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View Full Version : [3.5]. Good Cleric Spells To Extend/Persist



DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 06:59 PM
So far all of the threads I've seen have given me the spells Divine Power, Lesser Mass Vigor, Divine Favor, and Sacred Vestment.

Also, the idea of Reaching Bull's Strength so that it can be Persisted has been presented. I'm going Sacred Exorcist, and I'm packing Craft Rod in later levels for NSticks.

I wanted to get a more experienced opinion of my options in order to figure out when I should take these feats.

ex cathedra
2011-02-09, 07:23 PM
Divine Power already provides +6 Strength, and Bull's Strength won't stack with that. While you won't be persisting it, Tyche's Touch proves a +4 bonus to the first saving throw you're forced to make, +3 to the second, +2 to the third, and +1 to the fourth. It lasts for 24 hours regardless of level, and it's only a second level spell. It's in Lost Empires of Faerun. Similarly, don't forget SpC's Superior Resistance.

All of the spells you've already listed are quite good, though. Ice Axe from the SpC is also excellent, especially if you have Power Attack. Sadly, the Bite of the Furry Object line is on all major spell lists aside from the Cleric's, so you can't just pick it up for free that easily.

Edit: Oh, and SpC's Conviction. Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) is also an excellent choice if you don't want to use standard armor.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 07:44 PM
What's BoED stand for again?

Amnestic
2011-02-09, 07:47 PM
What's BoED stand for again?

Book of Exalted Deeds.

shadowolf
2011-02-09, 07:49 PM
What's BoED stand for again?

This I can answer. Book of Exalted Deeds

Edit: apparently not quickly enough

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 07:50 PM
Okay cool, cause I've seen that armor come up a lot.

What does it do exactly?

Tvtyrant
2011-02-09, 07:52 PM
Take the Earth Domain and you can persist Iron Body, which makes you immune to crits, precision damage, sleep, mind control effects, your need to breathe, grants you DR 15/adamant and gives you +6 strength. You can literally become an Iron Golem, and if you combine it with an enlarging spell you can become the Iron Giant and still cast magic. Also it grants you club-fists that do 1d6, which the larger size will improve.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 07:55 PM
Take the Earth Domain and you can persist Iron Body, which makes you immune to crits, precision damage, sleep, mind control effects, your need to breathe, grants you DR 15/adamant and gives you +6 strength. You can literally become an Iron Golem, and if you combine it with an enlarging spell you can become the Iron Giant and still cast magic. Also it grants you club-fists that do 1d6, which the larger size will improve.

That is so fantastic... I'm sorry to say it's not an option though. I'm St. Cuthbert, and I go Pelor eventuallly... Maybe. So it's Strength/Destruction and then Strength/Healing for me.

Shame though. I'm an aasimar with Mechanus bloodline. The idea of me turning into a robot is SO fitting!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-09, 07:56 PM
If you can get the Destiny domain from Races of Destiny, its 9th level spell Choose Destiny is probably the absolute best spell in the entire game to persist.

(Greater) Luminous Armor lasts an hour/level, and gives you an AC bonus equivalent to breastplate or full plate but it has no armor check penalty, movement penalty, or max dex similar to Mage Armor. It sheds light as a Daylight spell of its level, and opponents who can see take a -4 penalty to hit you because it's so bright. You can even cast Magic Vestment on it to add an Enhancement bonus to your current Armor bonus, so it would eventually be like wearing +5 Full Plate with no max dex or movement penalty that causes opponents to take an extra -4 to hit you.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 07:59 PM
If you can get the Destiny domain from Races of Destiny, its 9th level spell Choose Destiny is probably the absolute best spell in the entire game to persist.

(Greater) Luminous Armor lasts an hour/level, and gives you an AC bonus equivalent to breastplate or full plate but it has no armor check penalty, movement penalty, or max dex similar to Mage Armor. It sheds light as a Daylight spell of its level, and opponents who can see take a -4 penalty to hit you because it's so bright. You can even cast Magic Vestment on it to add an Enhancement bonus to your current Armor bonus, so it would eventually be like wearing +5 Full Plate with no max dex or movement penalty that causes opponents to take an extra -4 to hit you.

Oh. Oh my. That. I'm taking that. What spell level? I'm going to buy enough components for my aasimar to bathe in it in preparation for that spell.

ex cathedra
2011-02-09, 07:59 PM
Okay cool, cause I've seen that armor come up a lot.

