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KillianHawkeye
2011-02-09, 09:06 PM
One of my players wants to make a character who primarily attacks with a shield. I noticed that shield bash wasn't on the weapons table in the PHB, so is it possible to bash with a normal shield? I know about the spiked shield in AV, and there's a few Fighter powers that push with a shield after an attack with a weapon, but I'm curious what it takes to bash with a regular shield as your primary attack form.

EDIT: The campaign is set in Dark Sun. All pre-Essentials sources are allowed.

Mando Knight
2011-02-09, 09:20 PM
Unless so allowed by a power (or it has a spike), a shield bash would be just an attack with an improvised weapon (the shield). I repeat: a shield is not a weapon, and so its use as such is an improvised weapon, no more effective than a chair. There are tricks for using shields offensively, but those are mostly covered by feats and powers... most of which are available to Fighters.

The player might complain about this. Let him. Then ask him how he would fight armored warriors by using a shield instead of a hammer, sword, axe, or other weapon.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-09, 09:21 PM
Also I believe there's a 4e prestige path based entirely on using two shields.

Mando Knight
2011-02-09, 09:33 PM
Also I believe there's a 4e prestige path based entirely on using two shields.

Oh, yeah... the Snapping Tetsudo. There are enough Fighter powers to make a Shield fighter viable... if you have a Spiked Shield to use with your at-wills. You'd need both Martial Powers and access to Dragons 382 and 385, though.

Vknight
2011-02-09, 09:39 PM
That class is so annoying and silly that it almost never see the light of day though

Mando Knight
2011-02-09, 09:47 PM
The Fighter? Or the Snapping Tetsudo? The latter I'll give you (though it's a Paragon Path, not a Class), but it's pretty much exactly what the OP's looking for.

NMBLNG
2011-02-09, 11:10 PM
I assume you're the DM.

You could house rule the spiked shield to be a normal weapon, and then have the player take either fighter or ranger. The fighter gets abilities that incorporate a shield, while both have attacks that use 2 weapons.

Though the fighter method would probably work the best.

Also, not that there is a difference between 'using your shield to attack' and 'actually dealing damage with your shield'. Some abilities, such as Tide of Iron (I think) deal weapon damage, but can easily be flavored to be a simple shield bash.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-09, 11:14 PM
I assume you're the DM.

I am.


You could house rule the spiked shield to be a normal weapon

It already is a weapon. My question was about using a normal shield as a weapon. Looks like Mando Knight's improvised weapon suggestion is the most accurate.

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 11:17 PM
One good way to do it if you do not like the various shield weapons is to go arena fighter. Arena fighters have an ability (among others) to treat all improvised weapons as +2 prof d8 damage weapons. Add an assassin or monk multiclass for a ki focus (to enhance your weapons) and you have a fair build. Inherent bonuses work as well.

mobdrazhar
2011-02-09, 11:17 PM
As Mando also suggested, if he is ok with being a fighter there are fighter powers that lets him use his shield offesively

Reverent-One
2011-02-09, 11:19 PM
Wait, are people hating on the Snapping Testudo? Inconceivable! Seriously though, I love that Paragon Path so much.

Also in dragon 385 are a number of magic items that are shields that count as weapons, including one as low as level 1.

Mando Knight
2011-02-09, 11:21 PM
One good way to do it if you do not like the various shield weapons is to go arena fighter. Arena fighters have an ability (among others) to treat all improvised weapons as +2 prof d8 damage weapons.
This is true... and it is a Dark Sun campaign. Monk multiclass for the ki focus could also make sense... if he wants to smash his shield into a second opponent after he slaps the first.

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 11:24 PM
This is true... and it is a Dark Sun campaign. Monk multiclass for the ki focus could also make sense... if he wants to smash his shield into a second opponent after he slaps the first.

You will be a defensive force. Just be sure to grab shield push.

tenshiakodo
2011-02-09, 11:32 PM
I'm with Reverent One, I actually PLAY a Snapping Tetsudo!

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 11:44 PM
Look at your Dark Sun Campaign Setting, pg. 86. The Arena Fighter's Arena Training gives you a +2 proficiency bonus with all improvised weapon (which a shield would be), and gives them 1d8 damage. Now use the shield with any power (including ones that let you do a secondary shield bash after your normal attack :smalltongue:). There you go.

You have been ninjad! Or swordsaged. Wait what do we use for 4e?

