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Lord_Gareth
2011-02-10, 06:53 PM
We're all aware of the fact that archers got the shaft in 3.5, so my question to the Playground is this; what should archers get in order to remain competitive? What changes to feats and/or class features might benefit them? What kind of abilities might an archery PrC hand out that makes it worth taking? Any kind of archer you can conceive of is welcome, though I'd appreciate it if you'd denote it (such as "sniper" or "archery rogue" or "machine gun").

arguskos
2011-02-10, 06:58 PM
We're all aware of the fact that archers got the shaft in 3.5, so my question to the Playground is this; what should archers get in order to remain competitive? What changes to feats and/or class features might benefit them? What kind of abilities might an archery PrC hand out that makes it worth taking? Any kind of archer you can conceive of is welcome, though I'd appreciate it if you'd denote it (such as "sniper" or "archery rogue" or "machine gun").
Three things seem to make sense to me:

1. Condense all the various archery feats into like three. Currently, there's something like 8 feats for archers, all of which are pretty much required to do anything relevant. Not bonuses, but REQUIRED! Compare to two-handing, where it's just one or two feats. TWF and Sword and Board suffer from this issue as well, but less so in some ways. Fix them while you're there.

2. Give archery a consistent source of bonus damage. They need something to help rack up the kills. THF has Str and Power Attack. TWF has Sneak Attack and derivatives. Sword and Board has... nothing. :smallfrown: Archery has... nothing. :smallfrown: Please, won't you think of the S&Ber's and the Archers?

3. Easier access to the Champions of Ruin archery spells, god dammit! They seriously help make archers competitive, at least snipers. In my experience, snipers are terrifyingly scary with those spells, as they really should be. This one's kinda my soapbox on this topic though, so I guess you can disregard it if you'd like.

Saint GoH
2011-02-10, 07:05 PM
I agree with arguskos, the largest problem as far as I am concerned is the sheer number of feats required to even compare to TWF or THF (you need point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot, shot on teh run, greater manyshot for starters) just to even be useful.

Also, the lack of bonus damage is really painful. A dragon mag and another feat (MOAR FEATS????) kind of cleared this up by allowing dexterity to damage, but there still is no (iirc) Power Attack for ranged combat. THF quickly outstrips Archery simply through the force multipliers it can get.

arguskos
2011-02-10, 07:06 PM
Also, the lack of bonus damage is really painful. A dragon mag and another feat (MOAR FEATS????) kind of cleared this up by allowing dexterity to damage, but there still is no (iirc) Power Attack for ranged combat. THF quickly outstrips Archery simply through the force multipliers it can get.
Actually, there is, but it's on an item from a very obscure source. :smallsigh:

The Animated Series Handbook presented Hank's Force Bow (also accessible online on the WotC site), which permits Power Shots, which are PA for the bow's attacks.

Saph
2011-02-10, 07:11 PM
We're all aware of the fact that archers got the shaft in 3.5

What? No we don't. Archers work just fine in 3.5, assuming you play them competently. They do less damage than a melee character, but they have two big advantages:

1) not needing to move to full attack
2) not needing to stand in melee range of big horrible monsters.

The Ranger in our Seven Kingdoms campaign was by the end destroying entire CR-appropriate encounters single-handedly, in some cases before they could even get on the battle mat.

gbprime
2011-02-10, 07:18 PM
Best I've managed to do with an archer is a Mystic Ranger with arcane spells, add Arcane Strike, Boomerang Daze, and an Aptitude weapon on a bow. By the time you get Manyshot, you can hit every enemy in range for strengthbow+4d4 and force a DC 10+dmg fort save or Daze them.

But that's a Gish, not an archer per se.

Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) gets power attack with a bow, but it's a hard PrC to qualify for.

Zaq
2011-02-10, 07:19 PM
Actually, there is, but it's on an item from a very obscure source. :smallsigh:

The Animated Series Handbook presented Hank's Force Bow (also accessible online on the WotC site), which permits Power Shots, which are PA for the bow's attacks.

While that is true, any build that capital-R Requires such a ridiculously specific item has a few kinks to work out.

Anyway, I'd like to see archers with a few more nondamaging effects in their toolboxes. You know, like the Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder feats from CWar, only not sucky. While I don't believe that called shots as a general rule belong in 3.5, I'd be happy to see maybe some class features (or feats, if you prefer, but archers can practically already go pure Fighter and not have enough feats) that give you specific called shots (a leg shot for a trip or speed penalty, for instance), just so they have something to do other than full attack. Even when they work and can get the damage they desire, an archer's turn tends to be nothing more than a full attack, and that's criminally boring. At least a charger gets to consider positioning.

arguskos
2011-02-10, 07:27 PM
While that is true, any build that capital-R Requires such a ridiculously specific item has a few kinks to work out.
Oh, absolutely! I agree entirely. I was just letting the fellow know about the Energy Bow, just for the sake of sharing knowledge and whatnot.

Endarire
2011-02-10, 07:33 PM
In 2007, I played a Ranger archer at level 16, tricked out with all the appropriate Ranger archer goodies and PrCs.

He attacked often. He even had Peerless Archer and its "Power Attack with Bows" ability.

We faced something with DR 20ish. He could either reliably hit and deal (almost) no damage, or whiff constantly for the hope of hurting it. At the time, I didn't know about Force Bows.

The point of the character was to be a Ranger, not a Cleric Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0), though a Cleric Archer would've helped more.

gbprime
2011-02-10, 07:40 PM
We faced something with DR 20ish. He could either reliably hit and deal (almost) no damage, or whiff constantly for the hope of hurting it. At the time, I didn't know about Force Bows.

Order of the Bow Initiate is the attempted solution for that. Fire once with many bonus dice. Trouble is, you get no love for firing more than once, so it's still lackluster.

grarrrg
2011-02-10, 07:47 PM
(bows suck > help)

It's Pathfinder, but Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) is basically Power Attack for Archers

Ravens_cry
2011-02-10, 07:58 PM
It's Pathfinder, but Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) is basically Power Attack for Archers
With all the nerf of Pathfinder Power Attack. Better then nothing though. Still, with more feats by default and bonus feats you don't need to qualify for in the case of Rangers or a steady source of bonus damage and DR reduction, like Paladin archers, a Pathfinder archer can be quite vicious.