What does it do exactly?

It grants you the same AC as full plate and causes enemies attacking you in melee to take a decent attack penalty. Clerics can spontaneously cast it, too, since it's a sanctified spell. You take a small amount of strength damage when the rather long duration ends, but that's okay, just prepare something that removes ability damage.

Edit: Ninja'd. It's a fourth level spell, though.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-09, 08:19 PM
Luminous Armor is 2nd level, Greater is 4th level, you take a 'sacrifice' to Str (ability damage) of 1d2 or 1d3 for greater at the end of the spell's duration. You can get a Rod of Bodily Restoration from MIC for relatively cheap to fix the Str damage every time it happens. It would be worth using the 2nd level version to apply a Lesser Rod of Extend to it, which is a good investment anyway since it can be used on Magic Vestment and various other low level hour/level duration buffs.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-09, 09:20 PM
That is so fantastic... I'm sorry to say it's not an option though. I'm St. Cuthbert, and I go Pelor eventuallly... Maybe. So it's Strength/Destruction and then Strength/Healing for me.

Shame though. I'm an aasimar with Mechanus bloodline. The idea of me turning into a robot is SO fitting!

Did I mention it halves Fire and Acid damage and makes you immune to Lightning? Iron Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironBody.htm) is probably my favorite spell that I will never get to use...

herrhauptmann
2011-02-09, 10:52 PM
Holy transformation (SC)
Holy star gives you a circumstance bonus to AC, so it should stack with everything.

How/why are you CHANGING deities from Cuthbert to Pelor?

I have a followup for this.
If you DMM persist a spell to last a full day, can you then use your extend spell metamagic to make it last 2 days (double duration)?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-09, 11:05 PM
An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal.
Extend Spell would double the spell's normal duration, Persistent Spell would completely replace that with a 24-hour duration.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-09, 11:19 PM
Holy star gives you a circumstance bonus to AC, so it should stack with everything.
There's a better Holy Star spell, which isn't replaced by the one in Spell Compendium. It's the one which is granted by the Initiate of Mystra feat (Player's Guide to Faerūn). That will cost you another feat and require you to worship Mystra, but its circumstance bonus to AC is +10 instead of the +6 of the Spell Compendium version of Holy Star. The real benefit of Holy Star is that you become a spiffy blaster:

1d6 points per two caster levels (maximum 10d6)
90' range
uses your attack bonus, so you get iterative attacks!
Persist that and you can scoff at Warlocks.

Safety Sword
2011-02-09, 11:22 PM
Persist that and you can scoff at Warlocks.

If you weren't already. :smallamused:

herrhauptmann
2011-02-09, 11:42 PM
Extend Spell would double the spell's normal duration, Persistent Spell would completely replace that with a 24-hour duration.

Had to ask, after all, the locate city bomb requires a specific order of metamagics to be effective.
Next question, how does the Cindy build get 2 day buffs?

Curmudgeon
2011-02-10, 12:14 AM
If you weren't already. :smallamused:
Before you persisted Holy Star you had a bunch of spells, but the Warlock could keep blasting long after you exhausted your daily spell allotment. After persisting Holy Star things are different:
{table=head]Warlock | Cleric
Eldritch Blast | Persistent Holy Star
60' range | 90' range
9d6 maximum damage | 10d6 maximum damage
1 per round (standard action) | up to 4 per round (based on AB)[/table]
... and you've still got all but one of your Cleric spells available!

Safety Sword
2011-02-10, 12:19 AM
Before you persisted Holy Star you had a bunch of spells, but the Warlock could keep blasting long after you exhausted your daily spell allotment. After persisting Holy Star things are different:
{table=head]Warlock | Cleric
Eldritch Blast | Persistent Holy Star
60' range | 90' range
9d6 maximum damage | 10d6 maximum damage
1 per round (standard action) | up to 4 per round (based on AB)[/table]
... and you've still got all but one of your Cleric spells available!

Yeah, but they're a warlock... I mean... eww.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-10, 12:36 AM
Before you persisted Holy Star you had a bunch of spells, but the Warlock could keep blasting long after you exhausted your daily spell allotment. After persisting Holy Star things are different:
{table=head]Warlock | Cleric
Eldritch Blast | Persistent Holy Star
60' range | 90' range
9d6 maximum damage | 10d6 maximum damage
1 per round (standard action) | up to 4 per round (based on AB)[/table]
... and you've still got all but one of your Cleric spells available!

