New feat [3.5 PEACH]

[Warlawk]

I am currently working on a bard/warblade and I would like to continue and further enhance the meshing of the two classes. Obviously there aren't any PrCs that do this since ToB came so late in the life of 3.5, and I don't want to work up something like that from scratch. Instead I was thinking of writing up a feat that would allow for further combining the classes building on the base of Song of the White Raven.

Herald of the White Raven
Prerequisites: BAB 9, Song of the White Raven, One of: White Raven Defense or Blade Meditation (White Raven Tactics).
Benefit: You may combine your Bard and Crusader or Warblade levels for the purposes of Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music uses per day and initiator level. (Important to note that this is only initiator level and does not advance progression down the Warblade or Crusader charts for maneuvers and stances known or readied, similarly it is only for the number of bardic music uses per day and does not improve spellcasting or grant new types of bardic music based on level).

So, that's what I have as a core idea. It requires a midrange BAB placing it available around level 12 and also requires a total investment of 3 feats. One feat is sort of a dump feat since Blade Meditation and WRD are pretty mediocre. I was considering adding Martial Study (any white raven maneuver) but that kinda seems like an easy out, it would be the obvious power choice that most people would take unless they had very specific roleplay reasons to chose one of the other two so I scrubbed it. Thoughts, ideas?

[Welknair]

Hmm. Not bad.

"Herald of the White Raven"?

[EdroGrimshell]

Okay, 1) I love your avatar, it's Kawaii. And 2) the feat looks very good, although the BAB requirement is a bit 'clunky' since, IIRC, none of the other multiclass feats require a specific base attack bonus. And that particular BAB restricts what level you can access it until much later than 6th like most (if not all) the other multiclass feats. Those are the only 'problems' i see ATM.

[Andion Isurand]

It would be nice to share the wealth that is the Bardic Knack ACF (PH2 35) with a non-caster.

[Warlawk]

Hmm. Not bad.

"Herald of the White Raven"?

I like it, gonna use it, thanks!


Okay, 1) I love your avatar, it's Kawaii. And 2) the feat looks very good, although the BAB requirement is a bit 'clunky' since, IIRC, none of the other multiclass feats require a specific base attack bonus. And that particular BAB restricts what level you can access it until much later than 6th like most (if not all) the other multiclass feats. Those are the only 'problems' i see ATM.

Heh, the avatar... not really sure how I ended up with it. I mean, I'm a dwarf lovin kinda guy, and while I like anime I tend to stick to old school stuff and cannot stand the cutsey style stuff. The picture though, just clicked. I saw it and immediately saved it and have been using it here and there ever since.

The BAB requirement was written in specifically to cement the position of "Tier 2" multiclass feat, if that makes any sense. You take Song of the White Raven, and then this is a follow up for that one, the second tier in the chain so to speak. I was shooting for level 12 availability so that you could take this around the time when other people are getting really nice stuff from PrCs and full casters are really starting to come into their own. If I dropped the BAB requirement to 6, that would make the feat available at 9 due to bard partial AB advancement. I feel like that might be a little bit early, most PrCs aren't giving you the really good toys that early in the class. It's something I'll keep in mind and talk over with the DM when I propose the feat, but the choice to add a BAB requirement even when most similar feats don't have one was deliberate and serves to place the feat at a particular level bracket within the game instead of being strictly dependent on feat prereqs that might often allow for much earlier entry.

[Silverscale]

This actually makes me think there should be a more general feat that, sort of like Gestalt but not quite as powerful, allows you to count all class levels toward calculating the key ability from each class.

For example you could give a Fighter's full BAB, a Cleric's Turn Undead, a Paladin's Lay on Hands, Bardic Knowledge....Basically make a table that includes all the 20lvl classes and the key ability of each, if you have at least enough levels in a class to have learned it's key ability, then you can count all of your class levels toward advancing that ability.

Not sure what to call it, maybe something like Gestalt Lite.

[blackmage]

This actually makes me think there should be a more general feat that, sort of like Gestalt but not quite as powerful, allows you to count all class levels toward calculating the key ability from each class.

For example you could give a Fighter's full BAB, a Cleric's Turn Undead, a Paladin's Lay on Hands, Bardic Knowledge....Basically make a table that includes all the 20lvl classes and the key ability of each, if you have at least enough levels in a class to have learned it's key ability, then you can count all of your class levels toward advancing that ability.

Not sure what to call it, maybe something like Gestalt Lite.

I don't believe BAB could be modified with such a feat...at least, it probably shouldn't be, BAB is more significant than, say, Sneak Attack progression.

Secondly, A single feat that makes your class level your character level for ALL classes might be too good. It would let you be Rogue 1, Scout 1, Ranger 1, Paladin 1, Something X, and still have max Sneak Attack/Skirmish/FA/Smite/Etc.

There are various feats from Complete Scoundrel that do what you want, but each feat is for a specific pair of classes. Several of them, for example, give you full Skirmish progression from the Scout while requiring only 2 or 3 levels in the class. Making more of these feats would be good.

[Silverscale]

I don't believe BAB could be modified with such a feat...at least, it probably shouldn't be, BAB is more significant than, say, Sneak Attack progression.

Secondly, A single feat that makes your class level your character level for ALL classes might be too good. It would let you be Rogue 1, Scout 1, Ranger 1, Paladin 1, Something X, and still have max Sneak Attack/Skirmish/FA/Smite/Etc.

