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View Full Version : 3.5 Spiked chain martial rogue, or TWF Rogue/Swash?



vageta31
2011-02-10, 05:40 PM
I already posted a thread about my general newness to D&D but as I'm working on my character background I came up with 2 character themes. The traditional two weapon fighting rogue mixing with swashbuckler and utilizing daring outlaw. And a spiked chain wielding rogue that takes the martial rogue variant giving up all sneak attack in lieu of the bonus fighter feats therefore letting me focus all of my chain wielding feats.

Question is basically do both options equal out in group effectiveness, or is one much better? On paper both sound great, but since I've never played before I'm sure somethings just won't work like expected. My thinking is SA just won't happen as much as I'd like, so the more well rounded spiked chain would come in handier and more than make up for the loss of sneak attack.


Some basic info:

DM is a first timer(thus I don't want to get overly complicated and make his first trip out a complete headache). He played a 4 year campaign with 3.5 rules during his college years so he has a good amount of experience. He wants to build a custom world for us based around all of our backstories. He's being pretty open about our builds so far, so long as they make sense. Prestige classes are ok, as are some classes from the "complete" books and such. However personally I don't want to use anything from ToB. Personal choice and to make it easier on his first time. Maybe as time goes by that will change, but for now somewhat simple.

Party is:

Human Rogue (me)
Uber dwarf cleric (his rolls were insane)
Half-Orc fighter
Human Ranger (archery specialist, so no melee)
Gnome Wizard

My rolls:

17
15
15
14
10
8

I knew we needed some sort of roguish build for traps and scouting and such so I chose that path. However that doesn't mean I want to go full rogue in all ways, I like the boost in skill points and such but want more BAB and hps by multiclassing.

My original plan for stats was:

8(cha), 10(wis), 17(dex), 15(str), 15(con),14(int)

All based on my original idea of a Rogue/Fighter. However I thought a lot about it and realized I want to be the charismatic face of the party because DM hinted a lot about not just fighting. He wants us to have to RP a bit when we change classes and talked about dealing with NPCs and such. Plus the idea of true RP instead of just killing everything in sight really intrigues me. After a lot of thought and reading I've come up with 2 options and I'd like some ideas on which may suit the party and my own power the best.

Option 1:

Rogue/Swashbuckler

17(dex), 14(con), 14(int), 14(cha), 10(str), 8(wis)

Basically 4 level of Rogue and the rest swashbuckler in order to keep up a lot of skills, get a nice BAB and stack it all together with Daring Outlaw. Basic theme is the charismatic finesse fighter that can do a little bit of everything. Planning on focusing on social skills and UMD(thus the higher cha),the basic rogue dex skills, movement like tumble(and jump synergy) and then going lighter in the scouting department since we do have a Ranger.

Fighting style is TWF with rapiers, taking advantage of free swashbuckler weapon finesse. Insightful strike to gain bonus damage with INT intsead of str, and shield of blades ACF to get free 2ac bonus assuming I'll be in the fray quite a bit since I'm the only other melee fighter. Going to try and talk DM into letting me take Rogue ACF penetrating strike so that I can still do damage against the usual non SA creatures.

Main idea is to boost my SA damage using the two weapons, and tumble around the combat field in order to try and flank enemies and catch them flat footed. Daring outlaw will let my SA damage scale with swashbuckler levels and hopefully DM will let me take some skill tricks from complete scoundrel. But that's about as complex as I'd like to go for DM(and my) first campaign.

Something like:

Rogue 1)TWF, Combat Initiative
Swash 2) weapon finesse
Rogue 3-5) to pickup uncanny dodge, 2d6 SA for daring outlaw, etc..
Swash 6- xx) to finish out my swashbuckler skill and keep the 4x skill mods and 10d HD.

Seems like a nice solid build that will give me really good SA damage *if* I can find ways to maximize it's use. Hardest part is trying to spread my skill points enough to focus on as much "face" skills as I can, keeping tumble and UMD maxed and then putting the rest into rogues skills and a couple skill tricks.


