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Gnoman
2011-02-10, 08:03 AM
In my campaign, all clerics must have a god (none of that abstract powers nonsense.) Right now, there is a solid chance that one or all PC-available gods will be killed or sealed away by an impenetrable barrier. If this happens, clerics would be rather badly hurt. I've already decided that only the knowledge of spells is provided by the diety in question, with the cleric's faith powering it. Thus, any spell the cleric could already access would remain available. The trouble comes in when a new spell level becomes usable. Any suggestions on how to aquire those spells after your god died?

dsmiles
2011-02-10, 08:07 AM
In the Realms, following Bane's (temporary) demise, I believe, IIRC, that Cyric was granting the Baneites' spells. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. The way I would do it would be to have the usurper of that deity's domains grant the spells, gradually converting the priests of the fallen deity to his/her own teachings.

Angry Bob
2011-02-10, 08:18 AM
A close ally of the god could step into the dead god's place. On the other hand, there's a feat in Lost Empires of Faerun that lets you still receive spells from dead gods.

I don't know what you were looking for, but that's what comes off the top of my head.

Saintheart
2011-02-10, 08:19 AM
I seem to remember Lost Empires of Faerun has some material on followers of dead gods like Amaunator; maybe you can pattern the effects after that?

Eldan
2011-02-10, 08:19 AM
Well, if it's about knowledge, there's still a few ways, really:
Mentors: proxies, outsiders and senior clerics of the same faith should all be able to cast these higher level spells. Perhaps you can ask for tutoring.
There's also ancient libraries and inscriptions: perhaps someone wrote those spells down somewhere. That's more of a wizardly way, though, really.

Darrin
2011-02-10, 08:31 AM
Any suggestions on how to aquire those spells after your god died?

...why do I suddenly see all the Ur-Priests in your campaign world smiling smugly over in a dark corner, trying to stifle fits of maniacal laughter or loud cackling rants of "I TOLD YOU SO!"...?

Gnoman
2011-02-10, 08:31 AM
I don't have any Realms stuff. I'm just looking for ideas here.

Amnestic
2011-02-10, 08:35 AM
Waukeen (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Waukeen) (another FR god. Yay!) was imprisoned at one point. She was covered for by another deity until she got out, so I assume you could just do that.

Gnoman
2011-02-10, 08:39 AM
That would work, as long as the deicide isn't pantheoncide.

Engine
2011-02-10, 09:54 AM
I don't have any Realms stuff. I'm just looking for ideas here.


Servant of the Fallen
[General]

You keep alive the worship of a deity who has died or vanished. Your faith in this fallen deity allows you to wield divine magic in his or her name.

Prerequisite: Cleric level 1st, dead or forgotten god (for example, Amaunator, Bhaal, Moander, or Myrkul) as patron deity

Benefit: You can name a dead god as your patron deity and still receive your cleric spells normally. In addition, you can call upon the universal remnant of your deity's power once per day to gain a +1 luck bonus on any single die roll. You can also be raised or resurrected normally.

Special: You can take this feat only once. Choosing this feat changes your patron from your previous deity to the dead or forgotten deity of your choice, and you take no penalties for making this change. If you later choose a different patron deity, you lose the benefi t of this feat, but your new patron may grant you spells just as he or she would for any other cleric. See Ancient Deities, page 41, for a list of notable dead gods, their alignments, and their domains.

Normal: Dead or fallen deities cannot grant cleric spells, so clerics who choose such patrons do not normally receive spells. Characters who do not worship active gods in Faerun suffer the fate of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane after death.

You could find it in Lost Empires of Faerun.
Maybe you could write off the 1st level prerequisite and let the Cleric take it.

WinWin
2011-02-10, 10:01 AM
Tharzidun is imprisoned yet his followers still gain spells. That has been around since 2e

Sounds more like a fluff issue to me. Spells like Contact other Plane and Planar Ally may not function properly as the deity can't provide guidance or aid, but other spells may work fine.

Perhaps certain areas or artifacts may nullify some of these hinderances. For example, a temple supposedly built by Moradin contains a tiny fraction of his essence, nurturing the abilities of his followers.