I agree though great choice. Pick a defensive weapon for your other hand as an arena weapon for more AC.

RTGoodman
2011-02-09, 11:45 PM
You have been ninjad! Or swordsaged. Wait what do we use for 4e?

Haha, yeah, I noticed just now and ninja'd you in deleting my original post! :smallbiggrin:

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 11:46 PM
Haha, yeah, I noticed just now and ninja'd you in deleting my original post! :smallbiggrin:

ooo sneaky:smallbiggrin:.

So Avengered? hmm which class to choose.

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 12:28 AM
ooo sneaky:smallbiggrin:.

So Avengered? hmm which class to choose.

The monk makes a pretty good ninja in 4e.

Ertwin
2011-02-10, 12:32 AM
You have been ninjad! Or swordsaged. Wait what do we use for 4e?

for hilarity's sake, call it Monked :smallbiggrin:

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 12:32 AM
You have been monked? hmm not too bad we shall see.

tenshiakodo
2011-02-10, 03:48 AM
You've been Hexbladed!

WitchSlayer
2011-02-10, 04:28 AM
Snapping Tetsudo

Throwing shield

YOU... YOU... DOUBLE CAPTAIN AMERICA.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 02:55 PM
farbound spell blade spiked shield works too.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 03:01 PM
Since it's Dark Sun, have him pick up Weapon Proficency (Turtle Shell) at first opportunity and make his At-Wills Shield Feint and Tide of Iron. Then Snapping Testudo at Paragon.

Also, the only reason people pick on Snapping Testudo is because it is equal parts ridiculous and surprisingly optimal.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 03:10 PM
Since it's Dark Sun, have him pick up Weapon Proficency (Turtle Shell) at first opportunity and make his At-Wills Shield Feint and Tide of Iron. Then Snapping Testudo at Paragon.

Also, the only reason people pick on Snapping Testudo is because it is equal parts ridiculous and surprisingly optimal.

The places I look often say it is alright power wise (definitely not great)though I have seen much worse. People pick on it because it is ridiculous and it is unusable by RAW and so technically you have to house rule in order to use the class as it does not make an exception anywhere in the paragon path that offsets the rule that you cannot wield two shields.

My favorite combo is arena fighter with gauntlet axe as an arena weapon and turtle shell/spiked shield (they are the same exact thing) with the rhythm blade enhancement. Do not take proficiency with the spiked shield in this case. Since your an arena fighter your damage actually improves with the spiked shield from a d6-d8. You actually wield it better being not proficient with this weapon.

Reverent-One
2011-02-10, 08:27 PM
The places I look often say it is alright power wise (definitely not great)though I have seen much worse. People pick on it because it is ridiculous and it is unusable by RAW and so technically you have to house rule in order to use the class as it does not make an exception anywhere in the paragon path that offsets the rule that you cannot wield two shields.

Wait, where is that rule?

Mando Knight
2011-02-10, 08:37 PM
Do not take proficiency with the spiked shield in this case. Since your an arena fighter your damage actually improves with the spiked shield from a d6-d8. You actually wield it better being not proficient with this weapon.

It's not an improvised weapon if it's a Spiked Shield (and you shouldn't get the enchantment bonus if you do treat it as such, in my opinion). That's just munchkinery of the sort that is defeated by a DM looking at you funny and saying "no."

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 10:04 PM
It's not an improvised weapon if it's a Spiked Shield (and you shouldn't get the enchantment bonus if you do treat it as such, in my opinion). That's just munchkinery of the sort that is defeated by a DM looking at you funny and saying "no."

You missed the arena fighter part or you do not know the abilities of the arena fighter.

Arena fighters get many benefits but for this discussion this is what is important

1) Arena fighters treat all weapons they are NOT proficient with as improvised weapons.

2) Spiked shield is an exotic weapon so if you do not spend a feat (or an arena weapon slot) it is an improvised weapon for an arena fighter.

3) Arena fighters treat all improvised weapons as +2 proficiency 1d8 damage weapons.

4) Since my spiked shield is an improvised weapon it nows has those stats and is better for it.

This is not a munchkin move it is by the book and intended.