Now after getting this all worked out I had one other idea after reading about variant classes and different fighting styles. Here is the idea...

Spiked Chain Wielding Martial Rogue

Basic idea is to give up my SA completely in order to get more feats to specialize in a more direct fighting style, on the premise that SA is great but only if you can get them regularly. Getting more normal damage and different fighting techniques could be more worthwhile for group. I'd still get all of my normal rogue like skills and can still be a face, but I give up all SA damage in exchange for better average damage. Plus I have a feeling in this group I'll be having to do more regular melee and may not be able to rely on trying to SA everything into oblivion. Something like:

Rogue 1) EWP Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes(extra fighter feat)
Swash 2) Weapon Finesse(free), Arcane Stunt ACF
Rogue 3) Evasion(free), Improved Disarm(free fighter feat)
Rogue 4) Uncanny Dodge(free), Power Attack??
Swash 5) (lost grace from arcane stunt)
Swash 6) Insightful strike(int dmg boost)
etc...

So with that in mind could this work out just as good? I'm thinking with high dex bonus and combat reflexes, I'd get a huge amount of AoO and can then use them for tripping and hopefully get some free attacks. Can use arcane stunt tricks and tumbling to move around the battlefield with my 10` threat range. My hope is that with a huge threat range and movement capability I could really have some control. Creatures trying to get to the casters? Expedious retreat backwards ahead of them, then they have to pass through my threat range where I can get free attacks and hopefully trips or disarms.

So after all that wall of text it really boils down to this.

Which build do you think has the best possibilities for this party?

If answer is number 2, what path should I take overall? Stick to Rogue just enough to get uncanny dodge and lots of skill points, then go all fighter? I was thinking enough swashbuckler to get the Insightful strike, Arcane stunts(I like options) and free weapon finesse. Since I won't get grace or any dodge bonus stacking from daring outlaw, I see no need to go more than 3 levels of swash. I like the higher level special feats, but even though they get d10 HD, I'd lose out of the extra fighter feats which is the entire reason for getting rid of Sneak attack. I'll also take a few skill tricks(if DM lets me) to give me even more "ace up my sleeve" options. Fighters have crappy skill points so very hard for them to waste any on tricks. Rogue has a lot and can spare a few.

So 4 rogue, 3 swash, then all fighter to get tons of feats and the d10 HD. That way I go skill heavy in the beginning, then once I go swash/fighter I can just pump the rest into tumble, UMD and whatever else I decide to keep up.


Sorry for that huge wall of text but I'm super excited and want my character to be fun and useful. I like both ideas since both will give me something to do other than just stand in front of one creature and "auto attack". Sneaking around, tumbling and using tricks to gain tactical advantage for SA sounds fun but I know a lot of times I'll be stuck doing normal damage anyways. Wielding a spiked chain, getting lots of AoO's, thus lots of tripping and disarming, with altogether more feats for specializing sounds great too. Not to mention with arcane stunt and skill tricks to be able to pull it all together is even better. I just don't know how much of that which sounds great on paper will truly translate into the game itself. Is SA really that hard to get if you're not using tons of feats from the more esoteric sources? Off the top of my head it seems spiked chain can be super useful just with mostly core feats... Also the extra fighter feats give me more leeway into filling in other gaps in my guy. I could actually afford to get things like Force of Personality to change cha bonus for will saves, quick draw if I need to drop my chain and whip out a 1h weapon, etc..

One quick note: First build cannot get arcane stunt AND daring outlaw, so I could only get a few tricks in that one versus the arcane stunts that are pretty much for free.

So many options to choose from, I could use some guidance from experienced players.

