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View Full Version : Level Adjustment 0, Nerfed Sahuagin [3.5, PEACH]



dropdadgbe
2011-02-10, 10:32 AM
After playing in the same world for 3 years, my group has decided to roll up new characters drawn from the NPCs we've met over the last 100 or so sessions. One of the players in interested in playing a particular sahuagin.

If I'm understanding the rules correctly, sahuagins start with 2 HD and have a level adjustment of +2, so in order to start taking class levels they have to give up the equivalent of 4 levels to be even with other characters the same level. In our case, that's too much to give up (the characters we're rolling are only meant to be level 6).

If we make the following changes, does this sound like a reasonable compromise to make the sahuagin the equivalent of the other level adjustment 0 races in the PHB?

1) Get rid of the 2 HD of monstrous humanoid. Along with that, throw out any and all base attack bonus, base saves, skill points, and feats that come from being a 2 HD monstrous humanoid.
2) Get rid of the natural weapons (talons and bite). They normally also get Multiattack as a bonus feat, so get rid of that too. Sahuagins often fight with nets and tridents a lot anyway.
3) Get rid of the special attacks: blood frenzy and rake.
4) Lower the bonuses to the ability scores from [STR+4, DEX+2, CON+2, INT+4, WIS+2, CHA-2] to just [STR+2, WIS-2, CHA-2].


So the overall end result should be along the lines of:

* +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* Medium: As Medium creatures, sahuagins have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Sahuagin base land speed is 30 feet.
* Sahuagins also have a natural swim speed of 60 feet. Due to this speed, they also get a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. They can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. They can use the run action while swimming, provided they swim in a straight line.
* Blindsense (Ex): A sahuagin can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sahuagin is underwater.
* Darkvision (Ex): Sahuagins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but is otherwise like normal sight, and sahuagins can function just fine with no light at all.
* Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.
* Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds sahuagin for round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled while operating in bright light.
* Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as "food," "danger," and "enemy." Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.
* Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).
* Underwater, a sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks.
* A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Survival and Profession (hunter) checks within 50 miles of its home.
* A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks when working with sharks.
* Automatic Languages: Sahuagin. Bonus Languages: Common, Aquan... maybe others?
* Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass sahuagin's ranger class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.


Does that sound reasonable? Or do you think I should keep cutting?

shimmercat
2011-02-10, 06:11 PM
(One of this DM's players, although not the one playing a sahaugin...)

Ahaha, if by "decided to roll up new characters drawn from the NPCs" you mean that you kidnapped our entire level 25 party and Imprisoned them on the other side of the world. :smallsigh:

We should mention that the rest of the party is three humans and a shifter, and we'd like the sahuagin to be fairly balanced to them, with no level adjustment. Because level adjustments kinda suck.

Also should mention that the player of the sahuagin is talking about making him a druid.

Do you think we're in the wrong forum?

arguskos
2011-02-10, 06:15 PM
(One of this DM's players, although not the one playing a sahaugin...)

Ahaha, if by "decided to roll up new characters drawn from the NPCs" you mean that you kidnapped our entire level 25 party and Imprisoned them on the other side of the world. :smallsigh:

We should mention that the rest of the party is three humans and a shifter, and we'd like the sahuagin to be fairly balanced to them, with no level adjustment. Because level adjustments kinda suck.

Also should mention that the player of the sahuagin is talking about making him a druid.

Do you think we're in the wrong forum?
No, you're not. This qualifies as Homebrew. I do think that you are better off keeping a personal disagreement with the DM elsewhere, but that's just me. :smallwink:

As for the OP... eh. Humans are pretty powerful. Shifters less so. Given that the sahuagin character is going to be DROWNING pretty much all the time unless you play entirely underwater, I think he's at a severe disadvantage to open up with. Either give them the Amphibious quality (so they don't die out of water) or give them Blood Frenzy back (to make them worth taking).

Personally, I'd say you cut too much, but it's your game, you know best in that regard.

Cidolfas
2011-02-10, 06:21 PM
Nah, I don't think you're in the wrong forum. I personally think that making a sahuagin playable not only lies in cutting out the racial HD/level adjustment (although that's certainly a part of it) but also minimizing its weaknesses. In a party with humans and a shifter, the campaign is presumably on land. Given their freshwater dependency trait, this is an obvious problem for sahuagin because you will be fatigued almost constantly. If the campaign is underwater where the sahuagin is at home, you're rather limited in your choice of races (aquatic elves, merfolk, kuo-toa, etc., many of which have the same HD/LA problems that the sahuagin does. In that particular party, it seems like playing it would be difficult if that particular restriction isn't lifted.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-10, 06:23 PM
Personally, I'd say you cut too much, but it's your game, you know best in that regard.