To Reverent-One


The rule for no two shields is found on page 10 of the Adventurer's vault in the description of spiked shields

"Although a character can not use two shields at the same time, a character wielding a spiked shield enchanted as a weapon can employ arm slot items such as bracers"

I think what they mean to say is that you get no benefit from wearing a second shield and that a shield enchanted as a weapon still allows you to use magical arm slot items. Unfortunately that is not what it actually says and since there is no mention of an exception for the paragon path so it is technically RAW illegal. Of course any DM that is not a robot would allow this work so it is not a practical concern just a strict RAW curiosity.

Reverent-One
2011-02-10, 10:24 PM
To Reverent-One


The rule for no two shields is found on page 10 of the Adventurer's vault in the description of spiked shields

"Although a character can not use two shields at the same time, a character wielding a spiked shield enchanted as a weapon can employ arm slot items such as bracers"

I think what they mean to say is that you get no benefit from wearing a second shield and that a shield enchanted as a weapon still allows you to use magical arm slot items. Unfortunately that is not what it actually says and since there is no mention of an exception for the paragon path so it is technically RAW illegal. Of course any DM that is not a robot would allow this work so it is not a practical concern just a strict RAW curiosity.

Eh, they say "use", not "wield", if we're going to be picky about it, then those aren't the same thing.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 10:31 PM
Eh, they say "use", not "wield", if we're going to be picky about it, then those aren't the same thing.

So can you wield something without using it?

Reverent-One
2011-02-10, 10:37 PM
So can you wield something without using it?

If we're being that picky about wording, definitely. Just because you can carry something doesn't mean one can or has to use it. And even without splitting hairs about wording, isn't that why some implement users carry around a second implement in their off-hand that may not have a good enchantment bonus but has a nice ability? So they can apply the property while using the better enhancement.

Mando Knight
2011-02-10, 10:46 PM
1) Arena fighters treat all weapons they are NOT proficient with as improvised weapons.

This is the line I missed, which is the important one.

Also, Reverent-One, you have to be careful with that statement. The implement's powers and properties are generally why it's picked, but mostly only ones that aren't triggered off of attacks are used for off-hand implements, as you still need to pick the implement you use (and thus its bonuses and properties, etc.) for each individual attack.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 10:55 PM
If we're being that picky about wording, definitely. Just because you can carry something doesn't mean one can or has to use it. And even without splitting hairs about wording, isn't that why some implement users carry around a second implement in their off-hand that may not have a good enchantment bonus but has a nice ability? So they can apply the property while using the better enhancement.

The implement thing only works if the power does not say "when you make an attack with this implement". A lot of properties use that now. And it is not just implements that do that weapons do too. Heck I like using rhythm blade spiked shields in my off hand for that particular reason. Still even if you are wielding a weapon for a property you are certainly using it.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 09:00 AM
The implement thing only works if the power does not say "when you make an attack with this implement". A lot of properties use that now. And it is not just implements that do that weapons do too. Heck I like using rhythm blade spiked shields in my off hand for that particular reason. Still even if you are wielding a weapon for a property you are certainly using it.

However, a Snapping Testudo doesn't need to make use of properties of each shield, so they're not using both shields in that sense either.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 02:30 PM
However, a Snapping Testudo doesn't need to make use of properties of each shield, so they're not using both shields in that sense either.

You are using it it to get the benefits of the paragon path.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 02:33 PM
You are using it it to get the benefits of the paragon path.

...So because your character is a member of a certain Paragon path, a metagame construct, he is not capable of carrying two shields, but one that is not a member of said metagame construct can? This is rivaling "Healing by drowning" in ridiculousness.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 02:45 PM
...So because your character is a member of a certain Paragon path, a metagame construct, he is not capable of carrying two shields, but one that is not a member of said metagame construct can? This is rivaling "Healing by drowning" in ridiculousness.

This is a strict RAW argument of course it is dumb. I said as much before it started. Somebody posted about the ridiculousness of this path and I mentioned that this is one reason why people think the path is ridiculous (because they forgot to add something in or that they did not realize how broad of a statement they made in the spiked shield description). I of course would allow the path to work as intended as I believe that little blurb about two shields is to let us know that you normally get no extra benefit from wielding two shields.

Any class can carry two shields but you cannot wield them by RAW since wielding would be using those shields. They both give you a shield bonus for instance, they just don't stack with each other.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 02:48 PM
I of course would allow the path to work as intended as I believe that little blurb about two shields is to let us know that you normally get no extra benefit from wielding two shields.

Given that's exactly what the blurb tells us, that's not much of a leap.