There are various feats from Complete Scoundrel that do what you want, but each feat is for a specific pair of classes. Several of them, for example, give you full Skirmish progression from the Scout while requiring only 2 or 3 levels in the class. Making more of these feats would be good.

Well yes and no. If you take 1 level in each of 20 different classes yes you would have several different abilities maximized but you would miss out on 19 levels of spell progression, among other things...I'm not talking about giving all abilities of all classes just progressing ONE signature ability from each of your classes. Gestalt allows you to take ALL of the best things from 2 different classes, what I'm talking about would not even be as powerful as that.

[Person_Man]

There is no Herald of the White Raven or "Practiced Blade Magic User" feat because of the unique way initiator levels stack. You get your base class levels + 1/2 of all other levels.

Your proposed feat would mess with this formula, which works very well. It would also pushes a Bard/Crusader or Warblade from Tier 3 up to Tier 2, because Bardic Music uses and Initiator level are both hugely important resources.

Anywho, I think it's a very great name for the concept, and despite the above reservations it's not a game breaking idea. It's just that the way it's worded is a bit confusing. An alternative would be:

Herald of the White Raven

Prerequisites: Bardic Music Ability, Bardic Knowledge Ability, +9 BAB, Song of the White Raven feat

Benefit: Your Crusader and Warblade levels stack with your Bard levels for the purpose of determining the number of Bardic Music uses per day (but not the types of music that you are capable of using) and your Bardic Knowledge ability.


That would be a "cleaner" feat, and would still be hugely powerful, considering the existance of Bard augmenting feats (Dragonfire Inspiration, Doomspeech, Snowflake Wardance, etc) and PrC. A standard build would be something like Bard 1/Crusader 19. Thus this one feat would grant 19 Bardic Music uses, plus full Bardic Knowledge.

[blackmage]

Silverscale: What I'm objecting to is a single feat that works for all class combinations. The precedent of official feats (as well as the OP's feat) is a feat that works for two specific classes (like Scout and Rogue). Many of the official ones actually only advance an ability from one of the classes (the Scout/Rogue feat only advances Skirmish, for more Sneak Attack you need real Rogue levels). While I think that such two-class feats are great, and in a lot of cases a great deal for a single feat, making a feat combining three or more classes is too strong. I guess this could be a YMMV, if you want to use it in a very high-powered game.

[Warlawk]

There is no Herald of the White Raven or "Practiced Blade Magic User" feat because of the unique way initiator levels stack. You get your base class levels + 1/2 of all other levels.

Your proposed feat would mess with this formula, which works very well. It would also pushes a Bard/Crusader or Warblade from Tier 3 up to Tier 2, because Bardic Music uses and Initiator level are both hugely important resources.

Anywho, I think it's a very great name for the concept, and despite the above reservations it's not a game breaking idea. It's just that the way it's worded is a bit confusing. An alternative would be:

Herald of the White Raven

Prerequisites: Bardic Music Ability, Bardic Knowledge Ability, +9 BAB, Song of the White Raven feat

Benefit: Your Crusader and Warblade levels stack with your Bard levels for the purpose of determining the number of Bardic Music uses per day (but not the types of music that you are capable of using) and your Bardic Knowledge ability.


That would be a "cleaner" feat, and would still be hugely powerful, considering the existance of Bard augmenting feats (Dragonfire Inspiration, Doomspeech, Snowflake Wardance, etc) and PrC. A standard build would be something like Bard 1/Crusader 19. Thus this one feat would grant 19 Bardic Music uses, plus full Bardic Knowledge.

Good points to consider, thanks for the feedback. Just one point I would nitpick on your feat writeup if you wanted a "clean" feat. Song of the White Raven already requires Bardic Music so adding that requirement to your feat is a bit redundant and just adds unneeded text.

[Person_Man]

Just one point I would nitpick on your feat writeup if you wanted a "clean" feat. Song of the White Raven already requires Bardic Music so adding that requirement to your feat is a bit redundant and just adds unneeded text.

True, but I find that it's better to be redundant for the sake of consistency. For example, Knock-Down requires Improved Trip but not Combat Expertise. So if you find a way to get Improved Trip without Combat Expertise (via a bonus feat or a spell or whatever) you can essentially bypass the Combat Expertise requirement. (Which isn't a bad thing - but it's not what the writer intended).

I'm not aware of any way you could get Song of the White Raven without Bardic Music. But I'm guessing that some creative Playgrounder could figure out a way.

[absolmorph]

There is no Herald of the White Raven or "Practiced Blade Magic User" feat because of the unique way initiator levels stack. You get your base class levels + 1/2 of all other levels.

Your proposed feat would mess with this formula, which works very well. It would also pushes a Bard/Crusader or Warblade from Tier 3 up to Tier 2, because Bardic Music uses and Initiator level are both hugely important resources.
I don't think messing with the formula a bit is a horrible thing. It doesn't alter it in a way that's incredibly game-changing; the ToB PrCs do the same thing. The only additional work is adding the levels of two classes rather than just taking the one.


True, but I find that it's better to be redundant for the sake of consistency. For example, Knock-Down requires Improved Trip but not Combat Expertise. So if you find a way to get Improved Trip without Combat Expertise (via a bonus feat or a spell or whatever) you can essentially bypass the Combat Expertise requirement. (Which isn't a bad thing - but it's not what the writer intended).

I'm not aware of any way you could get Song of the White Raven without Bardic Music. But I'm guessing that some creative Playgrounder could figure out a way.
Epic Magic? :smalltongue: