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View Full Version : [3.5] Obscure PrC Query



arguskos
2011-02-11, 12:55 AM
Ok, so, here's another one for you guys, and this one's really, really obscure.

I had a funny idea the other day for a high-ish level character, and I want to see if it's possible: A Duskblade/Mystic Ranger Theurge. Yeah, it's craaaaazy. The issue is that theurge classes never have full (or even 3/4) BAB, and this theoretical gish would want full (or at least 3/4) BAB for all his levels.

My question to you: does any such theurge class exist in ANY of the myriad sources D&D 3.5 has? And I'm taking really obscure here. Dragon/Dungeon Magazines are legit. Ravenloft? Sure! Dragonlance? Why not. Anything compatible with 3.5 is good to go here.

Can it be done? This is a pure thought exercise, nothing else, but I want to know if it can be done semi-effectively.

Zaq
2011-02-11, 12:57 AM
Can you get Trackless Step somehow? If so, Arcane Heirophant from RotW has 3/4 BAB.

arguskos
2011-02-11, 01:06 AM
Can you get Trackless Step somehow? If so, Arcane Heirophant from RotW has 3/4 BAB.
Dunno. Think I need Druid for Trackless Step, and I'm already entering the theurge late (I get level 2s with each class at level 5 and level 4, respectively for Duskblade and Mystic Ranger), so I'd rather not delay it. If there's a way to get it on Ranger though, that'd be great.

Cog
2011-02-11, 01:12 AM
Bamboo Spirit Folk from OA get Trackless Step, though it's a racial feature instead of a class one. The Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff) has a few other options as well.

Kerghan
2011-02-11, 01:13 AM
Fochlucan Lyrist, the only problem is that you would have to take a level of bard and druid to meet the requirements, (plus two levels of rogue for the evasion class feature) although there might be some alternative class features for the classes you mentioned that give you those things. Maybe Unearthed Arcana has something. There are also alignment restrictions, and pretty steep requirements on top of that. But it has full base attack bonus.

Cog
2011-02-11, 01:18 AM
Fochlucan Lyrist, the only problem is that you would have to take a level of bard and druid to meet the requirements, although there might be some alternative class features for the classes you mentioned that give you those things. Maybe Unearthed Arcana has something.
You'll be stuck with a dip for Bardic Knowledge, I think, but you can swing Druidic as a Hellbred. You retain the languages known in your past life, so if you were previously a druid...

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 01:19 AM
Legacy Champion advancing a theurge PrC is 3/4 BAB, and would give 8/10 dual casting progression..

Or, you could use the Skillful weapon enhancement from CAr, which gives 3/4 BAB when using that weapon.

Kerghan
2011-02-11, 01:25 AM
Fochlucan Lyrist has full base attack bonus, two strong saves, and 6+int mod skill points, as well as full caster spell progression for both the arcane and divine spellcasting classes. Aside from those features and bardic stuff at level 1, it has a d6 hit dice and not much else. You also couldn't take your first level until 11th level, which makes it a pretty long term investment.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 01:32 AM
You'll be stuck with a dip for Bardic Knowledge, I think, but you can swing Druidic as a Hellbred. You retain the languages known in your past life, so if you were previously a druid...

There are a lot of ways to get druidic though most require a DM saying OK.

Evasion can be had with a soulmeld+chakra (two feats)

Kerghan
2011-02-11, 01:48 AM
Once again, an issue that can be solved with butt loads of multiclassing. Not much a level of fighter, or an appropriate casting class can't cure, except maybe buyer's remorse. This is why the retraining rules out of the PHII are so important.

Psyren
2011-02-11, 02:04 AM
You can qualify for FL with some incarnum feats to get evasion. (Aren't there some boots in a meld that grants it?)

Kerghan
2011-02-11, 02:20 AM
Using several different types of magic, like chakras and such seems tricky and potentially bordering on dm intervention. Some dms are leery of unique abilities centralized to a particular setting (or book), and might prohibit using those options. That being said, some dms (especially those with god complexes) outlaw every conceivable trick in 3.5 and make their abysmal world just every bit as miserable as the real one, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a hobby store. Of course, using two different types of unique abilities (i.e. truename magic, and chakras) could prove confusing and potentially broken. Don't cross the streams man.