Gnoman
2011-02-10, 11:49 AM
Perhaps certain areas or artifacts may nullify some of these hinderances. For example, a temple supposedly built by Moradin contains a tiny fraction of his essence, nurturing the abilities of his followers.

Excellent. This is the sort of thing I was looking for.

Jothki
2011-02-10, 12:19 PM
...why do I suddenly see all the Ur-Priests in your campaign world smiling smugly over in a dark corner, trying to stifle fits of maniacal laughter or loud cackling rants of "I TOLD YOU SO!"...?

If the gods are sealed behind a barrier, they're as screwed as everyone else.

Gullintanni
2011-02-10, 12:33 PM
Perhaps certain areas or artifacts may nullify some of these hinderances. For example, a temple supposedly built by Moradin contains a tiny fraction of his essence, nurturing the abilities of his followers.

This is almost certainly how I would do it. If the Gods are aware that there's a risk of pantheon wide imprisonment, then they would almost definitely create permanent fixtures of their power within their plane or possibly invest some of their divinity in a cohort making them a quasi-god acting as a proxy for their power.

Sauron is a perfect example of the former. He invested a vast majority of his own vitality in the Ring so that his power would always have a presence in Middle Earth.

Gnoman
2011-02-11, 09:26 AM
This make sense. It would also work better if I explained the scenario.

In my campaign, a brief time after the world was made, one of the chief goddesses (I use standard D&D gods, Dragonlance Gods, and the Norse pantheon as lesser gods, and a pantheon of my own creation as greater ones) was able to trick the other gods into building Asgard for Odin and his family, then used Loki to open a gate to a massive well of proto-god power (it would normally take the three chief goddesses combined to open it, but the building of Asgard created a loophole). In the ensuing war, all of the gods that sided with her were killed, but she was able to seal the mortal world away from the surviving gods that opposed her. Thousands of years later, a mortal wielding a godforged weapon was able to kill her because so much of her power was devoted to maintaining this barrier. Now a cult lead by her godling daughter is trying to resurrect her, and as every other god of her caliber was killed, the lesser gods will be in huge trouble if this happens.

big teej
2011-02-14, 09:52 PM
In my campaign, all clerics must have a god (none of that abstract powers nonsense.) Right now, there is a solid chance that one or all PC-available gods will be killed or sealed away by an impenetrable barrier. If this happens, clerics would be rather badly hurt. I've already decided that only the knowledge of spells is provided by the diety in question, with the cleric's faith powering it. ?

not to sound antagonistic, but I am curious

how is this any different from the "abstract powers" nonsense?


(now granted, I'm on board with not allowing to be 'clerics of a cause'. that does NOT fly in my game at all.)

Marnath
2011-02-14, 10:17 PM
This make sense. It would also work better if I explained the scenario.

In my campaign, a brief time after the world was made, one of the chief goddesses (I use standard D&D gods, Dragonlance Gods, and the Norse pantheon as lesser gods, and a pantheon of my own creation as greater ones) was able to trick the other gods into building Asgard for Odin and his family, then used Loki to open a gate to a massive well of proto-god power (it would normally take the three chief goddesses combined to open it, but the building of Asgard created a loophole). In the ensuing war, all of the gods that sided with her were killed, but she was able to seal the mortal world away from the surviving gods that opposed her. Thousands of years later, a mortal wielding a godforged weapon was able to kill her because so much of her power was devoted to maintaining this barrier. Now a cult lead by her godling daughter is trying to resurrect her, and as every other god of her caliber was killed, the lesser gods will be in huge trouble if this happens.

So if I am right in assuming the barrier fell when she died, why don't the lesser gods just manifest and curbstomp the cult in person?

gibbo88
2011-02-15, 03:34 AM
Whats the point of being a God if you have to manifest off your cloud and do your own grunt work?

Necro_EX
2011-02-15, 03:49 AM
Big Teej - I'd assume that Gnoman's setting has the gods as the sources of divinity as opposed to merely powerful users of it, but that does bring me to the point I'd like to throw out here.

Why can these clerics still cast spells if their deities have died? If their divine spellcasting is powered by their faith in their gods rather than by the gods themselves, they may as well be clerics of a cause. Assuming your gods are the source of divine power, rather than just powerful wielders of it, I can't really make sense of their worshipers still being to cast any spells at all.