Knew it seemed good, hadn't realized it was THAT good.
edit: Holy star is 1d6/2 CL, maxing out at 10d6. How does the warlocks eldritch blast scale (besides topping out at 9d6)?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-10, 12:41 AM
Actually, Holy Star only attacks 1/round, but you get to pick a target as a free action and it attacks without any additional effort on your part. Plus you can have multiple Persistent Holy Star spells active at once, so you could have a dozen such fire rays activating every round. Although you didn't take into account that a Warlock could have a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power for +2d6 EB damage, and he could be using Eldritch Spear or Eldritch Chain, and his EB should be dealing two negative levels per hit at that level.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-10, 02:06 AM
There's a better Holy Star spell, which isn't replaced by the one in Spell Compendium. It's the one which is granted by the Initiate of Mystra feat (Player's Guide to Faerūn).

Where are you getting that that isn't replaced by the SpC version? SpC comes later, and has the authority to change spell lists on reprinted spells.

Zangano Athyran
2011-02-10, 02:11 AM
Persisted Quickened Implosion if you hate the world.:smallfurious:

Curmudgeon
2011-02-10, 04:13 AM
Actually, Holy Star only attacks 1/round, but you get to pick a target as a free action and it attacks without any additional effort on your part.
I'm not getting that from the spell description.
This attack uses your attack bonus and deals fire damage equal to 1d6 points per two caster levels (maximum 10d6). Note it doesn't say "at your base attack bonus". Your attack bonus for ranged attacks is a combination of BAB + DEX mod + size mod + other mods, including the cumulative -5 modifier for interative attacks. An attack using your attack bonus follows the standard rules for attacks, and (of course) uses your actions.

Where are you getting that that isn't replaced by the SpC version? SpC comes later, and has the authority to change spell lists on reprinted spells.
Because the restricted access Holy Star in Player's Guide to Faerūn is a listed benefit of the Initiate of Mystra feat. We'd need a errata update for the feat to specify that it uses the regular Cleric spell list Holy Star spell instead, and there's no such update.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-10, 10:41 AM
How/why are you CHANGING deities from Cuthbert to Pelor?
)?

It's just an idea I've been toying with. Numerous mechanical and developmental advantages.

EDIT: Note "toying with". I dunno if this is something I really want yet. The idea of being Axiom, Law Incarnate, Wrath Of Mechanus is REALLY appealing.

How: Talked to my DM. Haha, I suppose that's how most things are resolved, eh? Anywho, Pelor is his campaign's main deity, and he's very lenient on conversion, even for clerics. I might suggest an atonement spell.

Why: The Healing domain is far superior to Destruction after a certain point. In essence, I get the Augment Healing feat twice for once. Also, Luminous Armor, my level of Sacred Exorcist, and the fact that I hope to be packing 18 turn attempts a day all points away from being a Judge type figure and more towards a protecting beacon of positive energy aka the sun.

From a roleplaying standpoint, my character is part Inevitable, so he's very fire and brimstone literal. I like playing LG characters, but what I truly enjoy is watching them earn that rank. A character who is LG for a reason is more realistic and less cliche than one that just started that way.

Optimist Prime being the exception of course.

So, I figured giving up my passion for vengeance and punishment to embrace a more Paladinesque outlook would be more significant if I worshipped a different deity. I dunno, I just think conversions are good development points.

Oh, and Holy Star looks flipping sweet. Thanks guys!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-10, 01:55 PM
I'm not getting that from the spell description. Note it doesn't say "at your base attack bonus". Your attack bonus for ranged attacks is a combination of BAB + DEX mod + size mod + other mods, including the cumulative -5 modifier for interative attacks. An attack using your attack bonus follows the standard rules for attacks, and (of course) uses your actions.


