thats a +20 to jump (50ft/10ft x4).
Still looks crazy but its more reasonable if you are looking to jump long distances.

Diarmuid
2011-02-09, 02:52 PM
Can you jump while running? Running in and of itself is a full round action, while jumping is part of a move action.

Loki Eremes
2011-02-09, 02:55 PM
Can you jump while running? Running in and of itself is a full round action, while jumping is part of a move action.

this is what i was asking in the first place :smallbiggrin:, so thx for the clarification.


now my doubt is what happens if you use your 2 move action to sum up the total speed IN A ROUND. :smallconfused:

Cog
2011-02-09, 03:06 PM
yes, but the problem here is...why does it states "in a round"?
Ninjas! Got my answer in just as you were writing that, probably.

Can you jump while running? Running in and of itself is a full round action, while jumping is part of a move action.

Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.
I think the bolded part is the important bit; the second bit is just a clarification.

Loki Eremes
2011-02-09, 03:09 PM
Ninjas! Got my answer in just as you were writing that, probably.


I think the bolded part is the important bit; the second bit is just a clarification.

Yes, this is what is getting me confused. Being part of a move action doesnt mean is a move action itself.
And it says that jumping dont use ANY actions.

Running is a full-round action. but its moving....I...[blue screen]

Diarmuid
2011-02-09, 03:10 PM
I dont think your bolded part is really the important part. The second part clarifies and defines the action "so it is part of a move action".

Edit - Moving is a move action, Running is not. You cannot jump while running.

Cog
2011-02-09, 03:25 PM
I dont think your bolded part is really the important part. The second part clarifies and defines the action "so it is part of a move action".

Edit - Moving is a move action, Running is not. You cannot jump while running.
That phrase breaks down to "Because A, then B". They say that 1) it's a nonaction, and 2) it's part of movement. The "so it is part of a move action" is expressed as if it's a necessary part of those two conditions, which isn't too unreasonable a thought if you've forgotten that running just happens to not be a move action for some reason. There have been other cases like this throughout the books - the one that comes to mind is Kensais needing to enhance their single unarmed strike at an extra cost because they have two fists.

You could easily make the case that jumping means you're no longer traveling in a straight line, though.

Diarmuid
2011-02-09, 03:40 PM
Just because Jumping isnt itself a Move action doesnt mean that Jumping can't be limited to only happening during a Move action.

Cog
2011-02-09, 03:42 PM
Just because Jumping isnt itself a Move action doesnt mean that Jumping can't be limited to only happening during a Move action.
You're right, it doesn't. Which is why I gave reasons more specific than that.

Diarmuid
2011-02-09, 03:45 PM
/shrug, seemed like it was the crux of your post (everything but the last 2 sentences was devoted to that topic).

Still not sure which side of the discussion you're really landing on though.

Either way, no jumping while running =).

No brains
2011-02-09, 03:48 PM
Ignoring all rules for a moment, think about someone running as fast as they can to build up momentum for a big jump. I'm sure we've all seen it, and it sure is dramatic, so it's not out of place in the world of D&D to jump during a run.

As for the running rules: if you run over a hill, up and then down, you're not going in a straight line so you can only run on any surface that has no imperfections on it whatsoever. This kinda talk slows down the game and can kill fun dead

Also, you need to move 20' before running? What if you ran in a circle, turning right 4 times so you could build up speed? More stuff that doesn't make sense that murders play.

Let whoever jump while running! I'm certain the world won't collapse!

Redrat2k6
2011-02-09, 03:51 PM
Guys, guys, guys, you can jump while running. Jumping is not part of a move action, it never says it is. It is part of your movement. Let me clarify again.

Part of movement.
Not part of move action.
Part of movement (which includes running because that is a form of movement).
Not part of move action.

Running is a full round action and is a form a movement.

You can jump as part of the movement of running.

Hope this helps.:smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2011-02-09, 03:52 PM
Jumping is part of movement. While that leads to the rules conclusion that it is part of a move action, it is not necessarily impossible as a part of other actions. Running is movement and otherwise the rules are unclear. Common sense says you can run at full speed while including jumps without reducing your speed, so it should be allowed. RAW only specifies "You canít run across difficult terrain or if you canít see where youíre going." So jumping may even be used to bypass difficult terrain.

