The Military vs a Zombie Apocalypse

[bladesyz]

In pretty much every zombie flick, the military is portrayed as being overrun by zombies early on in the crisis.

Many people find this to be unrealistic, given the kind of firepower that we can summon. However, I think that while the military could probably hole out somewhere if they had proper leadership and good supplies, they won't be able to stop a full-out zombie apocalypse, at least not easily.

Because zombie outbreaks always explode in population centers, and because nobody really believes in zombies, it is extremely unlikely for the military to decide to call in heavy ordnance on population centers at the beginning.

Most likely, there will be quarantine measures declared (though likely too late), and as more zombie incidents are reported and chaos breaks out, Martial Law will be declared. At this stage, the government still does not realize the magnitude of the threat and will still be ordering the military to help law-enforcement to keep order.

This means the military itself will be heavily exposed to the zombie infection. Since the infection does not kill immediately, wounded soldiers will be brought back to barracks, where they will cause outbreaks themselves. This will very likely wipe out a large number of military personnel, and surprise the hell out of those soldiers on the "front line", making it very likely that their positions will get overrun.

By the time the government decides to risk massive collateral damage and call in air strikes or even nuclear strikes, the government itself might have been compromised. The military chain of command may have been broken, communication is likely in shambles. Even if those orders do get carried out, they are, by then, useless as a quarantine measure, as the infection likely went global already.

A few cities will be leveled, maybe even nuked, but the outbreak will not have been stopped.

[Earl William]

It would be a slaughter. Sort of. What's it called when you kill hordes of things that aren't alive? Anyway, zombies are roughly the least intimidating threat a modern army could face. Mindless, weaponless, slow, unarmored things that don't even notice when you get to stand in a firing range. Real apocalypse material there. One helicopter carrying enough ammo could destroy a million of them without breaking a sweat. Does anyone have a link to the Cracked article about how stupid a zombie apocalypse is? It's talks about how you don't even have to shoot them to kill(or whatever) them all. Zombies do however have one valid military use. Target practice.

[Domochevsky]

Aren't zombie apocalypses unlikely to break out in the first place anyway? :smallconfused:
(Also a Cracked article, if i remember correctly.)

[Frozen_Predator]

having just come back from a company sized combined arms (Tanks, Infantry and Engineers) urban warfare training i can say that any army can clear out an infested city no matter how large within a week. whenever the infantry had a positive enemy I.D. on a house we'd roll up and start blasting untill the building was declared rubble. If there was no positive I.D. then a machinegunner would first fire into the entry point and then the squad would enter immediatley positioning rifles aimed at every door. anyone coming through the door would get 3 bullets, two in the chest, one in the head.

wounded troops would be removed from the front lines to a casualty clearing area. this is inside a logistics centre under heavy guard by the reserve unit (and in Urban warfare there is usually a full company of infantry and one platoon of tanks standing in reserve)

and army life involves a lot of boredom. most units i know of have in their boredom developed weird what if scenarios and how to deal with it. A zombie apocalypse is one of them

[LordShotGun]

What a better Zombie Apocalypse matchup would be the Left 4 Dead universe zombies versus the military. Ergo, mutations, fast zombies, carriers (survivors are immune people who can still spread the virus) and the virus being fluid and not blood based which is a huge difference (in the L4D comic zoey is told she could infect someone by breathing on them).

If one carrier or one infected zombie dies in a water source theoreticly it could infect the whole water supply. Hunters laugh at walls, tanks laugh at fortifications, smokers laugh at high point snipers, spiters laugh giggle at chokepoints, and boomers....infect normal people?/draw zombies to survivors and chargers....Well I guess chargers are kinda weak.

[Pie Guy]

Yes, L4D is a better match, but if we treat the game as realistic, four relatively unequipped survivors can take down tanks fairly easily, so the army would have little trouble.

Edit: Logistically, it'd be a nightmare, of course.

[Saint GoH]

The military is a lumbering machine. It takes awhile to warm up. Once it DOES get going a military force is something to be reckoned with.

Look at 28 Days/Weeks later. By the time the military got involved half the population was either infected or carrying. The whole premise of a zombie apocalypse is exponential growth. When the zombies are growing at a staggering rate and the military has to go through procedures and politically correct processes, its only inevitable the balance will shift in favor of the zombies.

Granted, look at I Am Legend or one of the older zombie films (Night of the Living Dead? maybe?) Once the military got involved they could lock down entire sections of the country and purge out pockets of zombies. In the older zombie film I mentioned like 6 soldiers and 2 scientists live for months in THE MIDDLE OF THE ZOMBIE INFESTATION. Soldiers and advanced firepower do wonders for an apocalypse, its just getting them rolling that takes forever.

[Tyrant]

It would be a slaughter. Sort of. What's it called when you kill hordes of things that aren't alive? Anyway, zombies are roughly the least intimidating threat a modern army could face. Mindless, weaponless, slow, unarmored things that don't even notice when you get to stand in a firing range. Real apocalypse material there. One helicopter carrying enough ammo could destroy a million of them without breaking a sweat. Does anyone have a link to the Cracked article about how stupid a zombie apocalypse is? It's talks about how you don't even have to shoot them to kill(or whatever) them all. Zombies do however have one valid military use. Target practice.
If it's the cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/article_18683_7-scientific-reasons-zombie-outbreak-would-fail-quickly.html) I am thinking of then it has some flaws (surely not). My problem is that they try to apply scientific principals to something that is already breaking the rules of reality. That is only helpful up to a point. There other problem is that they take a generic concept called a zombie and not any specific mythology (I believe because they know some of those stories answer their criticisms). It's similar to an article I read about Luke Skywalker. It states up front that it will ignore the EU and the only reason is because the central question is very easily answered in the EU (or using common sense).
1) Natural predators-Only a problem if you make some assumptions. The first assumption is that the zombies can't pass on whatever it is that is animating them to the animal. In a T Virus scenario, those animals all become zombies too, making the problem much worse. It also assumes animals will actually attack something like a zombie. It also assumes that they will continue to be worm food. Too many assumptions, some of which are covered in some zombie stories.
2/3) Hot/cold-They are already violating the laws of reality by walking around while dead. Do you think they will still obey the laws of thermodynamics? Do you think whatever is animating them won't also make them able to withstand hot and cold?
4) Biting being a terrible way to spread a disease-True (to an extent), however that is usually not the origin. In the Romero series it is something that starts reanimating everyone. You don't have to bitten to become a zombie. In Resident Evil it is a virus. In either case, if it spreads to animals then bites will do wonders to spread it when it gets in mesquitos.
5) Can't repair damage-This one I will grant. I don't believe they usually stumble around as mindlessly as it is implied in the article though. They seem too walk on roads, not off the sides of bridges. And again, it depends on the scenario. I was under the impression that the T Virus does repair tissue to an extent.
6) The landscape isn't kind to zombies-True, but most people don't live in mountains and canyons. Our cities are made for people to be able to walk everywhere on smooth, even concrete.
7) Guns-Valid to a point. Most people have an issue with shooting other people. That hesitation will cost lives (and attack the gun owners at both ends as the number of gun owners decreases while the number of zombies increases). This is also not even close to a universal state of affairs, as far as gun owner ship.
I think in the two main scenarios that I ever bother to consider (Romero and the T Virus), there is a possibility of the zombies winning. In the Romero version, everyone who dies comes back to life. Everyone. That's everyone who dies today, and everyone who's already dead that isn't in the ground (I assume the ones in the ground reanimate too but they are underground). That initial surprise may be enough to tip the scales. Those zombies will seek out others to kill. A number of them will be in hospitals, which are full of less than able people to munch on. Then we get to day 2. At this point, does the world know what is actually happening yet? Is the average person able to fully accept it? Another group of people die (typical daily deaths: old age, disease, violence, etc) and add to the numbers. Some hospitals are likely over run, or at least crippled beyond hope. That equals more deaths at some point in the near future. Then we throw in everyone who either sees this as their moment to make their move or some kind of sign and they start killing people. It all depends on what happens in the first few days.

In the T Virus scenario, once the virus is out if the area is not immediately nuked into oblivion, the world will end. If the virus gets out from the initial zone, there will be no stopping it because it infects everything.

I think if it's isolated in a single city and is caused by something that only infects humans then it could be contained as long as you don't have a 12 Monkeys-like scenario where someone who's infected gets on a plane (and likely infected others in the airport with different destinations).

[Lunix Vandal]

Yes, L4D is a better match, but if we treat the game as realistic, four relatively unequipped survivors can take down tanks fairly easily, so the army would have little trouble.Unless, as suggested by L4D's The Sacrifice comic tie-in (which LordShotGun mentioned), the army has no freaking clue what is going on outside their quarantine zones, and by extension has no intel on the tactics that are effective in combating your chosen flavor of zedpocalypse. The Survivors take down Tanks "fairly easily" because it's a skill they learned the hard way, thanks to their (apparently) unstoppable survival instincts: Learn While Doing or Die Horribly.The comic starts with the military APC pickup at the end of the Blood Harvest campaign. On arrival at a military base at the edge of the quarantine zone, the Survivors are immediately quarantined behind three inches of airtight steel and plate glass and placed under armed guard. Once Francis goads the guards into switching on the intercom (it takes some doing) the guards reveal that, highly trained as they are, they have never seen or heard of anything resembling the Infection. One derisively mentions the "rumors" that the Infection is starting to mutate. Cue full listing of the original L4D Special Infected by Louis and Francis -- and two soldiers' disbelief that Hunters can jump the compound walls, Smokers have hundred-foot-long prehensile tongues, and Boomers explode.

The recruits remain unconvinced until after the base's paranoid/idiotic CO trips the air raid siren to signal a full evacuation after Bill and Zoey break out during their physicals. As in the games, this brings down a Horde on the base -- the recruits' first taste of it is an L4D2 daytime-mode Witch shambling down the hallway, to the tune of Louis and Francis' quiet-but-panicked instructions to flatten themselves against the wall or die. As the Survivors make good on their escape, they encounter the other L4D Specials, and the recruits are given "L4D for Dummies" tutorials on dealing with each. They need it.

It isn't until the Finale of The Parish in L4D2 that the New Survivors see signs that the military actually started doing something to combat the Infection after CEDA's attempts at outbreak containment failed. "See signs et cetera" meaning "are in the completely-Infected New Orleans in the middle of its inaugural carpet bombing." The timeline here makes the military look horrible:
-Patient Zero becomes Infected.
-Infection spreads. CEDA gets involved.
-Two weeks pass. L4D starts.
-The Survivors start working their way south from Fairfield, Pennsylvania.
-A few days later, the Survivors arrive at the Northeastern Safe Zone. The only sign of the military they've seen before this are numerous wrecked vehicles, abandoned M16A3s and Benelli M4s, and a solitary bombed-out airport.
-Within 24 hours of being placed under quarantine, the Survivors attempt a jailbreak. The Northeastern Safe Zone is overrun when the base's CO responds in the worst way possible -- by triggering the horde-calling evacuation sirens. This is where the above comic synopsis fits in.
-The Survivors hijack a freight train, which they take straight to the "port town of Rayford" somewhere on the Gulf of Mexico. The trip likely takes a day or two.
-In Rayford, the Survivors hole up on top of a raised bridge while waiting for the horde to disperse so they can grab a sailboat and make a break for the Florida Keys. L4D ends, L4D2 begins.
-The New Survivors start their journey from Savannah, Georgia to New Orleans, Louisiana. (A CEDA evacuation map in a side room early in the first map of the first campaign (Dead Center) suggests that all but one of the safe zones and evac points in the continental USA have been overrun by this point in time. New Orleans is the exception.)
-They pass through Rayford, meeting the (still-holed up) Original Survivors on the way.
-The New Survivors arrive in New Orleans a few days later. Again, they find no signs of the military on the way beyond the overrun CEDA stations in Savannah and New Orleans and dozens of abandoned vehicles and guns. (Mostly guns.)
-It is then revealed that the military has only just now (three or four weeks after the Infection manifested) begun to carpet-bomb (former) population centers. Graffiti left by the previous occupants of several safehouses claim that the military has been shooting zombies and survivors alike on sight.
-Even then, the outlook for the world is grim -- the games' writer has stated that the military's current, last-ditch plan is to load the evacuees onto cruise ships to escape the "worldwide infection." (If the New Survivors Carriers don't infect everyone on the ship first, that is.)

[bladesyz]

having just come back from a company sized combined arms (Tanks, Infantry and Engineers) urban warfare training i can say that any army can clear out an infested city no matter how large within a week. whenever the infantry had a positive enemy I.D. on a house we'd roll up and start blasting untill the building was declared rubble. If there was no positive I.D. then a machinegunner would first fire into the entry point and then the squad would enter immediatley positioning rifles aimed at every door. anyone coming through the door would get 3 bullets, two in the chest, one in the head.

wounded troops would be removed from the front lines to a casualty clearing area. this is inside a logistics centre under heavy guard by the reserve unit (and in Urban warfare there is usually a full company of infantry and one platoon of tanks standing in reserve)

and army life involves a lot of boredom. most units i know of have in their boredom developed weird what if scenarios and how to deal with it. A zombie apocalypse is one of them

You're making two assumptions that would never happen in a "real" zombie apocalypse:

1- The military or the government actually believing that zombies exist.
2- The military is given clearance to destroy civilian buildings (and thus cause horrendous collateral damage).

Imagine an unknown epidemic is discovered. It causes people to go berserk and attack other people. Do you really think that the government, or even the military command itself, will allow soldiers to start killing those people without even trying to subdue them first?

[Mikeavelli]

Contrary to Zombie Apocalypse scenarios, Health officials are VERY good at, and VERY willing to, establish Quarantines. Smallpox, tuberculosis, malaria, and (more recently) swine flu are just some examples of diseases which are almost completely wiped out in the western world.

If you call them "zombies" people won't take you seriously, but if doctors refer to it as a "virus that destroys higher brain functions, is extremely contagious, and causes the infected to exhibit uncontrolled violent behavior until death." Then yes, people will take it seriously.

Honestly, all a General really has to do is walk into a politicians office and say, "Biowarfare. Terrorism." And he's got free reign to do pretty much anything.

Interesting, related article. (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/response/anthrax/features/2001/oct/011023.quarantine.html)

Military members (and even police) are generally authorized to use appropriate force when their lives are in danger. The first encounter with zombie apocalypse style zombies might have armed forces unwilling to use lethal force, but that won't last long. In general, once one person dies, the rest of his unit isn't going to hold back.


Lastly, in the event of zombies exceeding my expectations and overwhelming the world, I'm going to Finland.


http://www.smilespedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/27011.jpg

[Ozymandias]

A mere zombie apocalypse is no match for the isolationist might of President Madagascar.

[bladesyz]

Contrary to Zombie Apocalypse scenarios, Health officials are VERY good at, and VERY willing to, establish Quarantines. Smallpox, tuberculosis, malaria, and (more recently) swine flu are just some examples of diseases which are almost completely wiped out in the western world.


Wait... how is swine flu almost completely wiped out? We are still getting H1N1 warnings from time to time.

Also, the SARS experience tells us that health officials are actually pretty poor at establishing quarantines.

[TheEmerged]

Let's keep one thing in mind. Zombie Apocalypses are stories, generally in the Horror genre. As such they need to keep the tension alive, and competent authority figures (especially armed ones) have a way of degrading that.

That's why in monster movies it always gets quickly established that there's no chance of outside help and that guns don't work. Seriously, you couldn't do the traditional Camp Slasher these days without having to explain why everyone's cell phone has stopped working (just to throw one example out there).

But the real reason my vote is with the military? I know people in the military.

I'm not just being sentimental. You haven't met a crowd that gets more interested in "what would I do if..." scenarios :smallcool:

[Mikeavelli]

Wait... how is swine flu almost completely wiped out? We are still getting H1N1 warnings from time to time.

Also, the SARS experience tells us that health officials are actually pretty poor at establishing quarantines.

Viruses rarely go away completely, but compare H1N1 and Swine Flu these days (Dozens, maybe hundreds of deaths) with Earlier incidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic) involving millions of deaths.

[warty goblin]

Also note that it's a lot harder to spot somebody with a mild fever and headcold than a shambling, blood spattered wreck trying rip out somebody's throat. The latter in particular is unlikely to be allowed on an airplane, and probably can't drive a car.

[Sipex]

It would really really depend but I don't doubt the army would be a lot more competant than usually portrayed.

That said, I believe a Left 4 Dead or 28 Days Later style infection would have the best chance. The Zombies remain alive and the disease is basically a highly infectious form of rabies which doesn't cause death to the infected. The disease would several avenues of infection including less detectable means like immune carriers.

To give it a real chance, most mammals would need to be viable targets for the infection too ala: Resident Evil. Especially birds. If birds can spread the disease then it'll be nigh impossible to contain the disease.

[warty goblin]

It would really really depend but I don't doubt the army would be a lot more competant than usually portrayed.

That said, I believe a Left 4 Dead or 28 Days Later style infection would have the best chance. The Zombies remain alive and the disease is basically a highly infectious form of rabies which doesn't cause death to the infected. The disease would several avenues of infection including less detectable means like immune carriers.

To give it a real chance, most mammals would need to be viable targets for the infection too ala: Resident Evil. Especially birds. If birds can spread the disease then it'll be nigh impossible to contain the disease.

At that point however you'd have to consider the zombie plague essentially a side effect of the illness, and not even the primary transmission vector.

[Sipex]

I don't see that as a problem, either way, there would be zombie-like beings and they'd be a significant threat.

[Worira]

Birds aren't mammals.

[Sipex]

Birds aren't mammals.

Regardless of the fact that I said mammals earlier on the point still stands, if birds are also affected by the disease (and there are diseases which can affect humans and birds) then it would mean very bad things for anyone trying to contain the disease.

(This is also assuming that the disease affects birds in the same way, allowing it to spread back to humans after the bird has flown to an un-infected area)

[warty goblin]

I don't see that as a problem, either way, there would be zombie-like beings and they'd be a significant threat.

Except once you hit a high infection rate disease that's spread by a lot of ways like that, the humans become the easiest to stop vector. Simply put against even a remotely organized force equipped with firearms designed any time in the last century, a mindless being that has to get within four feet to be a threat is trivial to stop.

If all mammals are fair game, I'd be far less worried about people, and far more worried about mice.

[Sipex]

Ah, I see what you're getting at.

The only other viable way this would work would have to be similar to Steven King's 'The Stand' where those who can carry don't even know they're infected for a week and even then the symptoms don't really start ramping up to danger levels until a bit later.

[Forum Explorer]

A good zombie would be a type of parasetic brain fungus. It attacks people but thats just a side effect. Than it eventrually releases spores that infects even more people.

[Erloas]

If you look around in L4D its fairly apparent that whatever virus is causing it seemingly blankets an area almost all at once. It transmits via the air (even hinted at in the fact that several of the rescue drivers ended up becoming zombies soon after picking up the survivors, the train and helicopter(s) for sure).

Given that a lot of people were bunkered down, some even still with guns, and otherwise in situations where they weren't being chewed on by the earlier generation of zombies, it would almost seem as if the virus was sporish in nature and it could ride on the winds and blanket an area turning everyone into zombies in a very short period of time.

[LordShotGun]

I was actually trying to get people to think about how the military would counter massive numbers of special infected rather then the at maximum FOUR you get in L4D and L4D2.

How would you react if anywhere from 3-6 tanks came charging at you?

What would happen if your squad walked into a nest of hunters (dozen or more)?

What if one or more people get splashed by a boomer?

What if a stray grenade intended to clean out a room or a group of commons startles a witch with some shrapnel?

Smokers, spitters, and chargers don't seem that dangerous in just about any amount unless spitter acid can damage vehicles (unlikely but possible).

If we are taking left 4 dead kill counts at the end of a campaign into consideration then it is something like an average 10 of EACH special infected per 500-1000 common infected and about 5-6 tanks which in a city of millions is a lot of frigging specials and HUNDREDS of tanks.

Just the small port town in which the passing takes place has three tanks at once not including the several OTHER tanks that come during the last level.

[Spartacus]

This (http://www.l4d.com/comic/) seems slightly relevant to some of the discussion occurring here.

[Erloas]

Smokers, spitters, and chargers don't seem that dangerous in just about any amount unless spitter acid can damage vehicles (unlikely but possible).
Well a spitter seems to spit a type of acid. It will destroy gas tanks, not sure about weapons or other items though. Of course that might be for game balance, and obviously the world isn't destructible for gameplay reasons. I think it would be safe to assume the spit would probably eat through metal. Not a tanks worth of metal, but probably lighter vehicles (like aircrafts)

[bladesyz]

But the real reason my vote is with the military? I know people in the military.


So do I, but that still doesn't address my point that in the early stages, the military wouldn't be willing to risk the amount of collateral damage needed to contain the outbreak.

Also, I think people are underestimating the danger of a horde of beings who can only be killed by a bullet to the head. Machine guns can only slow them down a little big. Even the zombies who gets their legs shot off will continue to crawl forward. Grenades will also be ineffective unless the shrapnel destroys the brain.



Also note that it's a lot harder to spot somebody with a mild fever and headcold than a shambling, blood spattered wreck trying rip out somebody's throat. The latter in particular is unlikely to be allowed on an airplane, and probably can't drive a car.


Except that infected people (who has not died yet) *can* take an airplane or drive a car. People can also fight off the flu virus like 90% of the time: you're constantly exposed to various flu strains, and you only occasionally get sick. The zombie plague, however, requires only one exposure, and you're screwed.



Viruses rarely go away completely, but compare H1N1 and Swine Flu these days (Dozens, maybe hundreds of deaths) with Earlier incidents involving millions of deaths.


I don't think you really want to compare currently medical technology with those of early 20th century. Don't confuse the low lethality of flu today with effectiveness in epidemic control. Remember those ads telling you to sneeze into your elbow and to wash your hands frequently? Those are an essential part of flu epidemic control. That's not going to help against a zombie plague.

[Lord Raziere]

how to get rid of zombies and their virus:

break out the flamethrower-wielding robots and start burning breaking their legs and burning them to ashes.

[HalfTangible]

The only reason the phrase 'zombie apocalypse' even exists in the fear center of any living human are the dual facts that zombies can infect with the smallest of wounds, and are nearly impossible to kill if their head is intact.

...

Those two things are, as a matter of fact, utterly terrifying enough that the human subconscious decides 'ok thats enough im scared now'

Think about it. A zombie doesn't need to be smart to wound you - it just needs to get open it's mouth or scratch you, which it is probably already doing.

But i digress.

Possibly the military will do something smart like immobilize every zombie they can before trying for headshots to prevent them from getting too close, or bottling them up, or building a trench. But since the zombies would begin in a population center, it would be difficult to keep all of them back with the supplies a military base or two would have. And that's assuming quarantine goes up in time.

Personally though, i think the most likely scenarios for human extinction are radiation burst and a world nuclear war. The former we can't do anything about. And the latter is pretty much inevitable given that people are 45% stupid and 50% crazy and the remaining 5% will stay the heck out of it if at all possible.

[Lord Raziere]

Personally though, i think the most likely scenarios for human extinction are radiation burst and a world nuclear war. The former we can't do anything about. And the latter is pretty much inevitable given that people are 45% stupid and 50% crazy and the remaining 5% will stay the heck out of it if at all possible.