Fire Bolt: A holy star lashes out with
a beam of energy as a ranged touch
attack against a creature (you choose
the target) up to 90 feet away (no range
increment). This attack uses your attack
bonus and deals fire damage equal to
1d6 points per two caster levels (maximum
10d6).
It doesn't mention anything about it full attacking. It 'lashes out with a beam of energy' which would imply a singular attack. Furthermore, 'This attack uses your attack bonus' is definitely not 'these attacks' so it does indeed make a single attack. It uses your total attack bonus to ranged attacks, but makes no mention of a high BAB granting extra attacks. You may want it to make additional attacks for your high BAB, but the text does not imply this in any way, and it actually uses language to the contrary.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-10, 02:09 PM
Because the restricted access Holy Star in Player's Guide to Faerūn is a listed benefit of the Initiate of Mystra feat. We'd need a errata update for the feat to specify that it uses the regular Cleric spell list Holy Star spell instead, and there's no such update.

So you argue that the PGtF statement "Only clerics of Mystra can cast Holy Star" is such an absolute rule that SpC printing "Holy Star" on the general cleric list does not supersede it?

All I can say is that I believe the SpC, being a later book and explicitly stating it "revises" old spells, supersedes it. The feat is weakened by the SpC without any need for errata.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-10, 02:12 PM
It doesn't mention anything about it full attacking.
Holy Star doesn't need to mention full attacks because the normal rules for making your attacks covers this capability. You can choose to activate Fire Bolt as a free action, and it uses your attack bonus each time (with increasing penalties for iterative attacks, as usual). The spell says that designating which function of Holy Star to activate is a free action, but it does not say that using Fire Bolt is a free action. Rather, it uses your attack bonus and follows the standard attack rules.

So you argue that the PGtF statement "Only clerics of Mystra can cast Holy Star" is such an absolute rule that SpC printing "Holy Star" on the general cleric list does not supersede it?
There's no superseding going on because the PGtF Holy Star is a benefit of the Initiate of Mystra Feat. That spell is slightly better than the one in Spell Compendium, which makes sense because it requires an additional feat to obtain. It remains true that "only Mystra’s clerics can cast holy star" when they're referring to the Initiate of Mystra 7 spell rather than the Cleric 7 spell. Being able to add that Holy Star to your spell list is a specific benefit of the Initiate of Mystra Feat, which would be meaningless if they were referring to a spell on the regular Cleric spell list.

Again, the update rules replace items in the same categories and with the same name. The Initiate of Mystra feat has never been updated, so its Holy Star is always the Initiate of Mystra 7 spell.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-10, 02:31 PM
Holy Star doesn't need to mention full attacks because the normal rules for making your attacks covers this capability. You can choose to activate Fire Bolt as a free action, and it uses your attack bonus each time (with increasing penalties for iterative attacks, as usual). The spell says that designating which function of Holy Star to activate is a free action, but it does not say that using Fire Bolt is a free action. Rather, it uses your attack bonus and follows the standard attack rules.

If that's the case, then address why the language of the spell implies repeatedly that it makes one single attack.

An arcane spellcaster uses his attack bonus when casting Enervation, but he doesn't get to fire multiple rays for having a +6 BAB. It doesn't specify that, but it doesn't need to. Iterative attacks are a benefit of a full attack action, nothing else ever gains iterative attacks from a high BAB unless it specifically says that it does. Holy Star makes no mention of it, there is no full attack action occurring, so it does not get iterative attacks.


There's no superseding going on because the PGtF Holy Star is a benefit of the Initiate of Mystra Feat. That spell is slightly better than the one in Spell Compendium, which makes sense because it requires an additional feat to obtain. It remains true that "only Mystra’s clerics can cast holy star" when they're referring to the Initiate of Mystra 7 spell rather than the Cleric 7 spell. Being able to add that Holy Star to your spell list is a specific benefit of the Initiate of Mystra Feat, which would be meaningless if they were referring to a spell on the regular Cleric spell list.

Again, the update rules replace items in the same categories and with the same name. The Initiate of Mystra feat has never been updated, so its Holy Star is always the Initiate of Mystra 7 spell.

The PGtF version has an entry of Level: Initiate of Mystra 7. The SpC version has an entry of Level: Cleric 7. Both spells have the same name, the SpC version is an update. The Initiate of Mystra feat grants you the current version of Holy Star, which is the one found in SpC. Ignoring updates and errata in order to make your character more powerful is cheating. It is just as much cheating as lying about your ability score rolls, or summoning a monster from the Summon Monster V list but marking Summon Monster III off your prepared spells, or not marking off your gold when you buy an item so you'll have more money for more items, etc. Cheating is cheating, and using an old version of a spell because it's more powerful, regardless of what excuses you can come up with, is still cheating.