EDIT: ninja ninja'd.

Cog
2011-02-09, 04:06 PM
/shrug, seemed like it was the crux of your post (everything but the last 2 sentences was devoted to that topic).
It was about that topic, yes. The devil's in the details, though, and it's those specific details that you didn't address in your response. Anyway...

Still not sure which side of the discussion you're really landing on though.
I'm saying that there's enough wriggle room by RAW for a DM to rule it either way. Like the other posters since, though, in my game I'd not hesitate to let somebody longjump while they're running.

MightyPirate
2011-02-09, 04:14 PM
This is actually something that's been interesting me in Pathfinder for some time now. The new skill, acrobatics, that combines balance, tumble and jump has similar wording. The difference being that a check can be made as a part of another action (doesn't specify what kind of action) or as a reaction to a situation.

This has also been removed: "Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round"

In combination with many different ways treat a standing jump as effectively a running jump (rogues and barbarians can do it by 2nd level and monks can do it even better come 5th level) you get a lot of melee characters with drastically improved mobility.

I'm torn whether this is an "obvious exploit" as said by Anburaid in this old thread (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/monksATreantmonkGuideOptimization) or if it's just a case of Paizo getting anime in my D&D and me liking it.

I apologize if this is off topic, it's just been bugging me for a while and I was wonder what the playgrounders might have to say about it.

Cog
2011-02-09, 04:22 PM
This has also been removed: "Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round"
So... as long as you keep tumbling, jumping, or climbing, you never stop ever, because you still haven't cut into your movement for the round? Somehow, I don't think that's what Paizo intended.

Diarmuid
2011-02-09, 04:27 PM
"Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump."

That's pretty cut and dry to me, at least from a RAW perspective. Not only does it say that jumping is a part of a move action, it even goes on to say that if you jump further than your movement, you have to spend yet another move action to complete the jump.

"it is part of a move action" doesnt really leave any wiggle room, again from a RAW perspective.

Loki Eremes
2011-02-09, 04:27 PM
Its not a problem at all, every point of view counts on this.
As every interpretation seems to generate different points of view.

This thread started as "you can run+jump" "the bonuses you obtain are for you normal speed afeter 30"

and moved to "yes, i think you can" "i would allow it" and so



A shame that it divided into to opposite points of view :P
It makes the whole thing more difficult.

Diarmuid
2011-02-09, 04:32 PM
Well, to be fair you did get your questions about the mechanics already answered.

A little hijacking once the OP is satisfied shouldnt be too far out of the question :smalltongue:

MightyPirate
2011-02-09, 04:32 PM
So... as long as you keep tumbling, jumping, or climbing, you never stop ever, because you still haven't cut into your movement for the round? Somehow, I don't think that's what Paizo intended.

Well climbing is a different skill altogether and tumbling specifically says you move at half speed unless you specifically have a special ability to move at full speed. Acrobatics still has to be part of another action as well so it's not unlimited in its mobility potential even if it is quite ridiculous.

The big thing is that these combination of changes allow a character to jump as a free action (or less if you can somehow move with a swift or immediate action). On one hand this is a nice way for monks to utilize both flurry of blows and their incredible movement increases. On the other hand, actually using this in a game seems like it would warrant a beating with the "munchkin correction stick."

Edit: In contribution to the original conversation I'd say your "normal maximum speed for the round" varies depending on what actions you take. If you full attack and take a five foot step then your normal maximum speed for the round is five feet. If you take a move action to move your speed then your max speed that round is 30 feet (give or take with modifiers for race, class, and various effects). That maximum is doubled with two move actions in a round and quadrupled on a run.
Technically the 3.5 rules only allow a jump on a turn when the character jumping takes at least a move action. That said, I'd think it's a case where common sense should override the rules. If you can jump on a charge action, why not on a run action? Now jumping as a free action or less, that's where the cheese begins. At the same time I look at a lot of casting classes with honestly ridiculous movement abilities and I think . . . maybe it's not so bad?