Wow, even I'm not that cynical.

Sure there is at least 6% who will stay the heck out it? :smallamused:

[Clintodon]

Surprised no one's brought up World War Z yet (book giving an after-account of a major world-wide zombie outbreak, referred to as "World War Zombie". Author is Max Brooks). The military has major issues before a major change in doctrine, but afterwards they do an admirable job of sweeping the nation.

The World War Z zombies' main advantages are 1. People's initial disbelief, 2. Inaccurate information (belief that the zombie disease is something curable, a fake "vaccine" [works on rabies, not zombification], not knowing how to kill them [have to destroy the brain]), 3. Morale once the outbreak is widespread (crazy, hard to kill cannibals are trying to kill everyone and turn them into more crazy cannibals! AAAIIIEEE!) and 4. The Big One: Logistics. After the initial outbreak allows the majority of major city populations to become infected, there are literally millions of zombies swarming around. The world's production and supply lines are completely and utterly trashed. Getting food, ammunition, and other necessaries is a major issue. (Hey, there's a reason all those zombie survival games have the players scrabbling for any resources that they can scrounge - no one's making any more for the time being, or bringing in new supplies.)

Then on to tactics. The military's weapons are designed to wound as much as kill (wound someone and they take up support personnel for treatment), and you can only kill the zombies with headshots. Even with perfect accuracy, you need, quite literally, tons of ammunition, and soldiers are trained to go for body shots - adjusting for headshot marksmanship takes time. And if you don't take out the brain, the zombies will just keep on coming until they disintegrate. Bombs? They take out some zombies, but leave a lot of them as "crawlers", just waiting for someone to get near them. And it takes way too much fuel and infrastructure to drop a few bombs from a jet and take out, say 10 of 10,000 or more zombies. Tanks? Those machine guns aren't exactly made for precision, so good luck with headshots. Tank cannon are primarily for destroying armored targets (other tanks), not zombies - you can kill a few zombies very thoroughly, but the ammo's not going to go very far. Even high explosive ammo is mainly going to make zombie "crawlers", unless the Z's get a close to direct hit. And you still have the fuel issue - tanks are NOT fuel-efficient, and take a lot to go a fairly short distance. Fire? Takes a lot to turn a zombie to ash, and while you're burning it it's coming for you unperturbed (zombies feel no pain).

The book's scenario assumes that the outbreak becomes major before the Army is fully mobilized, and that it takes time for the Army's doctrine and tactics alter to effectively address the zombie problem, but it does give a plausible account of how zombies could (given their existence as detailed in the book) nearly genocide the (living) human race.

Went long, but wanted to get the book's main points in.

tl;dr Check out World War Z - given zombie's existence in the first place, it's a (disturbingly) plausible scenario. In the book, check out the account of the "Battle of Yonkers" for the problems with zombie fighting according to real-life doctrines and tactics from a soldier's eye-view.

[Forum Explorer]

zombies are pathetic. The military would clean them up easily because they can't fly. Plus they can't think. A chopper flying around town would attach all the zombies and lure them into a nice easy trap of going out of town where they can be easily bombed. Than some nice clean up for those few zombies who got trapped. But that won't take too much effort just time and excessive force.

The only chance a zombie would have is if they have special zombies like in L4D or some other zombie stories. Even then their special abilities just means its slightly harder to kill them and stratagy will need to be used.

The zombies biggest weakness is that they don't heal and they are clumsy. Even walked around an evenly paved town a zombie will wear down their feet pretty fast. Afterall they would never build up any callouses or avoid things like nails and broken glass. So they would injure their feet which they would make worse by walking on all day until the skin wore away and they began ripping the flesh and muscle by trying to walk on it. Soon they can't walk due to having ruined feet and now must crawl. But they have the same problem now with their hands but worse because it requires more force to move(and thus harder on the body) and they're wearing out their legs by dragging them. I'd give them a month before none of them could walk. Another week and they'd be immobile.

They don't need to be shot in the head. Shoot their arms or legs if its easier and you get a monty python black knight. Or just shoot them in the head. Its not that hard to figure out. Even if a platoon doesn't figure it out and a zombie gets into close combat their trained to stab them in the neck and head. Which would kill the zombie and clue them in. Plus the body armor soilders wear is pretty bite resistant. Its designed to stop bullets, a few teeth will be child's play.

The cops would be able to handle a zombie outbreak. These things aren't exactly subtle. They would see one, shoot it, it wouldn't die so they would try shooting its head or legs in case it was wearing a kelvar vest. Then after an autopsy they would figure out that they need to shoot them in the head. So they do. Problem solved.

Hell how do the zombies even infect ordinary people? The average person on seeing a zombie would call 911. Because a zombie looks like crap. They also wouldn't let it get close to them because they look unnatrual and scary. They wouldn't get caught by them because zombies move really slow. They wouldn't panic because zombies move really slow. I don't see how a person who moves at the speed of my grandma on crutchs is scary. Horrifying perhaps but only after you start to think about it. The only people it would get are cripples, the elderly, babies, the sick, and the injured. All of which don't make for very strong zombies.

[Worira]

Yes, because a daisy cutter is going to take out 10 zombies. And a minigun is just going to slow a zombie down. Right.

[warty goblin]

I was actually trying to get people to think about how the military would counter massive numbers of special infected rather then the at maximum FOUR you get in L4D and L4D2.

How would you react if anywhere from 3-6 tanks came charging at you?

With a tank. Except mine has a 120mm smoothbore cannon loaded with high explosive shells and more than enough armor to shrug off the worst a zombie tank can dish out.


What would happen if your squad walked into a nest of hunters (dozen or more)?
Shoot them.

(I should point out that at least in the USMC, a squad is four fireteams of four men each, so sixteen soldiers total. A dozen or more hunters are dead meat).

What if one or more people get splashed by a boomer?
Shoot the zombies if we couldn't shoot the boomer first.

What if a stray grenade intended to clean out a room or a group of commons startles a witch with some shrapnel?
Shoot it.

Remember, there's nothing in L4d that can't be killed by being shot enough by a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buck. The actual military has things lots nastier than that. Close air support comes to mind.

[Spartacus]

Also, I think people are underestimating the danger of a horde of beings who can only be killed by a bullet to the head.

I'd like to point out that in a large amount of media (L4D and RE games, for example), headshots are by no means a necessity for killing off the undead.

Also, zombies are popular and varied enough that we really need to specify which zombies we are discussing, as it is very possible (some might say probable) that every person in this thread has a different idea of what a zombie is, never mind misconceptions of military hardware and administration, etc.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd like to point out that in a large amount of media (L4D and RE games, for example), headshots are by no means a necessity for killing off the undead.

I'd like to point out that even in the media that headshots are required you can still cripple a zombie pretty easily. And a crippled zombie is useless. Seriously its like picking a fight with baby. It can't actrually hurt you unless you let it.

[Worira]

I'd like to point out that even in the media that headshots are required you can still cripple a zombie pretty easily. And a crippled zombie is useless. Seriously its like picking a fight with baby. It can't actrually hurt you unless you let it.

They'll bite your legs off!

[BladeofOblivion]

I'd like to point out that in a large amount of media (L4D and RE games, for example), headshots are by no means a necessity for killing off the undead.

Also, zombies are popular and varied enough that we really need to specify which zombies we are discussing, as it is very possible (some might say probable) that every person in this thread has a different idea of what a zombie is, never mind misconceptions of military hardware and administration, etc.

This. Just to toss in yet another example, the Necromorphs from Dead Space are, in essence, Zombies crossed with Zerg. They are completely immune to headshots, but can be easily defeated by chopping off their limbs.

The military in that game failed pretty hard though...

[Axolotl]

The cops would be able to handle a zombie outbreak. These things aren't exactly subtle. They would see one, shoot it, I don't know about where you live but where I come from the police first reaction to seeing someone who is obviously ill/heavily injured is not to start shooting them.

That's the thing people seem to be forgetting in this thread, most governments do not respond to viral oputbreaks by sending in the military to exterminate everybody as their first reponse.

Yes the military could easily stop most film depictions of zombies, but military would not be organised to do that until after society has collapsed by whioch point zombies are no longer the main threat.

[Spartacus]

And another thing people seem to forget is zombies are goddamn popular. They are featured often in popular media. People know what a zombie is, by and large. Why does everyone assume if zombies suddenly rose from the earth we'd suddenly forget everything we've ever learned about zombies?

[Forum Explorer]

I don't know about where you live but where I come from the police first reaction to seeing someone who is obviously ill/heavily injured is not to start shooting them.

That's the thing people seem to be forgetting in this thread, most governments do not respond to viral oputbreaks by sending in the military to exterminate everybody as their first reponse.

Yes the military could easily stop most film depictions of zombies, but military would not be organised to do that until after society has collapsed by whioch point zombies are no longer the main threat.

If I saw a zombie and somehow all the zombie media just didn't exist I wouldn't think that's an injured person walking towards me. That's a ******* corpse walking towards me. Humans are really good at identifying a corpse and aren't trusting enough to allow one to walk up to them.

A police officer would give a warning to stop and perhaps to lie down. But if the zombie kept advanceing they would either shoot it or taz it. And a tazer would drop a zombie momentarily in which they would handcuff the zombie. At which point they would figure out its not alive, if they had somehow missed that part already.

[Axolotl]

If I saw a zombie and somehow all the zombie media just didn't exist I wouldn't think that's an injured person walking towards me. That's a ******* corpse walking towards me. Humans are really good at identifying a corpse and aren't trusting enough to allow one to walk up to them. You know how people identify a corpse? By the fact it isn't moving, zombies do move that's what differentiates them from corpses. A sane person upon seeing a zombie will not immediatly realise that it's a zombie, grab a gun and then going a killing spree to wipe them oput, that's the actions of a severly deranged psychopath. Most people will assume they're simply diseased because that's rational assumption. Now yes their first response is likely going to be to avoid the zombie but it won't be to open fire.


A police officer would give a warning to stop and perhaps to lie down. But if the zombie kept advanceing they would either shoot it or taz it. And a tazer would drop a zombie momentarily in which they would handcuff the zombie. At which point they would figure out its not alive, if they had somehow missed that part already.Where do you live that the police's response to disease is to open fire? And even if they do what you're suggesting trying to restrain a zombie gives it more than ample oppertunity to infect whoever's doing so.

[Forum Explorer]

You know how people identify a corpse? By the fact it isn't moving, zombies do move that's what differentiates them from corpses. A sane person upon seeing a zombie will not immediatly realise that it's a zombie, grab a gun and then going a killing spree to wipe them oput, that's the actions of a severly deranged psychopath. Most people will assume they're simply diseased because that's rational assumption. Now yes their first response is likely going to be to avoid the zombie but it won't be to open fire.

Where do you live that the police's response to disease is to open fire? And even if they do what you're suggesting trying to restrain a zombie gives it more than ample oppertunity to infect whoever's doing so.

Another good way to identify a corpse is open injuries that aren't puping out blood. Or the complete loss of body language. Or slack facial muscles with eyes that don't focus on anything. Or by the pallor of their face. People are more likely to mistake a living person as a corpse than a corpse as a living person. Zombies aren't vampires they cannot mistaken for a living human.

I'm not suggesting that a normal person would immediatly get a gun and start killing zombies. But they would do everything in their power to prevent it from getting too close. Usually this means walking away at a normal speed. If necessary it means running past the zombie.

I can't think of a single disease that could be mistaken for being a zombie. You can still talk when your sick and can usually ask for help. Or you stay still and shiver. A sick person is clearly in pain and will generally be coughing is much different than a corpse that is stumbling towards you and moaning. Even if someone did mistake it for a sickness they wouldn't let them get close.

I'm not saying a policeman's response to disease will be to shoot the sick. I'm saying their response to a stranger who looks like a corpse who is lurching towards them will be to tell them to stop moving and when that fails either shoot them or taz them. A zombie getting tazed would have a similar effect to a human getting tazed. They would drop to the ground from their muscles incontrollably seizing up. Once on the ground another couple tazings to keep the zombie mostly helpless than chackle its arms so it can't grab you. Than push its uncoordinates *** into a secure location. Its hard to fail to notice a zombie trying to bite you and if it kept trying they would probly seal its mouth shut. But as soon as they touch it any chance of it being mistaken for human is gone and they'll call for backup to figure out what to do with it. Soon the military and the goverment will get involved to figure out what it is.

[Mikeavelli]

I don't think you really want to compare currently medical technology with those of early 20th century. Don't confuse the low lethality of flu today with effectiveness in epidemic control. Remember those ads telling you to sneeze into your elbow and to wash your hands frequently? Those are an essential part of flu epidemic control. That's not going to help against a zombie plague.

Yes, I do, that's the point.

Modern medical technology has gotten very good. The specific steps of preventing infection are slightly different (don't let zombies bite you! Avoid contact with infected tissue\fluids, quarantine the infected, etc). But we're very good at determining how diseases are transmitted and distributing the information on how to prevent infection to the masses. Zombie apocalypse scenarios absolutely depend on officials not doing the very things health officials do in the real world when confronted with a possible epidemic.

[hr]

Zombies, having open wounds and being in a visible state of decay easily fall into the Uncanny valley, allowing humans to differentiate them between "another human" and "Creepily inhuman."



Where do you live that the police's response to disease is to open fire? And even if they do what you're suggesting trying to restrain a zombie gives it more than ample oppertunity to infect whoever's doing so.


When an officer is under threat of bodily harm, their usual response is to respond with force. A zombie could infect a small number of officers before they note "officer down!" and respond with deadly force.

[warty goblin]

And even if the police's first reaction isn't to shoot the zombie, their second reaction - once it starts gnawing on whomever is convenient - certainly will be.

We really aren't talking a low profile disease here. Once word gets out, and thanks to modern communications this will at least equal, and probably best the speed of transmission, organizing a response shouldn't be that hard. See a shambling, bloody person-thing chasing people and trying to eat them? Bust a cap in its face. If possible issue a warning first, and/or firing a warning shot just to be as sure as practically executable that it isn't some poor non-zombied schmuck just having a really bad day, the proceed with the shooting.

In the cases of people with possible zombie-induced injuries, try shackling them to something non-movable, and posting a guy with a rifle in the general vicinity. Let 'em sit there for whatever the incubation period of the disease happens to be, if they don't try to eat anybody they're free to go. Otherwise put a hole in their face.

[Ricky S]

I cannot bear how retarded the military is made to look in all of the zombie films. People would realise very quickly that they are dead especially since we are exposed to so many zombie films right now. You cant tell me that if a zombie apocalypse happened now people wouldnt realise it. The reason why zombie films arent realistic in this sense is because otherwise there will be no movie. It would just be watching the military slaughtering zombies.

Now if the zombies can only spread the virus through bites then the military will have control of the situation very quickly. They will issue martial law and then kill anyone on the streets. Once that happens the majority of the zombies will be killed then they can sweep through the houses and buildings killing any lingering zombies. Even if it hits a major population centre they would quarantine the area and then kill all of the zombies with bombs or just sustained fire. If they are slow zombies then it is even easier. People just have to close their doors and zombies would have a difficult time getting in. The biggest threat is not the zombies but the disruption they would cause. Ie the loss of food and possibly water as people fight them off and neglect their jobs.

If the virus is airborne then it will be more difficult as it would be like l4d minus the special infected. Without the special infected the military would still be able to bring it under control. Also it would be highly unlikely that the virus would have spread across the entire world so the rest of the world would be able to assist. Now if you think that how could an airborne virus not be spread then just look at bird flu or swine flu. Despite how contagious it was only about 500 people were infected each time it "broke" out because the health organisations are so vigilant about disease control.

@axolotl: Luckily I am a psychopath. I am studying to become a police officer and I am obsessed with zombies. I can guarantee that if a zombie apocalypse occurs in Australia I will be there putting them down for good.

[Storm Bringer]

How would you react if anywhere from 3-6 tanks came charging at you?

What would happen if your squad walked into a nest of hunters (dozen or more)?

What if one or more people get splashed by a boomer?

What if a stray grenade intended to clean out a room or a group of commons startles a witch with some shrapnel?

Smokers, spitters, and chargers don't seem that dangerous in just about any amount unless spitter acid can damage vehicles (unlikely but possible).



to exploit a loophole in the L4d set up, Nerve Gas to each. just go out thier in full NBC gear, and carpet bomb the area with nerve gasses. Leathal doses are a single breath. takes a few minutes to kill, but it will kill pretty much every breathing thing in the area. they attack the biochemisty of the target, so it works on pretty much every living being equally, so it would clear out possible vectors as well.

yes, you would kill trapped civillians, but you would, at least in the L4D set up, where the Infected are still alive, kill 95%of the zombies.

[bladesyz]

I'd like to point out that in a large amount of media (L4D and RE games, for example), headshots are by no means a necessity for killing off the undead.

Also, zombies are popular and varied enough that we really need to specify which zombies we are discussing, as it is very possible (some might say probable) that every person in this thread has a different idea of what a zombie is, never mind misconceptions of military hardware and administration, etc.

You know guys, this is starting to sound like claims that vampires are easy to beat because they're afraid of crosses and can't enter homes uninvited.

You're all basing the argument that the military would win because you think a "real world" zombie apocalypse will have the same characteristics as movie zombies.

Well, this is kind of like meta-gaming. Obviously, there are no real zombies in the world, so a "military vs zombie" argument must be based on a fictional setting.

Further, because zombies are interesting and we're talking about them, they have to conform to a few key characteristics, (otherwise they would just be some new-fangle monster):

1- They are Undead. They do not have any of the needs of the living. They can survive any injury except the destruction of the brain.

2- They can infect living humans through the smallest bites.

3- They hunger for the flesh of the living, but are otherwise not very bright.

Okay, let's work on those 3 premises, and forget everything else we know. Here are characteristics of the zombies in our scenario that the military has no clue about:

1- While zombies can only be destroyed by brain damage, the only vulnerable part of their brain is the cerebellum (http://projectflexner.sites.medinfo.ufl.edu/files/2009/04/brain-regions.jpg) and small parts of nearby areas. The neocortex is largely as dead as the rest of their body, so a simple headshot won't do it: the bullet needs to hit a fairly small part of the brain.

2- Zombies do not heal wounds, and their outer appearance will decay over time. However, their central nervous system and motor control will not decay. A zombie's mobility is related to their overall integrity. A newly dead, largely undamaged zombie is able to run, while a zombie with its lower body shot off is forced to crawl for as long as it exists. Zombies are also generally tougher than humans. Their muscles and bones can withstand traumas that otherwise would gravely injure humans. They can keep running with holes in their legs (albeit a bit slower), and bullets need to be high caliber direct hits to shear off their limbs. They can generally survive shrapnels unimpeded.

3- Zombie bites can kill, but not at a 100% rate. Survivability is low, in the order of 5% and depends on general health and toughness of an individual. Individuals who manage to survive a zombie bite become immune to the infection.

4- No one knows how the zombies first rose. There are reports of unbitten people rising from death, and of bitten people who never re-animated. Generally speaking, people who die from zombie bites are much more likely to rise as zombies, though this is not 100% either.

5- Zombies display the intelligence of rabid dogs, with an utter lack of fear of death.

[Sipex]

Alright, sounds good enough for me. You're the OP.

These sound very similar to World War Z zombies in a way. Do they bear the same resistance to explosives? (IE: Does Max Brooks know what he's talking about?)

Essentially, only a small part of the explosion (compared to the rest) is lethal to the zombies, and that's near the epicenter. The zombies there will be torn apart.

Those a bit further might lose limbs but that's it. Turning them into crawlers.

From there, some might get knocked down but they're otherwise fine. Max explains this as the shockwave of a bomb is what usually kills most people and the zombies are immune to this (for reasons I can't remember, something to do with lack of mosture in their bodies).

[bladesyz]

Alright, sounds good enough for me. You're the OP.

These sound very similar to World War Z zombies in a way. Do they bear the same resistance to explosives? (IE: Does Max Brooks know what he's talking about?)


No idea, but you've given me something to look for next time I'm in the library! ;)



From there, some might get knocked down but they're otherwise fine. Max explains this as the shockwave of a bomb is what usually kills most people and the zombies are immune to this (for reasons I can't remember, something to do with lack of mosture in their bodies).

I believe hydrostatic shock is largely a myth, but certainly zombies are pretty resistant to concussive effects seeing as how they don't have to worry about concussions and internal hemorrhages.

Oh, and a few other factors to consider:

1- Fear. As mentioned, people are scared ****less of walking corpses. I'd say 95% of the general population, and a good chunk of trained soldiers, would run away in a panic when seeing a decayed cadaver shambling (or worse, running) toward them.

2- Ambush. While zombies might not be particularly intelligent, they can do this almost by accident. When zombies aren't moving, there's really no way for someone to tell if that's a zombie or just a dead person. It makes picking one's way through an area littered with corpses a much more risky proposition.

[Hazzardevil]

A mere zombie apocalypse is no match for the isolationist might of President Madagascar.

I laughed at that, if madagascar is anything like it is in pandemic 2 then the madagascans are safe.

Anyway, from what I have heard about the left for dead zombies I know this:

There are teh standard ones that will walk and can lurch and run at you, if they can run fast consider this: They never get tired, even an athlete can't run forever.

The witchs are pretty much the most dangerous, I think they are reasonably intelligent and if teh zombies can evolve like in some fiction, (IE: get smarter, run faster, arm themselves,) Then once they are intelligent then they will just wait out a village and let them starve or ambush the humans that do walk around.

[Coidzor]

...I just had the thought of an XCOM-clone where the enemy are zombies of various types. Terror missions, bug hunts, figuring out who or what is making/causing them...

Rather interesting and horrifying at the same time. Mostly because of the flashbacks... The horrible, horrible flashbacks... Chryssalids, oh 12 Gods, the Chryssalids...

[Killer Angel]

Not all the Zombie Apocalypse have a single propagation point.
In Dawn of the Dead (remake) in a couple of days, we have thousands, if not millions, of "spreading areas".
You can be quick as you want, but if, between 2 days, you have a good quarter of the whole population infected, all scattered across ALL the cities and little towns of the world, every army will have a hard time.

[warty goblin]

Anyway, from what I have heard about the left for dead zombies I know this:

There are teh standard ones that will walk and can lurch and run at you, if they can run fast consider this: They never get tired, even an athlete can't run forever.


Unless zombies violate some pretty major laws of physics, they can't run forever. And if they can, I have an idea involving treadmills and solving the world energy crisis.

If the only way zombism spreads is by bite or other wound from an infected, it's really not going to spread very quickly. Most people are going to be eaten or seriously damaged by the zombie that injures them before they can turn.

If it's airborne, the disease obviously spreads a lot faster, but again the actual walking dead people aren't going to be the primary vector of communication for the same reason.

[Forum Explorer]

The biggest problem with zombies is how on Earth do they manage to get the first human? They are really dumb so they aren't hard to avoid or trick into crippling itself. It has to be an initial thing that infects millions or it just falls apart. It can stop infecting people afterwards and only be carried by zombies from that point on but that's a cruical problem to get past for zombies.


You would be surprised as how small of a cut can cripple a person. Or how bad a small wound can get if you keep using the muscles cut at a normal rate. So a gernade wouldn't kill a lot of zombies but would cripple most of them.