Gnaeus
2011-02-10, 08:00 PM
We're all aware of the fact that archers got the shaft in 3.5, so my question to the Playground is this; what should archers get in order to remain competitive? What changes to feats and/or class features might benefit them? What kind of abilities might an archery PrC hand out that makes it worth taking? Any kind of archer you can conceive of is welcome, though I'd appreciate it if you'd denote it (such as "sniper" or "archery rogue" or "machine gun").

1. Nerf Wind Wall. When a level 3 spell utterly defeats your class, you can stop playing after about level 12.

2. An archer, with his multiple attacks for less damage, is particularly vulnerable to unbeatable DR.
Suggested rule fix: Like Bard of Laketown, allow missile attacks made at a certain penalty to hit (maybe -1/2 enemy's CR) to ignore enemy DR.

3. I think some of these exist already, but more alchemical or magical arrows that only require touch attacks. Melee can already make touch attacks against high AC enemies (Trips, Grapples). Archers should be able to act similarly.

VirOath
2011-02-10, 08:07 PM
Best I've managed to do with an archer is a Mystic Ranger with arcane spells, add Arcane Strike, Boomerang Daze, and an Aptitude weapon on a bow. By the time you get Manyshot, you can hit every enemy in range for strengthbow+4d4 and force a DC 10+dmg fort save or Daze them.

But that's a Gish, not an archer per se.

Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) gets power attack with a bow, but it's a hard PrC to qualify for.

Isn't Arcane Strike not allowed to be used for ranged weapons? It states Melee Weapons, Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons only, so is the Aptitude bonus strong enough to bridge that gap as well?

Though, if so, I'd think you'd need it twice. Though if it does work, then a Duskblade would be a good base for a machine gun archer since the bonus lasts for the full round, and the damage should stack (in the same way that bonus damage on a bow from Bane and bonus damage on the arrow from Bane stacks)

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-10, 08:08 PM
Knowledge Devotion... helps anyone hit & damage.

Change up Order of the Bow Initiate to have their bonus damage work on multiple shots instead of just the first shot.

There's a Fighter Variant in one of the Dragon Magazines that added some really neat Ranged Attack options... I'd have to dig through my condensed list again to find it. I remember that one of them gave Dex-bonus to damage for all shots, stacks with Str-bonus on Compound Bows or thrown weapons.

Saph
2011-02-10, 08:33 PM
Archers actually have a much easier time than melee characters at beating DR, since they can carry around a golf bag of arrows made out of every material under the sun. Melee characters either have to carry different weapons made out of every major material and enchant them separately (which is really expensive) or spring for something like Transmuting.

If that's too much trouble, an archer can simply get the Force enchantment on their weapon and ignore all DR, full stop.

Velaryon
2011-02-10, 08:53 PM
If I were designing a comprehensive fix for archery and ranged combat in general, I would start by eliminating the feat Point Blank Shot. When a feat that is strictly worse than Weapon Focus is required for every single archery feat in the entire system, something is wrong. When you consider that most archers will probably be farther than 30 feet anyway (unless they're trying to sneak attack with a bow), then the feat becomes even worse. Make Precise Shot the prerequisite feat for all the other archery stuff and move on.

While I'm at it, most of the prerequisites for Shot on the Run should be removed as well. It makes no sense for the feat to require Dodge and Mobility. It's pretty clear the designers just copy/pasted the requirements from Spring Attack and then added PBS on top of that, but if you're playing an archer then you will never use those feats except to qualify for Shot on the Run. That further bones an already feat-strapped character archetype, and for that reason I never bother taking this feat even for a character that should have it because the prerequisites are too harsh.

There needs to be something for archers akin to Power Attack. Peerless Archers get that Power Shot ability, but that's a single fairly obscure prestige class from a setting-specific 3.0 book. It also has some awful prerequisites in the form of 10 skill points poured down the drain for a Craft skill that you will never use, which is even more brutal when you consider that Fighters (who already get the shaft on skill points) are the ones most likely to qualify for the class since it requires four feats. Bottom line, Peerless Archer is not an acceptable way to fix archers, especially since the rest of the class pretty much sucks.

I know it is possible to make a good archer, but the best way I know of involves some mix of Peerless Archer, Cragtop Archer, and Deepwood Sniper, and that absolutely should not be a requirement to competently play something as archetypal as an archer. Especially since two of those classes are 3.0 classes that never received an update.


1. Nerf Wind Wall. When a level 3 spell utterly defeats your class, you can stop playing after about level 12.

Even before that, Protection from Arrows pretty much shuts down anybody with a nonmagical bow. DR/magic is normally useless, but at level 3 not everyone will have the ability to bypass it yet.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-10, 09:07 PM
Archers actually have a much easier time than melee characters at beating DR, since they can carry around a golf bag of arrows made out of every material under the sun. Melee characters either have to carry different weapons made out of every major material and enchant them separately (which is really expensive) or spring for something like Transmuting.

If that's too much trouble, an archer can simply get the Force enchantment on their weapon and ignore all DR, full stop.

Why should archers have to pay gold to penetrate specific damage reductions when melee characters can simply deal so much damage as to make DR irrelevant?

gbprime
2011-02-10, 09:12 PM
Isn't Arcane Strike not allowed to be used for ranged weapons? It states Melee Weapons, Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons only, so is the Aptitude bonus strong enough to bridge that gap as well?

No, that was Aptitude Weapon plus a lenient DM. The party had a meat-grinder of a cleric and a rogue who loved to turn into a hydra and flank things, so allowing the archer to daze people on a DC 25-30 save per shot wasn't all that obscene. :smalleek:

Saint GoH
2011-02-10, 09:23 PM
Knowledge Devotion... helps anyone hit & damage.