Yes, that's rather crippling, but if the players are at a power level where they can prevent deicide from occurring, that sounds like end-game material to me, so they're at the point where epic consequences like that are completely acceptable.

BiblioRook
2011-02-15, 04:38 AM
In the Realms, following Bane's (temporary) demise, I believe, IIRC, that Cyric was granting the Baneites' spells. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. The way I would do it would be to have the usurper of that deity's domains grant the spells, gradually converting the priests of the fallen deity to his/her own teachings.

Apparently that was pretty common in the Realms and often the god that took over didn't even try to openly claim the old god's portfolio and domains and just pretended that that god was still around. It's a tricky way to get good characters 'worshiping' evil gods.

Gnoman
2011-02-15, 12:34 PM
So if I am right in assuming the barrier fell when she died, why don't the lesser gods just manifest and curbstomp the cult in person?

They can manifest just fine, but there is an active god opposing them, and even as a godling she's one of the greater gods. She has enough power to keep them fuzzy and confused about her cults whereabouts. Also, except for her cult, nobody worships any currently dead gods, although the Dwarves still honour Odin.

And, yes, I'm trying to avoid gimping party clerics, both for this party and the possible sequels.

panaikhan
2011-02-16, 08:47 AM
There were rules in one of the 2e planar modules (Demonwebs, I think) that stated players were 'cut off' from their gods, so clerics could ony replenish 3rd level or lower spells.

Corlindale
2011-02-16, 10:05 AM
I would go with using the idea of a lingering residue of divine power, echoes of the presence of the gods. Maybe hint that this residue will not remain forever - you could even make a plot point of that - but for practical purposes your clerics will still have powers in the foreseeable future in your campaign.

However, I still think it would be neat to have some sort of actual effect of the change, so the cleric players don't feel that the events had no real consequences for them.
I think I would consider implementing some kind of "wild magic" aspect to cleric spells, to reflect the fact that the power is more difficult to control in the absence of the gods. Not something major that would screw over the clerics, just a small chance of strange things occuring when casting divine spells.

gbprime
2011-02-16, 10:37 AM
Go with the Servant of the Fallen feat, but hand it out as a bonus feat to any PC that completes a quest for a remnant or relic of the deity's power.

Greenish
2011-02-16, 11:18 AM
...why do I suddenly see all the Ur-Priests in your campaign world smiling smugly over in a dark corner, trying to stifle fits of maniacal laughter or loud cackling rants of "I TOLD YOU SO!"...?Ur-Priest has an adaption for being a servant of a dead god, I seem to recall.

Clerics who worship Tenebrous still gain spells (as per ToM), even though Orcus is no longer a deity, and what's left of his divinity is a mere vestige.

gbprime
2011-02-16, 11:27 AM
Ur-Priest has an adaption for being a servant of a dead god, I seem to recall.

Clerics who worship Tenebrous still gain spells (as per ToM), even though Orcus is no longer a deity, and what's left of his divinity is a mere vestige.

And when this happens, I still think it's Vecna they're actually receiving their mojo from. After all, he rose to power pretty darn quickly and loves evil secrets! :xykon:

arguskos
2011-02-16, 11:32 AM
In the Realms, following Bane's (temporary) demise, I believe, IIRC, that Cyric was granting the Baneites' spells. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. The way I would do it would be to have the usurper of that deity's domains grant the spells, gradually converting the priests of the fallen deity to his/her own teachings.
Cyric flat stole a lot of people, but Iyachtu Xvim the Baneson actually filled in for Bane before his use as the seed of Bane's resurrection. /themoreyouknow

Sorry, everything I actually wanted to say was covered already by gbprime a few posts ago, so I decided to just update this info about Bane's death, cause I could.

Grelna the Blue
2011-02-16, 11:39 AM
Slightly off topic, maybe, but I once ran a side adventure in which the players were attempting to shut down a business enterprise based on selling divine flesh for human consumption. The business model involved mining the stony flesh of a dead god on the Astral and Stone to Flesh spells.

Although, now that I think about it, if I were playing a cleric of that particular dead god, I'd be motivated to do something about that kind of blasphemy.

Edit: As stated above, the Servant of the Fallen (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2552-servant-of-the-fallen.html) feat is what you are looking for.