By the way the best zombie movie is 28 days later

[bladesyz]

The biggest problem with zombies is how on Earth do they manage to get the first human? They are really dumb so they aren't hard to avoid or trick into crippling itself. It has to be an initial thing that infects millions or it just falls apart. It can stop infecting people afterwards and only be carried by zombies from that point on but that's a cruical problem to get past for zombies.

People usually don't expect other people to bite them. They usually respond to someone who is lurching about by either ignoring him, or trying to help him.



You would be surprised as how small of a cut can cripple a person. Or how bad a small wound can get if you keep using the muscles cut at a normal rate. So a gernade wouldn't kill a lot of zombies but would cripple most of them.


I don't think you fully appreciate the term "living dead".

[Sipex]

I think we're presuming too much on the initial infection.

1) Take a disease which takes days or weeks to incubate.

2) Take a hobo like man or woman, lurching about. Unarmed.

3) Take a police officer and possibly a victim.

4) Someone gets bitten. The victim or maybe the officer as they struggle to contain the zombie.

5) No zombie gets shot. "Wait what?! Why not shoot the zombie?!" You say?

Consider this. You're a police officer and an UNARMED suspect bites you or goes to bite you. Are you allowed to use lethal force? No, no you're not. You get out the pepper spray, the taser, whatever. It's non-lethal.

"What if I know it's a zombie?" well, it's initial infection and ZOMBIES AREN'T REAL. You think to yourself "Oh crap, zombies are real! I better shoot this one!" Then your brain kicks in "What if this is just a sick hobo? Do you think the courts will accept 'But I thought he was a zombie! Honest!'"

It would take a bit of time before authorities are given permission to use lethal force.

[chiasaur11]

...I just had the thought of an XCOM-clone where the enemy are zombies of various types. Terror missions, bug hunts, figuring out who or what is making/causing them...

Rather interesting and horrifying at the same time. Mostly because of the flashbacks... The horrible, horrible flashbacks... Chryssalids, oh 12 Gods, the Chryssalids...

Man.

You know how ever mission in X-Com turns into a turkey shoot one you have psi?

This would turn into a turkey shoot once you start placing snipers upstairs and destroying the stairwells. AKA mission one for Chryssalid terror vets.

And I'm in the "This all ends like Shaun of the Dead" crowd.

One of the leading pastimes in the military, I hear, is "Zeds. Waddya do."

One well placed sniper could clean out a city or two. Whole thing becomes another bird flu.

[Coidzor]

People usually don't expect other people to bite them. They usually respond to someone who is lurching about by either ignoring him, or trying to help him.

If by ignoring them, you mean keeping distance to avoid getting vomited upon/assaulted/raped/mugged/diseases, then yes. That's one of my bigger pet peeves with zombie media, actually, the scenarios where someone just ignores the horribly threatening and disease-ridden hobo lurching towards them and gets bitten rather than using the oldest defense in the book, the brisk walking pace.

[bladesyz]

If by ignoring them, you mean keeping distance to avoid getting vomited upon/assaulted/raped/mugged/diseases, then yes. That's one of my bigger pet peeves with zombie media, actually, the scenarios where someone just ignores the horribly threatening and disease-ridden hobo lurching towards them and gets bitten rather than using the oldest defense in the book, the brisk walking pace.

Dude... zombies don't look decayed or ooze blood unless they've been dead for a while, or have suffered damages. It could just be a deathly pale guy with dull-looking eyes lurching about aimlessly.

Also, police and social workers actually do approach these kinds of people (the non-undead, just drunk/drugged-up kind), so they are at great risk of infection.

[Psyren]

Alex Mercer would curbstomp both sides :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Dude... zombies don't look decayed or ooze blood unless they've been dead for a while, or have suffered damages. It could just be a deathly pale guy with dull-looking eyes lurching about aimlessly.

Also, police and social workers actually do approach these kinds of people (the non-undead, just drunk/drugged-up kind), so they are at great risk of infection.

A zombie looks very different than a drunk or drugged up hobo. It would be like mistaking a manakin for a person.

[Sipex]

A newly deceased person looks a lot like a paler living person. You'd only start to notice once decay sets in.

[chiasaur11]

A newly deceased person looks a lot like a paler living person. You'd only start to notice once decay sets in.

It's a zombie. They don't move right. They don't sound right. They don't blink.

[Sipex]

But still, at the start of the outbreak ZOMBIES DON'T EXIST according to popular opinion.

Your normal person is going to assume that said zombie is either drunk, ill, high or any combination of these factors. They won't automatically assume 'zombie' until evidence is submitted to state "Zombies are real."

(Oh, or there could be a zombie convention in town. That would be a horrible time for a real zombie apocalypse to start)

Even if said zombie bit someone in front of me I'd just assume the person was deranged and probably call the police.

We're so well trained to believe this stuff isn't real that if it turned out to be real we'd be hard pressed to change our mindset.

[bladesyz]

It's a zombie. They don't move right. They don't sound right. They don't blink.

Uhhh... you go about noticing complete strangers *blinking*?

And how would you know they don't move right, or sound right? That's really not in line with what we see of most zombies in movies. In fact, it's a staple of zombie movies that most people don't realize there is something wrong with an infected/zombie at the beginning of the movie!

Come on guys, be realistic here. 99.9% of the population isn't going to look for signs of zombiehood just because the guy is acting weird!

[Innis Cabal]

Wait... how is swine flu almost completely wiped out? We are still getting H1N1 warnings from time to time.

Also, the SARS experience tells us that health officials are actually pretty poor at establishing quarantines.

I know this is a bit far back but I wanted to comment on this. The reaction of the CDC (And the WHO) during the SARS outbreak was insanely punctual and effective. Air travel, sea transport and other methods the disease may have been carried was shut down and monitored in a fairly good order. Take a look at the infection spread of the disease. You'll note that it mainly hit high population centers in the developing world. Take the U.S though for an example. Twenty seven cases were documented. Twenty seven. No deaths. 0. The fatality rate of SARS was 0 in the United States. It wasn't because we eat our veggies and go to bed before 9 either. It's because the disease and it's vectors of infection were identified swiftly, and methods and systems were put in place to slow the spread. Clearly it worked because looking at some of the other countries that got hit with the disease that do not have the ultrastructure to accommodate a swift and prompt response didn't fair so well.

In fact, there was such good tracking


The epidemic reached the public spotlight in February 2003, when an American businessman traveling from China became afflicted with pneumonia-like symptoms while on a flight to Singapore. The plane stopped at Hanoi, Vietnam, where the victim died in The French Hospital of Hanoi. Several of the medical staff who treated him soon developed the same disease despite basic hospital procedures. Italian doctor Carlo Urbani identified the threat and communicated it to WHO and the Vietnamese government; he later succumbed to the disease. The severity of the symptoms and the infection of hospital staff alarmed global health authorities fearful of another emergent pneumonia epidemic. On 12 March 2003, the WHO issued a global alert, followed by a health alert by the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Local transmission of SARS took place in Toronto, Ottawa, San Francisco, Ulan Bator, Manila, Singapore, Taiwan, Hanoi and Hong Kong whereas within mainland China it spread to Guangdong, Jilin, Hebei, Hubei, Shaanxi, Jiangsu, Shanxi, Tianjin and Inner Mongolia.
In Hong Kong the first cohort of affected people were discharged from the hospital on 29 March 2003. The disease spread in Hong Kong from a mainland doctor who arrived in February and stayed at the 9th floor of the Metropole Hotel in Kowloon Peninsula, infecting 16 of the hotel visitors. Those visitors traveled to Canada, Singapore, Taiwan and Vietnam, spreading SARS to those locations.[23] Another, larger, cluster of cases in Hong Kong centred on the Amoy Gardens housing estate. Its spread is suspected to have been facilitated by defects in the sewage system of the estate. Concerned citizens in Hong Kong worried that information was not reaching people quickly enough and created a website called sosick.org, eventually forced the Hong Kong government to provide information related to SARS in a timely manner.

We know all that. Frankly, a zombie outbreak wouldn't get off it's feet before the entire world shut it's doors.

[Killer Angel]

It's a zombie. They don't move right. They don't sound right. They don't blink.

Oh, look, that boy is covered with blood! what happened boy, let me help you...

And again, Resident Evil, with a single and defined center of infection, is one thing, while a Dawn of the Dead epidemic scenario, with millions of people infected in a matter of one day, is another whole matter.

[Sipex]

Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe a zombie apocalypse is feasable unless under the most ideal of conditions (and those conditions involve us having no chance since the disease is either heavily airborne, infectious with an incredibly long incubation period while being infectious or infects small animals)

[Forum Explorer]

Oh, look, that boy is covered with blood! what happened boy, let me help you...

And again, Resident Evil, with a single and defined center of infection, is one thing, while a Dawn of the Dead epidemic scenario, with millions of people infected in a matter of one day, is another whole matter.

Oh look that boy isn't breathing and doesn't have any body language. Run away from the scary stranger.


It would need to be a Dawn of the Dead scenario to even require the military to get involved. Anything else can likely be handled by the police. A crazy cannable get noticed fast and though it may bite a few people the police won't hesitate to defend themselves with force even if it is just a crazy hobo.

As for the living dead are invicible thing... it just makes them harder to kill completly. However cut some muscles or blow a hole in them will make that limb more or less useless. Which would get worse exponentially as they kept using that limb. If someone turned into a zombie without shoes than they would have ruined feet in a week and couldn't walk soon after. By two weeks they couldn't move. Remember every time you exert yourself you damage your muscles and you feel pain to prevent serious damage from occuring. zombies have to keep exerting themselves and will run their bodies into the ground quickly.

[chiasaur11]

Uhhh... you go about noticing complete strangers *blinking*?

And how would you know they don't move right, or sound right? That's really not in line with what we see of most zombies in movies. In fact, it's a staple of zombie movies that most people don't realize there is something wrong with an infected/zombie at the beginning of the movie!


That's because the majority of zombie film protagonists lack the sense God gave geese. We're talking a group where Shaun and Ed are exceptional tactical minds.

And the blinking thing isn't going to be consciously picked up often, but subconsciously?

Danger signals like crazy. People will stay the hell away. Sure, cops may get close because their job, but they're also trained how not to get bit by crazy hobos.

[Killer Angel]

Oh look that boy isn't breathing.

Good luck noticing such a thing from a safe distance (30 yards?)


and doesn't have any body language.

He's clearly shocked.


Run away from the scary stranger.


In many modern movies also zombies run. Fast.
And probably the boy is no stranger, but the son of your neighbours.


It would need to be a Dawn of the Dead scenario to even require the military to get involved.

In a DoD scenario, you go to sleep in a normal world. When you wake up, the world is half gone.
I agree that it's too much, but a DoD scenario is that: quick epidemic (with unknown way of transmission) on a worldwide scale, with no isolated center to apply a valid quarantene.

[bladesyz]

That's because the majority of zombie film protagonists lack the sense God gave geese. We're talking a group where Shaun and Ed are exceptional tactical minds.

And the blinking thing isn't going to be consciously picked up often, but subconsciously?

Danger signals like crazy. People will stay the hell away. Sure, cops may get close because their job, but they're also trained how not to get bit by crazy hobos.

Seeing as how there aren't any real walking corpses to actually test these assertions, I'm just going to have to disagree. Completely.

In any case, I feel that this is going rather off-topic, as I wasn't interested in exploring how a zombie infection would spread, but rather how effective the military would be in dealing with a full blow zombie apocalypse.

To summarize the debate on the spread of the infection, let me say this: zombies are dead people who can somehow still move. That means the cause of zombieism is either supernatural in origin, or so alien as to defy our every knowledge of biology and medicine. Therefore, I don't think it's going to be so easily contained as some posters indicate.

[Forum Explorer]

Okay well if we are just going with a straight military vs zombies than it comes down to zombie cannot do anything to a tank or a plane. It would take a lot of time but the military would win.

But that's boring so I'm going back to arguing about zombie body language :smalltongue: Honestly this is way to much fun.


Even in shock a person has body language. A walking corpse doesn't; it either holds itself stiffly due to rigor mortis or is floopy and only stiffens up when it sense you. Either would be very creepy and noticable. Drunks, the sick, and people on drugs all have very noticable body language, they also tend to make a lot of noise and will react to your words in various ways. I've never seen or heard of any of the above acting like a zombie.

Plus if it was someone familiar to me I would catch on even quicker because I know these people including how they react to shock and pain. If it was only passing familarity I would likely react in the same way. Actrually again I would be even more nervous around them, people acting in a completly different manner sends my paranoia through the roof.

For Fast Zombies its a different game. Seriously its completly different. Often in those cases its not a true zombie but an Infected (AKA they are still alive.) This is why 28 days later rocked. With a disease that spread so quickly while the Infected still held some reasoning. (such as don't jump off buildings, and could still swim) Plus it could be transffered by some animals. Still it was easily defeated by evacuating and starving them out.

[Coidzor]

Dude... zombies don't look decayed or ooze blood unless they've been dead for a while, or have suffered damages. It could just be a deathly pale guy with dull-looking eyes lurching about aimlessly.

See horribly threatening and diseased hobo.


Also, police and social workers actually do approach these kinds of people (the non-undead, just drunk/drugged-up kind), so they are at great risk of infection.

And I wasn't referring to the people who actually have enough milk of human kindness to offer aid or have to check out such suspicious behavior as part of their job. I was referring to the people who ignore the lurching, obviously messed up, likely doubly smelling from the bowel-movement of dying and from having been a hobo in life and then act all surprised when they get nommed. I'm tired of that scene.


A zombie looks very different than a drunk or drugged up hobo. It would be like mistaking a manakin for a person.

Even mistaking a zombie for "just a hobo," doesn't justify ignoring its approach and staying in the area. Generally humans avoid the poor and diseased and don't let them get up in their grill if they can help it.


Re: Zombie hordes. The simplest and worst tactic I can think of involves shooting their legs out from under them and then squishing their heads with vehicles. More wasteful would be using a tank as bait that attracted them with fire-teams and the tank's own secondary weapons cutting them down to allow for easy squishing. Or send 'em in full CBC gear and run over the things with snipers to deal with any climbers.

[Ricky S]

I think we're presuming too much on the initial infection.

1) Take a disease which takes days or weeks to incubate.

2) Take a hobo like man or woman, lurching about. Unarmed.

3) Take a police officer and possibly a victim.

4) Someone gets bitten. The victim or maybe the officer as they struggle to contain the zombie.

5) No zombie gets shot. "Wait what?! Why not shoot the zombie?!" You say?

Consider this. You're a police officer and an UNARMED suspect bites you or goes to bite you. Are you allowed to use lethal force? No, no you're not. You get out the pepper spray, the taser, whatever. It's non-lethal.

"What if I know it's a zombie?" well, it's initial infection and ZOMBIES AREN'T REAL. You think to yourself "Oh crap, zombies are real! I better shoot this one!" Then your brain kicks in "What if this is just a sick hobo? Do you think the courts will accept 'But I thought he was a zombie! Honest!'"

It would take a bit of time before authorities are given permission to use lethal force.

Actually thats not true. Police have the authority to use whatever weapon in whatever situation. It is not like they have an order they will use something in. Pepper Spray then taser then gun. It is judged by the individual police officer at the time of the incident. Now I am not saying that all police officers would immediately start shooting but if they did shoot it would be judged by the police commission whether the act was correct and most of the time it is. For example recently in the news two police officers shot and killed a man when he refused to drop the knives he was carrying. They were standing a good distance away and could have used tasers but due to the threat of the knives they shot him instead. They did the right thing in the situation.

As well as that if police approached a person who was ill and they didnt respond to them and suddenly started lurching towards them chances are the police would open fire.

Back to zombies: I think we can all safely agree that a zombie outbreak where biting is the only spread of infection would never reach the proportions seen in the movies. The only way that it would be possible is if it was airborne. Simply because after an initial outbreak everyone would go to there houses and lock themselves in. The area would be locked down. Then the police and army would sweep the streets and kill and zombies. Not to mention the survivors who would combat the zombies.

The military would have a pretty easy time really of clearing out the zombies. Simply because they have helicopters. Mobility is the greatest weapon the military has. It also would allow them to deploy snipers to the rooftops in infected areas where they would be able to pick off zombies at their leisure. Not to mention the ground forces who would be slowly moving forward killing zombies as they go.

[Mikeavelli]

But still, at the start of the outbreak ZOMBIES DON'T EXIST according to popular opinion.

That's just focusing on the word zombies. If it's sold to the public as "High infectious disease with no cure" or possibly "Biowarfare agent" people will believe it exists.

Similarly, cops would react to a zombie lurching towards them on a quest for delicious people-meat the same way they'd react to a drugged up hobo who's uncontrollably violent. This goes double a few days (yes days, not weeks or months or any of that incompetent-health-officials-nonsense) after the initial outbreak after officers have been briefed on the symptoms of the disease.

The "People won't believe it" will only last for a very short amount of time. In fact, it probably won't last past the first infection, when "diseased hobo" turns into "oh my god that guy is biting that person to death!" Word travels VERY fast when something like that happens, and before long people will just start shouting, "AHH GET AWAY!" whenever someone is even so much as stumbling around them. Your worst casualties are going to be police in the few incidents before health officials determine the condition is incurable.

[Killer Angel]

Back to zombies: I think we can all safely agree that a zombie outbreak where biting is the only spread of infection would never reach the proportions seen in the movies.

Of course, the menace is proportional to how dangerous is a zombie (http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1543/zombieinfographic1024.jpg).
I say that the thing it's very easy to stop, only if you have a single infected area.


That's just focusing on the word zombies. If it's sold to the public as "High infectious disease with no cure" or possibly "Biowarfare agent" people will believe it exists.


Agree


This goes double a few days (yes days, not weeks or months or any of that incompetent-health-officials-nonsense) after the initial outbreak after officers have been briefed on the symptoms of the disease.


True, but we couldn't have a single point of propagation.
Even with the biting type, if you have 200.000 zombies, scattered irregularly across the USA, from major towns to small village, it will be hard to cover all the situations, and it will be almost impossible to create quarantine zones. And even only a couple of days, can make a little disaster.

[bladesyz]

Okay well if we are just going with a straight military vs zombies than it comes down to zombie cannot do anything to a tank or a plane. It would take a lot of time but the military would win.


Helicopters and tanks require fuel. Enormous amounts of fuel.

Where are you going to find that kind of fuel in a ruined world where the technology for refining petroleum might be lost? How many zombies can you kill with even a large (but still limited) supply of fuel? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Those are just drops in an ocean when you consider that there are 6 BILLION zombies in a full blown Zombie Apocalypse!

Even if you use up the entire world's current supply of fuel and bombs, short of nuclear armageddon, you won't be able to destroy 6 billion zombies. Nevermind doing that in a ruined world where logistics would be a nightmare!

[Mewtarthio]

Those are just drops in an ocean when you consider that there are 6 BILLION zombies in a full blown Zombie Apocalypse!

At six billion zombies, it's already over. I don't think anyone could argue that the military has much of a chance when everyone's already dead. The trouble is, that's not much of a scenario to work with. Are we assuming that everyone in the world suddenly drops dead? That in and of itself is a nightmare that nobody could recover from, never mind the zombies. Or are we assuming that the military sat on its hands and did nothing until things got that bad? In that case, the question is just "If the military were horribly incompotent, could it combat zombies?" (the answer is no, almost by definition).

[Axolotl]

In any case, I feel that this is going rather off-topic, as I wasn't interested in exploring how a zombie infection would spread, but rather how effective the military would be in dealing with a full blow zombie apocalypse.Well the military could probably deal with the zombies without too much trouble when they've gotten organised. Hell even zombies on a 28 Days Later or Braindead levels of power wouldn't have the upperhand. Now urban area would pose the biggest problem but even there it would only take a few months to clear out.

The main problem is if the apocalypse has already happened then the government has already collapsed. Which mean nobodies organising the military and more importantly nobodies paying them either. By this point the zombies are no longer the threat, other survivors are, you can see this in most zombies films, other humans are a far bigger threat.

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't know about the rest of you, but if someone is stumbling around puking, I tend to avoid them REGARDLESS of whether they're undead.

[warty goblin]

I don't know about the rest of you, but if someone is stumbling around puking, I tend to avoid them REGARDLESS of whether they're undead.

This goes double when they start trying to chew on me.

[Murska]

Well, it's just generally a lot about what the zombies are like.

The military would really have trouble in a situation where the zombies are faster, stronger, immune to pain, fear and can only be killed by perfect headshots, don't need any kind of biological considerations for their movement (moved by 'magic strings attached to the limbs' or whatever) and such, and the outbreaks happen quickly in major population centers all over the country/world.

[TheArsenal]

Here is a foolproof Zombie Plan.

Have a building you can only access from a secret door in the ground (Zombies can push forward but not Down)

Shoot from the windows and grow veggies on top, in addition to livestock and the such.

[Illieas]

I don't know about the rest of you, but if someone is stumbling around puking, I tend to avoid them REGARDLESS of whether they're undead.

as i understand it today's zombie outbreak in fiction always start with a viral infection spread across large swath of land. I understand that most people would not enter the vacinity with a stumbling hobo like character.

however what if it was your family member that is suddenly sick would you not place them in bed and stay with them, or if it got worse would you not drive them to hospital.

depending on the speed of infection to zobification it can be between lying in bed and suddenly lunge at you or in your car where they will again lunge at you with your seatbelt on from either the seat next to you or the seat behind you. or what if they are just started shambling. it would just seem like they are in a stupor and most likely you would go to either get them to hospital or place at bed which again you would be bitten.

[Illieas]

Here is a foolproof Zombie Plan.

Have a building you can only access from a secret door in the ground (Zombies can push forward but not Down)

Shoot from the windows and grow veggies on top, in addition to livestock and the such.

it would require quite a bit of forethought and various thing to make it work. it also really hard as self sustaining requires quite of bit area to work. also you seem to forget that you require a replenishing source of clean water (not zombie infected water). otherwise yes a building with the first two stories empty and only access coming from the top would work to an extent. till thing start breaking down and you have no way to replace stuff.

[TheArsenal]

it would require quite a bit of forethought and various thing to make it work. it also really hard as self sustaining requires quite of bit area to work. also you seem to forget that you require a replenishing source of clean water (not zombie infected water). otherwise yes a building with the first two stories empty and only access coming from the top would work to an extent. till thing start breaking down and you have no way to replace stuff.

Yes I know. That was the short plan.

Long term involves windmill energy generation, and filter cleaning

But Most of the time the plan ends up working best if I kill myself to avoid zombification (If it infects the air).

[Axolotl]

Here is a foolproof Zombie Plan.

Have a building you can only access from a secret door in the ground (Zombies can push forward but not Down)

Shoot from the windows and grow veggies on top, in addition to livestock and the such.What do you do about other survivors?

[Mewtarthio]

The military would really have trouble in a situation where the zombies are faster, stronger, immune to pain, fear and can only be killed by perfect headshots, don't need any kind of biological considerations for their movement (moved by 'magic strings attached to the limbs' or whatever) and such, and the outbreaks happen quickly in major population centers all over the country/world.

