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Tyndmyr
2011-02-11, 09:34 AM
Random thoughts for a hypothetical character in whatever 3.5 campaign I happen to play in next....I think he's gonna be a lawful good arcane gish. I'm not stuck on a specific arcane class....Im assuming wizard for starters. Would consider going archivist if it gishes well.

So, I need recommendations for great all-day buffs, as well as easy to enter classes that have full BaB and full arcane advancement or close. Ideally, I want to have pretty close to full BaB and 9th level spells before level 20.

Eldritch Knight is aright, but it gives up a CL, has a lack of class features, and isn't enter-able for a bit without shenanigans. Also, picking up proficiency with all martial weapons will likely require a dip in something.

Abjurant Champion seems a bit better, but there's no early entry options for it, so I'll almost certainly need something before then to prevent loss of lots of spellcasting or BaB.

Current list of 24 hr(or hr/level) buffs I'll likely use: The heart of x spells. The +5 init spell from that faerun book I can't recall the name of. Mage armor and it's greater cousin. The greater resistance line. The stat buffs

Races Im pondering include the usual suspects. Dragonwrought kobold, human, strongheart halfling and lesser tiefling. I'm not stuck on a race, but I'd prefer to avoid anything too overtly wierd.

Also, I'd like to be able to plausibly fake being of a non-arcane class. Hence the focus on long duration buffs and the like. Thoughts?

LordBlades
2011-02-11, 09:43 AM
First of all: any outsider gets proficiency with all martial weapons; some (like mechanatrix also get heavy armor, allowing you to qualify for spellsword (great 1 level dip).

Is LA buyoff allowed in your campaign?
If so I'd suggest

Mechanatrix wizard 5/eldritch knight 2(for bab)/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 7

If LA buyoff is not allowed:

Neraph wizard 5/eldritch knight 3/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 7.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-11, 09:54 AM
Don't know if LA buyoff is a thing yet...depends on the DM, and this idea I'm working up for whatever campaign I happen to be in next. So, certain things have to be a bit flexible for that.

The outsider point is an excellent one. LA buyoff would make the regular Tiefling an excellent choice.

What does Mechanatrix buy me, besides Outsider type?

LordBlades
2011-02-11, 10:02 AM
Don't know if LA buyoff is a thing yet...depends on the DM, and this idea I'm working up for whatever campaign I happen to be in next. So, certain things have to be a bit flexible for that.

The outsider point is an excellent one. LA buyoff would make the regular Tiefling an excellent choice.

What does Mechanatrix buy me, besides Outsider type?

Heavy armor prof, electricity healing and more useful stat bonuses for a gish(+2 int +2 con -2 dex -2 cha).

FMArthur
2011-02-11, 10:05 AM
Archivists do indeed gish quite well and can imitate arcane casters if you can find any Cleric domain spells you want without too much hassle (which is supposed to be as easy as looking for a magic shop in a sufficiently-sized city, but may not be since so many DMs apparently don't do the "Magic Mart" thing). Knowledge Devotion is a must for melee Archivists. And obviously Divine Power.

But in order to buff up for combat like a Cleric can, Turn Undead is very important as part of the Divine Metamagic routine (usually with Persistent Spell). You can get it through Sacred Exorcist. You don't get those nifty domain granted powers, but it takes considerably more work for a Cleric to get his domain-casting up to an Archivist's level than it takes for an Archivist to acquire Turn Undead. And domain casting is paramount to a divine caster trying to emulate arcane spellcasters. The Druid list is also good for this.

AdalKar
2011-02-11, 10:10 AM
For the longtime buffs instead of mage armor I'd take Luminous Armor (BoED,p.102) and the greater version of it, especially if you take levels in Abjurant Champion (because they are Abjuration spells and get nice boni from the PrC). They are Sanctified spells, which every spell preparing class can use, so others can't assume you're arcane with these spells (maybe there are some other good ones for you) and it fits you're LG alignment if you're going to follow it a bit extreme. :smallbiggrin:
And the healing of the personal cost of 1d2 or 1d3 Str at the end of the duration shouldn't be too hard.