Change up Order of the Bow Initiate to have their bonus damage work on multiple shots instead of just the first shot.

There's a Fighter Variant in one of the Dragon Magazines that added some really neat Ranged Attack options... I'd have to dig through my condensed list again to find it. I remember that one of them gave Dex-bonus to damage for all shots, stacks with Str-bonus on Compound Bows or thrown weapons.

Dragon Mag 310 has Targeteer, a fighter ACF that allows your Dex to damage, and there is a feat that allows Half-Dex to damage crossbows only from one of the Completes (C.Adv?).

But still, with things like charges, Valourous Weps, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and PA melee vastly outstrips Archery. SOme of those similar things are do-able with an archer but are obscure (force bow) or difficult to acquire.

Psyren
2011-02-10, 09:25 PM
archers got the shaft

I see what you did there.

Agreed with argus on the feat taxation issue.

MeeposFire
2011-02-10, 09:35 PM
Force bows help archers with DR. One enchantment allows you to ignore DR and so few things have force resistance/immunity that it is a safe option.

You can actually find nasty archer builds though just like all non-spellcasting it gets the shaft fairly easily by even low level spells.

A well made ranger/scout build can be amazing especially if you get favored enemy evil from a friendly prc. You will have a lot of attacks if you purchase a splitting force bow and they will be fairly damaging to evil targets.

Saph
2011-02-10, 09:53 PM
Why should archers have to pay gold to penetrate specific damage reductions when melee characters can simply deal so much damage as to make DR irrelevant?

100 gp for 50 silver arrows. 5 gp for 50 cold iron arrows. Yeah, that's going to bankrupt me, all right. Maybe once we get up to adamantine I might actually notice, assuming I haven't got a force bow by then.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-10, 10:17 PM
I agree with Saph in that archers are not unplayable even in a relatively high optimization environment. That said, we can help them out a bit. Maybe fold PBS and Precise Shot together, for starters. Also it shouldn't be such a pain to deal with mighty composite bows. I mean I understand the realism of a bow with a given draw strength, but it shouldn't really need to be set in stone in a world where magic is commonplace, people can fight with gyrspikes without killing themselves, and other such extraordinary things are possible.

Valameer
2011-02-10, 10:39 PM
Didn't magic arrow bonuses stack with magic bow bonuses back in 3.0? Was that really so broken that it needed a fix?

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-10, 10:41 PM
They still kind of do, in that you could have a +5 bow, and then use +1 flaming arrows, and treat the result as a +5 flaming arrow.

Endarire
2011-02-10, 10:50 PM
Were I designing the system, I'd do this or something similar:

-All martial strikes that don't require charging can be used with projectile and thrown weapons.

-There's no penalty for firing into melee. Really.

-Your allies surrounding your target don't hamper your chance to hit. Really.

-Power Attack is a system-level option. Anyone can do it with any weapon. You always get at least +2 damage per -1 accuracy (min 1, max of your BAB).

-Full attacking is a standard action for anyone. Charging is a standard action for anyone.

-Reduce the number of archery feats. Increase the scalability of each feat.

-Let all creatures add their STR bonus to ranged attack damage by default. No longer must I spend ridiculous amounts of money on a bow to get what melee dudes and sling users get already.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-10, 11:02 PM
Bone Bows are Exotic, but adjust to your Str bonus. A Splitting Force Bone Bow will do you fine, especially if you already have lots of attacks. Which most good archers do.

Archery with a Swiftblade or Factotum can be fun, since you can use the extra standard actions for Greater Manyshot in addition to a full attack, but extra standard actions are yeah.

Scout or Rogue archers can do fine on bonus damage.

There are some good ToB archer builds that mostly kick in at high level, usually using Time Stands Still and the Mongoose maneuvers for more attacks and Giant's Stance for some extra damage.

Raptorans with Foot Bows get 1.5xStr to damage, which is solid.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-11, 01:31 AM
What, precisely, does the splitting enhancement do for a weapon?

Now, a refinement on my original question: what should an archery PrC provide a character that feats do not? Where do we draw the line on that particular aspect of balance? What archery feats are most in need of fixing or condensing?

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 01:33 AM
What, precisely, does the splitting enhancement do for a weapon?

Now, a refinement on my original question: what should an archery PrC provide a character that feats do not? Where do we draw the line on that particular aspect of balance? What archery feats are most in need of fixing or condensing?

Every arrow you shoot from the bow divides into two each with their own attack roll. Effectively it doubles your attacks in a round.

CigarPete
2011-02-11, 11:41 AM
What books are the splitting and force bow enchantments in?

Had a bow ranger/scout in my current campaign (lvl12-14), and he was pretty competitive damage wise with the Shock Trooper Charge Leap Attack Barbarian/Druid, at least until the B/D got pounce and was promptly eviscerated by a Minotaur. :smallbiggrin: Used Skirmish and Manyshot pretty extensively, at least against crittable opponents.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 12:18 PM
Rangers are pretty good archers with the spells from Champions of Ruin and Spell Compendium. I really don't see why you'd need to boost archery. You are safer when you are away from the target! That alone is good enough, IMHO.

Cogidubnus
2011-02-11, 12:19 PM
Woodland Archer Feat. It allows you to add +4 to every attack roll you make that turn after each miss. It's generally taken that it stacks.

Then make them a martial initiate and take some of the disciplines linked on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152550&highlight=archery+resource). My favourite is Thunder Bolt discipline, 6th level stance "Fell the Ettin". Combine with a Splitting bow for 4x the usual number of arrows. If you then use the 8th level Storm of Arrows Strike to fire a number of arrows equal to your Dex modifier, well, you've just fired about 40 arrows if you're a level 20 character.

Gestalt in an Arrow Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9520004&postcount=337) and you'll slaughter them. Built a character based off this idea, but ended up scrapping the Fell the Ettin stance because I'd have overshadowed the entire party in combat. I was dealing more damage than an over-abused Shock Trooper, and that at a range of about 250 feet, easily. And the closer you got, the more dangerous I got. Here's the sheet, if you're interested. (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=9463)

But you're probably going to be relying on homebrew to give you your power.