Edit: One more quick question. I was planning on using str as my lower stat in first build therefore getting the cha bonus for face skills and allowing me to use "Force of personality" to up my wis check. But would getting a +2 str bonus and letting cha go down to 10 make more sense? It's basically getting +2 damage on all attacks which stacks with the insightful strike, but losing wis saves feat and free bonus points in all cha related skills. Not sure which will help in the long run.

gbprime
2011-02-10, 07:38 PM
Wow, that's a daunting wall of text.

IMO, go Swashrogue with 2 weapons. Reason is simple... if you're a spiked chain specialist and your chain gets taken away or you are in a social situation where you cannot bring it... what can you do? Using two weapons though... you bring a pair of stilettos with you and go to town, pick up any two daggers laying around, etc.

Likewise for treasure. it's easier to find good weapons to use in random treasure than it is to find a specific weapon like a spiked chain. It's a consideration unless your DM custom places loot just for you to find. (Many games you get random loot, sell it, and pay an NPC or PC to make you stuff.)

Curmudgeon
2011-02-10, 08:15 PM
Of those two options, the TWF choice is superior. A Rogue is desperately short on feats, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and Improved Trip are going to preclude many other useful choices. Yet your solution to this problem (FBFs instead of sneak attack) is still coupled with a 3/4 BAB progression, meaning fewer hits and less opportunity to use Power Attack. With STR not being a priority, and without sneak attack to boost damage, your overall combat effectiveness will be mediocre.

Just for your information, there are alternatives which are greatly superior to both of these choices. Generally speaking, playing to the class's strengths is better than trying to adopt a role that doesn't synergize well with class features. Using Tumble to get into a flanking position, or using Hide to deny an opponent their DEX bonus to AC, are both ways to enable sneak attack and demonstrate class features that work well together. There aren't any Rogue features that particularly help with tripping.

A final note: while Swashbuckler provides Weapon Finesse (which works with rapiers), Weapon Finesse doesn't make rapiers light weapons. You will suffer an additional TWF penalty if your off-hand weapon isn't light.

vageta31
2011-02-10, 08:28 PM
Sorry about the wall of text, just wanted to be clear as possible. I agree with you guys though, I think I was just trying to justify playing a spike chain wielder as the class concept just screams badass.

I didn't know about the rapiers though.. I thought that even they weren't "light" for normal characters, one of those 2 classes were able to treat them in that way. So I guess rapier main-hand, shortsword or dagger off-hand for now.

A few more questions if you don't mind. I was considering taking the "shield of blades" ACF at level 5 due to the +2ac ac bonus. However reading further it seems that this only applies during a full attack round which limits it's effectiveness correct? I've seen people recommend improved buckler defense which grants a +1ac at all times due to the offhand light weapon. Is this true?

Now all I have to do is talk my DM into the "penetrating strike" variant(I'm sure he'll go for it if I can RP a way to have someone train me in it at lvl 3 when it becomes active). Since I'm going to really try and be finesse with this guy I'd like to take a few skill tricks like acrobatic backstab and some sort of luck or escape one. And then I'd have the option of an uncanny trickster at some point if I want to give up a little BAB for some extra utility, even if just for fun.

Oh and with TWF would it be worth it at all to keep the STR? Seems I'd get more mileage out of the CHA for all the rest of my class skills and maybe force of personality to get up my weak wis saves.

gbprime
2011-02-10, 09:14 PM
A final note: while Swashbuckler provides Weapon Finesse (which works with rapiers), Weapon Finesse doesn't make rapiers light weapons. You will suffer an additional TWF penalty if your off-hand weapon isn't light.

So don't use two rapiers. one rapier and one shortsword or dagger works just fine. I'm partial to an empty Luckblade myself. :smallamused:

SurlySeraph
2011-02-10, 10:49 PM
I'd go with TWF. A spiked-chain feat Rogue won't be doing enough damage to be really worthwhile, because he'll have neither Sneak Attack or lots of BAB to Power Attack with.

