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gomipile
2011-02-11, 03:38 AM
Is there a cheaper way for an archer to get past a Lich's DR(15/bludgeoning and magic) than a Transmuting bow? The only bludgeoning arrows I've seen only do nonlethal damage, which is useless against undead.

I ask because I have an archery focused Swift Hunter in a campaign where two of the BBEGs we'll be facing in a few levels are level 11-12ish liches.

Runestar
2011-02-11, 03:54 AM
Force weapon property, +2, magic item compendium. Ammo deals force damage, automatically ignoring dr. :smallsmile:

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 03:58 AM
force enchantment is in the magic item compendium I think.

gomipile
2011-02-11, 05:05 AM
The description of that enchantment seems to suggest that it can only go on a ranged weapon, not on ammunition. So it would be the same cost as a Transmuting bow.

If it could go on ammunition, I suppose I could carry around a few Force arrows, at 366 gold and 2 silver apiece. At that point, I might as well be using spell storing arrows. As long as the spell in the spell storing arrow does more than 15 damage, that would be strictly better than the Force arrow at less than half the price.

At that point though, I might as well put a better spell than a damage spell in the arrow. Then this thread instead becomes "how can my archer best contribute to a fight against a lich."

Boci
2011-02-11, 05:40 AM
Can't you just take a -4 penalty on attack rolls to deal lethal damage with the blunt arrows, or does the rule not work vice versa?

Eldan
2011-02-11, 05:53 AM
The force bow is still a thing you should look in for later, it's generally a very useful enchantment as Force damage is more or less irresistible.

Ernir
2011-02-11, 07:00 AM
There aren't any lethal blunt arrows, as far as I know. You're going to need magic tricks to do this effectively. =/


Can't you just take a -4 penalty on attack rolls to deal lethal damage with the blunt arrows, or does the rule not work vice versa?

Yup, that works. The -4 penalty sucks, but I'm guessing that in most cases it's going to be better than trying to punch through DR.

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 07:36 AM
Not that it would help this particular build, but the Skullclan Hunter PrC gets the ability to overcome the SR of any undead with melee or ranged attacks at 5th level.

gomipile
2011-02-11, 06:18 PM
So, does everyone think that blunt arrows fired from a magic bow at a -4 penalty to do lethal damage would get through a Lich's DR?

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-11, 06:27 PM
So, does everyone think that blunt arrows fired from a magic bow at a -4 penalty to do lethal damage would get through a Lich's DR?

It works by RAW.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-11, 06:28 PM
There's a weapon enchantment in CM, I think called "magebane". It causes 2d6 extra damage to anything that cast arcane spells or has arcane SLA's. It's only a +1 enhancement, I believe. I'm AFB right now, so I don't know for sure.

Mastikator
2011-02-11, 06:32 PM
Yup, that works. The -4 penalty sucks,
Why? It's not like liches are tanks with massive AC score. They have +5 natural armor, but chances are they can't wear armor without arcane spell failure so it's likely that you can hit the lich even when rolling low.

gomipile
2011-02-11, 06:39 PM
Why? It's not like liches are tanks with massive AC score. They have +5 natural armor, but chances are they can't wear armor without arcane spell failure so it's likely that you can hit the lich even when rolling low.

Well, the sample lich in the MM used a lot of its wealth by level to purchase items which increase its AC. I can see why a DM wouldn't want to give that much loot to a party for one kill though.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-11, 06:40 PM
Why? It's not like liches are tanks with massive AC score. They have +5 natural armor, but chances are they can't wear armor without arcane spell failure so it's likely that you can hit the lich even when rolling low.

There are plenty of ways to get decent armor without ASF (twilight mithral chain shirt, bracers of armor, or a robe that grants an armor bonus, etc.) or else the Lich will probably at least have mage armor. That get's him an AC of 19 + Dex just to start off. Add in some deflection bonus and maybe a shield spell (or even an enchanted mithral shield) and you're looking at a pretty decent AC.

Spellcasters don't get to be immortal without being pretty concerned with their own safety. Paranoia is par for the course here.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-11, 06:43 PM
Why? It's not like liches are tanks with massive AC score. They have +5 natural armor, but chances are they can't wear armor without arcane spell failure so it's likely that you can hit the lich even when rolling low.

Unless it's a cleric lich, or a bard lich (maybe one with the Requriem feat so it can buff the other BBEG and any other undead allies abit) or an Archivist lich or a beguiler lich, or a duskblade lich, or a warmage lich, or a DREAD NECROMANCER lich!