Well, at that point, you might as well call it a demon warrior invasion instead of a zombie infection. Traditional zombies go more for a strength in numbers approach as opposed to being a threat individually.


however what if it was your family member that is suddenly sick would you not place them in bed and stay with them, or if it got worse would you not drive them to hospital.

depending on the speed of infection to zobification it can be between lying in bed and suddenly lunge at you or in your car where they will again lunge at you with your seatbelt on from either the seat next to you or the seat behind you. or what if they are just started shambling. it would just seem like they are in a stupor and most likely you would go to either get them to hospital or place at bed which again you would be bitten.

That's perfectly plausible. Still, once people actually start reporting these incidents, that sort of thing falls of rapidly. Worst case scenario (zombie catches several caretakers off-guard and none of the locals are trained in the use of firearms), the neighborhood has to evacuate. Disruptive, yes, but now everyone knows what to watch out for. I will concede, though, that if this sort of thing happens in a lot of places at once (say, a Dead Rising-style plot where terrorists infect a large number of unwitting victims), we could end up with a major crisis on our hands. At this point, though, the question becomes "How many places could our hypothetical terrorists infect at once without someone noticing and stopping them?"


it would require quite a bit of forethought and various thing to make it work. it also really hard as self sustaining requires quite of bit area to work. also you seem to forget that you require a replenishing source of clean water (not zombie infected water). otherwise yes a building with the first two stories empty and only access coming from the top would work to an extent. till thing start breaking down and you have no way to replace stuff.

This is survivor-side stuff. The survivors just have to last long enough for the military to rescue them or for the zombies to fall apart on their own (immunity to pain is not that great in the long run).

[bladesyz]

That's perfectly plausible. Still, once people actually start reporting these incidents, that sort of thing falls of rapidly. Worst case scenario (zombie catches several caretakers off-guard and none of the locals are trained in the use of firearms), the neighborhood has to evacuate. Disruptive, yes, but now everyone knows what to watch out for.


You're assuming everybody has perfect knowledge, when in reality, that's far from the truth even in the most mundane affairs, nevermind something supernatural or extremely alien.

In a zombie apocalypse, the only sure thing people know is that dead people are rising and hunger for the flesh of the living.

No one knows exactly how the infection is spread, or whether it's an infection at all (as opposed to, say, the wrath of God). There are reports that zombie bites are fatal, but no one can say whether that's 100% of the time, or 10% of the time, because no one has done any controlled studies.

Therefore, there will inevitably be people who insist that all those who are bitten must be infected and either shot in the head or locked up in a quarantine.

Now imagine your loved one has been bitten. Are you automatically going to write her off as lost? How do you know she won't get better with some rest? You'd also better hide that wound, otherwise the neighbors might form a lynch mob to demand her death/incarceration.

You've managed to hide her injury, but she's getting sicker by the day, until she finally succumbs. You're overcome with grief, you're in denial and you can't think rationally. Or perhaps she simply died when you're asleep. She suddenly wakes up and attacks you. You're bit, but you manage to fend her off and escape.

Now what do you do? Turn yourself in to the authorities and hope for a quick death? Or start running and hiding and hope that the wound is nothing major?

[Forum Explorer]

You're assuming everybody has perfect knowledge, when in reality, that's far from the truth even in the most mundane affairs, nevermind something supernatural or extremely alien.

In a zombie apocalypse, the only sure thing people know is that dead people are rising and hunger for the flesh of the living.

No one knows exactly how the infection is spread, or whether it's an infection at all (as opposed to, say, the wrath of God). There are reports that zombie bites are fatal, but no one can say whether that's 100% of the time, or 10% of the time, because no one has done any controlled studies.

Therefore, there will inevitably be people who insist that all those who are bitten must be infected and either shot in the head or locked up in a quarantine.

Now imagine your loved one has been bitten. Are you automatically going to write her off as lost? How do you know she won't get better with some rest? You'd also better hide that wound, otherwise the neighbors might form a lynch mob to demand her death/incarceration.

You've managed to hide her injury, but she's getting sicker by the day, until she finally succumbs. You're overcome with grief, you're in denial and you can't think rationally. Or perhaps she simply died when you're asleep. She suddenly wakes up and attacks you. You're bit, but you manage to fend her off and escape.

Now what do you do? Turn yourself in to the authorities and hope for a quick death? Or start running and hiding and hope that the wound is nothing major?

If someone in my famliy was bitten I would bind them and carefully record their symptoms and their descent into zombiehood. Once they were a zombie I would kill them without shedding a tear. If they managed to bite me in the process I would get my notes to some goverment scientists and copies to many other scientists. Than I would go out and try and kill as many zombies before I got to weak. At that point I would destroy myself.

[Anonymouswizard]

The issue really comes from a few question with our apocalypse: does it start from one location, or several. Is it in one country/landmass, or is it already global. Are the zombies alive or dead (taken care of, we are assuming they're undead). Are they destroyed by a shot to the brain or is it irrelevant. Is the general public well informed. Are they called ZOMBIES or by another name. How is the infection spread?

If we are going by the mindless undead hordes who propagate by bite, then the military can deal with it if the public is well informed. If they are fast it will be harder but humans should pull through as a species. The problems start when they are either smart or have some form of cunning. A fast but stupid zombie will zerg rush the opposing lines. A slow but smart zombie will set up an ambush wear shoes to stop it from losing mobility, and maybe even steal those lovely machine guns we are using against them. A fast and smart zombie will use its speed and other advantages to avoid situations that favour you and may try to disguise itself as a human survivor. But if one smart zombie can do this, just imagine what smart zombies who are relatively agile and can maintain a brisk walking pace will do in a horde.

And when did police officers get guns as standard. :smallconfused: I believe this issue even came up in the case of Derek Bentley.

[Mewtarthio]

You're assuming everybody has perfect knowledge, when in reality, that's far from the truth even in the most mundane affairs, nevermind something supernatural or extremely alien.

In a zombie apocalypse, the only sure thing people know is that dead people are rising and hunger for the flesh of the living.

No one knows exactly how the infection is spread, or whether it's an infection at all (as opposed to, say, the wrath of God). There are reports that zombie bites are fatal, but no one can say whether that's 100% of the time, or 10% of the time, because no one has done any controlled studies.

You're assuming people would treat this as a supernatural curse instead of a mundane (albiet horrific) disease. Symptoms: Widespread necrosis of the flesh combined with severe degradation of higher-level cognition and sudden outbursts of violence. Avoid contact with bodily fluids of infected individuals, especially if you have open wounds. Seek immediate treatment if wounded while struggling with infected individuals.

I'm not saying it's not a really scary thing to face, but people will still assume it is a disease until proven otherwise. If the infection is supernatural in origin, no one will find out until it's already under control.


Therefore, there will inevitably be people who insist that all those who are bitten must be infected and either shot in the head or locked up in a quarantine.

I doubt that many people will suggest shooting them in the head. Not before they've turned, at any rate (and at that point the victim's loved ones are probably going to seriously consider euthenasia anyway).


Now imagine your loved one has been bitten. Are you automatically going to write her off as lost? How do you know she won't get better with some rest? You'd also better hide that wound, otherwise the neighbors might form a lynch mob to demand her death/incarceration.

If my loved one is seriously ill and bedridden, I'm taking them to the hospital.

And stop treating a quarantine the same way as illegal imprisonment. It's a matter of public safety, whether it's a zombie plague or a drug-resistant strain of TB. If you ignore the quarantine, you are knowingly endangering people's lives, and they have every right to hate you.


Now what do you do? Turn yourself in to the authorities and hope for a quick death? Or start running and hiding and hope that the wound is nothing major?

Assume I run. Where will I go? My immediate neighbors will be really upset when they find out I've been covering up a contagious disease. I'm not getting past airport security, assuming the planes are still flying. If I display the symptoms among strangers, they're going to report me ASAP. All I can do is go to some local friends or family, and then roll the dice as to whether or not they are as stupid as me. Worst case: The plague doesn't spread outside the city.

[bladesyz]

You're assuming people would treat this as a supernatural curse instead of a mundane (albiet horrific) disease. Symptoms: Widespread necrosis of the flesh combined with severe degradation of higher-level cognition and sudden outbursts of violence. Avoid contact with bodily fluids of infected individuals, especially if you have open wounds. Seek immediate treatment if wounded while struggling with infected individuals.


Alright, let's treat it as a disease: a incurable, highly infectious disease that turns its victims into homicidal psychopathes.

Let's imagine what would happen if such an outbreak occurs.

The government is unable to treat this disease, and everyone who died under quarantine rises up as zombies. They now have 2 choices: they can either tell the public that, or they can cover it up and try to catch as many infected as they can.

In the first case, you will have people who either don't believe the government, or hope that they will be able to pull through. You will also have a massive panic on your hands as everyone tries to leave the city.

In the second case, you will have people who have no clue what's going on, but is damn sure they're not going to get dragged to some government quarantine only to be never seen again.

Either way, you're going to have a lot of people who would refuse forced quarantine, and try to leave the area.

EDIT:

Actually, think about it another way: forget zombies. Zombies don't exist. We don't live in a movie.

There has been reports of violent attacks that are linked to a new infectious disease. The primary means of infection seems to be physical wounds from contact with an infected. The symptoms are a lot like the flu: fever, exhaustion, etc.

The government is urging people who have been wounded to contact the police and be taken to quarantine. Those who go to quarantine are either never heard from again, or are confirmed dead days later.

Would YOU be willing to report in for quarantine? Or send your loved ones to it?

[Mewtarthio]

In the first case, you will have people who either don't believe the government, or hope that they will be able to pull through. You will also have a massive panic on your hands as everyone tries to leave the city.

I grant you your panic. That's what the national guard is for. Worst case scenario is one city plagued by riots, which is hardly apocalyptic. Panic should die down once we know that the disease isn't that infectious unless you actually touch the victims.

I also grant you the people in denial. However, everyone else is still terrified of the disease. They'll be watching the sick warily; if someone doesn't know their infected, everyone around them will still have a healthy sense of caution.

Not going to discuss the potential coverup. I agree; if the government's that stupid, we're in trouble.



There has been reports of violent attacks that are linked to a new infectious disease. The primary means of infection seems to be physical wounds from contact with an infected. The symptoms are a lot like the flu: fever, exhaustion, etc.

The government is urging people who have been wounded to contact the police and be taken to quarantine. Those who go to quarantine are either never heard from again, or are confirmed dead days later.

Would YOU be willing to report in for quarantine? Or send your loved ones to it?

What sort of paranoid nutcases do you take us for? When my grandmother died, I didn't blame the hospital; I blamed the heart attack. If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, goes into quarantine, and then turns up dead, well, I think the truth may be closer than you think, Mulder.

[Axolotl]

I grant you your panic. That's what the national guard is for. Worst case scenario is one city plagued by riots, which is hardly apocalyptic. Panic should die down once we know that the disease isn't that infectious unless you actually touch the victims.Woouldn't said riots be the perfect place for zombieism to spread though? Which would make it fairly apocalyptic, at least for that city.

[Worira]

You know something people tend to forget about fighting open fields full of zombies? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btEpF334Rtc)

[Mewtarthio]

Woouldn't said riots be the perfect place for zombieism to spread though? Which would make it fairly apocalyptic, at least for that city.

Apocalypses aren't exactly relative. The complete destruction of an entire city is an unbelievable tragedy, yes, but it isn't the end of the world. Besides, the topic's about military versus zombies. If the zombies nom up all the civilians, that just means the boys in uniform can unleash all the guilt-free dakka they want. :smallamused:

That being said, I do take issue with the idea that riots are zombie breeding grounds. Anyone who's bedridden with a zombie bite is in no condition to go out rioting. Anyone who already is a zombie will probably get blown away by the mob before getting too close. Swarm of zombies versus rioters? Yeah, that could end poorly for the living, but I'm not sure it would actually reach that level.

Unless we're dealing with Romero-style zombies, where any form of death gets you up and walking again, but that's a whole new can of worms.

[bladesyz]

I grant you your panic. That's what the national guard is for. Worst case scenario is one city plagued by riots, which is hardly apocalyptic. Panic should die down once we know that the disease isn't that infectious unless you actually touch the victims.

I also grant you the people in denial. However, everyone else is still terrified of the disease. They'll be watching the sick warily; if someone doesn't know their infected, everyone around them will still have a healthy sense of caution.


And what would the national guard do? Prevent people from leaving the city? (because you know, that's what people will do when they find out that there is an incurable contagious disease in their city!) How would they manage that, unless the city was an island or peninsula?



What sort of paranoid nutcases do you take us for? When my grandmother died, I didn't blame the hospital; I blamed the heart attack. If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, goes into quarantine, and then turns up dead, well, I think the truth may be closer than you think, Mulder.

It's great that you *THINK* you would be able to take what amounts to a death sentence for your family or yourself in stride.

However, for the 99.9% of people out there, they would rather take their chance hoping that the disease wouldn't kill them than go into some quarantine that no one has ever come out of alive. That brings us back to what spreads the infection and brings about the zombie apocalypse in the first place: mass exodus of panicking infected people.

[warty goblin]

And what would the national guard do? Prevent people from leaving the city? (because you know, that's what people will do when they find out that there is an incurable contagious disease in their city!) How would they manage that, unless the city was an island or peninsula?

Shut down the airport, blow up the train tracks and cut the roads? It's not that different than laying siege to a city, and this is something that armies can definitely do.



It's great that you *THINK* you would be able to take what amounts to a death sentence for your family or yourself in stride.

However, for the 99.9% of people out there, they would rather take their chance hoping that the disease wouldn't kill them than go into some quarantine that no one has ever come out of alive. That brings us back to what spreads the infection and brings about the zombie apocalypse in the first place: mass exodus of panicking infected people.
Tragically true, people are irrational dingbats. Which is why after the first city goes all undead shaped, you quarantine any others with major zombie problems all the more rigorously.

[Mewtarthio]

It's great that you *THINK* you would be able to take what amounts to a death sentence for your family or yourself in stride.

However, for the 99.9% of people out there, they would rather take their chance hoping that the disease wouldn't kill them than go into some quarantine that no one has ever come out of alive. That brings us back to what spreads the infection and brings about the zombie apocalypse in the first place: mass exodus of panicking infected people.

I'm not saying I'd take it in stride. When did I ever say that? I'm just saying I don't think most people would assume the government is executing perfectly healthy individuals.

[Ricky S]

Helicopters and tanks require fuel. Enormous amounts of fuel.

Where are you going to find that kind of fuel in a ruined world where the technology for refining petroleum might be lost? How many zombies can you kill with even a large (but still limited) supply of fuel? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Those are just drops in an ocean when you consider that there are 6 BILLION zombies in a full blown Zombie Apocalypse!

Even if you use up the entire world's current supply of fuel and bombs, short of nuclear armageddon, you won't be able to destroy 6 billion zombies. Nevermind doing that in a ruined world where logistics would be a nightmare!

Thats assuming that the entire population of the world is infected. Even if that did happen then all the military has to do is clear out a suitable island to live on. You should check out www.thezombiehunters.com The entire comic is based off survivors living on an island and making raids on the mainland.

[Killer Angel]

What sort of paranoid nutcases do you take us for? When my grandmother died, I didn't blame the hospital; I blamed the heart attack. If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, goes into quarantine, and then turns up dead, well, I think the truth may be closer than you think, Mulder.

Heart attacks are not contagious.
You daughter's got a little fever, which probably (you believe / hope) got nothing to do with this mysterious infection... do you really take her to the hospital, knowing that they'll put her in quarantine, without you and within a hundred of infected peoples?
Or do you try to leave the city with your family?
Sane peoples won't try to save their life and escape the guards, to leave the infected town?
One city, can be easily put in quarantine by the army, but 10 major cities? 20? there will be some hole in each perimeter.

The zombies will not escape. The carriers of the disease (not yet manifested), yes.


Traditional zombies go more for a strength in numbers approach as opposed to being a threat individually.


True, even if we cannot take it for certain (there are examples of nasty types of zombies: see Left 4 Dead)

[Ricky S]

True, even if we cannot take it for certain (there are examples of nasty types of zombies: see Left 4 Dead)

Short of magic though they could never exist.

[Killer Angel]

Short of magic though they could never exist.

I agree that, for simplicity's sake, we could only consider a unique type of zombies (be they slow or fast, dumb or smart), without mutations.

[Mewtarthio]

Heart attacks are not contagious.
You daughter's got a little fever, which probably (you believe / hope) got nothing to do with this mysterious infection... do you really take her to the hospital, knowing that they'll put her in quarantine, without you and within a hundred of infected peoples?
Or do you try to leave the city with your family?
Sane peoples won't try to save their life and escape the guards, to leave the infected town?
One city, can be easily put in quarantine by the army, but 10 major cities? 20? there will be some hole in each perimeter.

The zombies will not escape. The carriers of the disease (not yet manifested), yes.

It seems I misunderstood the earlier point. Yes, there will be people in denial. However, this falls into my earlier point: Where are they going to go? The airports will almost certainly be closed, and if things are really that bad, the roads might be cordoned off as well. Now in most zombie media, infected survivors pose an immediate safety risk, so you've got at the very most a few days before you succumb. And everyone else is going to be wary.

[bladesyz]

Shut down the airport, blow up the train tracks and cut the roads? It's not that different than laying siege to a city, and this is something that armies can definitely do.


The problem is, how to you enforce that blockade? You can shut down airports easily enough: just don't allow planes to take off (although you'll still have the odd private jet wanting to make a dash for it).

However, what do you do with roads and off road escapes? Do you think National Guards would be willing to shoot on fleeing civilians? How many military personnel would you need to contain millions of panicking people trying to leave the city?

Also, consider the fact that the zombie outbreak might not even originate in a developed nation. What if it started in India, or Mexico? By the time the world is even aware of what's happening, there could be millions or tens of millions of zombies pouring over the borders!


Thats assuming that the entire population of the world is infected. Even if that did happen then all the military has to do is clear out a suitable island to live on. You should check out www.thezombiehunters.com The entire comic is based off survivors living on an island and making raids on the mainland.

haven't read the comic yet, but an island seems pretty poor of a refuge, unless it was completely surrounded by inaccessible cliffs. zombies don't drown.

[Killer Angel]

However, this falls into my earlier point: Where are they going to go? The airports will almost certainly be closed, and if things are really that bad, the roads might be cordoned off as well.

This can be done, but the success depends on how many "infection points" you have to contain, and on the various places it happens.
As already pointed out, some nations can have the military structure to do such a thing with a good degree of efficiency, but many countries don't.
And even with a good organization, there are some areas with no real perimeter to contain. In Europe, you can find major cities, nominally separated by 200 miles, but effectively connected by a tight ramification of relatively small urban centers. Even in USA, you can have BIG cities (L.A.), which aren't so easy to deal with.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem is, how to you enforce that blockade? You can shut down airports easily enough: just don't allow planes to take off (although you'll still have the odd private jet wanting to make a dash for it).

However, what do you do with roads and off road escapes? Do you think National Guards would be willing to shoot on fleeing civilians? How many military personnel would you need to contain millions of panicking people trying to leave the city?

Also, consider the fact that the zombie outbreak might not even originate in a developed nation. What if it started in India, or Mexico? By the time the world is even aware of what's happening, there could be millions or tens of millions of zombies pouring over the borders!



haven't read the comic yet, but an island seems pretty poor of a refuge, unless it was completely surrounded by inaccessible cliffs. zombies don't drown.

The zombies don't know about the island and they don't randomly walk into water. Still an occasional zombie makes it to the island but they have a very detailed system of defense.

I maintain that unless the initial whatever creates thousands of zombies or hits nearly every city on Earth there won't be a problem. Even if some people escape and zombify in a different city the local enforcement will be informed of how to deal with them.

A third world country might be problem, it depends on which country got hit. They have fewer big cities though so less concentrated zombie chow. Plus the conditions are less hospitable so the zombies would decay even faster.

[bladesyz]

A third world country might be problem, it depends on which country got hit. They have fewer big cities though so less concentrated zombie chow. Plus the conditions are less hospitable so the zombies would decay even faster.

You might want to check up on your population facts...

[Forum Explorer]

You might want to check up on your population facts...

Well give me a specific country first. A zombie invasion of India would be horrifying. One of North Korea would be a 10 second distraction. Europe would be intresting but I think it would be easily handled. Same with Canada. If it hit a country like Madagascar your safe because its an island.

[bladesyz]

Well give me a specific country first. A zombie invasion of India would be horrifying. One of North Korea would be a 10 second distraction. Europe would be intresting but I think it would be easily handled. Same with Canada. If it hit a country like Madagascar your safe because its an island.

I'm simply saying that 3rd world nations have bigger population centers than developed nations.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm simply saying that 3rd world nations have bigger population centers than developed nations.

Really? :smallconfused: Where would I check that anyways?

[Mikeavelli]

Really? :smallconfused: Where would I check that anyways?

The CIA world factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/)

It’s not specifically correct to say that ALL third-world countries have larger population centers, but China and India specifically have multiple cities that make New York City look like small a country town.


Madagascar

*PANDEMIC RAGE!*

[Forum Explorer]

The CIA world factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/)

It’s not specifically correct to say that ALL third-world countries have larger population centers, but China and India specifically have multiple cities that make New York City look like small a country town.


Well its true that they have much bigger cities. But they also have a smaller percentage of people in the cities. (For example looking at the CIA world Factbook it said that Canada had an 80% urbanization rate and India had around a 20% urbanization rate)

So while it would be more devestating its only because they have huge populations to begin with which may also help if they can get organized.

[bladesyz]

Well its true that they have much bigger cities. But they also have a smaller percentage of people in the cities. (For example looking at the CIA world Factbook it said that Canada had an 80% urbanization rate and India had around a 20% urbanization rate)

So while it would be more devestating its only because they have huge populations to begin with which may also help if they can get organized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population

Back to the topic of military vs zombies, the fact that zombies can only be destroyed by brain damage, and that they do not suffer from injuries that would incapacitate living humans, I would say most of the conventional military tactics would be worthless against them:

1- Soldiers are trained to aim at the center of mass, not at heads. Headshots are extremely difficult and time-consuming. Even squads of trained marksman cannot stop a horde of hundreds of thousands of zombies.

2- Airstrikes, artilleries, and other explosive ordnances can cause only limited damage to a zombie horde since they can only destroy zombies from a direct brain hit. Simliarly, machine guns will be largely ineffective as it simply pokes holes through zombies.

3- Zombies are utterly fearless. In any war since the dawn of time, the true objective of a battle is never to kill all your enemies, it is to pound and punish your enemies until they are routed and their spirits broken. That is why you look at most battles in history and compare casualty rates with the numbers deployed, the casualties are only a percentage of the army size, and KIA numbers are even lower. As zombies cannot be killed except via headshot, and they cannot be routed, ever, their danger as a horde is a lot greater than their lack of speed, weapons, and intelligence would imply.

[warty goblin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population

Back to the topic of military vs zombies, the fact that zombies can only be destroyed by brain damage, and that they do not suffer from injuries that would incapacitate living humans, I would say most of the conventional military tactics would be worthless against them:

Unless zombies don't need muscles to move their limbs, they'll still be plenty incapacitated.


1- Soldiers are trained to aim at the center of mass, not at heads. Headshots are extremely difficult and time-consuming. Even squads of trained marksman cannot stop a horde of hundreds of thousands of zombies.
Even if you suppose zombies don't need any of their internal organs, there's still a lot of important nerves and muscles running through the chest. Getting shot repeatedly there is going to mess the zombies up significantly.

