PDA

View Full Version : 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard



malachi
2011-02-10, 01:00 PM
I'm new to 4e, and feel like I'm not hitting all that often.
I'm playing a lvl 1 Eladrin wizard (shortly to reach lvl 2). I have 18 int (16 + 2 from racial bonus).
My powers are: thunderwave, phantasmal assault, orbmaster's incendiary detonation, sleep, and the sustainable fire orb from PHB 1. In our last encounter, I ended up hitting less than a third of the time (thunderwaves that targets multiple minions).
How can I increase my chance to hit things (short of magic items)?

As far as I know, the only things that affect my attack rolls are my intelligence and any enhancement bonus from magical implements. And maybe some feats somewhere, but I feel that I might be missing something important (similar to martial classes' proficiency bonus with weapons).

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 01:03 PM
Your best bet is to take Enlarge Spell and simply make more attack rolls. If you make four attacks per turn, and half of them hit, you're still being highly effective.

Sipex
2011-02-10, 01:06 PM
You could look up the Implement Expertise feat from the PHB2 which gives +1 to all attack rolls made with your implement of choice.

edit: Also, save up your cash for a +1 version of your implement, 360gp. Your DM might include this in his treasure but you never know.

Also try swapping up what defense you attack. Having trouble hitting their FORT defense? Swap to REF.

In addition, pick up powers which attack WILL, nearly everything has lower WILL.

You can, by raw, make knowledge checks on enemies to find out their defenses too if the DM is okay with this, the DC is relatively high though.

malachi
2011-02-10, 01:21 PM
@Kurad Galain: That was the plan originally, but it was more along the lines of I'm making 6 attack rolls (in this case, an area burst 3 orbmaster's detonation), and only hitting twice (one imp and dretch each ). My enlarged thunderwaves only ever hit one guy at a time (which put me in a precarious position, because our party of 4 + 2 NPCs and a horse was outnumbered).

Btw, that horse was badass. It got more kills than our ranger (granted, the horse's kills were minions, and the ranger's kill was the mini-boss, but still).

I probably need to work out plans with my meat shields to blast with thunderwave more often.

@Sipex: That sounds useful. I'd probably seen it at one point, but then forgotten. I'll look it over before leveling.
@Sipex edit: If the DM tells me that my attack that targets will missed because the monster (a minion imp, in this case) had really beady eyes and didn't really notice the phantasmal assault, that means I shouldn't try that attack anymore, right?
I should have enough money now to buy a better orb (unless the meatshield makes me buy him a magical javelin... I [i]accidentally set one on fire. With an encounter power. And was forced to promise to buy a new one.)

Thanks for your help guys (both the strategy and equip/feat choice).

Vknight
2011-02-10, 01:25 PM
The best idea is what has already been stated.
Increase your bonuses, increase how many attacks, and hit a variety of defenses rather then 1.

Sipex
2011-02-10, 01:33 PM
I probably need to work out plans with my meat shields to blast with thunderwave more often.

@Sipex: That sounds useful. I'd probably seen it at one point, but then forgotten. I'll look it over before leveling.
@Sipex edit: If the DM tells me that my attack that targets will missed because the monster (a minion imp, in this case) had really beady eyes and didn't really notice the phantasmal assault, that means I shouldn't try that attack anymore, right?
I should have enough money now to buy a better orb (unless the meatshield makes me buy him a magical javelin... I accidentally set one on fire. With an encounter power. And was forced to promise to buy a new one.)

Thanks for your help guys (both the strategy and equip/feat choice).

For your burst/blast, you just need to talk to your party about tactics. Also, see if you're allowed to metagame at all and state "I'm going to place a burst here on my turn, could you guys try to stay out of there if possible?"

On your question about the attack missing. It depends, did you get a really good roll on that attack? If so then yeah, it might be time to swap defenses. If you didn't then keep trying it. It could simply be that the DM was adding flavour to your miss beyond saying "Oh, you missed."

Fallbot
2011-02-10, 01:36 PM
Superior implement training and an accurate implement (PHB3) is an extra +1 to your attack rolls.

Jaidu
2011-02-10, 01:49 PM
If you're allowed to use Essentials feats, there are expertise feats that do more than just give a bonus to hit. Staff Expertise, for example, gives a +1 feat bonus to hit, lets you make ranged attacks without provoking OAs, and gives your melee attacks extra reach.

Vknight
2011-02-10, 01:54 PM
Ah essentials how I love thee and your amazing feat selection.

malachi
2011-02-10, 01:54 PM
@Sipex
I kind of suck at tactics.
Also (from your earlier post), it hadn't occurred to me to do monster checks. That would help a lot.

@Fallbot
(I believe the answer is probably yes, but) Can you have a magical superior implement? And would the cost just be the cost of the magical implement (say, +1 orb) + the cost of the superior implement (for 360 + 30 for an orb)?

@Jaidu
What book are those feats from?

Jaidu
2011-02-10, 02:07 PM
@Jaidu
What book are those feats from?

Heroes of the Fallen Lands

Fallbot
2011-02-10, 02:11 PM
Yup, you can enchant them the same way you enchant anything else. I'm not 100% on the pricing, but going off the character builder I think the cost of the...superiorness is included, so it would only be 360gp for a +1 accurate orb.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 02:13 PM
@Sipex
I kind of suck at tactics.
Also (from your earlier post), it hadn't occurred to me to do monster checks. That would help a lot.

@Fallbot
(I believe the answer is probably yes, but) Can you have a magical superior implement? And would the cost just be the cost of the magical implement (say, +1 orb) + the cost of the superior implement (for 360 + 30 for an orb)?

@Jaidu
What book are those feats from?

Just like all weapons and implements in 4e the cost for a +1 accurate implement is the same as a standard +1 implement. The cost difference only occurs with the non magical stuff.

Another idea is to get more Will based attacks (it tends to be very low) and better targeting of the NADS (non AC defences). Front line brutes and soldiers tend to have high fort which makes thunder wave less accurate (though that is when you need it most) while back line guys tend to have higher ref. Casters tend to have a high will. So front line will is king. Back line fort tends to be better and do not use a will attack on the mindflayer.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-10, 02:15 PM
I kind of suck at tactics.
Then wizard might not be the class for you. It is one of the harder classes to play, relatively speaking.

Also, ask yourself what level enemies you're facing, and whether you simply may have been unlucky for a session.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 02:20 PM
Also if your DM is alright with this and you really care more about accuracy than your secondary effects you could bring your int to 20 and lower some of your other stats. Wizards do well with max int.

It is slightly heavy handed but it would help a little.

gourdcaptain
2011-02-10, 02:54 PM
Either the monster defenses are slightly wonky, or you're just having a run of bad luck. (Ask the DM after the fights if you can compare your to hit against their defenses and work out the hit rate. If it's pretty close to 50% or so, don't sweat it - 4e tends to average around that, especially at lower levels before differentiation sets in.) The aformentioned Expertise feats and superior implements are your best bet otherwise - 18 is a respectable stat to hit with at LV 1. There's headbands of intellect (+1 to hit with psychic powers) or something along that name, but they're LV 10 magic items, I think. (Really missing compendium access or an SRD to reference).

There's a bit of a meme in my 4e group of the Warlock's Curse - every warlock player will spend two sessions after starting the character hitting NOTHING. (I was the first person to fall under this - spent two sessions never hitting anything or being hit by anything. At all.) Luck is easy to rationalize into build quality, in a positive or negative way.

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 03:02 PM
It might just be a first level thing. At first level, every monster you face is going to be your level or higher. Your DM couldn't throw a lower level monster at you even if he wanted. Once you start to level up, the DM would have a larger selection of monsters to throw at you and would likely have a more even mix of higher/lower level monsters in the encounter.

malachi
2011-02-10, 03:07 PM
@Gourdcaptain
50% hit rate is normal? In that case, I'm going to blame it on bad rolls. I think we're building up our share of bad luck memes (first strike of ranger daily power and dragonborn breath to name two).
I might be able to see if the defenses are wonky after our next session; I'm expecting at least one more fight with these guys. I'm pretty sure that the DM'll reuse those monsters at least once (we have another day of travel with the cabbage wagon before returning the artifact that the demons are after).