Ed: Yeah, he was using a Force bow too, so DR = no no. And Magebane (love it) affects virtually everyone and everything at Epic levels.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-11, 12:21 PM
Splitting is from Champions of Ruin, along with some pretty sweet archery spells for Rangers. Force is from the Magic Item Compendium.


Now, a refinement on my original question: what should an archery PrC provide a character that feats do not? Where do we draw the line on that particular aspect of balance? What archery feats are most in need of fixing or condensing?

Better sources of bonus damage, certainly, such as Sneak Attack and the Peerless Archer's Power Shot. I'd like more archery PrCs that give archers more options, since the feats available for that purpose like Ranged Sunder and Ranged Grapple are seriously lackluster.

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are speed bumps that need to be condensed, as said above; and I'd say regular Manyshot is pretty useless unless you take Greater Manyshot as well, though Greater Manyshot is good enough for some builds that it might be worth leaving that speed bump in.

A lot of archery's biggest problems are structural: it's hard to do enough damage (without tons of attacks, lots of Sneak Attack, etc), there are things like Wind Wall that can just shut it down (though Force Bow circumvents many of them), and it doesn't easily allow for tripping, ToB strikes, attacks of opportunity, and other nice things that melee gets.

randomhero00
2011-02-11, 12:24 PM
Look at what PF did. They pretty much took care of archers. (make sure to look at alt class features in APG too). Haven't played one (though I'm tempted now) but IIRC they have something similar like PA and condensed a lot of feats. An alt class feature I believe lets you apply half dex or full dex (I forget) to damage as well.

edit: archers and crossbowers, they made crossbows respectable with the alt class features.

There's even a sniper alt class IIRC.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-11, 09:20 PM
Bump for additional input, if I can get it.

Doug Lampert
2011-02-12, 12:07 AM
I agree with Saph in that archers are not unplayable even in a relatively high optimization environment. That said, we can help them out a bit. Maybe fold PBS and Precise Shot together, for starters. Also it shouldn't be such a pain to deal with mighty composite bows. I mean I understand the realism of a bow with a given draw strength, but it shouldn't really need to be set in stone in a world where magic is commonplace, people can fight with gyrspikes without killing themselves, and other such extraordinary things are possible.

Agreed.

Based on the carrying capacity table, for strengths of 10 or more, +5 strength is x2 lift. A guy with strength 10 and another with strength 25 (8 times as strong and superhuman) both use IDENTICAL greatswords with identical effect.

Historically swords were custom made one off jobs. Heirlooms might be passed down, but the odds were the smith made your greatsword for YOU.

Does anyone seriously think a superhero with the ability to walk arround ALL DAY carrying 800 pounds uses the same greatsword as the 98 lb weakling? And this is also the same sword for a 4'1" dwarf and for a 7'8" bugbear!

Balance, length, weight, strength, all identical regardless of the wielder. Not because it's even slightly realistic, but because that's SIMPLER and this is a GAME.

Yet they won't do the same thing for bows.

Heck: Put a +1 enhancement on the armor (and +1 is CHEAPER than the nonmagical part of plate), and the bugbear and dwarf can use the same armor, it magically resizes! Heck, a giant and the dwarf can wear the same armor, or bracers, or boots, they all magically resize, because it's MAGIC.

Bows? Nope, they don't adjust at all. Stupid.

Oh, and BtW, the heaviest draw bows ever know are the so called Welsh Longbow, draw weights VASTLY higher than modern composite compound bows. So much higher that the values claimed in historical sources were almost universally disbelieved as utterly impossible to use till ACTUAL BOWS were recovered intact from the wreck of the Mary Rose.

Those bows were simple self bows. You don't need to be composite to have a heavy draw and use the archer's strength.

DougL

Hawriel
2011-02-12, 12:26 AM
In Pathfinder a paladin's smite is not limited to melee. Why not go for a paladin archer.

stainboy
2011-02-12, 01:42 AM
A Blink Sneak Attack archer is a functional character in 3.5. Can't comment on Pathfinder. Anyway, archery and especially throwing are saddled with a bunch of penalties in the name of simulationism, which is silly in light of how unrealistic the rest of combat is.


-A composite bow should just let you add your full Strength bonus to ranged damage. No specific strength bonus for each bow to keep archers from interacting correctly with buffs.

-A repeating crossbow should be a Simple weapon. Crossbows shouldn't be viable until level 6 and then become terrible because the weapon rules writers and the iterative attacks writers didn't talk to each other. (Crossbows still wouldn't render regular bows useless because every high-Strength character wants a composite bow, and a dedicated crossbow archer still eventually has to take a full-round action to reload.)

-Range increments. In 3.5 a charging barbarian has an 80' range with his melee attack and a 50' range with a throwing axe. This is dumb. The first range increment should kick in after 60'. So a javelin is in the first range increment out to 90', then the second out to 120', and so on. Because of the way movement and especially Charge works, D&D doesn't track precise positions for moving creatures in about a 60' area. In real life, if someone runs at you, and you have a bow, you can shoot at them before they reach you, right? That doesn't work in D&D because the whole charge happens instantly.

-Firing into melee. Cut this rule. It's redundant and unnecessarily punitive to apply a -4 penalty for firing into melee and then apply "soft cover" for a +4 bonus to AC. You can't seriously tell me an archer can't hit a hill giant because there's a halfling on the far side of it. So no firing into melee penalty, and Precise Shot lets you ignore soft cover.

-Cut the Returning special property. Any magic thrown weapon enchanted as a weapon (not ammunition, so not shurikens) reappears instantly in the thrower's hand. A javelin ranger shouldn't have to buy 4-6 javelins at full magic weapon price. The effect is a creation effect, not a teleportation effect, so you can still throw a weapon in the anti-teleportation fields that are nearly ubiquitous at high levels. (Maybe this last bit isn't super important, but I run a lot of games in Sigil.)