And it's not like hitting a slow moving target in the head is that difficult at all but extreme ranges. It takes a little longer yes, but we're not talking hours, and until the zombies are right up in your grill they pose exactly zero threat. Once they start to get close, it's time to turn around and run the other direction for a bit, then turn around and shoot them some more.



2- Airstrikes, artilleries, and other explosive ordnances can cause only limited damage to a zombie horde since they can only destroy zombies from a direct brain hit. Simliarly, machine guns will be largely ineffective as it simply pokes holes through zombies.
Artillery and airstrikes still shatter bones, rip off muscles and blow entire limbs away. A zombie that's cut in half is a very slow, very easy to shoot zombie.

As for machine guns, they are at their lowest power about the same as an assault rifle. By the time you hit medium or heavy machine guns, even body and limb shots are going to be wrecking serious havoc on a zombie's ability to move.

Once the horde has been reduced to nearly immobile wrecks, send in a bunch of guys wearing chainmail pants and armed with shotguns to blow their heads off and finish the job.


3- Zombies are utterly fearless. In any war since the dawn of time, the true objective of a battle is never to kill all your enemies, it is to pound and punish your enemies until they are routed and their spirits broken. That is why you look at most battles in history and compare casualty rates with the numbers deployed, the casualties are only a percentage of the army size, and KIA numbers are even lower. As zombies cannot be killed except via headshot, and they cannot be routed, ever, their danger as a horde is a lot greater than their lack of speed, weapons, and intelligence would imply.

All of which means that they are very, very easy to manipulate into designed killzones. Worst that can happen is that they get close enough to render one position non-viable, in which case it's back to the humvees and time to move on to the next line of defense while the close air support and artillery blow them apart a bit more.

[chiasaur11]

Yeah, even in WWZ, once the military was on its game again it was a massacre. Just clean up crews slaughtering zombies.

If anyone had bothered to actually deal with the issue (like the real world would), well, we'd lose an entertaining little novel.

[bladesyz]

Unless zombies don't need muscles to move their limbs, they'll still be plenty incapacitated.

Even if you suppose zombies don't need any of their internal organs, there's still a lot of important nerves and muscles running through the chest. Getting shot repeatedly there is going to mess the zombies up significantly.


Almost all undead zombies depicted in movies can continue to function even decomposed and dried up, so I don't think some nerve and muscle damage is going to bother them.



And it's not like hitting a slow moving target in the head is that difficult at all but extreme ranges. It takes a little longer yes, but we're not talking hours, and until the zombies are right up in your grill they pose exactly zero threat. Once they start to get close, it's time to turn around and run the other direction for a bit, then turn around and shoot them some more.

How far can the average soldier make reliable head shots? 100m? 200m?

How fast can that average soldier aim at a head and shoot? Once every 2 or 3 seconds? What would his accuracy be? 50%? 80%? That's an average of 2.5 to 6 seconds per zombie. How long does it take zombies to cross those 100-200m? How many soldiers all shooting at the same time are needed to stop MILLIONS of zombies (the population of a large city)?

And what about ammo? How much ammo does a soldier carry? 2 or 3 clips? That's only 90 rounds for an assault rifle. How much ammo would be needed to stop a horde of several million zombies?

Just for reference, a single .556 NATO round weighs 4g. A million rounds would weigh 4 tons. How many millions of rounds are needed to clear out a single large population center?

[Earl William]

How many millions of rounds are needed to clear out a single large population center?

If it's fully infected? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weaponsOne.

[Innis Cabal]

Almost all undead zombies depicted in movies can continue to function even decomposed and dried up, so I don't think some nerve and muscle damage is going to bother them.



How far can the average soldier make reliable head shots? 100m? 200m?

How fast can that average soldier aim at a head and shoot? Once every 2 or 3 seconds? What would his accuracy be? 50%? 80%? That's an average of 2.5 to 6 seconds per zombie. How long does it take zombies to cross those 100-200m? How many soldiers all shooting at the same time are needed to stop MILLIONS of zombies (the population of a large city)?

And what about ammo? How much ammo does a soldier carry? 2 or 3 clips? That's only 90 rounds for an assault rifle. How much ammo would be needed to stop a horde of several million zombies?

Just for reference, a single .556 NATO round weighs 4g. A million rounds would weigh 4 tons. How many millions of rounds are needed to clear out a single large population center?

Your arguments don't take anything but what you want into account. Saying "The movies depict" isn't really that substantial of a base to argue from. If somehow real world Zombies came about, you have to work in the confines of the real world. Not "Night of the Living Limburger Terror". A shot to the spinal cord aka "Chest area several times" will cause the zombie to be a non-issue even if we ignore the fact that just about any real threat of a zombie will be removed by other logical and normal world events.

Meat does not do well when it is heated up or frozen solid. Zombies in the desert or sub-arid regions or in the colder climates (this being winter and a heck of one if you live in the States) would be a non-issue. We'd be taking them out like we mow the grass. Lets also take into consideration that zombies are not intelligent most times. City streets make perfect herding pens to blast zombie hordes away. If you are out in the country side good luck ever even seeing a zombie. Between natural landscapes and crazy hill folk with guns, the zombie horde anywhere outside a city center will be about as useful as an infant with the cure for cancer but no ability to tell anyone.

But lets go with what you suggest and talk about magical zombies that defy even more laws of the universe .You ignore a great deal of things when you just argue a single solider. How about helicopters? Planes? ATV's? Tanks? Why are you arguing from a single human soldier perspective?

[bladesyz]

If it's fully infected? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weaponsOne.

That would be a horrible idea. Congratulations, you may have killed a few tens of thousands of zombies, maybe even hundreds of thousands, but you have also create an vast area that is lethal to humans but perfectly safe to zombies. That's not even mentioning the nuclear fallout and radioactive clouds.

[bladesyz]

Your arguments don't take anything but what you want into account. Saying "The movies depict" isn't really that substantial of a base to argue from. If somehow real world Zombies came about, you have to work in the confines of the real world. Not "Night of the Living Limburger Terror". A shot to the spinal cord aka "Chest area several times" will cause the zombie to be a non-issue even if we ignore the fact that just about any real threat of a zombie will be removed by other logical and normal world events.

Meat does not do well when it is heated up or frozen solid. Zombies in the desert or sub-arid regions or in the colder climates (this being winter and a heck of one if you live in the States) would be a non-issue. We'd be taking them out like we mow the grass. Lets also take into consideration that zombies are not intelligent most times. City streets make perfect herding pens to blast zombie hordes away. If you are out in the country side good luck ever even seeing a zombie. Between natural landscapes and crazy hill folk with guns, the zombie horde anywhere outside a city center will be about as useful as an infant with the cure for cancer but no ability to tell anyone.


If I had to work strictly in the confines of the real world, I wouldn't be talking about zombies in the first place! Pray tell, if movie depictions aren't a legitimate source to draw zombie characteristics from, then what is?

If you want to talk about infected humans, or normal corpses that just happen to be capable of mobility, that's fine. I'm interested in Undead Zombies as depicted in most of the zombie lore. I have even outlined their characteristics in a post above.





But lets go with what you suggest and talk about magical zombies that defy even more laws of the universe .You ignore a great deal of things when you just argue a single solider. How about helicopters? Planes? ATV's? Tanks? Why are you arguing from a single human soldier perspective?

Read my post regarding the ineffectiveness of explosives and machine guns against zombie hordes.

[TheEmerged]

How far can the average soldier make reliable head shots? 100m? 200m?

How fast can that average soldier aim at a head and shoot? Once every 2 or 3 seconds? What would his accuracy be? 50%? 80%? That's an average of 2.5 to 6 seconds per zombie. How long does it take zombies to cross those 100-200m? How many soldiers all shooting at the same time are needed to stop MILLIONS of zombies (the population of a large city)?

You're presuming the need to aim. Ever hear the joke about the fact that you need to worry less about the bullet with your name on it than the 10,000 marked Occupant? Yeah, something like that. Modern gatlins can do something like 7200 rounds a minute.


But lets go with what you suggest and talk about magical zombies that defy even more laws of the universe .You ignore a great deal of things when you just argue a single solider. How about helicopters? Planes? ATV's? Tanks? Why are you arguing from a single human soldier perspective?

I'll take this even further. Why are you restricting one side to reality and letting the other have magic? You're creating an apples & billy goat argument. If zombies are allowed to violate the laws of nature, then there are probably other ways to violate it the military would immediately start looking for. "Okay, old legends say salt can defeat some kinds of zombies. Airman! Start loading street salt into C-130's!"

[Mikeavelli]

Read my post regarding the ineffectiveness of explosives and machine guns against zombie hordes.

The chief disadvantage of high caliber machine guns is not firepower or the inability to destroy the body, it is the fact that they are hard to move, and the enemy must be moving very slowly, unaware, or led into its field of fire in order for the gun to be fully effective.

These are not relevant disadvantages when you are dealing with zombies.

[Innis Cabal]

If I had to work strictly in the confines of the real world, I wouldn't be talking about zombies in the first place! Pray tell, if movie depictions aren't a legitimate source to draw zombie characteristics from, then what is?

If you want to talk about infected humans, or normal corpses that just happen to be capable of mobility, that's fine. I'm interested in Undead Zombies as depicted in most of the zombie lore. I have even outlined their characteristics in a post above.


Read my post regarding the ineffectiveness of explosives and machine guns against zombie hordes.

You have to work in the confines of what ever discussion your going into. You are saying that zombies come into the world. Ever heard of internal consistence? Physics doesn't stop simply because you want to argue from two different planes.

As for your "Points" I didn't bother refuting them because they do it all on their own since it's clear you are arguing purely from a movie base where explosions don't do terrible horrible things to bodies.

[Coidzor]

Almost all undead zombies depicted in movies can continue to function even decomposed and dried up, so I don't think some nerve and muscle damage is going to bother them.

There's a cracked article explaining why this argument doesn't really hold water with real world physics. And if the zombies can be destroyed by destroying the brain with a gun, then they're not eternal and will fall apart on their own eventually without needing the assistance of lead.

...And if they can't, well, then dismembering them becomes the only way to deal with them.

And if that doesn't work because they start to reform because of whatever magic is making them into meat puppets, well, then one just has to prevent the bits from getting back together.

Or use fire.


How fast can that average soldier aim at a head and shoot? Once every 2 or 3 seconds? What would his accuracy be? 50%? 80%? That's an average of 2.5 to 6 seconds per zombie. How long does it take zombies to cross those 100-200m? How many soldiers all shooting at the same time are needed to stop MILLIONS of zombies (the population of a large city)?

Well, there's a number of problems here. 1. Unless they're trapped there's the ability to fall back. Or back up a bit. 2. You're not going to get the entire population of a large city zombified all at once and in the same place. Especially not early on enough that the military is at the state where they feel they have to press the engagement. If they're just retaking a city or clearing one out, then they can use hit and run tactics when such concerns as ammunition become a factor.

3. As has been said, heavy weapons + force multipliers are not usefless by any stretch of the imagination. Rendering the horde unable to stand and then crushing them all with a steamroller or tank is as much of a win as headshotting the lot of them. Or blockading them into various sections and setting fire to them.

[warty goblin]

Almost all undead zombies depicted in movies can continue to function even decomposed and dried up, so I don't think some nerve and muscle damage is going to bother them.

So what? Almost every zombie videogame I've played lets the player get repeatedly hit by everything up to and including chainsaws and be OK, that doesn't make it a reasonable or interesting assumption.


How far can the average soldier make reliable head shots? 100m? 200m?
Depends on the light, optics, weapon, wind, elevation, firing position and quite a lot else. 100 meters is probably pretty reasonable though.


How fast can that average soldier aim at a head and shoot? Once every 2 or 3 seconds? What would his accuracy be? 50%? 80%? That's an average of 2.5 to 6 seconds per zombie. How long does it take zombies to cross those 100-200m? How many soldiers all shooting at the same time are needed to stop MILLIONS of zombies (the population of a large city)?
For something only slightly more challenging to hit than a paper cutout, 2 or 3 seconds is drastically long. I can reliably hit targets about that size taking that long to aim over open sights. For somebody with actual firearms training, and likely optics to boot, I'd bet much less time.

Also averages are numbers, not intervals.

And what about ammo? How much ammo does a soldier carry? 2 or 3 clips? That's only 90 rounds for an assault rifle. How much ammo would be needed to stop a horde of several million zombies?
It's more like 10 magazines actually, and commonly a belt for the fireteam's SAW. For zombie killing detail this could easily be increased though, since there's quite a lot of heavy equipment that wouldn't be necessary. Rifle plates for body armor would be useless, zombies aren't going to chew through the kevlar, entrenching equipment becomes somewhat dubious since you don't need foxholes to fight something that doesn't shoot back, and there's probably some other stuff that isn't required. For a role this specialized you'd probably be looking at 15 mags at least.

And a million zombies in one place isn't an exercise for small arms, it's time for 2000lbs bombs, 120mm artillery bombardment and other forms of high explosive or incendiary death.


Just for reference, a single .556 NATO round weighs 4g. A million rounds would weigh 4 tons. How many millions of rounds are needed to clear out a single large population center?
A few million, so what? It's not like moving a few dozen tons of materiel is particularly challenging for an army.

[Killer Angel]

And it's not like hitting a slow moving target in the head is that difficult at all but extreme ranges.

Unless, of course, zombies / infected, didn't run.
Which is not so unusual in many media (Resident evil, Dawn of the dead remake / 28 days later)

[bladesyz]

You have to work in the confines of what ever discussion your going into. You are saying that zombies come into the world. Ever heard of internal consistence? Physics doesn't stop simply because you want to argue from two different planes.

As for your "Points" I didn't bother refuting them because they do it all on their own since it's clear you are arguing purely from a movie base where explosions don't do terrible horrible things to bodies.

I don't get it. What's so difficult about a thought exercise that pits the modern military against undead zombies as depicted in popular media? Do you feel that the modern military doesn't have a chance unless the zombies were subject to normal cadaver physics? I have posted the zombie characteristics above, so it's not like this is a moving goal.

It doesn't matter that zombies defy what we know about biology (they don't defy anything about physics, btw), and they could be supernatural in origin for all I care. This isn't about the military researching a cure or secret weapon against zombies. This is about the military applying current hardware against a vastly alien foe.

Finally, yes, explosions do terrible things to bodies, but the effect depends on proximity to the center of detonation. A bomb might shred a dozen zombies near the center, but zombies a bit farther out might only lose limbs, and zombies even farther out might only be knocked down by the explosive force.

[Sipex]

Here, let's pull a scenario using the zombies proposed since there's still quite a bit of animosity around it.

Let's say a city with a population of approximately 1 million is largely infected (ie: New York is a good example but let's not make assumptions about geography). Since we're talking about undead zombies ala the OP's original point it's only been 3 days. Enough for the military to moblise what they have available in the area (which someone will have to provide numbers for what the military can easily apply to a crisis like this on such short notice, I'm not a military guy).

Due to the size and stature of the city, Nukes are out of the question and bombing the city isn't an option yet (as this is the military's first attempt to tackle the problem they'd like to do this without destroying a large, keystone city if at all possible).

I don't know if it's absolutely necessary to classify what the military knows just yet.

[TheArsenal]

In honesty It Depends on the Zombie.
The only Zombie that would realistically work is Rabies.....And have we all been infected yet? No? Then I doubt that a real zombie would either.

[Innis Cabal]

Here, let's pull a scenario using the zombies proposed since there's still quite a bit of animosity around it.

Let's say a city with a population of approximately 1 million is largely infected (ie: New York is a good example but let's not make assumptions about geography). Since we're talking about undead zombies ala the OP's original point it's only been 3 days. Enough for the military to moblise what they have available in the area (which someone will have to provide numbers for what the military can easily apply to a crisis like this on such short notice, I'm not a military guy).

Due to the size and stature of the city, Nukes are out of the question and bombing the city isn't an option yet (as this is the military's first attempt to tackle the problem they'd like to do this without destroying a large, keystone city if at all possible).

I don't know if it's absolutely necessary to classify what the military knows just yet.

You get a few black hawk helicopters and play shoot em up all the while "Born to be Wild" blares over your loud speakers just to let the civilian population know that yes, yes you are that bad ass.

[warty goblin]

You get a few black hawk helicopters and play shoot em up all the while "Born to be Wild" blares over your loud speakers just to let the civilian population know that yes, yes you are that bad ass.

Apaches would probably be a better choice, being a dedicated helicopter gunship.

[Innis Cabal]

The point is made regardless.

[bladesyz]

You get a few black hawk helicopters and play shoot em up all the while "Born to be Wild" blares over your loud speakers just to let the civilian population know that yes, yes you are that bad ass.

Way to go, you're shooting up streets full of panicking civilians. Good job.

[warty goblin]

The point is made regardless.

Indeed, the more zombies you have in one spot, the more firepower can be brought to bear.

[Sipex]

I think with the setting a proposed zombie type the helicopters would proove less useful than expected. Your zombie targets are limited to those outside (while you weave between buildings most likely) and your ability to kill them rests on the chance of a headshot within a spray of bullets or dismembering the body so much it's entirely useless. Both which are plausible but highly resource intensive, especially for a city that size.

[warty goblin]

I think with the setting a proposed zombie type the helicopters would proove less useful than expected. Your zombie targets are limited to those outside (while you weave between buildings most likely) and your ability to kill them rests on the chance of a headshot within a spray of bullets or dismembering the body so much it's entirely useless. Both which are plausible but highly resource intensive, especially for a city that size.

Auto-hover, guncam aiming, 30mm cannon firing high explosive impact fused rounds. No weaving required, the noise likely attracts zombies, and thanks to the massive bullets a hit in the general vicinity of the head should prove sufficient.

And if you get a lot of zombies in one place? Time for the rockets.

[Frozen_Predator]

alright to adress a few points:

-Soldiers are trained to hit the body mass/headshots are hard: true, but for urban enviroments modern soldiers are trained to shoot 2 rounds in the chest and one in the head, they would quickly realise the uselessness off the chest shots and go solely for headshots. so how hard is a headshot, true it depends on a load of factors but many western countries are switching from metal sights or scopes to Aim-points or Eotecs. these little devices can give even a crappy rifleman a 50% headshot rate at 300 meters.

-machineguns are too inaccurate: Bull****, being trainedas a machinegunner myself i know how lethally accurate a medium machinegun can be, by just shortening my bursts to 3 round bursts I managed to score a 100% headshot rate at 400 meters. a light machine gun is even accurate when fired on the move.

-Artillery and Airstrikes are useless: this requires a little history lesson, before WW1 soldiers wore a cap or at best (German army) a leather helmet. There is a reason why they switched to metal helmets during WW1. modern artillery usually explodes above ground and the shrapnell thus mainly injures the head. Body armour that is being issued nowadays is due to the IED threat which explode at ground level.

-Tanks only fire anti-tank rounds: when intelligence indicates an enemy with tanks then tanks are loaded 2 AT rounds for every shrapnell round. When the risk of tanks is minimal Tanks are loaded with 2 Shrapnell rounds for every AT round. then add to the fact that modern AT rounds would propably keep going after hitting the first Zombie in the head. It doesn't explode its a giant Tungsten or Depleted Uranium dart. in fact just firing one at a Zombie horde would take out dozens of Z's all at once, since removing the torso propably would have the same effect as a headshot.

and for the guy who asked about how much ammo a modern soldier carries: ten magazines is indeed close to accurate, here's what I had in my Chest Rig in Afghanistan: 10 magazines of 30 5.56 rounds, 2 magazines of 17 9 mm rounds, a combat knife, 2 hand grenades, 2 flash bangs, 1 incendiary grenade and 2 smoke grenades (if i remember correctly green and grey smoke). I was also able to change my ammo carried in the event i would remove my MG from the vehicle, in this case i would replace the 10 magazines with about 2 230 round 7.62 belts giving me 460 rounds. My buddy would in that case take a small backpack and put another 2 230 round belts in it. and we were not a dedicated infantry squad, a dedicated infantry squad would carry around 14 magazines per person maybe even more.

[Killer Angel]

You get a few black hawk helicopters and play shoot em up all the while "Born to be Wild" blares over your loud speakers just to let the civilian population know that yes, yes you are that bad ass.

Believing that helicopters in a hurban area as NY, can resolve the problem, is a little optimistic.
If the scenario, involves only one city, for the army there will be no problem, but you must send troops by feet.


-Tanks only fire anti-tank rounds: when intelligence indicates an enemy with tanks then tanks are loaded 2 AT rounds for every shrapnell round. When the risk of tanks is minimal Tanks are loaded with 2 Shrapnell rounds for every AT round.

this kind of reasoning (tanks, 'copters and best suited types of ammo) works, again, with limitated points of "infection".
If the thing is on a worldwide scale, soon you'll suffer logistic problem to fuel vehicles, and so on.

[Innis Cabal]

Way to go, you're shooting up streets full of panicking civilians. Good job.

Wait what? If there are literally millions of zombies on the streets then the liklihood of there being anything alive down in the streets are slim to none. Beside that quite frankly...acceptable losses. That's what they've become. You're just making stuff up now so your argument remains valid. It's getting more then overbearing and annoying.

And before you frankly go out on the moral outcry of the acceptable losses. I myself would willingly blow myself up with what ever I could over being eaten alive. The fact that human life is being slaughtered to save human life is justifiable in all extents and purposes here.


Auto-hover, guncam aiming, 30mm cannon firing high explosive impact fused rounds. No weaving required, the noise likely attracts zombies, and thanks to the massive bullets a hit in the general vicinity of the head should prove sufficient.

And if you get a lot of zombies in one place? Time for the rockets.

And quite frankly this. When all you have are zombies in an area, the time to screw around with things like "civilian casualties" goes down inversely by the likelihood of a mass outbreak because you failed to mop the vector off the map. Would you rather be the guy that killed 20 people to save the world or the jerk that let his compassion doom the entire human species.

[Worira]

OK, so military hardware is still getting underestimated up in here. Here's a picture of a .50 caliber round, with some others for comparison.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Rifle_cartridge_comparison_w_scale.png
And here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSGuiko6Gg)'s a video of it striking a block of ballistics gel. I don't care where that hits a zombie, they aren't going to be doing a whole lot of menacing after being hit with that. Nor are the next few zombies behind him.

Now, here's a picture of a 20mm round, which are what are fired from the M61 Vulcan. Pictured for comparison are a golf ball, a stick of RAM, and several .50 caliber rounds.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/50BMG_size_comparison.JPG/477px-50BMG_size_comparison.JPG

The Vulcan fires about 100 of those per second.

TL;DR: Guns shoot bullets good.

[warty goblin]

Believing that helicopters in a hurban area as NY, can resolve the problem, is a little optimistic.
If the scenario, involves only one city, for the army there will be no problem, but you must send troops by feet.

Eventually yes, you're gonna need guys on the ground. There's plenty of opportunity to rain hell from the sky first though.




this kind of reasoning (tanks, 'copters and best suited types of ammo) works, again, with limitated points of "infection".
If the thing is on a worldwide scale, soon you'll suffer logistic problem to fuel vehicles, and so on.
If it's worldwide and infecting enough of the population to hinder logistics enough to disable the world's militaries, everybody is screwed anyway. The army guys sitting the bases with the fuel and ammo reserves are just less so.