I'd agree with arguskos here. Consider the Sahuagin out of water, and away from Sharks (which are, unsurprisingly, only found in water). I've put all the beneficial qualities in bold text, and all the serious, potentially crippling weaknesses in red.

+2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
Medium: As Medium creatures, sahuagins have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Sahuagin base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision (Ex): Sahuagins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but is otherwise like normal sight, and sahuagins can function just fine with no light at all.
Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.
Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds sahuagin for round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled while operating in bright light.
Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).
A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Survival and Profession (hunter) checks within 50 miles of its home. (of questionable utility)

See the problem? Unless the entire campaign is underwater, this race is all but worthless. It has Light Blindness (which is a -1 to all attack rolls from the Dazzled effect...which nicely negates the Strength bonus on attack rolls), is fatigued if swimming out of the ocean, requires water every couple of hours (and will likely be fatigued from the fresh water), and has 2 negative stats, all for +2 Str, Darkvision, and a fairly worthless skill bonus (provided you're within 50 miles of its ocean home).

That's three character-crippling (not minor...crippling) weaknesses in exchange for 2.1 somewhat decent bonuses.

The race, as presented, has far to many negative qualities and far to many circumstantial positive qualities to be a viable player race. How to fix it: Consider removing or mitigating some (or most, actually) of the penalties, and taking away the circumstantial abilities in favor of some that are more universally useful.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-10, 07:03 PM
I'd suggest doing the following:

+2 Str, -2 Cha
Low-light vision (to take the middle ground between darkvision and light sensitivity)
Medium Size
Land speed 30
Swim Speed 60
Keep the various underwater + shark dependant abilities as they are very flavourful while being of limited use
Give them racial proficiency with the trident and net regardless of class

I think that makes them roughly comparible to the standard races, although their abilities tend to be water-dependant. Still very useful if you're going to have watery areas in your game; if you aren't then I would suggest maybe giving them one or two of their abilities back (maybe natural weapons and/or a special attack) and just ignore all the water abilites save for swim speed.

Land Outcast
2011-02-10, 07:41 PM
I belive Dijnn nailed it when he put the out-of-water stats together.

The result would be similar to a Constantly Drowning Half Orc...

I'd just take away Light Blindness and Water Dependant... that'd be:

+2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* Medium: sahuagins have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Sahuagin base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision (Ex): 60 feet
* Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed every 10 minutes on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued.
*+4 racial bonus on Survival and Profession (hunter) within 50 miles of its home.

And Underwater:

* Sahuagins also have a natural swim speed of 60 feet.
* Speak with Sharks (Ex)
* Blindsense (Ex): 30-foot radius
* +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks.
* +4 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks when working with sharks.

Of course, if your campaign is mostly underwater that'd change everything.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-10, 07:54 PM
Try this one on for size. It's stronger than the Half-Orc (which is a woefully weak race) by a bit, retains much of the flavor of the Sahuagin, and doesn't have any truly crippling weaknesses. Note that this may be a little overpowered in a heavily aquatic campaign. In terms of power, it'll probably fit in well with a Shifter, actually. For balancing, consider giving a Wisdom penalty or requiring more water if it turns out OP, or giving it Blood Frenzy 1/day (Barbarians gain an extra Rage) if it's a bit UP.

Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Abilities: Strength +2, Charisma -2
Darkvision (Ex): 60ft
Swim Speed: 40 feet (+related Swim bonus)
Bite Attack: Natural weapon (1d4 + 1/2 Strength modifier / x2)
Light Sensitivity (Ex): Dazzled during the first round of exposure to bright light.
Blindsense (Ex): A sahuagin can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sahuagin is underwater.
Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as "food," "danger," and "enemy." Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.
Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin require water to survive. A sahuagin takes 1 point of Constitution damage for every 24 hours that it goes without hydrating fully. (at least 2 gallons of water a day for a sahuagin) This damage does not heal naturally unless the sahuagin hydrates fully, at which point the damage begins to heal normally.

shimmercat
2011-02-10, 08:41 PM
No, you're not. This qualifies as Homebrew. I do think that you are better off keeping a personal disagreement with the DM elsewhere, but that's just me. :smallwink:
Oh, I'm just teasing him, that wasn't a serious complaint. XD I had to make fun of his choice of words with "decided" there.