-Quick Draw should not be required to make a full attack with thrown weapons. You don't need a special feat to full attack with a longbow.

-Cut Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite for anything. Point Blank Shot is only really useful for a sneak attacker or a ranged touch caster. Nobody else can afford to be within 30' of an enemy with a bow in hand, because they're a single move away from being in melee without a weapon. If you must have archery as a feat chain, make Precise Shot the head of the tree.

true_shinken
2011-02-12, 08:42 AM
A Blink Sneak Attack archer is a functional character in 3.5. Can't comment on Pathfinder. Anyway, archery and especially throwing are saddled with a bunch of penalties in the name of simulationism, which is silly in light of how unrealistic the rest of combat is.
I disagree. I think ranged fighting is saddled with penalties because otherwise melee would always be your last option.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-12, 09:33 AM
I agree that point blank shot is pointless, hell there are races that for 1 LA can move more per turn than the range for the pointless bonus. In DDO, all archers take point blank because they have to and they will just open fire at teh furthest distance they can because they are too squishy for melee generally, and they can't outdamage anything other than a wizard with a single knife.

Point blank shot if a waste of a feat period. No sane archer is going to be that close.

lesser_minion
2011-02-12, 09:56 AM
1. Nerf Wind Wall. When a level 3 spell utterly defeats your class, you can stop playing after about level 12.

Wind Wall does not 'utterly defeat' archery:

You can fire arrows into the air, over a wind wall or other obstruction. Not so useful in a dungeon, but archery doesn't do well in confined spaces anyway.
The wind wall must be entirely vertical by RAW -- if an archer is above or below you, then you can't get the full benefit of the spell.
Arrows that can cast dispel magic on the wall, or that ignore it entirely, are both at least available.
Wind walls are rare anyway -- many wizards can't cast the spell (Shadow Evocation: Wind Wall doesn't actually protect you from missile weapons), and sorcerers and beguilers tend to have better choices.


It's a nasty spell, and it might be better as a level 4 or level 5 spell, but it's not even remotely insurmountable.

Gnaeus
2011-02-12, 10:47 AM
Wind Wall does not 'utterly defeat' archery:

[list=1] You can fire arrows into the air, over a wind wall or other obstruction. Not so useful in a dungeon, but archery doesn't do well in confined spaces anyway.

1. Even a minimum level wind wall is 25 feet high. Most archers can't fire an arrow that goes straight out, then falls vertically for the last 25 feat. Even if they could, the wind wall itself is invisible, so it is pretty difficult to aim your arrow to avoid it.


The wind wall must be entirely vertical by RAW -- if an archer is above or below you, then you can't get the full benefit of the spell.

True. It doesn't stop the archer directly above or below you. I will amend my statement to "utterly defeats archers 95% of the time.


Arrows that can cast dispel magic on the wall, or that ignore it entirely, are both at least available.

An arcane archer could AOE dispell one with an arrow. Too bad AA is otherwise unimpressive. Which arrow casts dispel magic on the wall?


Wind walls are rare anyway -- many wizards can't cast the spell (Shadow Evocation: Wind Wall doesn't actually protect you from missile weapons), and sorcerers and beguilers tend to have better choices.


Not for a utility scroll. Its a classic.

stainboy
2011-02-12, 11:11 AM
I disagree. I think ranged fighting is saddled with penalties because otherwise melee would always be your last option.

I agree that ranged combat can't eclipse melee, but I think this would still leave melee with huge advantages over archery. Melee has SAD Strength, two-handed weapons, AoOs, Power Attack, flanking for sneak attack, tripping, and tons more feat support.

true_shinken
2011-02-12, 11:14 AM
I agree that ranged combat can't eclipse melee, but I think this would still leave melee with huge advantages over archery. Melee has SAD Strength, two-handed weapons, AoOs, Power Attack, flanking for sneak attack, tripping, and tons more feat support.

And an archer takes no damage, because he is not close enough for you to kill him. Still looks good enough for me Doing more damage vs staying alive? I know which one I'd pick.

lesser_minion
2011-02-12, 12:22 PM
1. Even a minimum level wind wall is 25 feet high. Most archers can't fire an arrow that goes straight out, then falls vertically for the last 25 feat. Even if they could, the wind wall itself is invisible, so it is pretty difficult to aim your arrow to avoid it.

Once you've had an arrow miss because of a wind wall, you know there's a wind wall. Also, if you're there with casters, then you should know that there's a wind wall there. Spellcraft is quite good for that.

Sure, that doesn't help you with knowing where the wind wall is, but you can still use guesswork and trial and error to figure out where to aim your arrow.


True. It doesn't stop the archer directly above or below you. I will amend my statement to "utterly defeats archers 95% of the time.


Combine it with the ability to make arrows arc, and this can prove pretty useful.

Also note that an archer who cannot damage you because you're hiding behind a wall is not "utterly defeated" -- making an enemy waste a standard action on defence and limit their own movement is actually a fair contribution to a fight. Even on her own, the archer should be able to find a location where you can't hurt her either and simply wait you out.

Or she could just chuck things at you -- thrown weapons and slings benefit from most of the archery feats, but aren't negated by a wind wall.


An arcane archer could AOE dispell one with an arrow. Too bad AA is otherwise unimpressive. Which arrow casts dispel magic on the wall?

Suppression property from XPH; Dispelling property from MIC. The Arcane Archer has at least two options for ignoring a wind wall, and I'm pretty sure arrows fired from a force bow don't interact as arrows with a wind wall.


Not for a utility scroll. Its a classic.

I'll give you that.

Overall, it's 50/50 at best, and there are plenty of ways to inflict the same kind of problem on melee -- in addition to its other effects, Grease makes charging impossible, for example. And Wall of Force blocks both melee and ranged.