The real point of this is that it would require human incompetence for the zombie apocalypse to get, well apocalyptic. Given the species' track record, that's not necessarily a terrible assumption, but the undead based end of the world has more to do with people, less with the potency of zombies.

[bladesyz]

Wait what? If there are literally millions of zombies on the streets then the liklihood of there being anything alive down in the streets are slim to none. Beside that quite frankly...acceptable losses. That's what they've become. You're just making stuff up now so your argument remains valid. It's getting more then overbearing and annoying.

And before you frankly go out on the moral outcry of the acceptable losses. I myself would willingly blow myself up with what ever I could over being eaten alive. The fact that human life is being slaughtered to save human life is justifiable in all extents and purposes here.


What are you talking about? The scenario calls for 1 million zombies in a large city. That's only 1 in every 3 people, or 1 in every 20 if it's New York.

What's more, those 1 million zombies, which is the early stage of the outbreak, won't be parading on the streets waiting for you to shoot them. They'll be inside apartments, malls, offices trying to get at terrified refugees huddled behind locked doors.

As for the streets? They're not going to be lined up with zombies either. They'll be packed bumper to bumper with cars, desperate drivers trying to get out of the city, with zombies weaving between them trying to break into those cars for lunch.

Seriously, before you accuse other people of making things up, think for a second.

[Illieas]

a city is pretty small in terms of area with limited in and outs.
the best way to work it is have helicopters circle and spout a safe retrival location. which there people will be quarantined.
really then it just a matter of using bombs and machine guns. human that attempt to escape the area will be quarantined by the cdc. infection zone define an area around and media campaign to report sick people. any small infection of maybe 5 or 6 to around 20 can be taken out by a police force any thing bigger can be dealth with swat teams. it will be long process but as long as the CDC and police and military are competant. there will only be small flare up of escaped infected humans which will be rid of quickly before they reach city level disaster


a strategy is to lure out the stupid zombies to a nested fire group. if they are the shambling type you would make them crawl at worst and turn them to mist at best. if your really good wall them into a sqaure where you either burn them or bomb them or shoot them. if you can split and lure them into a trap. the threat of the zombie is that they overpower with numbers and come from all directions. the problem is that they are in a confined area and we have logistics by air and space to determine a massive grouping of zombies and have vehicles that move faster than the 2 MPH that zombie move to be able to mobolize and take them out. a city of zombie does not kill infrastructure enough. we can keep the planes and helicopters fueled and the infantry supplied.

the only way that zombies can win is massive viral infection. covering a good portion of high population centers and military centers such that they don't function properly.

[bladesyz]

the only way that zombies can win is massive viral infection. covering a good portion of high population centers and military centers such that they don't function properly.

It's true that if humanity is properly prepared and are knowledgeable about the nature of zombies, then isolated outbreaks can be quickly stamped out.

The danger is, that very first outbreak is likely to catch humanity unprepared and cause massive infection before people can organize and fight back. The danger in even one large city being widely infected is that it is virtually impossible to quarantine it properly. Once infected people get out, it's virtually impossible to track them all. Zombies don't drown, so if they get washed into the ocean, there's no telling where they will end up washed ashore.

[Coidzor]

What are you talking about? The scenario calls for 1 million zombies in a large city. That's only 1 in every 3 people, or 1 in every 20 if it's New York.


Let's say a city with a population of approximately 1 million is largely infected (ie: New York is a good example but let's not make assumptions about geography).

Less than a million zombies, but the majority of the population is dead or zombified. The city's basically dead regardless of whether the zombies are wiped out with those kinds of casualties anyway.

[BladeofOblivion]

Less than a million zombies, but the majority of the population is dead or zombified. The city's basically dead regardless of whether the zombies are wiped out with those kinds of casualties anyway.

New York City has over 8 Million Residents...

[Lord of the Helms]

New York City has over 8 Million Residents...

True, NYC isn't a good example for a 1 million people city. You could pick Manhattan Island instead, which I think has around a million and a half inhabitants, but an island would be too easy to contain. The 8 million folks in NYC should work anyway.

Now, if NYC is indeed infected to a large degree, it stands to reason that the people out in the open street are not going to be innocent uninfected, because a) they'd be ripe pickings for zombies, so anyone going out will be infected in short order unless they have formed a well-armed shooting squad that can defend itself against Zombies, in which case any helicopter gunner will recognize them, and b) even the stupidest people will be either hiding in their homes (which, especially if it's an above-ground-floor apartment with a reasonably strong door, should already be reasonably safe) or trying to get out of town by car. In which case it depends on how strong the Zombies are; Dawn of the Dead-type killing machines probably could force their way into a locked cars, while weak Night of the Living Dead-type zombies probably can't even break the windows. Even relatively "weak" car-glass is hard.

Either way, to suggest that the streets are filled with ordinary people in a zombie apocalypse and gunships can't just tear away at the zombies because of collateral damage is ridiculous. And, yes, with the kind of ordnance they carry, they don't need to aim for headshots. Their machine guns and machine cannons will outright destroy limbs and torsos en masse. Even if the head isn't hit by the sheer Dakka thrown around, an intact head isn't that great for a Zombie when the torso it should be attached to has been turned into fine paste. Needing headshots is acceptable when dealing with small arms, but weapons that can bodily tear their targets apart should do just fine for killing zombies. Which is probably why you don't see that kinda stuff in too many zombie movies, it'd make the killing too easy :smallwink:

[warty goblin]

And if civilian casualties do prove an issue, it's not like it would be hard to get the civies to identify themselves clearly. Just fly around with loudspeakers telling everybody to carry, well, anything, so long as its large and visible. Zombies really aren't known for either tool use or impersonating the living. During a zombie apocalypse I'd expect most people to be hoisting some sort of weapon to defend themselves with anyway.

[Lord of the Helms]

And if civilian casualties do prove an issue, it's not like it would be hard to get the civies to identify themselves clearly. Just fly around with loudspeakers telling everybody to carry, well, anything, so long as its large and visible. Zombies really aren't known for either tool use or impersonating the living. During a zombie apocalypse I'd expect most people to be hoisting some sort of weapon to defend themselves with anyway.

Plus, those outside that aren't hoisting a weapon will likely be infected within minutes. Thus being a target, thus DAKKADAKKADAKKA.

[Coidzor]

That reminds me. How are airplanes supposed to be vectors for the disease with the sorts of transformation times generally exhibited? :smallconfused:

Zombies can't land planes, and if the passengers are compromised then the pilots are not getting out of the plane uninfected/alive if they land without countermeasures from the people on the ground if the cockpit can even withstand zombies attempting to gain entry.

[Demon 997]

I think planes are only an issues if turning time is a matter of days. Or at least 6+ hours for shorter flights.

The simple fact is that unless everyone ignores the zombies for the first few months, the worlds military's will curb stomp them. Even if they did, I'd still bet on the humans. Large hordes are artilleries and heavy machine guns dreams. Modern infantry is well equipped to clear houses, so clean up wouldn't even be that bad.

[VanBuren]

Thing is, humans aren't really all that spectacular physically (OK, we have a much higher endurance than most other creatures shut up you know where I'm going) but we've risen to the top thanks to our intelligence--which lets us create and use tools to make up for our shortcomings--and our ability to work cooperatively.

Zombies do not retain this abilities for the most part. In other words, a zombie is like a human with all of the drawbacks and none of the perks (save for that endurance thing, but we have it too).

[Killer Angel]

The simple fact is that unless everyone ignores the zombies for the first few months, the worlds military's will curb stomp them. Even if they did, I'd still bet on the humans.

If you ignore them for months, it's game over...

That said, it's all a matter of propagation of the infection.
Few points, with zombies ala first Romero, only with bites? easy kill, problem solved.
Now, if the infection is air-spreaded, as a very aggressive global flu, or if it's carried by animals such birds, things will be very problematic. Even a military structure very efficient, can contain the infected zone, but cannot stop the propagation of the disease.
There is a point where things are so large that are out of hopes of control.

We are considering USA... let's image a zombie outbreak (let's say an initial flu, that strikes many places, and from then, we have zombies ala Dawn of the Dead remake: fast, but infection only by contact) in a third world country, or largely populated areas (India). What kind of chances the local have? At what point, NATO will be involved? certainly not at the beginning (no notice, or too few news), and not even in the first weeks (try send troops in South-East Asia...).
If the BIG countries move when they had to face 500 millions of zombies scattered across Asia (or Africa, or South America), you will lose half of the world (EDIT: or "only" a continent, if geography helps you, as for S. America, and if you're ready to let die ALL the residents, for fear of disease carrier)

[Forum Explorer]

If you ignore them for months, it's game over...

That said, it's all a matter of propagation of the infection.
Few points, with zombies ala first Romero, only with bites? easy kill, problem solved.
Now, if the infection is air-spreaded, as a very aggressive global flu, or if it's carried by animals such birds, things will be very problematic. Even a military structure very efficient, can contain the infected zone, but cannot stop the propagation of the disease.
There is a point where things are so large that are out of hopes of control.

We are considering USA... let's image a zombie outbreak (let's say an initial flu, that strikes many places, and from then, we have zombies ala Dawn of the Dead remake: fast, but infection only by contact) in a third world country, or largely populated areas (India). What kind of chances the local have? At what point, NATO will be involved? certainly not at the beginning (no notice, or too few news), and not even in the first weeks (try send troops in South-East Asia...).
If the BIG countries move when they had to face 500 millions of zombies scattered across Asia (or Africa, or South America), you will lose half of the world (EDIT: or "only" a continent, if geography helps you, as for S. America, and if you're ready to let die ALL the residents, for fear of disease carrier)

Still the zombies would decay and the bigger countries tend to have a large military as well. So they might get devestated but they would likely contain the problem to prevent a 500 million hoard desending on the world. Even if they don't decay normally, they don't heal so walking out of a country would leave them crippled.

If it acts like a normal disease we would be able to develop a vaccine so we would still win. Humans would always win, the variable is how much damage we will take before we win.

[warty goblin]

Still the zombies would decay and the bigger countries tend to have a large military as well. So they might get devestated but they would likely contain the problem to prevent a 500 million hoard desending on the world. Even if they don't decay normally, they don't heal so walking out of a country would leave them crippled.

[QUOTE]If it acts like a normal disease we would be able to develop a vaccine so we would still win. Humans would always win, the variable is how much damage we will take before we win.
Developing a vaccine depends very much on the disease. If it's bacterial it's probably possible, although it might be extremely difficult. Note for instance the lack of a universally effective TB vaccine.

If the disease is a virus, odds go way down for the development of a highly effective preventative medicine. Not impossible, but its looking much less good.

If it's caused by something like prions, you're simply screwed.

And humanity hasn't lost yet, that's different than being able to always win in the future.

[Forum Explorer]

Developing a vaccine depends very much on the disease. If it's bacterial it's probably possible, although it might be extremely difficult. Note for instance the lack of a universally effective TB vaccine.

If the disease is a virus, odds go way down for the development of a highly effective preventative medicine. Not impossible, but its looking much less good.

If it's caused by something like prions, you're simply screwed.

And humanity hasn't lost yet, that's different than being able to always win in the future.

Very true. Still I tend to take an optamistic view on what humanity can achive.


For the last line, I was more talking about nobody seems to be able to present a zombie scenario that makes it look like we can lose. Just the amount of damage varies.

[warty goblin]

Very true. Still I tend to take an optamistic view on what humanity can achive.


For the last line, I was more talking about nobody seems to be able to present a zombie scenario that makes it look like we can lose. Just the amount of damage varies.

Well the airborne virus that's carried by anything warmblooded, is 99% lethal, has an incubation period of several days, and minimal symptoms until a sudden craving for grey matter would actually be a pretty good bet for wiping out the species, and pretty much everything else for that matter. At that point however the zombies aren't the problem, the bit where the disease is virtually unstoppable and kills everything is.

[Mewtarthio]

Well the airborne virus that's carried by anything warmblooded, is 99% lethal, has an incubation period of several days, and minimal symptoms until a sudden craving for grey matter would actually be a pretty good bet for wiping out the species, and pretty much everything else for that matter. At that point however the zombies aren't the problem, the bit where the disease is virtually unstoppable and kills everything is.

If you want it more zombie-focused, what if we go with the "anyone who ever dies of anything gets back up" variety? That seems a bit more interesting. We've got outbreaks literally everywhere, and quarantines are significantly less effective (although anyone who gets bit is still a walking timebomb, the infection will still spread naturally on its own), but if we can successfully stem the initial panic and stay alive long enough to figure out what's going on, the human race can potentially adapt. So, it's not an automatic "Dead rise, everyone dies" scenario, but it's also not a simple "Throw down a quarantine and nuke it from orbit" scenario, either.

[BladeofOblivion]

If you want it more zombie-focused, what if we go with the "anyone who ever dies of anything gets back up" variety? That seems a bit more interesting. We've got outbreaks literally everywhere, and quarantines are significantly less effective (although anyone who gets bit is still a walking timebomb, the infection will still spread naturally on its own), but if we can successfully stem the initial panic and stay alive long enough to figure out what's going on, the human race can potentially adapt. So, it's not an automatic "Dead rise, everyone dies" scenario, but it's also not a simple "Throw down a quarantine and nuke it from orbit" scenario, either.

Have you ever seen Fido? Hilarious movie around this premise. Except long after the actual war, and we use mind control devices so we can use them as cheap labor.

[Ricky S]

@ BladeofOblivion: I hated that movie so much. It was so retarded, funny yes, but completely retarded. I also disliked the end of shaun of the dead where they use zombies as slave labour.

@ Coidzor: Actually the pilots would be fine because the doors are reinforced steel. They have made it so it is impossible to get into a cockpit because of the risk of terrorism. The pilots would be able to land the plane and then either get help from those on the ground to get out of the cockpit or they could probably break their way out. If the pilots were infected before they got on the plane then it is a different story.

@ Forum Explorer: Actually I doubt that the military would be able to contain such a large zombie outbreak. Most countries have a standing army of about 1% of the population. If you take somewhere like china that is 10 million soldiers trying to contain a billion zombies, not going to happen. Australia (where I live) only has 50 000 soldiers. 10 000 of those are on active duty the rest are reserves. They are definately not going to be able to contain 23 million zombies. Even the US with the best equiped army in the world is unlikely to be able to contain 350 million zombies. This is assuming the outbreak is the worst case scenario.

There was a game I played online which was very simple you could drop bombs by clicking. It was a top down view of a city block and there were 5000 humans inside. When the game starts four zombies appear in random places and start infecting the humans and turning them into zombies. If you killed the zombies at the start of the game you would be able to preserve the most life. However if you let them infect half of the population then trying to contain the outbreak was almost impossible. So if you left an outbreak for months there would be almost no chance of controlling the situation. You would have to abandon the country and start somewhere else.

[Caewil]

Where are the flamethrowers? Last I recall the military still had those. And napalm burns a lot hotter than a normal gasoline fire, it'd probably melt them in seconds.

EDIT: If you leave a zombie-infected country alone for months, you may as well just nuke it.

[Forum Explorer]

@ BladeofOblivion: I hated that movie so much. It was so retarded, funny yes, but completely retarded. I also disliked the end of shaun of the dead where they use zombies as slave labour.

@ Coidzor: Actually the pilots would be fine because the doors are reinforced steel. They have made it so it is impossible to get into a cockpit because of the risk of terrorism. The pilots would be able to land the plane and then either get help from those on the ground to get out of the cockpit or they could probably break their way out. If the pilots were infected before they got on the plane then it is a different story.

@ Forum Explorer: Actually I doubt that the military would be able to contain such a large zombie outbreak. Most countries have a standing army of about 1% of the population. If you take somewhere like china that is 10 million soldiers trying to contain a billion zombies, not going to happen. Australia (where I live) only has 50 000 soldiers. 10 000 of those are on active duty the rest are reserves. They are definately not going to be able to contain 23 million zombies. Even the US with the best equiped army in the world is unlikely to be able to contain 350 million zombies. This is assuming the outbreak is the worst case scenario.

There was a game I played online which was very simple you could drop bombs by clicking. It was a top down view of a city block and there were 5000 humans inside. When the game starts four zombies appear in random places and start infecting the humans and turning them into zombies. If you killed the zombies at the start of the game you would be able to preserve the most life. However if you let them infect half of the population then trying to contain the outbreak was almost impossible. So if you left an outbreak for months there would be almost no chance of controlling the situation. You would have to abandon the country and start somewhere else.

Well yeah close to a billion zombies would be hard to stop. Still explosives and flight would go a long way to thinning their numbers. But getting that many zombies would be a hard secario to accept if the disease is only spread via biteing. Even than though natrual barriers like mountains would prevent it from being a total extinction event.

Also which game are you refering to?

[Ricky S]

Well yeah close to a billion zombies would be hard to stop. Still explosives and flight would go a long way to thinning their numbers. But getting that many zombies would be a hard secario to accept if the disease is only spread via biteing. Even than though natrual barriers like mountains would prevent it from being a total extinction event.

Also which game are you refering to?

Definately modern technology would go a long way. I was just highlighting how impossible that would be to contain if the zombies were given months to spread.

It was just a flash game I found one night while searching for zombie related stuff. I have looked for it today but I cant remember its name nor the site I got it from. It was just a zombie outbreak simulation where you could intervene.

[Frozen_Predator]

Where are the flamethrowers? Last I recall the military still had those. And napalm burns a lot hotter than a normal gasoline fire, it'd probably melt them in seconds.


Flamethrowers are actually forbidden by international law, most western Nations no longer use them. China however still uses them extensively and in fact updated their flamethrower arsenal a couple of years ago

[TheArsenal]

A Zombie invasion (Dead rising) Could not happen. Its impossible to raise the dead. The closest thing would be altering the mind, but thats all preventable. Think about our media. Zombies are so known that I breath in 7 zombie books with every breath. If we had a newer version of rabies: In-chanced resistance to blows, and lots of agression. We would avoid them like the plague, and would RESTRAIN each infected one. If you saw a running drooling angry person running towards you, you WILL think its infectious. Then lets say its your dad. You bring dad to the hospital, where he is restrained. They study him, find cure, or kill him. Boom infection over. If YOU where bitten, they ask: "Where you bitten" you say "Yes". End of infection. If lets say a whole CITY is infected, that means there will be lots of contacts to the military and HUNDREDS of clues that will tell something is wrong. Military brings tanks. Runs over the rage zombies. End of story.

[Worira]

I actually know the game you're referring to, Ricky S, although I feel it bears mentioning that the odds, even if you do nothing, are actually stacked in the humans' favour, because there's a 50% chance that the first time a zombie meets a human, the human will just punch it right in the face, ending the game in seconds.

Also, I'm pretty sure most militaries could, in fact, kill 100 times their number in unarmed, mindless zombies.

[Killer Angel]

Still the zombies would decay and the bigger countries tend to have a large military as well. So they might get devestated but they would likely contain the problem to prevent a 500 million hoard desending on the world. Even if they don't decay normally, they don't heal so walking out of a country would leave them crippled.

If it acts like a normal disease we would be able to develop a vaccine so we would still win. Humans would always win, the variable is how much damage we will take before we win.


Well, I think we can all agree that, if the infection spreads as a flu and with many simultaneous points of propagation, a single nation can be overrided... and a zombie apocalypse can be at a smaller scale than global.
In 28 days later, it was limited to GB: the whole humanity wasn't doomed, but in GB, it was effectively a Z.A.... only, the living, instead of searching shelter from the world, in an island, had to escape from the island, into the sane world.

[Forum Explorer]

I actually know the game you're referring to, Ricky S, although I feel it bears mentioning that the odds, even if you do nothing, are actually stacked in the humans' favour, because there's a 50% chance that the first time a zombie meets a human, the human will just punch it right in the face, ending the game in seconds.

Also, I'm pretty sure most militaries could, in fact, kill 100 times their number in unarmed, mindless zombies.

What's its name? I kinda want to give it a try.

[Anteros]

I think anyone who is arguing that headshots would be necessary has absolutely no idea what a high caliber bullet will actually do to a human body.

[BladeofOblivion]

I think anyone who is arguing that headshots would be necessary has absolutely no idea what a high caliber bullet will actually do to a human body.

For those that do not know, the proper descriptive word is not "Perforated," "Swiss Cheese'd," "Penetrated," or "Dead."

The best description, in one word, is "Shattered."

[Ricky S]

I actually know the game you're referring to, Ricky S, although I feel it bears mentioning that the odds, even if you do nothing, are actually stacked in the humans' favour, because there's a 50% chance that the first time a zombie meets a human, the human will just punch it right in the face, ending the game in seconds.

Also, I'm pretty sure most militaries could, in fact, kill 100 times their number in unarmed, mindless zombies.

Lol even then it just takes one to get infected...

I dont know though. If it reaches a certain point where all the infrastructure has collapsed then they will get to a point where they cannot feasibly stop the infection or kill every zombie. Also the military at war needs a lot of people not on the frontline even if they are only fighting zombies. They have to co-ordinate attacks, keep communications open, keep supply lines going, etc.

Calibre: The bigger the bullet the less you have to rely on shot placement and the more you can just hit the centre of mass. Has anyone seen the video of that terrrorist being shot by an M82? If not let me give you the gist of it. He was ripped apart. The round hit him in the shoulder just above the heart. His arm was missing and there was massive gaping hole where his shoulder was supposed to be. Even a zombie wouldn't be able to get up from that. Of course it is more effective if it hits bone but even without that it is still fatal.

With 7.62mm rounds and less it would be advisable to aim for the head unless they are infected and not zombies (Ie 28 days later as opposed to Dawn of the Dead). The round will need to penetrate the brain as they are not powerful enough to damage a zombie enough to kill it. Unless you put about 200 rounds into one, but that is just a waste of ammunition.

With the majority of weapons being used by the military being small arms, shot placement will still be essential to killing zombies.

[lord_khaine]

Returning to the scenario of 1 million zombies in new York, i doubt the help of the military would even be needet, considering how many weapons there are in that city, then i do suspect the citizens could handle the situation on their own.


With 7.62mm rounds and less it would be advisable to aim for the head unless they are infected and not zombies (Ie 28 days later as opposed to Dawn of the Dead). The round will need to penetrate the brain as they are not powerful enough to damage a zombie enough to kill it. Unless you put about 200 rounds into one, but that is just a waste of ammunition.


You are underestimating how much power there is behind a 7.62 round, a hit in the leg would be more than enough to shatter bone, crippling the zombie to such a degree that its harmless.

[Ricky S]

You are underestimating how much power there is behind a 7.62 round, a hit in the leg would be more than enough to shatter bone, crippling the zombie to such a degree that its harmless.

No I am really not. I have seen the first hand effect of what a 7.62mm round will do (my friend hunts wild pigs up north). But even with that against a zombie you will want a headshot because you want to kill the zombie as opposed to just disabling it. Thats assuming the round disables it at all. Despite being able to shatter bones it might just deflect off it or it might not hit bone at all. Now you have to fire another round and waste it trying to disable it again. It would be far easier to aim for the head.

Even if you disable it and you are not close to it you have just created another hazard. Now you have to go and kill the zombie at close range exposing yourself to more hazards. For example what if you are in a dense forest? Jungle? Corn field? An immobile zombie is still a threat. If I am shooting it I will be sure to aim for the head. Even if it isnt a threat to you anymore what about other survivors? You have just created a possibly lethal scenario for them.