Maybe this helps a bit :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2011-02-11, 10:17 AM
List of solid buffs you'll want to use (do note that 10 min/lvl buffs become eminently usable in the teens, especially if you have Extend Spell):
- Greater Magic Weapon
- Mage Armor/Greater Luminous Armor [BoED]
- Greater Mighty Wallop [RotD]
- Create Magical Tattoo [SC]
- Animal's Stat
- Alter Self
- Arcane Sight
- Phantom Steed
- Heroism
- Polymorph-line (notably PAO and Shapechange for duration)
- Overland Flight
- Contingency/Instant Refuge [SC]
- Resist Energy/Energy Immunity [SC]
- Superior Resistance [SC]
- Mind Blank
- Moment of Prescience
- Foresight


In addition, there's the shorter duration spells that you can Quicken/w/e:
- Bite of the WereX [SC]
- Draconic Polymorph [Drac]
- Greater Invisibility
- Greater Mirror Image [PHBII]
- Greater Blink [SC]
- Wraithstrike [SC]
- Quickened True Strike
- Shield

And some channeling stuff I'm forgetting, at least. Mind, also stuff like Prismatic Spheres and Walls and such are convenient battle "buffs".

Of course, much of your output is PA in conjuction with To Hit enhancers, Arcane Strikes and all that good jazz.


I'd consider Swiftblade but if not, just standard Sacred Exorcist or EK build does fine. You can get up to 19 levels of casting by 20 while maintaining over 15 BAB. JPM should be another consideration; it does get Devoted Spirit which is a really nice school even if the class is otherwise very limited.

gbprime
2011-02-11, 10:26 AM
If you're decided on Lawful Good already, then Paladin is a good base.

Paladin 4 - Sorcerer 2 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Spellsword 1 - Eldritch Knight 8

You're using CHA for spellcasting and saving throws, and you have Turn Undead to power Devotion or Divine feats. You're missing 4 caster levels up front and 1 later, but your BAB (and therefore caster level) is 19. power it with Minor Shapeshift, Law Devotion, and Arcane Strike and you're ready to rock.

If you want more of a caster...

Battle Sorcerer 6 - Abjurant Champion 4 - Knight Phantom 10

You'll want a Bloodline feat to get your spells known back up, but you end up with BAB 18 and sorcerer 19 casting. You do have to spend a lot of feats up front on it, though, and use one of your spell slots on Phantom Steed.

Eldariel
2011-02-11, 10:29 AM
If you're decided on Lawful Good already, then Paladin is a good base.

Paladin 4 - Sorcerer 2 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Spellsword 1 - Eldritch Knight 8

You're using CHA for spellcasting and saving throws, and you have Turn Undead to power Devotion or Divine feats. You're missing 4 caster levels up front and 1 later, but your BAB (and therefore caster level) is 19. power it with Minor Shapeshift, Law Devotion, and Arcane Strike and you're ready to rock.

If you want more of a caster...

Battle Sorcerer 6 - Abjurant Champion 4 - Knight Phantom 10

You'll want a Bloodline feat to get your spells known back up, but you end up with BAB 18 and sorcerer 19 casting. You do have to spend a lot of feats up front on it, though, and use one of your spell slots on Phantom Steed.

Or just Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. 16 BAB, 18th level casting, Turning, Cha to stuff and so on. Don't see a reason to go Pally 4 nor Battle Sorcerer to be honest.

gbprime
2011-02-11, 10:37 AM
Because Paladin doesn't get turn undead until 4th? Or are you waiting until 12th level to get Turn Undead with Sacred Exorcist?

Eldariel
2011-02-11, 10:42 AM
Because Paladin doesn't get turn undead until 4th? Or are you waiting until 12th level to get Turn Undead with Sacred Exorcist?