I'm gonna let him respond to the rest. We both had an "OH YEAH, most D&D doesn't take place on a sailing ship, does it? Should probably mention that..." moment there. XD

dropdadgbe
2011-02-10, 08:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone!


Of course, if your campaign is mostly underwater that'd change everything.
Time for a little more background, then!

This game takes place mainly on a boat, and many of the NPCs are crew. This particular sahuagin started out as a prisoner several months time, but over time has grown loyal and has been gradually granted more freedoms. He still lives in the brig, where he keeps a bathtub to sleep in, but the door isn't locked for him and he regularly takes shifts to help keep the boat running.

The player's concept for this character is to stat him out as a druid, with a shark for an animal companion. Stormwrack has a handful of druid spells to help cope with the land weaknesses, which includes fins to feet for the shark and air breathing for them both.

The overall plot at this moment involves sailing from one side of the world to the other, with plenty of opportunities for water-based fighting in between. In the backdrop, three of the dominant human nations are at war with each other, one of which insisting that the sahuagins are forming up to come slaughter the humans (and they are!) while the other two claim that the first one is exaggerating the sahuagin threat as an excuse to build up its navy.

So the game doesn't exactly take place underwater per se, but there's a lot of opportunities to run around in it.

Land Outcast
2011-02-10, 11:38 PM
These things considered (not the Druid part, that is far more incidental than the "sailing campaign" thing), I'd stay with what you originally proposed, except:

I'd remove the Wisdom penalty

Partially considering that the original creature had a bonus...
but mainly because of its favored class being Ranger (plenty of Wisdom dependant stuff).
Still, I can see how a race of bloodthirsty creatures might have a penalty to Wisdom.

I'd lower swim speed to 40 ft.

As Djinn suggested; it's still a really good speed for moving underwater for a creature with LA +0

I'd change Light Blindness for Light Sensitivity

As Djinn suggested; the general effect stays the same, but is less hampering

I was thinking about nerfing Blindsense, but it's no Blindight, so all's right with the world.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-11, 09:11 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Time for a little more background, then!

Given this, I still think my proposal is fairly decent as far as balance goes.

dropdadgbe
2011-02-11, 10:29 AM
I'm completely on board with the idea of lessening the penalties to make the race more playable -- especially changing light blindness to light sensitivity. The swim score of 40 sounds reasonable too.

I feel like on a boat, the water-dependent trait isn't so crippling. One of the big things about boats is that if you run three shifts, you can put in your 8 hours on watch and travel the rest of the day without spending any energy. Looking at the races in Stormwrack, I see that aquatic elves get 1 hour on land per point of CON (whereas sahuagins in the monster manual get 1 hour per 2 points of CON), so I could see changing it to match. Alternatively, I could see changing it to fatigue (to match the freshwater sensitivity, except that it takes hours before it kicks in) as opposed to suffocation/drowning.

And most of you have suggested using STR+2,CHA-2 with no Wisdom penalty. I'm fine with that, but I was wondering if I should put another penalty somewhere else. On page 173 in the Dungeon Master's Guide, it says that if you create a race with a strength bonus it takes two mental stat penalties to balance it out.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-11, 10:36 AM
And most of you have suggested using STR+2,CHA-2 with no Wisdom penalty. I'm fine with that, but I was wondering if I should put another penalty somewhere else. On page 173 in the Dungeon Master's Guide, it says that if you create a race with a strength bonus it takes two mental stat penalties to balance it out.

And it's not really right when it says that, honestly. :smallbiggrin:

Wannabehero
2011-02-11, 12:58 PM
And most of you have suggested using STR+2,CHA-2 with no Wisdom penalty. I'm fine with that, but I was wondering if I should put another penalty somewhere else. On page 173 in the Dungeon Master's Guide, it says that if you create a race with a strength bonus it takes two mental stat penalties to balance it out.

I am in agreement with Djinn on this. What makes the strength attribute so much better than the other attributes that it warrants such a steep penalty? It is an antiquated notion.

I think the original designers foresaw physical attributes, with strength being the dominant, as more important than mental ones, which is not at all how things work out.

I, Dashing Cube
2011-02-11, 07:20 PM
A strenght bonus is probably one of the least usefull to get, because it doesn't increase your spellcasting capabilities and only gives + 1 to hit and to damage, which is pretty small at any level. Dex boosts initiative and Con gives bonus at all levels.