And I'm pretty sure that it's easier for an archer to implement the "walk away and lol at opponent" tactic than it is for a melee character.

stainboy
2011-02-12, 01:08 PM
And an archer takes no damage, because he is not close enough for you to kill him. Still looks good enough for me Doing more damage vs staying alive? I know which one I'd pick.

Spellcaster?

Zaq
2011-02-12, 04:48 PM
And an archer takes no damage, because he is not close enough for you to kill him. Still looks good enough for me Doing more damage vs staying alive? I know which one I'd pick.

In a vacuum, I agree with you. In the 3.5 paradigm I'm familiar with, though, I find that that doesn't really work. Which is kind of a shame, of course, but still something that we should at least acknowledge.

Besides, I have yet to see a party where an archer can really function at long range. Even without taking dungeon crawls into account, it's difficult to get sufficiently spread out to actually stay out of charge range. YMMV.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-12, 04:57 PM
Also, encounters rarely start at long ranges, since it's no fun for the melee guys, and Spot is very unforgiving in any case.

I've run a few longer range encounters where everyone had to pull out their bows, and the players started to lose interest very quickly. A lot of people like to position themselves and flank and stuff. Obviously this is a playstyle thing though.

nedz
2011-02-12, 05:10 PM
They still kind of do, in that you could have a +5 bow, and then use +1 flaming arrows, and treat the result as a +5 flaming arrow.
Actually the trick is to do this the other way around, and get your friendly spellcaster to Greater Magic Weapon up some 50 +5 arrows which you can share around.

I always had the feeling that archery was made less effective than melle because its less heroic; well it carries less risk obviously.

Saph
2011-02-12, 05:18 PM
Also, encounters rarely start at long ranges, since it's no fun for the melee guys, and Spot is very unforgiving in any case.

It's true that "classic" D&D encounters tend to be short range, but there's nothing actually making you play them that way. If you're fighting outdoors, mounted archers can kill pretty much any melee monster by kiting it.

A DM recently set our Pathfinder group a mission to kill an ooze-type creature in an outdoor environment. It was built up as a terrifying monster that ate everything in its path. We spotted it from about 300 feet away. The ooze had a move of 20 feet. Four rounds of full attacks later, it was dead before ever having gotten into melee range.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-12, 05:27 PM
Yes, and that doesn't sound terribly fun to me. See the second part of my post up there.

Probably more realistic that way though.

Saph
2011-02-12, 05:34 PM
Yeah, I know. Thing is, it's quite hard to see how creatures with minimal intelligence and a slow move rate are supposed to be a challenge unless you're fighting at very close quarters. Oozes and other equipment-eating monsters are pretty much exactly the type of creature you don't want to fight against in melee.

Gnaeus
2011-02-12, 06:49 PM
Combine it with the ability to make arrows arc, and this can prove pretty useful.

Are you citing a rule for a feat or something? Or just normal arc for an arrow. Because normal arc from an arrow isn't going to travel vertically the last 30 feet.


Also note that an archer who cannot damage you because you're hiding behind a wall is not "utterly defeated" -- making an enemy waste a standard action on defence and limit their own movement is actually a fair contribution to a fight. Even on her own, the archer should be able to find a location where you can't hurt her either and simply wait you out.

Waiting out enemy casters is a good way to die. They kill the rest of your party and then summon something to play melee the archer.


Or she could just chuck things at you -- thrown weapons and slings benefit from most of the archery feats, but aren't negated by a wind wall.

OK. Thats true. If the archer carries a backup sling, he only has a 30% miss chance to go along with the loss of most of his damage.




Suppression property from XPH; Dispelling property from MIC.

Dispelling doesn't work. You have to strike a creature or object, and a wind wall is neither. Further, the arrow doesn't strike the wind wall, it is deflected by a blast of air from the wind wall. I don't own XPH. If it has different language from Dispelling it might work.



The Arcane Archer has at least two options for ignoring a wind wall,

Sure. But they are a pretty lame class overall. I wouldn't take AA just to defeat Wind Wall. Maybe in Pathfinder, where the class isn't such a waste.


and I'm pretty sure arrows fired from a force bow don't interact as arrows with a wind wall.

Really? Is a wind wall damage reduction, or is it incorporeal? Because that weapon description doesn't say anything about being deflected by blasts of wind. RAW, I would say it does nothing. RAI you would have a shot with some DMs.


Overall, it's 50/50 at best, and there are plenty of ways to inflict the same kind of problem on melee -- in addition to its other effects, Grease makes charging impossible, for example. And Wall of Force blocks both melee and ranged.


Yeah, but wall of force blocks me from obliterating YOU. Wind wall doesn't. Grease stops charges, but it doesn't negate most melee in the same way. Even a charger can still walk up and beat on you. It is a problem for Frenzied Berserkers, but not melee overall.

lesser_minion
2011-02-12, 08:47 PM
Are you citing a rule for a feat or something? Or just normal arc for an arrow. Because normal arc from an arrow isn't going to travel vertically the last 30 feet.

No, but I can see plenty of ways that a flying archer can set up a shot that doesn't have to pass through the wind wall or break the laws of physics.


Dispelling doesn't work. You have to strike a creature or object, and a wind wall is neither.

Actually, it's an object. There is no reason in the rules for it to be treated as a special case.

As for 'striking' the wall, it cannot be deflected without passing through the wall, but it must strike the wall before passing through it. So yes, the arrow gets a chance to dispel the wall.


Really? Is a wind wall damage reduction, or is it incorporeal? Because that weapon description doesn't say anything about being deflected by blasts of wind. RAW, I would say it does nothing. RAI you would have a shot with some DMs.

"The ammunition [the arrow or crossbow bolt] is transformed into a force attack". Not "piece of ammunition composed of force". RAW, it was an arrow until it was fired. It isn't an arrow when it hits the wall.


Waiting out enemy casters is a good way to die. They kill the rest of your party and then summon something to play melee the archer.

The rest of the party isn't affected by the wind wall, so the caster has basically handed them a free round in which to kill the caster.

Unless, of course, everyone but the archer is already gone, but if that's the case, then the wind wall is useless because the caster has already demonstrated that he doesn't need it.