Level 9-10; but yeah, the idea is to take 'em for free with Sacred Exorcist. Pally 4 is just painfully slow to develop any spellcasting ability whatsoever especially since you want midlevel slots for Quickens and stuff.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-11, 10:53 AM
If you're decided on Lawful Good already, then Paladin is a good base.

Paladin 4 - Sorcerer 2 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Spellsword 1 - Eldritch Knight 8

You're using CHA for spellcasting and saving throws, and you have Turn Undead to power Devotion or Divine feats. You're missing 4 caster levels up front and 1 later, but your BAB (and therefore caster level) is 19. power it with Minor Shapeshift, Law Devotion, and Arcane Strike and you're ready to rock.

Eh, missing five caster levels is pretty harsh. I don't get the Paladin 4, though. DMM seems irrelevant, due to the lack of divine casting, and I don't see the paladin portion contributing much to the build outside of BaB. There's a few fun class abilities sure, but it takes a lot of that to compensate for the lost caster levels.

Plus, with sorc, you're a level behind on spells. You end up with only 7th level spells...seems rough.

Eldariel
2011-02-11, 10:55 AM
Eh, missing five caster levels is pretty harsh. I don't get the Paladin 4, though. DMM seems irrelevant, due to the lack of divine casting, and I don't see the paladin portion contributing much to the build outside of BaB. There's a few fun class abilities sure, but it takes a lot of that to compensate for the lost caster levels.

Plus, with sorc, you're a level behind on spells. You end up with only 7th level spells...seems rough.

Or take Sacred Exorcist and eat the cake too.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-11, 11:28 AM
Depending on how much cheese you want, you could go with the Venerable Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. That trades its Sorcerer spellcasting for Wizard casting of equal level, which it casts at three levels higher than your character level, and you write your spells on your scales so there's no risk of losing a spellbook. You could go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1 (or SBS +2) and have 20th level spellcasting at level 20 with a +19 BAB and all the Swiftblade goodness.


A Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4 gets 9th level spells and +16 BAB at level 20. That can use Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your personal range buffs after you've cast them, so all-day Shield, Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Greater Mirror Image, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Displacement, Dragonsight, Draconic Might, Dragonskin, Draconic Polymorph, etc. is easy to achieve. Take the feat Invisible Spell and nobody will ever see your buffs, if you want to deny in-character that you're using them. Get a Hat of Anonymity (MIC) and NPCs will have a difficult time using Detect Magic or Arcane Sight to even see that you have spells active. An alternative start would be Human or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon +2 instead of Fighter 2/ Wizard 4, which gets equal BAB and spellcasting, slightly better HP, considerably better skills, and a +2 ability score boost.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-11, 11:58 AM
Bam. Looks like this is gonna be put into use sooner than I thought. Will be in a campaign starting at level 1...mostly core, though I am told that I'm pretty much ok to use whatever I want. Of course, since the others are going to be mostly stuck with core, I don't want to abuse this.

Definitely going with the appearance of being a pally. Lawful Good and everything. Fighter/wiz/spellsword/abj champ might be good.

Invisible Spell is a definite yes. I love that MM. I might also stick with human due mainly to campaign issues(I'd rather not be the hated freak. Actually being able to spend WBL is a plus). That does make human paragon rather tempting, IMO. It's core, solid without being broken, and qualifies me for Abj champ without even needing fighter.

Now, was Abj Champ arcane only? Cause if not, archivist is a distinct possibility.

nhbdy
2011-02-11, 02:29 PM
It's been a while since I made a gish, but I did find a fairly good reference, it doesn't state builds as much as possibilities (my favorite way to build anyway) might be worth looking into:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868042/Character_Build_Spotlight:_Gish

As for actual build possibilities, spellsword was a fun one level dip as I remember, and you simply can't go wrong with abjurant champion, sacred exorcist+DMM=cheeze, but so is anything using DMM can be fun if playing with other optimizers. Personally I take 1-2 levels of fighter in my builds, but I can see how there could be other starts, and rage mage is always a choice, but doesn't seem to fit.

tl;dr
many ways to do it, helpful reference (not builds) in link

Tyndmyr
2011-02-11, 03:58 PM
Helpful reference = better than builds.

