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JohnDaBarr
2011-02-11, 10:21 AM
ok ppl i found a spell that technically could be used as a hand cannon but still not sure how would that be implemented in DnD 3.5

Spell Launch Item(MoF p105) Hurls Fine-sized item (10
pounds or less) up to 400 + 40 per level. Duration instantaneous. No spell resistance and no saving throw.
''You cause a fine item at great speed to the target creature or space. The spell protects the item from breaking untill it hits the target. This spell is normally used for launching dangerous items like flask of acid etc....''

ok I get the picture, you can snipe the damn vampire with a flask of holy water, great lol.... But the thing im interested is more simple if you have a object (10 pound rock) and ''great speed'' (I'm assuming something of near sonic speed) sooo... you get a magic hand railgun!!

mass+great speed= how many d4,d6 or d8

really like to know if there is something witch says if you get hit by this mass and with speed of this you get dmg of this.

have a nice day XD

Dragon Elite
2011-02-11, 10:43 AM
It would be akin to falling at about 2-5x as fast as terminal velocity. I'd say 1d4 per 10 feet traveled? Maybe 1d6? Also, it's alway better to sue this with a bag filled with rocks. Then, it could be ruled as an area effect, needing no to-hit roll.

Amnestic
2011-02-11, 10:47 AM
I'd say 1d4 per 10 feet traveled? Maybe 1d6?

So at first level and max range, you're looking at doing 40d4/d6.

Balance! :smalltongue:

Cyrion
2011-02-11, 10:47 AM
What you're effectively doing is using a spell to make a sling. Slings normally do 1d4 damage, but you're using a substantially heavier object. I'd probably count it as 2 size categories larger becasue of the weight, which would make it do 1d8 damage, but not give it a Strength bonus to damage.

D&D usually doesn't worry about the specific physics of mass and velocity translating to dice of damage. Using 1d8 as your damage puts the spell on par with a lesser orb spell for damage, which is probably about right for a 1st level spell.

subject42
2011-02-11, 11:03 AM
There's a similar spell in the spell compendium called "Launch Bolt" that causes all sorts of arguments about how it can work.

As far as I can tell, you can use it to launch any bolt that you're strong enough to lift.

dextercorvia
2011-02-11, 11:07 AM
All the spell does is remove range penalties. You are still throwing an inappropriately sized improvised weapon that you aren't proficient with. That is a minimum of -10 to attack, and about 1d8 damage.

I'm not sure how to calculate weapon weights after large, but a normal medium rock wouldn't weight more than 1/2 lb (sling bullet). So a 1lb rock would be for a large creature, if you up that 1 more time to huge it might jump back to normal physics for 8lbs. That would give you a -4 size penalty and a -4 improvised weapon penalty and a -4 nonproficiency penalty. That would be a -12 to hit, and the thing might do as much as 1d10 if the DM is feeling generous.

JohnDaBarr
2011-02-11, 11:18 AM
All the spell does is remove range penalties. You are still throwing an inappropriately sized improvised weapon that you aren't proficient with. That is a minimum of -10 to attack, and about 1d8 damage.

I'm not sure how to calculate weapon weights after large, but a normal medium rock wouldn't weight more than 1/2 lb (sling bullet). So a 1lb rock would be for a large creature, if you up that 1 more time to huge it might jump back to normal physics for 8lbs. That would give you a -4 size penalty and a -4 improvised weapon penalty and a -4 nonproficiency penalty. That would be a -12 to hit, and the thing might do as much as 1d10 if the DM is feeling generous.

yeah true but as someone before mentioned if you use a bag of small rock you can the use area of effect witch doesn't require a hit roll and besides I dont see any hit rolls requirements in the spell description

Kobold Esq
2011-02-11, 11:18 AM
Huge complicated messes occur when you allow spells to do things beyond what they explicitly say they can do.

dextercorvia
2011-02-11, 11:27 AM
yeah true but as someone before mentioned if you use a bag of small rock you can the use area of effect witch doesn't require a hit roll and besides I dont see any hit rolls requirements in the spell description

It was updated in the Spell Compendium, and that is the version I am reading. It actually says, "You can use this spell to make an attack with a splash weapon. If you do so, you must make an attack roll as normal, but you suffere no penalties for range."

I'm being generous an allowing the spell to launch something it doesn't specifically have rules for. If you don't make an attack roll, you don't get to hit stuff. Even for a splash weapon, you have to hit the square.

Edit: the guy who said a bag of rocks, also suggested 1d4 per 10 feet traveled. There are a lot of problems with both suggestions.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-11, 11:33 AM
If you want to allow it to be used to make an attack, I would say it would throw just as hard as a normal person could throw an object like a splash weapon. The only thing changed is range.

Improvised weapon, no range increment, 1d6 damage. It *is* only a level 1 spell.

Jay R
2011-02-11, 11:37 AM
I haven't read that spell (I'm playing 2E). But it sounds like an attempt to make magic do something the spell doesn't do.

All attempts to use physics to explain why it should do more than a 1st level spell does miss the point that the laws of physics don't work. In a world with flying gargoyles, there's no cube-square law. If there are fireballs, there's no conservation of energy.

So ignore the speed it takes to get there; it hits with the same force it would hit if the wizard threw it -- it just went further.