Thespianus
2011-02-11, 03:38 AM
If there's a way to get Divine Power onto the spell list for the Mystic Ranger, that might help you ignore the BAB-problem?

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 04:36 AM
Another issue is how many level of the base classes (Duskblade and Mystic Ranger) you'll need to qualify for any theurge type PrC. In the case of the standard Mystic Theurge, you need 2nd level Arcane and 2nd level Divine casting, which would mean Duskblade 5/Mystic Ranger 4...so even with another 11 levels of theurgy, it would only be 16/15 casting.

It obviously needs some kind of early entry shenanigans, like Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster or one of the other usual suspects...

WinWin
2011-02-11, 05:35 AM
Wildrunner gains trackless step as a class feature. Requires elf and you would be losing 2 CL. I think that Wildshape ranger would benefit more from Arcane Heirophant though.

Fochluchan Lyrist could be available using Prestige Bard and Spelldancer to meet the Bardic Knowledge and Evasion requirements. You're own your own when it comes to cheesing Druidic.

Darrin
2011-02-11, 07:26 AM
A Skillful weapon (+2 enhancement, Complete Arcane) can give you medium BAB.



Fochluchan Lyrist could be available using Prestige Bard and Spelldancer to meet the Bardic Knowledge and Evasion requirements. You're own your own when it comes to cheesing Druidic.

Wild Defender (Dragon #324) gains Trackless Step at 3rd, and has early Ranger casting similar to Mystic Ranger (but no 0th or 5th level spells).

Dipping into Prestige Bard means losing a caster level and +1 BAB. There's a couple other ways to get Bardic Knowledge or something very close to it... for example, some argue that the Loremaster's "Lore" ability should count.

Evasion can be obtained via feats: Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet).

Speeking Druidic without druid levels... is there a specific rule against just putting ranks in Speak Language (Druidic)? I don't see anything in the SRD about not being able to buy ranks in secret languages. If you need to find a teacher... find a Blighter or Verdant Prince, I suppose. Permanent tongues might work, or Pearl of Speech. Soulspeaker Circlet (another soulmeld) doesn't mention any language limitations.

You can get into Fochlucan Lyrist a level early with the Favored and Primary Contact feats. This lets you take FL1 at ECL 10, dip into Sublime Chord at ECL 11, and then finish off with FL2-10. Only try this if you have access to retraining, psychic reformation, or dark chaos shuffle... otherwise you're wasting 2 of your 7 feat slots.

FMArthur
2011-02-11, 08:08 AM
This is probably stepping out of the scope of the issue, but aren't the Duskblade class features the only reason you'd care to combine it with Mystic Ranger, given SotAO? You wouldn't get those from a PrC. And remember that Mystic Rangers don't get a whole lot better after level 10 anyway... you might just be able to arrange a straight base class/base class build to get what you want.

Cog
2011-02-11, 08:24 AM
This is probably stepping out of the scope of the issue, but aren't the Duskblade class features the only reason you'd care to combine it with Mystic Ranger, given SotAO?
There's an easier way to do that, though you don't get the Ranger spells as well. Takes a few feats (though we're well into that territory already), but Mage of the Arcane Order will do the trick. One level early on to get access up to third level spells, and three more levels after you get the Duskblade's full attack casting.

Amphetryon
2011-02-11, 08:28 AM
Loredelver gives 2/3 of the class features needed for Fochlucan Lyrist, at the "cost" of being an Illumian.

Linkie (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds).

arguskos
2011-02-11, 01:50 PM
Legacy Champion advancing a theurge PrC is 3/4 BAB, and would give 8/10 dual casting progression.
Hmm. I liiiiike Legacy Champion advancing a theurge class. That seems nice. Easy to enter as well, and keeps BAB decently high. It ends up with +16 BAB if I'm counting correctly, Duskblade 5/Mystic Ranger 4/Mystic Theurge 1/Legacy Champion 10, Duskblade 14 and MR 13 casting, which is pretty solid.

I could alternatively do MR 1/Duskblade 7/MT 2/Legacy Champion 10 using Precocious Apprentice (here acceptable, since I say so :smalltongue:). That gets me Duskblade 17 casting, which is 5th level spells, and MR 11 casting, which is enough for 5th level spells on the MR side. That's looking good, honestly.

The question then becomes... is there a better possible theurge than Mystic Theurge for this exercise?