Improved Buckler Defense is OK, but not really worth a feat even if you have a heavily enchanted buckler.
Shield of Blades is slightly better than the Dodge bonus even though you do need to full attack and TWF to use it, since it applies to more than one opponent.
Str = extra damage = always good, but if the campaign is light on combat Cha might be more useful. Your choice.

vageta31
2011-02-11, 12:47 AM
*sigh* If only rogues had more feats, I really can't afford to waste any. TWF, ITWF, GTWF alone takes a huge chunk. Daring outlaw is a must. I'll try to get Craven in for sure if DM will allow it.

Is improved initiative worth it if you have high dex already and plan to use your move silenty/hide skills? A full feat for a +4 initiative.

Combat expertise and/or deadly defense? Higher ac for when in melee and can't flank? Or +1d6 damage on light weapons when fighting defensively? They stack I believe. Question is, is the 1d6 on each attack if you are TWF and get multiple attacks?

Staggering strike sounds good, force of personality to fix my low wis saves, etc...

Not sure if I should do the ones for the better defense assuming I won't always be able to SA. Or focus solely on damage and feats that give me better chances to get SA damage.

Oh and is uncanny dodge worth the 4th level or Rogue? Or better to get Swash earlier.

vageta31
2011-02-11, 12:51 AM
Truthfully I don't know how much combat vs RP there will be. I know there will be combat for sure, and probably more than pure RP.

Will the missing 2 cha really hurt my DC rolls on things like bluff/intent/diplomacy/UMD or can I make them up by just pumping them and losing out on other skills? Somehow I think the extra damage will get more use, even though I really wanted to have high CHA.


I'd go with TWF. A spiked-chain feat Rogue
Str = extra damage = always good, but if the campaign is light on combat Cha might be more useful. Your choice.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-11, 12:51 PM
Is improved initiative worth it if you have high dex already and plan to use your move silenty/hide skills? A full feat for a +4 initiative.
No, Improved Initiative isn't worth it. However, you've still got the problem of switching between ranged and melee combat, which might require the Quick Draw feat. (Think of Quick Draw as an additional "feat tax" for the Two-Weapon Fighting tree.)

In any surprise round, maxed out Spot and/or Listen will give you a good chance of not being surprised. You'll want to be able to sneak attack foes within 30' to take advantage of their flat-footed condition. But that requires a ranged weapon ready to fire, and probably both hands to use it. In the first regular round of combat your high DEX will mean you'll pretty much always go before some of the enemies, and a ranged weapon will let you target foes who haven't acted yet for a full round of sneak attacks. Only a fool would throw away guaranteed sneak attack in both of these rounds to close with an enemy who might end up having superior initiative. But after that your Two-Weapon Fighting plan will require getting melee weapons in both hands. With Quick Draw you could do that at the end of the first regular round of combat, and have a way to take advantage of attacks of opportunity. Without Quick Draw you could draw both weapons while moving with a regular move action, but not with a 5' step if enemies had already closed on you.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-11, 04:42 PM
Truthfully I don't know how much combat vs RP there will be. I know there will be combat for sure, and probably more than pure RP.

Will the missing 2 cha really hurt my DC rolls on things like bluff/intent/diplomacy/UMD or can I make them up by just pumping them and losing out on other skills? Somehow I think the extra damage will get more use, even though I really wanted to have high CHA.

Losing 2 Cha is just a -1. It's easy to make up for if you're not using it constantly.

vageta31
2011-02-12, 02:58 AM
Well I officially turned in my character to the DM today and our first night will start next Friday. I went with the Rogue/Swashbuckler idea but we're all starting out at level 1 so none of that will matter for now. I went with TWF and decided on Point Blank Shot. I need to survive and do some damage in any way I can so that seemed the best bet.

Which brings up a question. With TWF does that mean I could throw 2 daggers as a full attack? And if so do I still take the -2 penalty for each hand? I'm trying to decide whether or not to take the shortbow and arrows for single accurate shots, or take a few daggers I could throw that weight less.