@MeeposFire
So Will is good against meat shields and archers, Ref is good against meat shields and casters, and fort is good against archers and casters? Is that a mostly valid simplification?

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-10, 03:11 PM
Beyond Expertise, Superior Implement, Enlarge Spell, and various niche build feats (Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist), no, there's not much else you can do.

nightwyrm
2011-02-10, 03:12 PM
Hit rate at around 50% is normal for most 4e characters. Highly optimized characters can push their hit rate to 70-80% or higher but most conventional characters would be around 40-60%.

randomhero00
2011-02-10, 03:14 PM
+1 to randomness bad/good luck sometimes. One session of 8 hours or so I was knocked to negative hit points every single encounter (I got crit a lot). I barely did any damage at all (like 10 points the entire time). Whereas the rest of my party was the opposite, they had very similar defenses but were missed nearly the entire time. Even on traps where it only hits one person in the party (So I had like a 1/6 chance to get hit) I got hit every single time. It was so sucky.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 03:14 PM
High accuracy is easier to obtain using weapon wielders. Magic hass less avenues for accuracy optimization though it also has some nice stuff going for it (such as being able to up the size of a burst).

Slayer, scouts, hunters, avengers, and rogues have some of the best accuracy in the game.

WinWin
2011-02-10, 03:27 PM
Feats are of great assistance, most notably implement expertise and it's variations. Work with your party leaders if you have them, they may be able to provide bonuses at crucial times and help set up a devastating combo.

Combat advantage is a +2 to attack rolls, though gaining combat advantage can be complicated for a level 1 wizard. I would suggest using stealth. You may be able to get a bonus on your first attack of the encounter vs. unobservant critters. Without training, this tactic is not highly effective though.

Attacking non armour defences requires a little experience. Remember that you can ask to make a knowledge check about a monster as a free action. This could provide clues as to what the vulnerabilities of the monster are. This comes in handy not only for determining defences, but what kind of energy resistances and vulnerabilities a monster may possess.

Generally brute and soldier monsters have a high fortitude defence. Artillery and Lurkers have high Reflex. Controllers and Leader types have high Will. At lower levels, Will is commonly a low defence for many monsters. Far easier to target than Fortitude.

Retraining an at-will power might be the solution. At least until you can afford to invest in more accuracy via feats and items.

cupkeyk
2011-02-10, 06:51 PM
Hi, If you aren't into tactics then wizard is not the best class for you.

As for accuracy, Implement users' AB are two to three points lower than Weapon Users' AB. This is mitigated by the fact that Implement Users attack NAD while weapon users don't. The disparity is smaller at low levels but at higher levels Reflex and Will han be up to five points lower than Fort and AC.

You are consistently using Thunderwave, and it attacks the strongest NAD, usually a point or two lower than AC. Thunderwave is anawesome spell for battlefield arrangement but if you want to hit a good 80% of the time, choose winged horde, which is an expandable attack vs. Will. Thunderwave is also a close burst and it means that you will actually be within three squares of the opponent! Winged Horde also has a better range, ranged burst.

Versatile Expertise (Staff or Dagger/Implement of Choice) plus Suyperior implement Accurate Wand/staff/orb raises your accuracy by up two within paragon.

Numinous
2011-02-10, 07:12 PM
I'd say a hit rate of about 60% is closer to baseline.

Average level 1 NAD is 13, so with just a +4 from Int your Wizard should be hitting on a 9+, so 60%

As other have said, given that there are no lower level monsters you're probably fighting some higher level monsters, so you're probably closer to 50% at the moment.

kyoryu
2011-02-10, 07:27 PM
As others have pointed out, boosting your accuracy might not be the real fix.

First, saying that you're missing 2/3 of the time doesn't really mean anything - if you're rolling 5s, there's a good chance you'll miss. That's just the luck of the dice.

Secondly, you won't get that +10 bonus at 1st level that a Fighter might get. Just isn't going to happen. But, as others have pointed out, you're attacking NADs, which *can* be lower.