[Craftworld]

I think anyone who is arguing that headshots would be necessary has absolutely no idea what a high caliber bullet will actually do to a human body.

It doesn't even necessarilly need to be high calibre. A .204 which is smaller than a .22 will punch a .308 sized hole in 1/2 inch steel plating. Now last I checked, zombies aren't steel so yeah. .204s are also comercially availible so civilians could purchase them.

[Killer Angel]

I think anyone who is arguing that headshots would be necessary has absolutely no idea what a high caliber bullet will actually do to a human body.

I could agree on the high caliber, but sadly, not all the weapons fit this description.
I'm not an expert, so feel free to correct me, but, actually, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO) is the standard projectile for NATO forces.
And it has lot of problems Vs the living (see "criticism").


It doesn't even necessarilly need to be high calibre. A .204 which is smaller than a .22 will punch a .308 sized hole in 1/2 inch steel plating. Now last I checked, zombies aren't steel so yeah. .204s are also comercially availible so civilians could purchase them.

Not all the world is USA...

[VanBuren]

I could agree on the high caliber, but sadly, not all the weapons fit this description.
I'm not an expert, so feel free to correct me, but, actually, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO) is the standard projectile for NATO forces.
And it has lot of problems Vs the living (see "criticism").



Not all the world is USA...

New York is, however. As I understand it, those are the current confines we're working in. Anyway, a zombie torn to shreds is a zombie that cannot move. Undead or no, it needs to use something to move.

[toasty]

FYI Flamethrowers are illegal, their Bad PR and not as effective as stuff like Napalm from an airplane. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

FYI Flamethrowers are illegal, their Bad PR and not as effective as stuff like Napalm from an airplane. :smalltongue:

I seem to remember a cracked article saying it was legal to own a Flamethrower. Illegal to use it on anything living but legal to own. (In the USA anyways)

[Mikeavelli]

Eh, I've never been fond of flamethrowers being used to fight off the zombie hordes. Even normal squishy humans can live for a terrifyingly long time* after being hit by a flamethrower. While a zombie would eventually burn down to nothing in the long term, you'd have to contend with the short term problem of an undead monster craving your delicious brains which is also on fire.


*This is normally measured in seconds or minutes, but it's still terrifying long considering you're on fire.

[Coidzor]

For example what if you are in a dense forest? Jungle? Corn field?

You don't let yourself get into that kind of situation or you're already dead.

You especially don't stand and fight in an area with 0 visibility when you're more mobile than the things pursuing you.

[Demon 997]

You don't let yourself get into that kind of situation or you're already dead.

You especially don't stand and fight in an area with 0 visibility when you're more mobile than the things pursuing you.

Exactly, if you're letting the zombies decide the terms of the engagement you've already lost the fight.

[warty goblin]

Exactly, if you're letting the zombies decide the terms of the engagement you've already lost the fight.

And an insult to the species on top of it all.

I live in Iowa, we've got more corn fields than you can possibly imagine, and it still wouldn't be hard to find a position that didn't offer lots of concealment for braindead maniacs*. Would some people end up getting munched in cornfields? Of course, but hardly enough to determine the outcome of the entire shindig.

*Cow pastures are a logical choice.

[Kittenwolf]

Really, all that it comes down to is:
Once we get to the point where the military are authorised for 'live fire' (ie, it's gone from "Whoa, some weird kind of disease is making people angry" to "Holy crap it's a Zombie Apocalypse!") they will rip the ever loving daylights out of any zombie infestation, provided the military has not been near completely wiped out.

So all we need to know is (note that I'm assuming that the infection is not cureable):
1) Does this variety of zombie infection reach critical mass and wipe out the military or organise resistance before they get authorisation to take needed needed measures?
2) Is this variety of zombie infection transmittable by something other than zombie bite?
If yes, is this other vector quarantine-able?
If no, can it cross oceans?

If #1 is a yes, and/or #2 is a yes, no, yes, we likely lose the country(ies) and possibly continent(s) where the infestation breaks out, massive loss of human life, but then the remaining countries carpet bomb them into glass and move on.
If #2 is a yes, no, yes then we're boned. What we essentially have then is a lethal virus with no vaccine with an in-built method for killing off any who survive the virus. We might have isolated pockets of people who survive for a while, but that's about it.

[Craftworld]

That I know of, there is only one family of bombs that can "glass" an area and that family is the Atomic family and its relatives. So, unless said countries decided to nuke an area then we couldn't glass an area. Nuking is bad because it releases nuclear fallout which in and of itself is radioactive and can cause a nuclear winter which would be worse than a zombie outbreak by a large margin. Imagine winter in the antartic but with radioactive "snow" that doesn't melt and when it touches skin it burns as it radioactively gives off alpha, and beta particles, and gamma waves.

[warty goblin]

That I know of, there is only one family of bombs that can "glass" an area and that family is the Atomic family and its relatives. So, unless said countries decided to nuke an area then we couldn't glass an area. Nuking is bad because it releases nuclear fallout which in and of itself is radioactive and can cause a nuclear winter which would be worse than a zombie outbreak by a large margin. Imagine winter in the antartic but with radioactive "snow" that doesn't melt and when it touches skin it burns as it radioactively gives off alpha, and beta particles, and gamma waves.

Fuel-air bombs do just fine, and don't have any unfortunate lasting side effects. Not as powerful as a nuke, no, but for blowing up meatbags you really don't have to be.

And even if one did have to resort to nukes, there's no reason to launch the entire United States and Soviet arsenals to take out a bunch of defenseless zombies. If you found a horde simply too big to deal with via conventional means - and it would have to be staggeringly large for that to be the case - apply one rather small nuke, stand back, and wait for the stragglers to limp far enough away you can shoot them without roasting your face off.

[Craftworld]

That could be done with conventional smart and dumb bombs.

What I was talking about was actually GLASSING an area. That takes a nuke...unless they now have a glassing bomb.

Also, it wouldn't take the entire Soviet or US nuclear arsenals to start a nuclear winter. Only a fraction of them. The particles go up, hit the jet stream, they hit Major Population Zone on Continent A in a matter of days or hours. Nukes would just be stupid to use on them because a juke would only be called in when total and utter annihilation was needed and I can only think of if Aliens attacked and that was the way that we could take them down. For the moaning meatbags, we don't need nukes.

[Craftworld]

That could be done with conventional smart and dumb bombs.

What I was talking about was actually GLASSING an area. That takes a nuke...unless they now have a glassing bomb.

Also, it wouldn't take the entire Soviet or US nuclear arsenals to start a nuclear winter. Only a fraction of them. The particles go up, hit the jet stream, they hit Major Population Zone on Continent A in a matter of days or hours. Nukes would just be stupid to use on them because a juke would only be called in when total and utter annihilation was needed and I can only think of if Aliens attacked and that was the way that we could take them down. For the moaning meatbags, we don't need nukes.

[Kittenwolf]

That could be done with conventional smart and dumb bombs.

What I was talking about was actually GLASSING an area. That takes a nuke...unless they now have a glassing bomb.


Apologies, too much time spent on various computer games :)
I use the term "Glassing" an area to mean utterly destroying it so that little to no infrastructure (ie, places to hide) remain, not necessarily fusing the place to literal glass.

[warty goblin]

That could be done with conventional smart and dumb bombs.

What I was talking about was actually GLASSING an area. That takes a nuke...unless they now have a glassing bomb.

Also, it wouldn't take the entire Soviet or US nuclear arsenals to start a nuclear winter. Only a fraction of them. The particles go up, hit the jet stream, they hit Major Population Zone on Continent A in a matter of days or hours. Nukes would just be stupid to use on them because a juke would only be called in when total and utter annihilation was needed and I can only think of if Aliens attacked and that was the way that we could take them down. For the moaning meatbags, we don't need nukes.

What you're talking about there is death initially by non-stochastic radiation side effects, followed by a ballooning cancer rate as the stochastic effects kick in. Basically Chernobyl on crack.

Which is a bad thing, but not nuclear winter. That specifically refers to cooling Earth's climate after massive amounts of ash and particulate matter are released into the atmosphere from the massive fires. This would reflect a significant portion of sunlight back into space, thus reducing the heat reaching Earth, plunging it into winter.

This would take a very large nuclear bombardment, much larger than you would expect from a limited, tactical employment against zombies. It'd take, more or less, setting an entire continent on fire.

[Forum Explorer]

I think we can agree that we would not need to do that to get rid of zombies.

[Ricky S]

You don't let yourself get into that kind of situation or you're already dead.

You especially don't stand and fight in an area with 0 visibility when you're more mobile than the things pursuing you.

Yea but what if you didn't let yourself be in that situation but you arrived there anyway? What happens if you child runs into the wooded area? What happens if your plane crashes because you couldnt stop for fuel because of zombies. You cant say it will never happen because you dont know what situation you will find yourself in. Better to be prepared for the worst than to not prepare for it because you dont think it will happen.

Plus just because you are in an area with dense foliage doesn't mean you are dead. It will makes harder of course but it is not a given you will die.

[Forum Explorer]

Yea but what if you didn't let yourself be in that situation but you arrived there anyway? What happens if you child runs into the wooded area? What happens if your plane crashes because you couldnt stop for fuel because of zombies. You cant say it will never happen because you dont know what situation you will find yourself in. Better to be prepared for the worst than to not prepare for it because you dont think it will happen.

Plus just because you are in an area with dense foliage doesn't mean you are dead. It will makes harder of course but it is not a given you will die.

It will be harder to spot zombies and harder to move around but there wouldn't be as many zombies to deal with. Of course if there are zombie animals than going into the woods is borderline sucidal

[warty goblin]

It will be harder to spot zombies and harder to move around but there wouldn't be as many zombies to deal with. Of course if there are zombie animals than going into the woods is borderline sucidal

It does raise interesting questions about how exactly zombies locate people. Sound is obvious, but even a klutz can be pretty quiet if they don't move. If it's by sight a forested or otherwise densely overgrown area could actually be a fairly good place to hide. It's not likely zombies could track, and I can't imagine being borderline dead does much for their eyesight. So long as you got a position where you were able to maintain reasonable situational awareness, a dense woods could be a pretty good bet on second thought.

If its by smell, then probably not so much.

[Demon 997]

Especially if animals don't like zombies, you can use the birds as an alarm system.

[Innis Cabal]

Humans have terrible senses of smell so unless something in the zombifying process changes that then a quick bath and some smoke or other heavy scent will reduce them to blind smelly....oh wait, the smell of their own rotting flesh would get in the way of any scent based sight.

Probably not scent then.

[Ricky S]

It would be by sight and hearing. The same as humans. Touch could come into play only if they were underground or something.

[Killer Angel]

New York is, however. As I understand it, those are the current confines we're working in.

Originally, NY was only an example.


Let's say a city with a population of approximately 1 million is largely infected (ie: New York is a good example but let's not make assumptions about geography).

Now, on ammo:


Anyway, a zombie torn to shreds is a zombie that cannot move. Undead or no, it needs to use something to move.

Agree, but it was kinda my point with the problems of the standard ammunitions of NATO troops:



Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting.
This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment

Zombies shouldn't have a good muscular tone and often lack some tissue, so, with the standard NATO munition, you'll have a hard time trying to stop zombies shreding them to pieces, if the projectiles didn't fragment.


Especially if animals don't like zombies, you can use the birds as an alarm system.

Now, if also animals ARE zombies... (Resident Evil?)

[Ricky S]

Now, if also animals ARE zombies... (Resident Evil?)

The giant crocodile thing scared the hell out of me in Resident evil 4. I walked up to the water and was shooting fish for fun then suddenly it just ate me. It was so sudden I nearly screamed.

[Coidzor]

Yea but what if you didn't let yourself be in that situation but you arrived there anyway? What happens if you child runs into the wooded area? What happens if your plane crashes because you couldnt stop for fuel because of zombies. You cant say it will never happen because you dont know what situation you will find yourself in. Better to be prepared for the worst than to not prepare for it because you dont think it will happen.

...A child running into a wooded area when it and I know about zombies and how dangerous doing so would be? And I'm sure to encounter zombies that I'd have to engage rather than evade them but not sure enough that the kid's not already dead? :smallconfused:

And if your plane crashes you'll be lucky to be alive and able to get out of the crashed plane and move, much less kill zombies in the immediate area to get away. So, again, pretty much living on borrowed time and it'll be a miracle if one survived and so isn't really an example for general use.

I'm not saying it will never happen, I'm saying it's stupid to ever choose to do so willingly and that one is pretty much asking to die by doing so, and as a result, it does not have bearing on general operations against the undead.

[Craftworld]

...A child running into a wooded area when it and I know about zombies and how dangerous doing so would be? And I'm sure to encounter zombies that I'd have to engage rather than evade them but not sure enough that the kid's not already dead? :smallconfused:

And if your plane crashes you'll be lucky to be alive and able to get out of the crashed plane and move, much less kill zombies in the immediate area to get away. So, again, pretty much living on borrowed time and it'll be a miracle if one survived and so isn't really an example for general use.

I'm not saying it will never happen, I'm saying it's stupid to ever choose to do so willingly and that one is pretty much asking to die by doing so, and as a result, it does not have bearing on general operations against the undead.

A. Children do not think with the same cognitive functions as you and I. Danger to them is more in the immediate area and if they don't see or hear things that scare them then they will be fine. Especially in the daytime when I find the woods personally to be very inviting.
B. There are ways to land your plane without crashing it. Highways, flat dirt roads, flat non dirt roads, farms. Basically one can land a plane wherever there is a flat area of terrain large enough to land in that has no vertical obstructions like fences, trees, or houses. It also depends greatly on the size of the plane.
EDIT- It isn't suicide if you know what you are doing. If one has no idea what one is doing then one is already a zombie and therefore this info will be of little use to them. Pretty much what I am saying is that those who have spent time avoiding zombies in the cities and towns can adapt to the forest with a small amount of adaptation. Buildings=large trees, hide behind cover, etc...

[lord_khaine]

No I am really not. I have seen the first hand effect of what a 7.62mm round will do (my friend hunts wild pigs up north). But even with that against a zombie you will want a headshot because you want to kill the zombie as opposed to just disabling it. Thats assuming the round disables it at all. Despite being able to shatter bones it might just deflect off it or it might not hit bone at all. Now you have to fire another round and waste it trying to disable it again. It would be far easier to aim for the head.



Easier to aim, harder to hit.


Even if you disable it and you are not close to it you have just created another hazard. Now you have to go and kill the zombie at close range exposing yourself to more hazards. For example what if you are in a dense forest? Jungle? Corn field? An immobile zombie is still a threat. If I am shooting it I will be sure to aim for the head. Even if it isnt a threat to you anymore what about other survivors? You have just created a possibly lethal scenario for them.

No, an immobile zombie isnt a threat, its something you leave for the wolfs/bears to eat.

And anyone who let themself get caught by an immobile zombie deserves whatever they get.

[Killer Angel]

No, an immobile zombie isnt a threat, its something you leave for the wolfs/bears to eat.


:smalleek:
I wouldn't... the zombie will defend himself, it needs only to scratch the animal, and suddenly, we could have a hungry zombified grizzly. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

:smalleek:
I wouldn't... the zombie will defend himself, it needs only to scratch the animal, and suddenly, we could have a hungry zombified grizzly. :smalltongue:

Its really hard for a human to scratch or bite an animal like a grizzly through their thick fur. To try it go bite someone wearing a huge winter jacket.

[Coidzor]

:smalleek:
I wouldn't... the zombie will defend himself, it needs only to scratch the animal, and suddenly, we could have a hungry zombified grizzly. :smalltongue:

Which gets... really slow and bloated and unable to attack as effectively as a living grizzly. I mean, sure, it'd be resistant to headshots, but that's about it.

[Killer Angel]

Its really hard for a human to scratch or bite an animal like a grizzly through their thick fur. To try it go bite someone wearing a huge winter jacket.

A scratch on the muzzle while the bear bites the belly, couldn't be impossible... that said:


Which gets... really slow and bloated and unable to attack as effectively as a living grizzly. I mean, sure, it'd be resistant to headshots, but that's about it.

Bah. The zombie killed the bear, and you killed the fun... :smallwink:
(BTW: I were a bear, i'd stay far away from that stinkin corpse. +1 for salmons!)


Anyway, no one debates my points about the weakness of standard NATO ammo Vs zombies?

[Coidzor]

Bah. The zombie killed the bear, and you killed the fun... :smallwink:

Sadly not as exciting as killing trains. :smallfrown:


Anyway, no one debates my points about the weakness of standard NATO ammo Vs zombies?

I don't really know one way or the other. I remember there was one type of ammunition that was brought up as being bad for zombies due to its tendency to pass through a human body without inflicting much damage at all and just making a small hole. This was used to support the idea of .22s as the idea anti-zombie armament due to the bullet only having enough force to penetrate one layer of skull and then bouncing around in there to get the brains nice and stirred up for maximum damage without destroying the head outright.

[Worira]

I would not trust a .22 to reliably penetrate a human skull at range.

And no, I don't think a single shot or even a short burst of 5.56 ammo to the torso would do a whole lot to a zombie, if they're of the "needs headshot" variety. However, the 5.56 is a very accurate round, and an individual soldier can carry a whole lot of them, making them quite good at picking off zombies at a distance. And shooting a long burst at short range is going to shred a zombie, even without a headshot.

[Craftworld]

It depends on the type of zombie that is being discussed.
A. True undead- No nerves, magically created by a central source. 5.56 mm rounds will do little but larger slower rounds like .45 cal or their equivalent will tear them up. (no legs or arms, no problem)
B. Left 4 Dead zombies- Disease that raises dead individuals. Suppossed little nerve to brain contact so same as above. Fast speed. (Possible sub types such as Tanks and Boomers but most likely not that different)
C. Rabies sub type- Pretty much rabies that is suped up and allows for greater strength but like rabies dissolves the brain slowly so they do feel pain but towards the end of their "life span" they become tougher to bring down toward the end.
D. Rabies sub type/L4D higher nerve content- This type takes into account the zombie games and things where the zombies are not as tough because they still feel some semblance of pain and therefore can be brought down more easily.

[Killer Angel]

However, the 5.56 is a very accurate round, and an individual soldier can carry a whole lot of them, making them quite good at picking off zombies at a distance.

This is true. However...


And shooting a long burst at short range is going to shred a zombie, even without a headshot.

the standard NATO 5.56, showed documented problems (didn't fragment), when fired from long range. And at short range, it has the same problems, when fired at weak and thin individuals, or passing through only minimal tissue, such as a limb (or a ragged zombie without good muscolar tone): the target lacks resistance, and the projectile pass through it, without fragment.

So my hypotesis, is that regular troops, could have, actually, some problems facing hordes of zombies. (of course heavy weapons support, helps a lot, but I'm talking 'bout the majority of the standard weapons)

[Ricky S]

...A child running into a wooded area when it and I know about zombies and how dangerous doing so would be? And I'm sure to encounter zombies that I'd have to engage rather than evade them but not sure enough that the kid's not already dead? :smallconfused:

And if your plane crashes you'll be lucky to be alive and able to get out of the crashed plane and move, much less kill zombies in the immediate area to get away. So, again, pretty much living on borrowed time and it'll be a miracle if one survived and so isn't really an example for general use.

I'm not saying it will never happen, I'm saying it's stupid to ever choose to do so willingly and that one is pretty much asking to die by doing so, and as a result, it does not have bearing on general operations against the undead.

Sorry but I really have to disagree with you on that last point. By your logic the military shouldnt prepare for downed helicopters because they shouldnt be shot down. Doctors shouldn't treat people who hurt themselves doing stupid things. Electricians shouldnt fix power to the houses of people who accidentally cut it. It isn't stupid to go into the enclosed area. Sometimes you have to do it. You can never say it wont happen to me because I am too smart, or too fast, etc. It can happen to anyone regardless of their experience and training. For example my friends dad was in the army. He had been in service for 8 years and despite this he still walked into an ambush which could have been easily prevented. People make mistakes it is as simple as that. Sometimes you have to go and fix them.

Everything has a bearing on operations against the undead. Ok so you live in a city? I am assuming and you have large open spaces with only roads and concrete and large houses to barricade so you personally might never leave the comfort of the city. What about the millions of people living in rural areas? They have to deal with these situations whether they want to or not.

I'll give you some more scenarios where you have to go into the woods/jungle/corn fields. Any one of these could happen therefore planning for this is definately advisable.
-You are hiking when the zombie apocalypse breaks out unknown to you. As you walk along a zombie attacks you. You flee but now have a 2 hour trip back to the safety of your car. Can you make it through the zombie infested mountains?
-You recieve a distress call from a family holed up in their log cabin.
-The supply crate dropped by the military lands off course. Go retrieve it.
-Your wife is kidnapped by other survivors. You can hear her scream as they take her away. You have to go and rescue her.
-Your favourite dog "rover" is spooked by the sound of the undead horde and flees. You have to go find him.
-Your car breaks down. You climb to the top of a hill and see a house in the distance. Guess what? There is a wooded area between you and the house.
-You are travelling along a highway but suddenly the road ahead is thick with undead. You try turning your car around but they are coming from both directions drawn to you by the sound of the engine. You have no choice but to abandon your car and run into the forest to escape the undead.
-Your parents live in a rural suburb. You want to get to them but the roads have been cut by a massive car pile up. You have to go on foot. And guess whats in your path?
-Your father owns a farm determined to keep his family alive he continues farming and fighting off the zombies with his 12 guage. However one day you hear him screaming for help. From your farmhouse you can see the tractor has flipped pinning him down. You have to get to him. A field of sugar cane lies between you and him and zombies are closing in.
-Your township has banded together to fight off the hordes. They have erected fences to stop the undead. But a disease breaks out and there aren't any medical supplies which can handle it. You have to leave the safety of your town to get supplies from the hospital 10 kms away. You have to walk on foot through the rainforest to get there.

I could go on all day but hopefully you get the point that these things could definately happen.

The issue with the 5.56 mm round:

Yes it can be very accurate when fired from certain guns. Yes it can easily penetrate the head of a zombie. No a few rounds into the zombies chest will not stop it even at close ranges. Even if you fire your full 30 rounds into a zombie chances are it is not going to kill it. It might damage it a lot and cause large holes in it but it wont destroy it. Always aim for the head where you are guaranteed a kill if you hit it (disregarding the times you may just glance the skull and it deflects off the bone). Hollow points might have more effect but you are still better off aiming for the head.

"No, an immobile zombie isnt a threat, its something you leave for the wolfs/bears to eat.

And anyone who let themself get caught by an immobile zombie deserves whatever they get."

Wrong. An immobile zombie is still a threat. Chances are there are plenty of them which have had their legs damaged or they had no legs to begin with. They are too weak from lack of flesh too walk around anymore, they have learnt to ambush their prey, etc. Now just because they are immobile means nothing. They can still bite you and still grab you. There are endless situations where you can be bitten by an unseen zombie. Darkness, terrain, buildings can all play a part in this making it easier for the zombie and a lot harder for you. That is one of the reasons why wearing bite proof clothes is so important. Because the zombies you can see arent as much of a threat as the zombies you cant see. Never assume something isnt a threat because it cant move.