Fochlucan Lyrist has full base attack bonus, two strong saves, and 6+int mod skill points, as well as full caster spell progression for both the arcane and divine spellcasting classes. Aside from those features and bardic stuff at level 1, it has a d6 hit dice and not much else. You also couldn't take your first level until 11th level, which makes it a pretty long term investment.
I don't like Fochlucan Lyrist here, just because it's SO difficult to enter that it's prohibitive.


A Skillful weapon (+2 enhancement, Complete Arcane) can give you medium BAB.
Skillful's description seems to imply that it overrides your BAB, since it lacks a "if your BAB is less than 3/4ths" clause. I don't like that. I also dislike using an item to fix a major build vulnerability. It's a back-up though, if we can't make the Legacy Champion work.


Wild Defender (Dragon #324) gains Trackless Step at 3rd, and has early Ranger casting similar to Mystic Ranger (but no 0th or 5th level spells).

Dipping into Prestige Bard means losing a caster level and +1 BAB. There's a couple other ways to get Bardic Knowledge or something very close to it... for example, some argue that the Loremaster's "Lore" ability should count.

Evasion can be obtained via feats: Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet).

Speeking Druidic without druid levels... is there a specific rule against just putting ranks in Speak Language (Druidic)? I don't see anything in the SRD about not being able to buy ranks in secret languages. If you need to find a teacher... find a Blighter or Verdant Prince, I suppose. Permanent tongues might work, or Pearl of Speech. Soulspeaker Circlet (another soulmeld) doesn't mention any language limitations.

You can get into Fochlucan Lyrist a level early with the Favored and Primary Contact feats. This lets you take FL1 at ECL 10, dip into Sublime Chord at ECL 11, and then finish off with FL2-10. Only try this if you have access to retraining, psychic reformation, or dark chaos shuffle... otherwise you're wasting 2 of your 7 feat slots.[/QUOTE]
Eeeeeh, I'm kinda not liking the FL thing. It just seems too complex for too little benefit, when the simpler MT/LC trick does the job better and easier.


This is probably stepping out of the scope of the issue, but aren't the Duskblade class features the only reason you'd care to combine it with Mystic Ranger, given SotAO? You wouldn't get those from a PrC. And remember that Mystic Rangers don't get a whole lot better after level 10 anyway... you might just be able to arrange a straight base class/base class build to get what you want.
It's for the giggles of having both class lists on a gish. This is pure mental exercise, nothing else.


Loredelver gives 2/3 of the class features needed for Fochlucan Lyrist, at the "cost" of being an Illumian.

Linkie (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds).
Huh. That's a good link for future fiddling about with. I think I might need to play with it now. Thanks for that.

Yeah, it's looking like, in absence of anything better, Mystic Ranger 1/Duskblade 7/Mystic Theurge 2/Legacy Champion 10 is my plan. That nets me +16/+11/+6/+1 BAB, Duskblade 17 casting and Mystic Ranger 11 casting. That's pretty solid.

Now, to make it happen, for laughs. Thanks for all the help guys, could never have done it without ya!

Person_Man
2011-02-11, 04:16 PM
A Chameleon can cast spells from any list up to 5th level. Given the slow progression of Duskblade and Mystic Ranger spells, Whatever 5/Chameleon 10 would have all of the class abilities (and then some) of a Duskblade 3/Mystic Ranger 2/Mystic Thurge-whatever 10, with the 3/4 BAB you're looking for and faster spell progression.

FMArthur
2011-02-11, 05:32 PM
A Chameleon can cast spells from any list up to 5th level. Given the slow progression of Duskblade and Mystic Ranger spells, Whatever 5/Chameleon 10 would have all of the class abilities (and then some) of a Duskblade 3/Mystic Ranger 2/Mystic Thurge-whatever 10, with the 3/4 BAB you're looking for and faster spell progression.

They can cast up to 6th level spells, actually - which doesn't matter for Mystic Ranger and Duskblade emulation, but it means that he can actually leave the prestige class at 7 if need be and still have similar spellcasting (plus it's a decent break point for Ability Boon +4 and Double Aptitude).

Hazzardevil
2011-02-21, 01:17 PM
I think that what you should do is the following:

Take 3 levels of wild defender and then take at least enough duskblade and mystic ranger levels to get 1 BAb overall then go into Arcane Hirophant. I reccomend that you use the Wildshape ACF for mystic ranger.