(note, many of these classes can take a feat to improve the grade of armor they can wear while casting spells the others don't need to)

EDIT:

Forgot: Or a druid lich, or a favored soul lich, or a shugenja lich, or a spirit shaman lich or even the dreaded adept lich... any more spellcasting classes that can wear armor out there?

EDIT2: Maybe a bard lich with the right feats would be a nasty surprise for a bunch of PC's... I mean, teamed up with a more "traditional" lich, especially.
Even a straight 12th level bard with, for example, the Song of the Heart and Requriem feats,and the Inspirational Boost and Harmony (from Player's Guide to Faerun) spells could give a +2 morale bonus to undead allies (it would give a +5 bonus to any living allies it had.) Since it's undead, it will never tire, so it can sing all day. Give it the other good bard feats (Melodic Casting, Lyric Spell, etc.) and it could really make things harder on the PC's.

nedz
2011-02-11, 06:54 PM
Mmm, well the Lich can probably cast a few spells which may help to.

Your best role might just be to supress any mirror images with rapid shot, Arrow Storm etc. and then aim to do as much damage as possible to the Lich.
Undead bane might help ?

Your a swift hunter: do you have a suitable favoured enemy ?
If so Foebane[Lvl 4 Spc] would give you a +5 bane weapon.
Exacting Shot[Lvl 2 SpC] would auto confirm crits on a Favoured Enemy, swift casting, 1 rd/level duration.

Hunter's Mercy[lvl 1 Spc] would give you auto crits for 1 shot, but its a std action to cast - so this is a poor option.

gomipile
2011-02-11, 07:02 PM
Mmm, well the Lich can probably cast a few spells which may help to.

Your best role might just be to supress any mirror images with rapid shot, Arrow Storm etc. and then aim to do as much damage as possible to the Lich.
Undead bane might help ?

Your a swift hunter: do you have a suitable favoured enemy ?
If so Foebane[Lvl 4 Spc] would give you a +5 bane weapon.
Exacting Shot[Lvl 2 SpC] would auto confirm crits on a Favoured Enemy, swift casting, 1 rd/level duration.

Hunter's Mercy[lvl 1 Spc] would give you auto crits for 1 shot, but its a std action to cast - so this is a poor option.

I have Undead+4 as one of my favored enemies, yes. I can't cast level 4 spells yet. Also, even swift hunters cannot crit undead, they are just allowed to apply skirmish damage to them(if undead is chosen as a favored enemy.)

Mastikator
2011-02-11, 07:15 PM
There are plenty of ways to get decent armor without ASF (twilight mithral chain shirt, bracers of armor, or a robe that grants an armor bonus, etc.) or else the Lich will probably at least have mage armor. That get's him an AC of 19 + Dex just to start off. Add in some deflection bonus and maybe a shield spell (or even an enchanted mithral shield) and you're looking at a pretty decent AC.

Spellcasters don't get to be immortal without being pretty concerned with their own safety. Paranoia is par for the course here.

Well yeah, with mage armor, shield, natural and lets say +2 dex and a +2 deflection we're looking at AC 27.
A lich level 11 is a CR 13, so lets assume the archer is at level 12 and full bab, high dex (18?), probably a +3 or +4 weapon (or at least arrows), maybe one of the team mates can spare a buff (heroism and prayer, lets say) that adds a bonus on attack rolls, probably some feat like point blank that adds a little extra. You don't ambush a friggin lich without a little preparation, right?
So 12(bab)+4(dex)+3(magic)+2(heroism)+2(prayer)+2(som e feats), with a -4 you'd still only need to roll a 6 or higher to hit on the first attack, and 11 on the second.

My point is, I wouldn't waste a feat on this one thing. A magic item that has other uses, sure, but not a feat.

Also, as it has (rightfully) been pointed out in this forum on countless occations, self-buffs that give miss-chances are by far superior to ac, displacement, mirror image and stoneskin will be a much greater defense from a lich's perspective than just adding AC.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-11, 07:36 PM
Also, as it has (rightfully) been pointed out in this forum on countless occations, self-buffs that give miss-chances are by far superior to ac, displacement, mirror image and stoneskin will be a much greater defense from a lich's perspective than just adding AC.