I played a childhood game similar to red rover. One person could move and tag people. If you were tagged you had to sit down on the spot and could only tag people if they came within arms reach. Sounds easy to avoid? It is easy until there are about 30 kids all sitting in front of you with their arms outstretched. Now what happens if you take that situation and make the playing space a lot smaller. Say you are in an abandoned corridor and there are numerous upturned beds and obstacles. You can see zombies they are immobile but still deadly. Your gun has run out of ammunition and your axe broke a while ago. You have to get through the corridor. How easy is it to avoid them now?

[warty goblin]

I played a childhood game similar to red rover. One person could move and tag people. If you were tagged you had to sit down on the spot and could only tag people if they came within arms reach. Sounds easy to avoid? It is easy until there are about 30 kids all sitting in front of you with their arms outstretched. Now what happens if you take that situation and make the playing space a lot smaller. Say you are in an abandoned corridor and there are numerous upturned beds and obstacles. You can see zombies they are immobile but still deadly. Your gun has run out of ammunition and your axe broke a while ago. You have to get through the corridor. How easy is it to avoid them now?

I go get just about anything heavy, sharp or preferably both. Ax, pickax, machete, sledge hammer, baseball bat, length of 2x4, cinderblock, the butt of my rifle, filing cabinet drawer, whatever. Finding objects capable of smashing somebody's head isn't hard, and being immobile and stupid, floor zombies are not going to be able to mount an effective resistance. So I proceed at a reasonable pace, smashing in the heads of any that are in my way.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I go get just about anything heavy, sharp or preferably both. Ax, pickax, machete, sledge hammer, baseball bat, length of 2x4, cinderblock, the butt of my rifle, filing cabinet drawer, whatever. Finding objects capable of smashing somebody's head isn't hard, and being immobile and stupid, floor zombies are not going to be able to mount an effective resistance. So I proceed at a reasonable pace, smashing in the heads of any that are in my way.

There was a case in Sweden 4 years ago when a crazy man attacked a father and his two children with a knife. The father took the only weapon he had close by to defend himself, a hammer, and struck the crazy man in the head. He struck the crazy man more then 20 times, and the man still did'nt go down. When the police came the guy was still alive, and sure, he had lost an eye and most of his higher brain functions. But he lived.

Human heads are hard. Very, very hard.

Edit: The thing's I underlined are things that will most likely break themselves long before the human skull does.

[Forum Explorer]

zombies can't learn or truely think. This is a cruical universal part of zombies. Any ambushes they do is purely by accident. Also a zombie will try and chase you even if it can't move its legs by dragging its body on its arms.

A zombie without legs isn't much of a threat and can generally be easily avoided till someone better armed can go deal with it, or so that you can get an appropriate weapon. Forest zombies are only slightly harder to deal with because you can't see them from far off. Still there are advantages such as a quicker degeneration of zombies, and more terrain to use to your advantage.

[Folytopo]

To be fair, most designs of hammer are meant to spread the weight of the hit out, to preserve what ever is being pounded in. I have been hit with a sledge hammer while working and it stings like crazy and welted good but I got better. No something with a smaller surface area like a grub hoe, shovel, or branch trimmer, those would be useful melee weapons.

[lord_khaine]

A zombie without legs isn't much of a threat and can generally be easily avoided till someone better armed can go deal with it, or so that you can get an appropriate weapon. Forest zombies are only slightly harder to deal with because you can't see them from far off. Still there are advantages such as a quicker degeneration of zombies, and more terrain to use to your advantage.

Actualy, i think a forrest would be a better place to fight zombies in general.

You will certainly hear them moving around before they notice you, and the terrain would slow them down a lot more than it would hinder you.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

To be fair, most designs of hammer are meant to spread the weight of the hit out, to preserve what ever is being pounded in. I have been hit with a sledge hammer while working and it stings like crazy and welted good but I got better. No something with a smaller surface area like a grub hoe, shovel, or branch trimmer, those would be useful melee weapons.

I agree, most objects that one would think of is good to smash human heads with are not actually that good at it. You need something heavy and sharp. A pick axe would be great. The reason I brougt it up was the comment that it is easy to find an object that can smash a human head. It's a lot harder than one might think (Police 'sticks' have no chance at all).

I would probably go for an axe, it's useful for alot of things and can be used quite nicely without you getting tired after one swing.

[bladesyz]

zombies can't learn or truely think. This is a cruical universal part of zombies. Any ambushes they do is purely by accident. Also a zombie will try and chase you even if it can't move its legs by dragging its body on its arms.

A zombie without legs isn't much of a threat and can generally be easily avoided till someone better armed can go deal with it, or so that you can get an appropriate weapon. Forest zombies are only slightly harder to deal with because you can't see them from far off. Still there are advantages such as a quicker degeneration of zombies, and more terrain to use to your advantage.

So you're going back to the argument that zombies without legs can be easily avoided, even though it's been pointed out that even low-mobility zombies can be a threat if there are a lot of them or if you have to navigate through tight spaces.

Humans grow a skull for a reason: to protect their brains. Human brains are extremely fragile: any minor hemorrhage threatens higher thought processes and the regulation of vital organs. Zombies, on the other hand, has neither of those concerns. Their brains are going to be a lot more sturdy (simply by virtue of the fact that most of it would be just as dead as the rest of them), and concussive force won't do much.

Also, how many people here have actually tried to swing something as big as a pick-axe and hit a target the size of a human head? It's not as easy as it sounds, and you'll probably miss quite a few times even with some practice. Plus, if any gore sprays on you while you dispatch zombies, you're under a pretty big risk of getting infected yourself.

[Forum Explorer]

So you're going back to the argument that zombies without legs can be easily avoided, even though it's been pointed out that even low-mobility zombies can be a threat if there are a lot of them or if you have to navigate through tight spaces.

Humans grow a skull for a reason: to protect their brains. Human brains are extremely fragile: any minor hemorrhage threatens higher thought processes and the regulation of vital organs. Zombies, on the other hand, has neither of those concerns. Their brains are going to be a lot more sturdy (simply by virtue of the fact that most of it would be just as dead as the rest of them), and concussive force won't do much.

Also, how many people here have actually tried to swing something as big as a pick-axe and hit a target the size of a human head? It's not as easy as it sounds, and you'll probably miss quite a few times even with some practice. Plus, if any gore sprays on you while you dispatch zombies, you're under a pretty big risk of getting infected yourself.

I can't think of a situation where I would absolutly need to get past a group of crippled zombies instead of turing around and finding a better path. Sure they are still a threat but they aren't much of one. They can be easily defeated by just going around them, or slowly destroying them with a proper weapon.

Speaking of weapons my preferred would be a halberd. Gives me distance and a good chopping option. In close weapon would be a warhammer or a morningstar (Not a flail those are too difficult to use.)

If I had to stay with mundane stuff than an axe with a machete backup.

[warty goblin]

So you're going back to the argument that zombies without legs can be easily avoided, even though it's been pointed out that even low-mobility zombies can be a threat if there are a lot of them or if you have to navigate through tight spaces.

To return to the subject of the thread, aka the military, this doesn't seem like a large problem. They're unlikely to run out of ammo - and downed zombies would take about a bullet each - and can probably call for back up should it be necessary.


Humans grow a skull for a reason: to protect their brains. Human brains are extremely fragile: any minor hemorrhage threatens higher thought processes and the regulation of vital organs. Zombies, on the other hand, has neither of those concerns. Their brains are going to be a lot more sturdy (simply by virtue of the fact that most of it would be just as dead as the rest of them), and concussive force won't do much.
There's no reason to think that the portions of the brain controlling motor function would be any more durable than usual, and grey matter isn't going to prove much of an obstacle. It might take another hit, but in the scenario given, that's not something that would be hard to accomplish.


Also, how many people here have actually tried to swing something as big as a pick-axe and hit a target the size of a human head? It's not as easy as it sounds, and you'll probably miss quite a few times even with some practice. Plus, if any gore sprays on you while you dispatch zombies, you're under a pretty big risk of getting infected yourself.
I have. It's not hard.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Also, how many people here have actually tried to swing something as big as a pick-axe and hit a target the size of a human head? It's not as easy as it sounds, and you'll probably miss quite a few times even with some practice. Plus, if any gore sprays on you while you dispatch zombies, you're under a pretty big risk of getting infected yourself.




I have. It's not hard.

I have. Chopping wood is easy, chopping heads, might be harder. It gets harder each time due to the weight of the thing youre swinging (that's why I'd prefer an axe). Also even an Zombie that can't walk can move its head, and if you miss just a little the Zombie will most likely grab you weapen and then you have to wrestle it back.

Not recomended.

[TheArsenal]

I have. Chopping wood is easy, chopping heads, might be harder. It gets harder each time due to the weight of the thing youre swinging (that's why I'd prefer an axe). Also even an Zombie that can't walk can move its head, and if you miss just a little the Zombie will most likely grab you weapen and then you have to wrestle it back.

Not recomended.

Yep. Something VERY SLOW. That can be pushed over and cut.

[warty goblin]

I have. Chopping wood is easy, chopping heads, might be harder. It gets harder each time due to the weight of the thing youre swinging (that's why I'd prefer an axe). Also even an Zombie that can't walk can move its head, and if you miss just a little the Zombie will most likely grab you weapen and then you have to wrestle it back.

Not recomended.

Zombies are brainless. They might know to dodge, but grabbing a weapon? Strikes me as outside of their usual skillset.

[bladesyz]

Zombies are brainless. They might know to dodge, but grabbing a weapon? Strikes me as outside of their usual skillset.

Zombies will grab whatever they can grab to get at the person attached to the weapon. Doesn't require a lot of intelligence to do that, just basic spatial awareness.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Yep. Something VERY SLOW. That can be pushed over and cut.

If it was that simple this discussion would have ended a long time ago. In most Zombie movies the zombies are not slower then us at close range.


Zombies are brainless. They might know to dodge, but grabbing a weapon? Strikes me as outside of their usual skillset.

A zombie without legs grabs the ground to drag itself forward. A zombie might be able to climb over low walls by dragging itself over it. It might just grab the weapon to drag itself towards you.

The problem here is that there is no real established type of zombie we are discusing. Everybody have their own interpetration. The ones who support the military suggest zombies that will fall to bits if you sneze at them and wich are so stupid they are below bacteria. Also the outbreak is completly centerd to one small location and the military are emediatly granted the use of deadly force and ordnance. Inside of the city.

Yeah, the military will win.

On the other side are the close to impossible to destroy zombie who is almost as smart as a human, superstrong and really fast. The outbreak happen at several places at the same time and the military is out of the game from the start.

Yeah, the zombies will win.

Maybe instead of arguing over strawmen people could find a common definition we can all agree on and go from there?

[Craftworld]

Let's take a look at the human brain, shall we?

Occipital lobe-Back of the brain, just above the Cerebelum. Take out this and the zombie cannot see.
Parietal lobe-Just above and in front of the Occipital lobe. Take this part of the brain out and the zombie will have no way to grab things because it will not know how to solve the simplest of problems. (like climbing a wall or openning a door or grabbing a weapon)
Temporal lobe-Below and in front of the Occipital lobe and below the Parietal lobe. Here lies the brain's ability to hear and to process the more detailled visual sights. (terrain, scenery, faces, other zombies) Take it out and the zombie may just see blurs of colors and in its hunger attack other zombies.
Frontal lobe-Front of the brain. This lobe contains the center for higher brain function like good and bad, better and best. Although here and in all zombie conversations that I have been in, zombies already are lacking function here.

See earlier post by me that had the types of zombies that I could come up with. It should be a good place to start if we need to decide what zombies that we are talking about.

[Ricky S]

Well the two most common types of zombies are:

The classic george Romero zombies. They are slow. They are stupid. But when they form into large groups they are a real threat. They also have the ability to slowly learn new things. They require a headshot and are immune to all other damage except perhaps fire.

The other most common type is the new zombie. It is not a true zombie because technically it is still alive but it is infected with, depending on the setting, Rage, Green flu, Super Rabies, etc. They are fast and basically human. They are more of a threat by themselves and even more so when they are running in groups. They are however easier to kill. They suffer from the same problems as humans to. They have a weakness to bullets. You can shoot them anywhere and it will kill them. They can also have an expiration date as was the case in 28 days later.

There are also subtypes of these main two.
Resident evil mutated zombies.
Super intelligient super human zombies in Day of the Dead
Fast infected zombies in Zombieland
Fast undead in Dawn of the dead.

If you are looking for realism then the new type of zombie is it. They are not actually dead, they can suffer from malnutrition, their bodies can only handle as much damage and stress as we can. With the multitude of virus' and diseases out there it is plausible that a zombie infection could be made. Indeed there are some scientists working to try and make a zombie infection. They are trying to accelerate and increase the effects of rabies among other things.

However I am sure that the majority of the people think of zombies as slow and undead. Individually weak but together a great threat.

[Forum Explorer]

you missed a zombie. The classic raised by dark powers of evil, techinaclly indestructable and only stops going after you when you've reduced it to ground meat.

[Tyrant]

The problem here is that there is no real established type of zombie we are discusing. Everybody have their own interpetration. The ones who support the military suggest zombies that will fall to bits if you sneze at them and wich are so stupid they are below bacteria. Also the outbreak is completly centerd to one small location and the military are emediatly granted the use of deadly force and ordnance. Inside of the city.

Yeah, the military will win.

On the other side are the close to impossible to destroy zombie who is almost as smart as a human, superstrong and really fast. The outbreak happen at several places at the same time and the military is out of the game from the start.

Yeah, the zombies will win.

Maybe instead of arguing over strawmen people could find a common definition we can all agree on and go from there?
I'm in agreement with most of this. I am wondering exactly which zombies we are talking about? The Romero scenario, for instance, is quite different from what is being discussed by the pro military side. Given that it is the most well known (or possiby second to Resident Evil) and a major driving force of the genre as we know it existing, I find this kind of odd. The Romero zombies are not absolutely brainless. In the first 5 minutes of the first movie the first zombie we see is smart enough to pick up a rock, off the ground, to smash out a window to get at the woman inside. That is not brainless. Throw in the later movies and it becomes apparent that they can learn (or possibly relearn). It also represents the most wide spread threat since it is everyone, everywhere, who dies comes back as a zombie. Everyday. In my opinion, only the T Virus outbreak scenario is worse. Though if you want to use a really dire scenario, use the zombies from Return of the Living Dead (part 1, only part 1, because the rules change from one movie to the next as the series progresses). They can run, they can think and talk, the only way to destroy them is to burn them which releases the chemical that reanimated them and causes acid rain to fall which goes through the ground and coffins and reanimates more super zombies. Destroying their brain does not stop them (even though that defies all logic since they are science zombies even though they act like unstoppable magic zombies). Have them pop up in several cities around the world due to Trioxin-245 leaks.

I think the Romero set up could end up with the world in ruins, if certain things happen along the way. I think if it isn't addressed globally within hours that it could be enough. In the modernized countries, a lot of people die in hospitals. At the onset, anyone who dies with family members around them stands a real good chance of going from the 1 initial zombie to 2-3 zombies plus bite victims that will become zombies in a matter of minutes. Then it snowballs as they start attacking the other sick and dying patients. Some hospitals could be severely crippled, which means other folks who might normally survive their wounds who come seeking treatment won't make it, meaning less people and potentially more zombies. I believe emergency services will be hit very hard if solid info is not widespread very quickly. There is no virus, so I have no idea what the CDC will try to study. There will also be an initial time period of nonbelief when the powers that be do decide to tell everyone what's going on. Then there will likely be a huge panic, which means more deaths and more zombies. If order can't be maintained (police abandoning theirr posts to protect their families, not anywhere near enough soldiers to put them everywhere that's critical, not everyone who owns guns is interested in playing nice with their neighbors in a mass panic scenario, etc) then the system breaks down. People gut the grocery stores (and some die in the panic), most deliveries grind to a halt (and stores don't really have as much on hand as some people may think), employees at critical jobs don't show up to work (power plants, water purification/sewage plants, canning/packaging/shipping food, etc) and then the panic ramps up to 11. Most people don't have enough food and water to last very long in their house once they no longer have electricity and gas. Countries with less developed infrastructure will crumble that much faster. A country bombing it's own major cities will be an absolute last resort (and be largely useless). There is way too much critical infastructure in the major cities to destroy them lightly. You have major ports, airports, highway/interstate/rail interchanges, refineries, offices of major corporations, factories, warehouses, stockyards, distributions centers, government facilities, etc. The kinds of things you need to keep around if you have any interest in rejoining the modern world after you deal with the zombie problem, in other words.

Like I said, it would have to happen at just the right moment and have certain dominos fall in the perfect way, but I can see it leading to global devastation before anyone is able to get any real level of control. It would require the governments initially not telling people about the problem, people not initially believing it when they do announce it, a degree of hesitation on the part of most people when it comes to blasting former human beings in the head, and certain people and groups using the new rules of life to further their own goals. I do believe there are individuals and groups who would see this as either a sign of some type (the dead rising from the grave) or that their moment to spread global or regional chaos has finally come and they will do what they can to make things as bad as they can. I can't elaborate for board rules related reasons, but I am sure if anyone wants to know who I probably mean they can use their imagination. I can see the miliary stopping it (in several countries at least) if they spring into action quickly. Given the way the U.S. at least is quite selective in which threats it chooses to deal with and which ones it allows to get worse and worse by inaction I am not overly optimistic of the response time.

[Craftworld]

you missed a zombie. The classic raised by dark powers of evil, techinaclly indestructable and only stops going after you when you've reduced it to ground meat.

Oh, sorry, I did only the ones that I remembered. Those are bad, why did I forget them?
The brain post still stands for most of the zombies except for the dark powers ones which live by necrotic evil magic.

[Demon 997]

Could we use the zombie survival guide zombies? minus the stupidity about them being nearly immune to explosives, but that was technically world war z

[VanBuren]

And let's not forget the original zombie: a dead person revived and controlled by a sorcerer, and whose soul is kept in a bottle to augment the sorcerer's strength.

[Craftworld]

Could we use the zombie survival guide zombies? minus the stupidity about them being nearly immune to explosives, but that was technically world war z

How were they nearly immune to explosives? The blast may not kill them but it would damage limbs severely by ripping them off and not just arms and legs but also the head. There have been soldiers that their only wound was from an explosion...but it decapitated them. The shrapnel and debris sent up from the blast wave would also rip them apart.

[Demon 997]

How were they nearly immune to explosives? The blast may not kill them but it would damage limbs severely by ripping them off and not just arms and legs but also the head. There have been soldiers that their only wound was from an explosion...but it decapitated them. The shrapnel and debris sent up from the blast wave would also rip them apart.

I mainly meant the scene where the horde was barely slowed by heavy bombing. I don't have to book to hand, so I can't get into more detail.

[Mewtarthio]

I mainly meant the scene where the horde was barely slowed by heavy bombing.

Unless they're using cherry bombs or poor box office returns, that seems just a touch unrealistic. :smallsigh:

[Forum Explorer]

Unless they're using cherry bombs or poor box office returns, that seems just a touch unrealistic. :smallsigh:

Thats not the worst of it. There are some other really bad and unrealistic parts of that book as well. (A Flail does more same:smallredface: damage than a crowbar. Why would you even say this book? :smallfrown:)

[warty goblin]

Thats not the worst of it. There are some other really bad and unrealistic parts of that book as well. (A Flail does more damage than a crowbar. Why would you even say this book? :smallfrown:)

In the hands of a fairly strong person who knows what they're doing, I'm actually not sure that's unrealistic. You are after all dealing with what amounts to a crowbar with a bit of chain in the middle and an end specifically designed to obliterate whomever is unlucky enough to be on the receiving side. A crowbar by comparison really doesn't have a particularly optimum striking surface - it works because it's a big chunk of metal, not because it's a big chunk of metal that's designed to bash in skulls. I suspect that thanks to the chain one can get the head of a flail to hit harder than can be accomplished with the same swing of a solid weapon.

The downside of course is that unless you really do know what you're doing, the thing you hit is as likely to be your own kneecap as a zombie's head.

[Forum Explorer]

In the hands of a fairly strong person who knows what they're doing, I'm actually not sure that's unrealistic. You are after all dealing with what amounts to a crowbar with a bit of chain in the middle and an end specifically designed to obliterate whomever is unlucky enough to be on the receiving side. A crowbar by comparison really doesn't have a particularly optimum striking surface - it works because it's a big chunk of metal, not because it's a big chunk of metal that's designed to bash in skulls. I suspect that thanks to the chain one can get the head of a flail to hit harder than can be accomplished with the same swing of a solid weapon.

The downside of course is that unless you really do know what you're doing, the thing you hit is as likely to be your own kneecap as a zombie's head.

Sorry I miswrote what the book says. It say that a flail does the Same damage as a crowbar. That's what I have a problem with it.

[Coidzor]

Sorry I miswrote what the book says. It say that a flail does the Same damage as a crowbar. That's what I have a problem with it.

You should probably elaborate on why this is a problem for you, because I'm not quite grokking whether it's because you think one is more dangerous or the other is less or if it's because of the holiness of the crowbar or a reaction against people's fetishization of the crowbar...

WHAT?!

[warty goblin]

You should probably elaborate on why this is a problem for you, because I'm not quite grokking whether it's because you think one is more dangerous or the other is less or if it's because of the holiness of the crowbar or a reaction against people's fetishization of the crowbar...

WHAT?!

Probably common sense. A crowbar is a large bit of metal designed for general purpose demolition. A flail is a somewhat smaller bit of metal very particularly designed for demolishing people's faces. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to infer that the latter is probably a better skull-smasher than the former.

[Forum Explorer]

Probably common sense. A crowbar is a large bit of metal designed for general purpose demolition. A flail is a somewhat smaller bit of metal very particularly designed for demolishing people's faces. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to infer that the latter is probably a better skull-smasher than the former.

More or less this. A crowbar would be better because its easy to use and has more uses than just bashing zombies. But a flail is better for bashing zombies if you know how to use it and have protective gear just in case.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

More or less this. A crowbar would be better because its easy to use and has more uses than just bashing zombies. But a flail is better for bashing zombies if you know how to use it and have protective gear just in case.

I would recomend a mace or morningstar though. Easier to use and very well designed for bashing skulls. I actually tested a heavy mace at a cocconut.

Hehehe!
That was lots and lots of fun.

[Forum Explorer]

I would recomend a mace or morningstar though. Easier to use and very well designed for bashing skulls. I actually tested a heavy mace at a cocconut.

Hehehe!
That was lots and lots of fun.

Yeah either those would be my weapon of choice at close range. Or mabey just some heavy duty gauntlets.


By the way in which zombie media is being scratched by a zombie a source of infection?

[Killer Angel]

By the way in which zombie media is being scratched by a zombie a source of infection?

Almost all.
All the zombie-Romero serie (and remakes), 28 days after, Resident evil...

[Nightson]

The World War Z bombing scene is in the context of a horde of millions of zombies (drawn out of a major city). The explosives were high explosives, any shrapnel generated was extra. In the book, this simply didn't do that much to the horde, it killed zombies to be sure, but the point of the book was more that while each bomb might kill a few hundred zombies, it didn't disrupt the horde and the bombs cost a whole bunch of money and the money of the entire support structure to make them and deliver them. If the zombies had reacted like humans there would have been far more dazed, confused and panicked.