Any class can carry two shields but you cannot wield them by RAW since wielding would be using those shields. They both give you a shield bonus for instance, they just don't stack with each other.

That requires wielding to be different from carrying, and there's nothing saying that's the case.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 03:00 PM
Given that's exactly what the blurb tells us, that's not much of a leap.




That requires wielding to be different from carrying, and there's nothing saying that's the case.

There is a difference between carrying and wielding in the game it came up in swordmage discussions. In order for the swordmage to get his AC bonus he needs to wield a blade. Some players tried to reason that since you can hold a greatsword in one hand that it was enough to get the better AC bonus (for having nothing in one hand). It does not work however since you actually need to wield a weapon to get the bonus and you cannot wield a greatsword in one hand (without an epic destiny anyway).

You can hold or carry around your extra shield and that is alright even by RAW. Once you equip that shield and wielding it you are now using the shield. It now gives you a shield bonus and if you are already wielding a shield they would not stack, but you are certainly using the item. Now the rules say you can't do that so it is a no go from a RAW standpoint.

Now if you please can we just let this thread continue. This is just an intellectual curiosity that we both would agree that no sane DM would ever have a problem with (as in they would allow snapping testudo to work as intended) so there is no real problem.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 03:04 PM
There is a difference between carrying and wielding in the game it came up in swordmage discussions. In order for the swordmage to get his AC bonus he needs to wield a blade. Some players tried to reason that since you can hold a greatsword in one hand that it was enough to get the better AC bonus (for having nothing in one hand). It does not work however since you actually need to wield a weapon to get the bonus and you cannot wield a greatsword in one hand (without an epic destiny anyway).

Fair enough.


You can hold or carry around your extra shield and that is alright even by RAW. Once you equip that shield and wielding it you are now using the shield. It now gives you a shield bonus and if you are already wielding a shield they would not stack, but you are certainly using the item. Now the rules say you can't do that so it is a no go from a RAW standpoint.

Except since the second shield doesn't give you any bonus, you're not actually using it. It's simply sitting on one arm.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 03:56 PM
Fair enough.



Except since the second shield doesn't give you any bonus, you're not actually using it. It's simply sitting on one arm.

It is giving you a bonus. It just does not stack. That is different.

It is similar to me using the brawler guard feat (which gives you a +1 shield bonus for using a weapon and keeping one hand free) with a spiked shield enchanted with the shielding blade enchantment (gives the wielder a +1 shield bonus to AC) and nothing in the other hand. In this case both the feat, the enchantment, and the shield are giving me a shield bonus but none of them stack. This of course would be a stupid thing to do but it is legal to do.

If you equip two shields they both will provide a shield bonus (as that is what happens when you equip a shield) they just won't stack.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 04:00 PM
It is giving you a bonus. It just does not stack. That is different.

It is similar to me using the brawler guard feat (which gives you a +1 shield bonus for using a weapon and keeping one hand free) with a spiked shield enchanted with the shielding blade enchantment (gives the wielder a +1 shield bonus to AC) and nothing in the other hand. In this case both the feat, the enchantment, and the shield are giving me a shield bonus but none of them stack. This of course would be a stupid thing to do but it is legal to do.

If you equip two shields they both will provide a shield bonus (as that is what happens when you equip a shield) they just won't stack.

Which means you're not using the second shield and it's bonus.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 04:48 PM
Which means you're not using the second shield and it's bonus.

No you are using it and getting a bonus but it just isn't doing you any good.

Like my shielded blade spiked shield. The enchantment is giving me a +1 shield bonus (which I am using) it just isn't doing me any good since it overlaps with the shield bonus from the shield itself.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 04:52 PM
No you are using it and getting a bonus but it just isn't doing you any good.

Like my shielded blade spiked shield. The enchantment is giving me a +1 shield bonus (which I am using) it just isn't doing me any good since it overlaps with the shield bonus from the shield itself.

But if it's having no effect on you, how are you using it? This train of thought brings up another possibility with regards to the blurb in AV, perhaps that section was merely being descriptive and repeating the rules that A) you can't have more than one arms slot magic item and B) shield bonus' don't stack, not actually providing any new rules.

Jaidu
2011-02-11, 04:56 PM
If you have a spiked shield rhythm blade in one hand, a heavy shield in the other, and the Snapping Testudo paragon path, would you be getting a +4 shield bonus? +2 from the heavy shield, +1 from the paragon path, +1 from the rhythm blade. As far as I can tell, you should, because the rhythm blade specifically increases your shield bonus by one instead of just giving a +1 shield bonus, but the character builder was showing this as a +3. Am I missing something or is the CB?