Yeah, but wall of force blocks me from obliterating YOU. Wind wall doesn't.

If you could obliterate the archer, then you could have done so without a wind wall. And if you were almost certain to win whether you have a wind wall up or not, the wind wall isn't doing much to help you.


Grease stops charges, but it doesn't negate most melee in the same way. Even a charger can still walk up and beat on you. It is a problem for Frenzied Berserkers, but not melee overall.

Not being able to charge heavily reduces your damage output. Having to fire through a wind wall using a sling heavily reduces your damage output. I'd say that they're both in the same boat.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-12, 09:15 PM
Actually, it's an object. There is no reason in the rules for it to be treated as a special case.
D&D doesn't treat fluids as objects. (A flask of water is an object; a pool of water is not.) So Wall of Stone creates an object, but Wind Wall does not.

stainboy
2011-02-13, 03:23 AM
Wind Wall isn't written in a way that you can apply strict RAW to it. See this line:


(A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.) Gases, most gaseous breath weapons, and creatures in gaseous form cannot pass through the wall (although it is no barrier to incorporeal creatures).

What sizes of projectiles can pass through the wind wall could be defined in the rules. We have language for that. "A thrown or projectile weapon sized for a Large or larger creature," for example. But the text still leaves it up to the DM. It even says "most" gaseous breath weapons and doesn't specify which ones ignore it. There's no way to know what will and won't go through other than DM call.

I think a force arrow goes through, but there's no way to be objectively right or wrong about it.

Zaq
2011-02-13, 04:28 AM
Rangers Archivists are pretty good archers with the spells from Champions of Ruin and Spell Compendium. I really don't see why you'd need to boost archery. You are safer when you are away from the target! That alone is good enough, IMHO.

Fixed that for you. You have to be able to cast more than two spells a day for them to count as part of your strategy. (That said, Archervists are scary.)

Koury
2011-02-13, 05:13 AM
No, but I can see plenty of ways that a flying archer can set up a shot that doesn't have to pass through the wind wall or break the laws of physics.

I was under the impression all arrows kinda broke the laws of physics. Arrows go in a straight line from point A to point B, I believe. No arc at all.

faceroll
2011-02-13, 06:31 AM
Wind Wall does not 'utterly defeat' archery:

You can fire arrows into the air, over a wind wall or other obstruction. Not so useful in a dungeon, but archery doesn't do well in confined spaces anyway.
The wind wall must be entirely vertical by RAW -- if an archer is above or below you, then you can't get the full benefit of the spell.
Arrows that can cast dispel magic on the wall, or that ignore it entirely, are both at least available.
Wind walls are rare anyway -- many wizards can't cast the spell (Shadow Evocation: Wind Wall doesn't actually protect you from missile weapons), and sorcerers and beguilers tend to have better choices.


It's a nasty spell, and it might be better as a level 4 or level 5 spell, but it's not even remotely insurmountable.

It's a little ridiculous, but if you're using a large enough bow, the arrows are too big to care about the wind wall. Nice for shooting in gale forces winds, too.


Fixed that for you. You have to be able to cast more than two spells a day for them to count as part of your strategy. (That said, Archervists are scary.)

Pearls of power for 1st & 2nd level spells are pretty cheap, considering.

lesser_minion
2011-02-13, 07:01 AM
I was under the impression all arrows kinda broke the laws of physics. Arrows go in a straight line from point A to point B, I believe. No arc at all.

It's actually assumed in the rules that the arrow always arcs if fired at a target over a certain distance away, which actually makes sense. You don't have to aim that high in order to hit something 90 feet away.

The real physics-defying bit is that you can do that even if the ceiling is only ten feet off the ground.

The real issue with wind wall isn't whether or not an archer can bypass it -- it's whether or not casters can screw over archers any more easily than noncasters.

Wind wall is a standard action to cast (usually very expensive); it defends against a narrow range of threats; it's short-lived and immobile (so you can't have one up in advance of the encounter); and it limits your movement (you have to keep the wall between you and any archers to benefit). It doesn't strike me as a particularly good spell.

Archery is only one trick, and casters have plenty of ways to deal with one-trick ponies. Just in core, and without even trying, we have:

Grease (I). Negates chargers.
Fly (III). Hurts melee, negates tripping.
Darkness (II). Negates sneak attack.
Obscuring Mist (I). Negates sneak attacks and archery.
Fog Cloud (II). Negates sneak attacks and archery, and isn't centred on the caster for added fun.
Solid Fog (IV). Negates archery, sneak attacks, and charges. Practically a no-save-you-lose.

Havelock
2011-02-13, 07:05 AM
Archers, like any other non-caster, really only has one option:
Go gish

faceroll
2011-02-13, 07:14 AM
Archery is only one trick, and casters have plenty of ways to deal with one-trick ponies. Just in core, and without even trying, we have:

Grease (I). Negates chargers.
Fly (III). Hurts melee, negates tripping.
Darkness (II). Negates sneak attack.
Obscuring Mist (I). Negates sneak attacks and archery.
Fog Cloud (II). Negates sneak attacks and archery, and isn't centred on the caster for added fun.
Solid Fog (IV). Negates archery, sneak attacks, and charges. Practically a no-save-you-lose.


You left Web (II) off that list. While you can burn through it, that is costly, and it can be used to get total cover. It's good vs. everyone, too. So really, the same repertoire of spells that casters use to deal with just about everything deal with you, too.

Furthermore, these spells are only an issue if you routinely fight Batmen wizards. Most of the SLAs that are on monsters aren't particularly godly nor batty. They tend to be blast, raise the dead, turn invisible, fly, or teleport. Archers will have above average reflex saves, thanks to at least a high dex score, and potentially evasion. With being able to pew pew, they can full attack even while the enemy flies/teleports to a better position.