As an example, a level 3 Orc Raider has AC 17. With a +4 to hit, that means you need a 13 or higher to hit. His Fortitude is 15, meaning you need an 11 or higher. STill not great.

Reflex is 14, meaning you need a 10. Hey! You're in the 50/50 range! But his will is only 12 - so with a bare +4 to hit, which is level 1, 18 stat, no other bonuses - you're hitting on an 8 or better. That's pretty good.

What this means is being effective isn't so much about maximizing your stats, as it is power and target selection. Don't use Thunderwave against the big beefy guys, they'll just laugh it off. Do use it against the frail, fast guys.

Fort is probably the worst NAD to attack as a general, all-purpose ability, as it tends to have the highest of the defenses - attacking a fort-heavy monster with a fort-targetting ability is worse than attacking a fast one with reflex, basically.

The other problem with Thunderwave is that it attacks Fort, and due to the fact that it's a close blast, you're likely to be hitting soldiers/brutes with it - which have high Fort. It's pretty good for blowing skirmishers back, though.

cupkeyk
2011-02-10, 07:50 PM
A human with 20 Int, 13 secondary with Expertise and Accurate implement proficiency will have an AB of +7. Against the aforementioned Orc raider, that's 70% hit chance. Not a lot better. its tactics that win the game. Instead of Accurate Implement, How about ranged advantage. Then if your friends flank a baddie, your hit rate is at 75%. Lolz.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-10, 08:13 PM
I know I'm rehashing some points already made, but to optimize your attack rolls as a wizard:

Maximize Int as much as you can
Expertise
Accurate Superior Impliement
Always get just basic +x impliments and get them as soon as you can
Know enemy roles, try to remember which ones have low ref, fort or will.
If you don't know a foe's lowest defense, generally will is best (unless it's magical), followed by ref. Fort is usually the highest defence.
I forget the feat names, but there are two feats that make getting combat advantage easier for certain types of wizards: one gives you CA against slowed opponents, the other gives you CA against targets you hit with an illusion
Enlarge spell -> more attacks = more hits
Keep in mind some paragon paths will eventually up your to hit ability as well
If your fellow PCs are nice they might be able to find ways to give you bonuses to hit or combat advantage

Other than that... all I can say is that wizards aren't meant to have great attack rolls. There isn't a lot you can do to optimize attack rolls as a wizard. On the other hand there is a lot you can do to make your attacks very nasty when they hit (and sometimes when they miss too). With my wizard I found it best to focus on making my attacks as destructive and widespread as possible - if I was lucky with my attack rolls I could outdamage the party's stikers (and ruin the enemy's turn).

gurban
2011-02-10, 08:47 PM
Distant Advantage and Viscious Advantage are other good feats to pick up. Also, go after anyone presenting combat advantage. That +2 always seems to ikick in when you need it.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 09:40 PM
Another unsaid thing is that older monsters had more deviance in defenses hence why fort is considered the most common highest NAD as that is true in MM1. In MM3 and onward this trend has decreased so this is not as true. Unfortunately there are more monsters in the old style than the new and you are more likely to fight those monsters. New style is found in the Monster Vault, MM3, and the Dark Sun setting.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-10, 09:47 PM
Other than that... all I can say is that wizards aren't meant to have great attack rolls. There isn't a lot you can do to optimize attack rolls as a wizard. On the other hand there is a lot you can do to make your attacks very nasty when they hit (and sometimes when they miss too). With my wizard I found it best to focus on making my attacks as destructive and widespread as possible - if I was lucky with my attack rolls I could outdamage the party's stikers (and ruin the enemy's turn).

This, you also need to work with a good buffer. Preferably a bard or cleric.

tcrudisi
2011-02-11, 12:15 AM
@Kurad Galain: That was the plan originally, but it was more along the lines of I'm making 6 attack rolls (in this case, an area burst 3 orbmaster's detonation), and only hitting twice (one imp and dretch each [imp was a minion, dretch was weaker]).

Since no one else has spoken up on this (at least from the first 20 or so posts that I read), I wanted to make sure you were doing this correctly.