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 04:58 PM
But if it's having no effect on you, how are you using it? This train of thought brings up another possibility with regards to the blurb in AV, perhaps that section was merely being descriptive and repeating the rules that A) you can't have more than one arms slot magic item and B) shield bonus' don't stack, not actually providing any new rules.

If you are wielding a shield you are using it, even if it provides you with no noticeable benefit.

If you recall, your second statement is what I said I think they were trying to say. As in rules as intended. Unfortunately they wrote a statement that is more global and far reaching. They should have been more specific to avoid stupid situations like this. This is also why nobody plays a true 100% RAW D&D game. It is obvious they intended this to work and it should be allowed to work regardless of the RAW.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 05:03 PM
If you are wielding a shield you are using it, even if it provides you with no noticeable benefit.

Again, with no effect on your character, how is it in use? What are you basing the idea that it is in use on?


If you recall, your second statement is what I said I think they were trying to say. As in rules as intended. Unfortunately they wrote a statement that is more global and far reaching. They should have been more specific to avoid stupid situations like this. This is also why nobody plays a true 100% RAW D&D game. It is obvious they intended this to work and it should be allowed to work regardless of the RAW.

And I'm saying that there is still no restriction on wielding two shields by RAW, merely in using them.

Mando Knight
2011-02-11, 05:12 PM
If you have a spiked shield rhythm blade in one hand, a heavy shield in the other, and the Snapping Testudo paragon path, would you be getting a +4 shield bonus? +2 from the heavy shield, +1 from the paragon path, +1 from the rhythm blade. As far as I can tell, you should, because the rhythm blade specifically increases your shield bonus by one instead of just giving a +1 shield bonus, but the character builder was showing this as a +3. Am I missing something or is the CB?

A Rhythm Blade only increases your shield bonus if held in the off-hand. Is the Spiked Shield set as your off-hand item or your main hand item? (The CB might not allow you to use a Heavy Shield as a main-hand item...)

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 05:14 PM
Again, with no effect on your character, how is it in use? What are you basing the idea that it is in use on?



And I'm saying that there is still no restriction on wielding two shields by RAW, merely in using them.

The simplest answer I can give you is that just because it has no noticeable benefit does not mean that you are not using the item in question. If I have a level 4 character with a +1 weapon and I am using the inherent bonus rules I am using the bonus from both sources but they do not stack. Yes that makes my magical weapon give me no benefit but I am still using it (in fact the character builder shows this as it gives you both bonuses and then says the inherent bonus does not stack with the enhancement bonus). If you cannot understand the difference between using an item and having it give you no benefit, and not using an item at all then I cannot help you with the rules.

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 05:18 PM
The simplest answer I can give you is that just because it has no noticeable benefit does not mean that you are not using the item in question. If I have a level 4 character with a +1 weapon and I am using the inherent bonus rules I am using the bonus from both sources but they do not stack. Yes that makes my magical weapon give me no benefit but I am still using it (in fact the character builder shows this as it gives you both bonuses and then says the inherent bonus does not stack with the enhancement bonus). If you cannot understand the difference between using an item and having it give you no benefit, and not using an item at all then I cannot help you with the rules.

If you can show where it the rules it explains what "using" an item entails and that it includes when the item has no actual effect due to stacking rules, go ahead. If the rules don't say that anywhere, then the idea that an item is still being "used" when it has no effect is your personal interpertation, not RAW.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-11, 05:23 PM
Just out of curiosity, where is this Snapping Tetsudo located at?

Reverent-One
2011-02-11, 05:27 PM
Just out of curiosity, where is this Snapping Tetsudo located at?

Dragon 385.

Mando Knight
2011-02-11, 05:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, where is this Snapping Tetsudo located at?

Dragon #385.

Jaidu
2011-02-11, 05:33 PM
A Rhythm Blade only increases your shield bonus if held in the off-hand. Is the Spiked Shield set as your off-hand item or your main hand item? (The CB might not allow you to use a Heavy Shield as a main-hand item...)

It does let you use the heavy shield as a main hand item, and applies the +2 normally if I do so. I am tempted to chalk it up as a bug in the CB, considering that it's a rather strange combination.