Telonius
2011-02-10, 02:31 PM
With metamagic reducing shenanigans, Death Ward is a nice one to persist. Total immunity to some of the nastiest SoD's and immunity to negative energy damage (nastiness like Energy Drain, Enervation, and a lot of bad stuff that Undead can do to you) can be really nice.

navar100
2011-02-10, 02:36 PM
Extend Heroes' Feast for a 24 hour breakfast of champions.
Extend Energy Immunity for 48 hour energy protection.
Persistent Holy Aura for great party buffness.
Persistent (Greater) Aspect of the Deity for great personal buffness.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-10, 02:58 PM
If that's the case, then address why the language of the spell implies repeatedly that it makes one single attack.

An arcane spellcaster uses his attack bonus when casting Enervation, but he doesn't get to fire multiple rays for having a +6 BAB. It doesn't specify that, but it doesn't need to. Iterative attacks are a benefit of a full attack action, nothing else ever gains iterative attacks from a high BAB unless it specifically says that it does. Holy Star makes no mention of it, there is no full attack action occurring, so it does not get iterative attacks.

I agree with this - full attacks are the only way to get your iteratves, barring exceptional abilities like pounce. I don't see how Holy Star makes that kind of exception.


The PGtF version has an entry of Level: Initiate of Mystra 7. The SpC version has an entry of Level: Cleric 7. Both spells have the same name, the SpC version is an update. The Initiate of Mystra feat grants you the current version of Holy Star, which is the one found in SpC.

This is my line of argument as well. I don't see why PGtF Holy Star's attachment to a feat would make it an exception to the spell replacement rule. Reprints are perfectly capable of altering previous material. I'm pretty sure there's a Faerun PrC somewhere out there that still gets Darkbolt as a level 2 spell.


Ignoring updates and errata in order to make your character more powerful is cheating. It is just as much cheating as lying about your ability score rolls, or summoning a monster from the Summon Monster V list but marking Summon Monster III off your prepared spells, or not marking off your gold when you buy an item so you'll have more money for more items, etc. Cheating is cheating, and using an old version of a spell because it's more powerful, regardless of what excuses you can come up with, is still cheating.

Now this is a bit far. I would think he was mistaken long before I would accuse him of cheating.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-10, 03:57 PM
An arcane spellcaster uses his attack bonus when casting Enervation, but he doesn't get to fire multiple rays for having a +6 BAB.
That's correct, but because the attack is part of the standard action of casting that spell; that action imposes the limitation. Fire Bolt is an attack that may be activated as a free action on your turn while Holy Star lasts. The spell does not stipulate one use per turn, and such actions may normally be used freely until your DM cuts you off. Instead Fire Bolt uses your attack bonus, and the normal rules for making attacks grant extra attacks with the full attack action if your BAB is high enough.

The PGtF version has an entry of Level: Initiate of Mystra 7. The SpC version has an entry of Level: Cleric 7. Both spells have the same name, the SpC version is an update. The Initiate of Mystra feat grants you the current version of Holy Star, which is the one found in SpC.
That's inconsistent with the rules in Player's Guide to Faerūn:
A unique characteristic that distinguishes at least some clerics from others is the availability of deity-specific spells—spells that only certain deities grant. Only Cyric grants his clerics the skull of secrets spell, for example, and only Mystra’s clerics can cast holy star. A character can achieve this distinction by taking an initiate feat, such as Initiate of Cyric or Initiate of Mystra, which is available only to clerics of the specified deity. The Holy Star in Spell Compendium does not fit that description (provided only with an initiate feat). The rules in PGtF place it in a separate category.

Ignoring updates and errata in order to make your character more powerful is cheating.
I believe that's the first time anyone has ever accused me of ignoring a D&D rule. (I try to pay strict attention to the specifics of all the rules, including listing Monk proficiency with unarmed strikes as a house rule.) I've checked the Player's Guide to Faerūn Errata, and the Initiate of Mystra feat has not been updated. Since that feat has not been updated, it must continue to operate as specified under the RAW. That includes retaining the Holy Star spell in PGtF as a spell that only Mystra’s clerics can cast.