Ok. Cleric Lich: Let's say Cleric 12 (also possible)

Shield of Faith +4 (casts on itself), +2 Fullplate (+10) it's +5 Natural Armor Let's also give it a minimum level potion of barkskin, since it would stack with it's inherant natural armor, for a total natural armor of +7 a +2 heavy shield (+4,) and, since it's in fullplate, +1 from dex. OK 10+10+7+4+1= That's a 32 AC

So, you'd need at least an 11 on the first attack and a 16 on your second, with your other assumptions. Also, as far as miss chances (at least against archers): Entropic Shield.

The above AC seems to me the bear minimum likely from a cleric lich.

Just saying, a cleric lich (or any other lich that can wear armor) can make life very difficult for someone who has to take a penalty.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-11, 07:54 PM
Where are blunt arrows at? I don't think I've seen those I stopped calculating ThAC0.
As for taking a -4 to deal lethal damage, my opinion, if you can do that with the sap, you should be able to do it with the arrows. Beyond that, ask the DM.


There's a weapon enchantment in CM, I think called "magebane". It causes 2d6 extra damage to anything that cast arcane spells or has arcane SLA's. It's only a +1 enhancement, I believe. I'm AFB right now, so I don't know for sure.
Yes Magebane (there's also a psibane which is distinctly crappier). They're both in MiC. Your weapon now acts as if enhancement bonus is 2 higher, and get +2d6 damage.
Not sure what spells you're going to take regularly, but I don't think that the majority of ranger spells get cast on enemies to kill/incapacitate them like wizard spells do. Thus, having a high save DC isn't as much of an issue as it would be for a wiz/sorc.
Where am I going with this? Take the feat Mageslayer (CArc, MM4?), and the one which allows ranged AOOs (CW?). Now that lich can't cast without getting smacked within like 30 feet of you.
Mageslayer also opens you up to Pierce magical concealment and protection (need blindfight for PMC). Now you can find him through any defensive spell he casts, and can ignore a lot of his best abjurations. Not an issue here, but my solution to the Abjurant Champion with Shield and G.Luminous Armor is someone with Pierce Magical Protection. Instantly ignore 22 AC.
If he does a lot of Rays, or is a gish lich, I'd highly recommend getting some +1 armor spikes, and putting 'smoking' on them for an additional +1. You've now got a 50% miss chance.


Why? It's not like liches are tanks with massive AC score. They have +5 natural armor, but chances are they can't wear armor without arcane spell failure so it's likely that you can hit the lich even when rolling low.
If everyone goes on about wizards being the most powerful class, why wouldn't a wizard lich use all the same awesome spells that he would've while alive?

gomipile
2011-02-11, 08:02 PM
Where are blunt arrows at?

The Arms and Equipment Guide.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-11, 08:03 PM
If everyone goes on about wizards being the most powerful class, why wouldn't a wizard lich use all the same awesome spells that he would've while alive?It must be that totally-existant clause in the lich template that prevents them from using their spells to do anything intelligent. :smallamused:

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-11, 08:13 PM
Well yeah, with mage armor, shield, natural and lets say +2 dex and a +2 deflection we're looking at AC 27.
A lich level 11 is a CR 13, so lets assume the archer is at level 12 and full bab, high dex (18?), probably a +3 or +4 weapon (or at least arrows), maybe one of the team mates can spare a buff (heroism and prayer, lets say) that adds a bonus on attack rolls, probably some feat like point blank that adds a little extra. You don't ambush a friggin lich without a little preparation, right?
So 12(bab)+4(dex)+3(magic)+2(heroism)+2(prayer)+2(som e feats), with a -4 you'd still only need to roll a 6 or higher to hit on the first attack, and 11 on the second.

First, your assumption that the PC is higher level than the BBEG is extremely suspect. It usually works the other way around, with a few levels in the bad guy's favor. I'd assume that the PC would be level 10 at the most, probably lower.

Second, your assumption that the PC has full BAB is incorrect, since we know that he is playing a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger multiclass. Depending on which class he is emphasizing, he could be losing a few points of BAB. He definitely loses at least one from the 1st level of Scout.

Third, the spell heroism only affects one target, so there's a good chance it won't be cast on the archer when it could be put on one of the heavier hitters, like a Fighter or Barbarian.



So, with a different set of assumptions, you now need to roll an 11 or better to hit (and probably have to deal with some form of a miss chance besides), possibly even higher if the character is lower than level 10 and/or has a lot of levels in Scout. And you're only taking the one attack because you are using your Move Action to activate Skirmish damage.