Bear with me as I try to understand the rules here. I read up and it says daggers have ranged increment of 10ft, which means at 30ft to still allow a sneak attack I'd take a -4 penalty, which means -6 overall penalty. Then I get the +3 bonus for dex, +1 for point blank shot leaving me with an overall -2/-2 for both? So at 30ft I could theoretically make 2 attacks at a -2 modifier, and with my +2 str and point blank shot my damage would be +1d4+3/+1d4+3. Is this correct?

A shortbow at 30ft would have no negative penalty and get a +3 to hit from dex, and another +1 from point blank shot. Then it would do 1d6+1 from point blank shot since my +2 str modifering doesn't count.

So my options are higher damage possibility with the thrown daggers with a -5 chance to hit compared to shortbow. If I was at say 20ft it'd make the daggers have no penalty or bonus to hit. And if I was at 10ft I should have just gone for the single attack.

I kind of liked the idea of the throwing daggers to take advantage of the str bonus but sounds like they'd be really difficult to hit a target with any sort of decent ac. Are there any other benefits of the daggers over the bow, besides maybe the lesser weight and utility since I could also melee with the dagger if I got disarmed? The crossbow and arrows add weight and I don't want to ever be pushing the "medium load" threshold.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-12, 03:59 AM
With TWF does that mean I could throw 2 daggers as a full attack? And if so do I still take the -2 penalty for each hand? I'm trying to decide whether or not to take the shortbow and arrows for single accurate shots, or take a few daggers I could throw that weight less.
You'll suffer both of the following penalties:

-2 with Two-Weapon Fighting
-2 for each 10' range increment
Throwing daggers will always be problematic (except if you take Far Shot, and then only at 10' distance). At 5' distance you'll provoke an attack of opportunity. At 10' distance you'll still provoke an attack of opportunity if the enemy has reach, and will incur your first -2 range penalty. (The penalty kicks in at the range distance, not just past that distance.) At 20' distance you'll be at -4 for range, and at the 30' maximum for sneak attack your range penalty will be -6. So at maximum sneak attack distance you'll be at -8/-8. With a shortbow at that distance you'll get one shot at +0, or (with Rapid Shot) two shots at -2/-2.

vageta31
2011-02-12, 04:33 AM
Thanks for clearing that up, I had gotten the range distance wrong. I was also just reading the PHB and realized that darts are better anyways. Same damage, twice the range and half the weight. Not to mention super cheap. I think I'll bring a few of these on my first night just to see how they can work out in the right situation. At 20` I won't get any AoO's, can get SA damage and only suffer the -2/-2 but get that damage bonus.

Oh and the PHB says that for TWP purposes you treat darts as light weapons. Which seems to stack with the swashbuckler insightful strike as it says "light weapons" with no mention of melee or ranged. So at level 5ish I "could" theoretically have a really good chance to take advantage in the right situation. If I can get a surprise attack within 20`, I could quick draw 2 darts and take only a small penalty to hit, and have chance for really good damage. 1d4+5/1d4+5(str bonus(2), insightful strike(2), point black shot(1)) then my SA for each one.

Can't wait for friday.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-12, 06:10 AM
At 20` I won't get any AoO's, can get SA damage and only suffer the -2/-2 but get that damage bonus.
Because darts have a 20' range increment you'll be at -4/-4. Only at 15' or closer will you be at -2/-2.

vageta31
2011-02-12, 02:57 PM
I had factored that in, just was saying -2/-2 to hit after all bonuses and negatives were accounted for.

-4/-4 at range, -2/-2 for TWF, +3/+3 dex bonus, +1/+1 point blank shot comes out to -2/-2 and if they're flat footed they won't get dex bonus the -2 shouldn't make it all that hard to hit. At any rate I'm gonna bring a few along and see situationally how they work out compared to shortbow. The insightful strike and str damage bonus might make it worth the small penalty to hit.