The attack is a burst 1 (or burst 2 if you have the Enlarge Spell feat and use it). It's not ally-friendly. It will hit your allies.

Now, during your next turn, you can use your Orb of Imposition power to extend the duration of the zone. Instead of expiring this round, it will expire next round. Furthermore, it expands to burst 3. So any enemy that starts or enters that zone will take 2 fire damage. This zone is ally-friendly.

The initial burst was not. The zone is.

That's such a confusing power that many people mess it up. It seems like you did, so I wanted to make sure you are using it correctly.

Because I don't want to just randomly post without giving good feedback, I'll let you know the best ways of increasing it at your level:

feats, feats, feats.
Orb Expertise (+1 to hit, +1 to the distance of all your forced movement powers)
Superior Implement Training (+1 to hit) -> obviously, take Orb Expertise first
Superior Reflexes (+2 Reflex, automatic combat advantage with all your attacks in round 1. This is so beautiful at low levels that it makes me want to cry. Often you will go first as a Wizard. Giving yourself +2 on all your attacks in the first round makes the difference between them being locked-down or them being free to roam).

Obviously, a +1 implement is nice. Might I suggest saving up for a level 3 implement? Orb of Nimble Thoughts +1 would function as a +1 implement and allow you to add your Int mod to init rolls (+4 init).

Those are your best bets right now. You are low level so there aren't a ton of options, unfortunately. Anyway, good luck!



Other than that... all I can say is that wizards aren't meant to have great attack rolls. There isn't a lot you can do to optimize attack rolls as a wizard. On the other hand there is a lot you can do to make your attacks very nasty when they hit (and sometimes when they miss too). With my wizard I found it best to focus on making my attacks as destructive and widespread as possible - if I was lucky with my attack rolls I could outdamage the party's stikers (and ruin the enemy's turn).

My wizard disagrees with you. I just played a H3 (levels 7-10) module on high (designed for level 9-10 characters) with my level 8 Wizard. I only missed once (it was a natural 1). And, I did it without having a leader in the group to buff my attacks.

The Wizard should be just as accurate as most. (Avenger being the most obvious exception, Rogue/Fighter/Warlock/Ranger +1's being the others). In fact, I daresay he should be on par with those strikers even. It's okay to start with a 20 Int with a Wizard since you really aren't losing much.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-11, 02:56 AM
My wizard disagrees with you. I just played a H3 (levels 7-10) module on high (designed for level 9-10 characters) with my level 8 Wizard. I only missed once (it was a natural 1). And, I did it without having a leader in the group to buff my attacks.

The Wizard should be just as accurate as most. (Avenger being the most obvious exception, Rogue/Fighter/Warlock/Ranger +1's being the others). In fact, I daresay he should be on par with those strikers even. It's okay to start with a 20 Int with a Wizard since you really aren't losing much.

Maybe our wizards ought to have a duel then. :smalltongue:

I think my DM may have put our party through tougher challenges than yours, since I had pretty close to all the same advantages you did (minus Superior Reflexes) and my hit rate ranged from 50% to 75% depending on what I was fighting. Either that or you're just plain luckier than me.

It kind of seems to me that any character with weapon based attacks has an advantage on the wizard's attack roll, since they can get an extra +1 over their target defence by getting a +3 proficiency weapon and then an effective +2 on average if they have a NAD targeting power. I also believe there are magic items that buff ranged and melee attack rolls, but none exist for area attacks, so that's another source of optimization wizards lack.

malachi
2011-02-11, 09:08 PM
@tcrudisi
Huh. That makes the power significantly less awesome. I think the DM will appreciate that (he was amazed at the power of a 7x7 square of minion killing just being dropped out of the blue).

I'll take implement expertise or something similar (I don't think the DM has Essentials, so I couldn't get any of the implement-specific feats).

I'm thinking it was just a combination of bad luck and expecting 70+ hit percentage. Well, that and a strange fear of using my daily spell (casting sleep towards the end probably would have netted me an artifact that my character would have loved to study, even if it proved useless and/or deadly dangerous).