A lot of these issues could be resolved if the OP posted his build or at least what level he is or will be when he expects to meet these liches. And also whether or not they're going to fight both liches at once or take them one at a time (because that might indicate how much higher level the liches are).

gomipile
2011-02-11, 08:29 PM
First, your assumption that the PC is higher level than the BBEG is extremely suspect. It usually works the other way around, with a few levels in the bad guy's favor. I'd assume that the PC would be level 10 at the most, probably lower.

Second, your assumption that the PC has full BAB is incorrect, since we know that he is playing a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger multiclass. Depending on which class he is emphasizing, he could be losing a few points of BAB. He definitely loses at least one from the 1st level of Scout.

Third, the spell heroism only affects one target, so there's a good chance it won't be cast on the archer when it could be put on one of the heavier hitters, like a Fighter or Barbarian.



So, with a different set of assumptions, you now need to roll an 11 or better to hit (and probably have to deal with some form of a miss chance besides), possibly even higher if the character is lower than level 10 and/or has a lot of levels in Scout. And you're only taking the one attack because you are using your Move Action to activate Skirmish damage.

A lot of these issues could be resolved if the OP posted his build or at least what level he is or will be when he expects to meet these liches. And also whether or not they're going to fight both liches at once or take them one at a time (because that might indicate how much higher level the liches are).

Build so far is Scout 4 + X Ranger. We'll probably be somewhere around level 9 to 11 when we confront the liches. One of the liches is an arcane caster, either a wizard or a sorcerer, we don't know. The other lich is a cleric. I have no idea how the encounter will be structured, or whether we'll have to fight them both at once.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-11, 08:37 PM
Yeah, a chance you'd be fighting two liches at once, definitely take Mageslayer. Your CL will drop in regards to DC of spell saves, and certain variable effects, like the extra missiles from magic missile, but being able to sit in the back and hurt both liches with 1d8+X force with an additional 2d6 when it's not even your turn would be great at improving your battle effectiveness.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-11, 08:38 PM
I have no idea how the encounter will be structured, or whether we'll have to fight them both at once.

If you have the ability to initiate the fight on your own terms, you should be able to choose (unless the two are always together). But I guess this really depends on what the goal of the adventure is (just killing the liches, stopping their evil plans with violence, or doing something else and the liches just happen to be in the way and a fight is inevitable).

Sometimes I think I use excessive parenthesis (probably). :smallwink:


EDIT:

Yeah, a chance you'd be fighting two liches at once, definitely take Mageslayer. Your CL will drop in regards to DC of spell saves, and certain variable effects, like the extra missiles from magic missile, but being able to sit in the back and hurt both liches with 1d8+X force with an additional 2d6 when it's not even your turn would be great at improving your battle effectiveness.

Caster Level does not affect the DCs of saving throws.

Also, what is that feat you mentioned that gives ranged AoOs? I can't find it in Complete Warrior, and I don't remember ever reading about such a feat. My own Ranger/Scout would love to know this!

herrhauptmann
2011-02-11, 10:40 PM
Looking...
I've found "Ranged threat" dragon mag #350. Not as good as I thought. Perhaps combine with Greater/Improved Combat reflexes Drag mag 340

Hmmm, not sure what I was originally thinking of, but those aren't quite it.

gomipile
2011-02-13, 02:16 AM
Yeah, I can't afford to take 2 feats just to deal with this encounter.

Any other ideas on how my character can do a little planning for this? Depending on if I can convince our wizard to get Craft Magic Arms And Armor I just might be able to get a force bow by then.

I am, of course, open to more suggestions on advice regarding possible permutations of the encounter, though.

RTGoodman
2011-02-13, 02:22 AM
See if your DM will let you get a version of this thing (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/news_20061227.jpg

Flickerdart
2011-02-13, 02:27 AM
Caster Level does not affect the DCs of saving throws.

Also, what is that feat you mentioned that gives ranged AoOs? I can't find it in Complete Warrior, and I don't remember ever reading about such a feat. My own Ranger/Scout would love to know this!
Caster level affects what spells you can cast, however. Ranger CL is awful as-is, even the slightest dent could lose you your casting.

gomipile
2011-02-13, 03:00 AM
Caster level affects what spells you can cast, however. Ranger CL is awful as-is, even the slightest dent could lose you your casting.

Plus the fact that I lose 2 CLs for the 4 levels of Scout I dipped for Swift Hunter.