Cog
2011-02-09, 04:51 PM
"it is part of a move action" doesnt really leave any wiggle room, again from a RAW perspective.
That part by itself, if that were the only statement given, would not leave any room. However:

The "so it is part of a move action" is expressed as if it's a necessary part of those two conditions...
...The two conditions being "Action: none" and "A jump check is included in your movement." By the rules, "it is part of a move action" is valid solely because jumping is not an action of its own and is instead part of other movement. However, those two requirements (nonaction, part of another movement) can be satisfied without actually taking a move action, and therefore the secondary phrase ("so it is part of a move action") is invalid.

Not only does it say that jumping is a part of a move action, it even goes on to say that if you jump further than your movement, you have to spend yet another move action to complete the jump.
It certainly does; I made that point myself. There's no disagreement there.

Well climbing is a different skill altogether and tumbling specifically says you move at half speed unless you specifically have a special ability to move at full speed. Acrobatics still has to be part of another action as well so it's not unlimited in its mobility potential even if it is quite ridiculous.
And unless Pathfinder changed something from 3.5 in that regard, there's no limit other than the DM's patience or sense of timing to how many free actions you can take in a round. If the acrobatics check can be made as part of a free action, then what you're arguing is that you can, say, spout off a line of Shakespeare, call each word taking a free action to speak, and make a jump or tumble for each.

If Pathfinder did change something here, apologies for getting it muddled up.

The big thing is that these combination of changes allow a character to jump as a free action (or less if you can somehow move with a swift or immediate action).
Is a swift action less than a free action in PF?

MightyPirate
2011-02-09, 05:30 PM
And unless Pathfinder changed something from 3.5 in that regard, there's no limit other than the DM's patience or sense of timing to how many free actions you can take in a round. If the acrobatics check can be made as part of a free action, then what you're arguing is that you can, say, spout off a line of Shakespeare, call each word taking a free action to speak, and make a jump or tumble for each.I was just going off of the assumption that any sane gm would only allow movement as part of a free action once on any given turn, like a five foot step. I don't know of any gm that would let anything remotely like what you describe slide. However, one jump (per turn) as part of a free action? That's maybe not so broken.



Is a swift action less than a free action in PF?
Not really, sorry for the confusion. They take about the same time but you can specifically only take one swift action per turn as it takes more effort.

Cog
2011-02-09, 05:49 PM
I was just going off of the assumption that any sane gm would only allow movement as part of a free action once on any given turn, like a five foot step. I don't know of any gm that would let anything remotely like what you describe slide. However, one jump (per turn) as part of a free action? That's maybe not so broken.
Sure, that might be reasonable. The fact that you'd have to rule in a new limit implies that there's something unexpected going on, though. If it was intended to be a free action there'd probably be a limit given to replace the one they took out. I think not exceeding your usual movement would be the default, and I wouldn't try to spring this on a DM; bringing it to their attention and asking their thoughts doesn't sound cheesy to me, though. As for making it an immediate action... I'd expect to pay a feat or at least a skill trick for that.

archon_huskie
2011-02-09, 05:57 PM
you are running. you have 30 ft move.
There is a 5 ft pit.
you run 20ft. jump 5ft and then run 5 ft more. Right?

MightyPirate
2011-02-09, 06:23 PM
you are running. you have 30 ft move.
There is a 5 ft pit.
you run 20ft. jump 5ft and then run 5 ft more. Right?
You'd have to make your jump check and depending on the check you may make the jump, you may fail and fall, or you may even exceed the 5 feet need and if you like, jump not only over the pit but 5 feet further on the other side.

As far as the free action jump I actually have been speaking with my gm about it (although he hasn't actually answered me on it one way or the other.) I was just seeking more opinions. Looks like I got a good one too. Jump as an immediate action sounds like a pretty cool (if potentially unbalanced depending on wording) homebrew feat.

AslanCross
2011-02-09, 06:52 PM
Keep in mind that a "running jump" consists of moving at least 20 feet to begin with, so using the run action will not matter. A double move is plenty enough to cover the likely distance you're going to make anyway.