I've got a pretty decent fleshed out skeleton, now.

Now, if only I could recall the PrC that progressed spellcasting for the first level, and granted proficiency with martial weapons. I know it exists, and has Dragon in it's name. I'll have to dig a bit.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-11, 04:50 PM
Dragonslayer, in the Draconomicon, requires BAB +5, Dodge, and Iron Will. See if your DM can include a visit to the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel prior to the level you want to gain that prestige class. Otherwise, if the party has a few months of in-game downtime, you can pay 3,000 gp and just say that's what your character did. That will get you Iron Will without having to spend a feat on it.

nhbdy
2011-02-11, 05:06 PM
Dragonslayer, in the Draconomicon, requires BAB +5, Dodge, and Iron Will. See if your DM can include a visit to the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel prior to the level you want to gain that prestige class. Otherwise, if the party has a few months of in-game downtime, you can pay 3,000 gp and just say that's what your character did. That will get you Iron Will without having to spend a feat on it.

hmm, dragon slayer is a bit steep to shoot for right off the bat, with two levels in fighter (which hurts spellcasting levels quite a bit) that puts you at six levels in wizard to meet the BAB, you'd have to hit another prc first...

EDIT:
disregard the above statement, I have realized how stupid it was, one should not type on forums when sleep deprived, my apologies

Tyndmyr
2011-02-11, 06:00 PM
Dragonslayer, in the Draconomicon, requires BAB +5, Dodge, and Iron Will. See if your DM can include a visit to the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel prior to the level you want to gain that prestige class. Otherwise, if the party has a few months of in-game downtime, you can pay 3,000 gp and just say that's what your character did. That will get you Iron Will without having to spend a feat on it.

I've used that method before...Dodge is also a crappy prereq unfortunately, even if the alternative dodges are trolled through. That together with +5 Bab means it's likely a later choice. Getting through the early levels without taking a bath on either CL or BaB is key, it appears.

Im looking at something like wizard 2/Human Paragon 3 to start off with atm. Loses two Bab, but only loses 1 CL, and gets you to the level at which PrCs start opening up. The fringe bennies of paragon are also decent. Another +2 str would compensate for a lost BaB, for instance.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-11, 06:05 PM
It's been a few years since I've played 3.5, but I distinctly remember Knight Phantom from Five Nations being a solid choice for Gishing.

nhbdy
2011-02-11, 08:36 PM
I've used that method before...Dodge is also a crappy prereq unfortunately, even if the alternative dodges are trolled through. That together with +5 Bab means it's likely a later choice. Getting through the early levels without taking a bath on either CL or BaB is key, it appears.

Im looking at something like wizard 2/Human Paragon 3 to start off with atm. Loses two Bab, but only loses 1 CL, and gets you to the level at which PrCs start opening up. The fringe bennies of paragon are also decent. Another +2 str would compensate for a lost BaB, for instance.

So, we are looking at BAB +3 and Cl 4 at level 5? well the bonus feat helps if you want to go for the dragonslayer approach, but we ARE remarkably close to abjurant champion, only needing +2 more BAB (assuming you spend feats correctly), also potentially close to sacred exorcist and it's shenanigans... If you can pick up martial weapon proficiency somewhere, eldritch knight (personally one of my favorites) and dragonslayer are pretty much wide open, but it does appear that you would need more wizard levels to gain the BAB without losing the caster levels...

LordBlades
2011-02-12, 08:55 AM
You might want to take a look at the feat Arcane Disciple. War Domain has Divine Power, which helps with any BAB problems, while Competition Domain has both Divine Power and Righteous Might.

If you find a way to persist Divine Power, you can actually play a Gish without too many levels in Gish classes.

The Gish in my current group is currently something like Mechanatrix Focused Transmuter 3/ Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2. No CL loss (LA buyoff was allowed), persisted Polymorph, Divine Power, Righteous Might and other lesser buffs.