I would rule that the actual throwing of the thing does no damage -- it's a delivery system. It hits with the force of a dodgeball -- enough to be annoying, and to break glass releasing the substance that is the actual attack, but not to do any damage with the impact itself.

If you want a magic missile, cast Magic Missile.

JohnDaBarr
2011-02-11, 11:42 AM
yes everything is as you said it man

but im pretty disappointed when the game gives you solid and fair dmg if you are a big guy who just hit the ground after a 300 feet fall but if you are hit with an object thats traveling with sonic speed is at best d8

btw you can make the range penalties disappear with some easy spells like Snipe shot that allows you to make a sneak attack with out a range penalty and if you use something you have proficiency like a spear....

Keld Denar
2011-02-11, 12:24 PM
There are lots of wierd things...you can actually make an archer who can shoot arrows faster than LIGHT ITSELF, but they still only deal 1d8 damage at the end of their travel.

D&D is an abstraction. It's intended to model real life, within a certain invisible fence boundary of game balance. If you really had a 1st level spell that could deal 40d6 damage on demand, why would ANYONE ever cast anything else?

Typewriter
2011-02-11, 12:26 PM
I had a DM who let me use this spell on items that I had cast reduce object on, and I could use the command word to restore it to full size as a free action. It was my airships artillery :P

Akal Saris
2011-02-11, 12:36 PM
Another nice use of this spell is to launch contact and inhaled poisons from quite far away.

JohnDaBarr
2011-02-11, 12:37 PM
well thats why its caled abusing the spells and btw im not interested on making 40d6 dmg with lvl 1 spell for obvious reasons (kiling the fun of the game lol)
im only interested how far is ok to go with the ''thinkig out of the box'' and when is to much

lol even on later lvl's you can use this spell to cast a pebble imbued with a maximized, empoverd, delayed, twin cast fireball XD over 200-300 feet distance
XD

subject42
2011-02-11, 12:38 PM
Another nice use of this spell is to launch contact and inhaled poisons from quite far away.

Not to mention a burlap sack full of fire seeds.

dextercorvia
2011-02-11, 12:51 PM
lol even on later lvl's you can use this spell to cast a pebble imbued with a maximized, empoverd, delayed, twin cast fireball XD over 200-300 feet distance
XD

Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Oh look, you can already do that.

JohnDaBarr
2011-02-11, 01:14 PM
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Oh look, you can already do that.

really lol
sry didnt have the opportunity to play epic lvl games yet so im a little off in that subject
still you can effectively use that spell for a LOT of things

Jay R
2011-02-11, 09:37 PM
yes everything is as you said it man

but im pretty disappointed when the game gives you solid and fair dmg if you are a big guy who just hit the ground after a 300 feet fall but if you are hit with an object thats traveling with sonic speed is at best d8.

Again, I don't play this game, but if that spell existed in my game I would rule that it distorts space. The stone didn't travel 400 feet at supersonic speed; for an instant the distance was only twenty feet (but only for the object with that spell on it).

Distorting distance is no weirder that distorting energy with a Lightning Bolt, or distorting gravity with a Flight spell. Every spell is a violation of some physical law.

The rules of physics work fine when you're falling; but get messed up when somebody's deliberately messing them up.

gbprime
2011-02-11, 10:01 PM
Meh, it's a first level spell. First level spells can do at most 5 dice of damage at either caster level 5 or caster level 10. Whatever you want to do with it is fine, so long as it fits in that rule.

Now if you're using it to launch something ELSE that does epic damage, that's different. Like the Boom Box...

Small box with 20 scraps of parchment, each with Explosive Runes. on the box is a Glyph of Warding, set to go off in the presence of... whatever you're slinging the box at. Box arrives, glyph sets off a Dispel Ward at caster level 1. Dispel Ward fails to remove 19 out of 20 Explosive Runes, which means 19 Runes detonate.

Boom Box.

JohnDaBarr
2011-02-12, 06:20 AM
Small box with 20 scraps of parchment, each with Explosive Runes. on the box is a Glyph of Warding, set to go off in the presence of... whatever you're slinging the box at. Box arrives, glyph sets off a Dispel Ward at caster level 1. Dispel Ward fails to remove 19 out of 20 Explosive Runes, which means 19 Runes detonate.

Boom Box.

hahaha thats epic and useful and a potential one shot kill on everything you just increase the number of runes lol

btw do you get any range and/or improvised weapon penalties using this spell??

grimbold
2011-02-12, 06:42 AM
my advice would be to give it 1d6 per 10 feet but cap it out at 3d6 to maintain balance

nedz
2011-02-12, 08:13 AM
Erm, its a cantrip.
So max damage d3 ?

candycorn
2011-02-12, 10:06 AM
Erm, its a cantrip.
So max damage d3 ?

The cantrip is more of a delivery method, not a damage method. It replaces a solid throwing arm.

That said... the OP incorrectly assumed near sonic speed.

Bear in mind: A crossbow bolt can be described as moving at "great speed", even though it is only traveling at 150 mph (67 meters per second at launch), not even 25% of the speed of sound. Such a bolt would do 1d10 damage, for the heaviest standard bolt.

Heck, a horse can be described as moving at great speed, even though the world record for horse speed is 55 mph.