Saph
2011-02-13, 07:43 AM
Wind wall is a standard action to cast (usually very expensive); it defends against a narrow range of threats; it's short-lived and immobile (so you can't have one up in advance of the encounter); and it limits your movement (you have to keep the wall between you and any archers to benefit). It doesn't strike me as a particularly good spell.

It isn't. Wind Wall a niche spell useful in a very, very narrow range of circumstances.

a) You have to be fighting archers. (This rules out about 80% to 90% of battles.)
b) The archers have to have no other effective way of attacking you.
c) The archers have to be on the opposite side of a vertical line, and there has to be some reason why the archers can't just spend their next action walking through/around the wall.
d) There has to be some reason why the archers can't just walk around the corner and either wait for the spell to run out or leave.

Even if all of those apply (which they VERY rarely will) you then have to consider which is better: casting a spell that hampers archers, or casting a spell that actually hurts the enemy? In most cases, casting something like Haste will achieve far more.

Wind Wall gets touted a lot by caster fans as "proof" for why casters are invulnerable, but in truth the situations in which you actually use it are so narrow that it's almost useless. It's an Evocation spell, which my wizard characters frequently ban, and I can honestly say I can't remember a single combat where I thought "Wow, if only I had Wind Wall".

I did have a player use it against me once. He was playing a Druid in a tactical combat setup. I had a pair of Arrow Demons. The Druid cast Wind Wall and boasted about how now he was invulnerable to the puny archers, blah blah blah. The Arrow Demons walked through the Wind Wall and shot the Druid in the face. He spent his next turn running for cover.

lesser_minion
2011-02-13, 07:45 AM
Since I probably should address the original question of the thread:

The main issue with archery is that it's just one trick, just like tripping or charging. Like most 'one tricks', there are deficiencies to it, even before you start considering what a caster might do in order to shut it down.

In some respects, the best way to 'fix' archery is actually to keep giving it the shaft. Trying to take one trick and force it to be applicable everywhere is bad design, because it rarely makes sense for one trick to work everywhere. Instead, you should ensure that PC 'archers' aren't required or expected to specialise in archery to the exclusion of all else. In real terms, that means consolidating feats and keeping archery PrCs short and sweet.

D&D sort of does this -- you can always make a gish, after all -- but that's not really a very satisfying solution for the people who wanted to play Aragorn or Legolas.

Saph
2011-02-13, 07:57 AM
The main issue with archery is that it's just one trick, just like tripping or charging. Like most 'one tricks', there are deficiencies to it, even before you start considering what a caster might do in order to shut it down.

While this is true, it's worth pointing out that a well-built archer is harder to shut down than a tripper or charger. Lots of things are simply untrippable and there are plenty of situations where the battlefield layout prevents a charge, but it's quite hard to stop an archer getting off a shot. Usually the best you can do is to boost your defences to the point where they can't reliably hurt you (which works against pretty much all martial builds).

The biggest problem with archery builds IMO is that they're a bit dull to play. Every turn is either "I Rapid Shot" or "I Manyshot".

faceroll
2011-02-13, 08:06 AM
The biggest problem with archery builds IMO is that they're a bit dull to play. Every turn is either "I Rapid Shot" or "I Manyshot".

Mystic Ranger fixes that fairly well. But then, you're using spells. There are feats like ranged disarm and ranged pin, but those are quite mediocre.

grimbold
2011-02-13, 01:35 PM
What? No we don't. Archers work just fine in 3.5, assuming you play them competently. They do less damage than a melee character, but they have two big advantages:

1) not needing to move to full attack
2) not needing to stand in melee range of big horrible monsters.

The Ranger in our Seven Kingdoms campaign was by the end destroying entire CR-appropriate encounters single-handedly, in some cases before they could even get on the battle mat.

yes but to do this you need guys up front protecting you

CockroachTeaParty
2011-02-13, 01:56 PM
Dude, I have to try a swiftblade archer one of these days. That sounds sweet.

ericgrau
2011-02-13, 02:00 PM
1. If you upgrade archery damage to match melee damage at close range what you have in reality is more melee, which is boring and dumb.
2. Archers need range and cover to compete. Anyone who hasn't been in campaigns where a ranged weapon is a necessity have had very untactical DMs (at least in terms of encounter distance) who plop the monsters next to the PCs at close range in a featureless area. It is quite typical for both melee characters and melee monsters to drop before even making their first swing against range.
3. Agreed, wind wall is almost completely useless. Not that monsters in general tend to have such things. Why again is Mr. imaginary PC archer fighting a caster (odd by itself) who prepared nothing but anti-archer spells (also odd)? Even then 3/4 of them are bypassed or prevented as quickly as they are cast, so it's more like a might help than a certain win. Again, this is oddity #3 of 3; to even get this far is extremely unlikely and contrived let alone pass all 3 conditions.
4. At very high levels, barring uberchargers, most of your damage comes from your magic weapon enchantments. Bows get higher AB and more attacks without the need for 2 magic weapons nor an AB hit through bow specific items and feats, and may even do more damage per round than melee. Again, mainly at very high levels.

In short archers need nothing but more tactical fights.

137beth
2011-02-13, 02:18 PM
1. Let archers add full dex bonus to damage. Composite bows allow for strength bonus as well.
2. For wind wall, add a new feat that allows you to shoot through it, but with a penalty to attack roll. And rangers get this as a bonus feat at 5th level.

stainboy
2011-02-13, 08:02 PM
2. Archers need range and cover to compete. Anyone who hasn't been in campaigns where a ranged weapon is a necessity have had very untactical DMs (at least in terms of encounter distance) who plop the monsters next to the PCs at close range in a featureless area. It is quite typical for both melee characters and melee monsters to drop before even making their first swing against range.

[snip]

In short archers need nothing but more tactical fights.

How about instead of running a bunch of fights with melee enemies on the horizon in a grassy field, I just litter the world with signs that say "cast Entangle here for free XP." It says Entangle, but basically any field control spell or a couple of Fireballs or Flys or Air Walks would work. While the wizard and druid are trading in spell slots for experience points the archer can shoot at the sign to feel useful.