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subject42
2011-02-11, 11:05 AM
I just noticed the spell "Knight's Move" in the Spell Compendium. It looks absolutely phenomenal. It gives you swift action teleportation, but only if you end up flanking an enemy.

Has anyone used it in a game situation? I'm debating using it to build a puzzle monster encounter

dextercorvia
2011-02-11, 11:11 AM
It's a nice spell for Melee without Pounce or Travel Devotion, but it requires a pretty steep investment for those who need it the most. Great for a Sacred Fist build though.

Edit: or for a UMD wand user.

Psyren
2011-02-11, 11:11 AM
Wow, a Transmutation (Teleportation) spell. I haven't seen one of those in eons.

And yeah, it's pretty cool if you're a gish - swift action teleportation always is, especially at such a low level.

big teej
2011-02-11, 11:19 AM
why is it called "knight's move"?

Knights arn't allowed to take advantage of flanking bonuses (though they still confer it to their allies)

Cespenar
2011-02-11, 11:22 AM
why is it called "knight's move"?

Knights arn't allowed to take advantage of flanking bonuses (though they still confer it to their allies)

Are you familiar with chess?

Psyren
2011-02-11, 11:23 AM
why is it called "knight's move"?

Knights arn't allowed to take advantage of flanking bonuses (though they still confer it to their allies)

Actually, Spell Compendium came out before PHB2, so they likely weren't even considering that Knight when they made the spell.

(Plus, the fact that it's a Transmutation Teleport leads me to believe the spell is even older than 3.5.)

As for the name, it's a reference to the Knight piece in chess - the only one that can jump over obstacles (i.e. other pieces) to optimally position itself and threaten the enemy. This is translated into D&D via the short-range teleportation and flanking.

Cog
2011-02-11, 11:24 AM
why is it called "knight's move"?

Knights arn't allowed to take advantage of flanking bonuses (though they still confer it to their allies)
It's named after the Chess knight. PHB II came out after SC, as I recall.

grarrrg
2011-02-11, 12:07 PM
I just noticed the spell "Knight's Move" in the Spell Compendium. It looks absolutely phenomenal. It gives you swift action teleportation, but only if you move 2 spaces forward, and 1 space over from where you started.


Fixed that for you :smallcool:

Keld Denar
2011-02-11, 12:12 PM
Wow, a Transmutation (Teleportation) spell. I haven't seen one of those in eons.

Lightning Leap, in PHBII, IIRC, is another Transmutation (Teleportation) spell. I found it when I was looking for teleports for my Suel Arcanamach build because SA's can't learn Conjourations.

One thing to note about this spell is the range is dependant on CL. As a full blooded paladin, your CL is gonna be kinda low, likewise if you are using it from a wand. What it is REALLY good for, however, is melee Archivists. Throw on a little Divine Power, teleport in, and go to town!

Person_Man
2011-02-11, 12:19 PM
I haven't used it, due to the existence of Travel Devotion, Protective Imposition, Hustle, Lion's Charge, and the numerous other ways to get Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). But it's a fairly good an relatively low cost option, especially for Clerics or wand wielders.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 12:20 PM
Actually, Spell Compendium came out before PHB2, so they likely weren't even considering that Knight when they made the spell.

It did? :smallconfused:
I could swear PHB2 was rather early in 3.5

Psyren
2011-02-11, 12:26 PM
It did? :smallconfused:
I could swear PHB2 was rather early in 3.5

SpC: 2005
PHB2: 2006

It does make sense too - If PHB2 had been first, then (a) some of its spells would have made it into SpC, and (b) they would have mentioned the Beguiler in the opening blurb where they discussed adding spells to other classes (like the Warmage.)

(Also, Celerity might have actually made it onto the Celerity Domain :smallfrown:)

subject42
2011-02-11, 01:32 PM
Lightning Leap, in PHBII, IIRC, is another Transmutation (Teleportation) spell. I found it when I was looking for teleports for my Suel Arcanamach build because SA's can't learn Conjourations.

Is there a list of spells like this anywhere: ones that don't fit in their "expected" schools?

Coidzor
2011-02-11, 01:55 PM
Is there a list of spells like this anywhere: ones that don't fit in their "expected" schools?

Occasionally people try to start one, but I don't think there's a completed listing online.

Psyren
2011-02-11, 02:37 PM
Is there a list of spells like this anywhere: ones that don't fit in their "expected" schools?

It's not that egregious - as V points out here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html), teleportation effects used to fall under Transmutation in 3.0.

FMArthur
2011-02-11, 03:16 PM
Oh wow. I guess I glossed over the fact that Vaarsuvius banned Conjuration the first time I read this strip, since I didn't know that. Didn't know people still built half-Wizards back then. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2011-02-11, 03:39 PM
Oh wow. I guess I glossed over the fact that Vaarsuvius banned Conjuration the first time I read this strip, since I didn't know that. Didn't know people still built half-Wizards back then. :smalltongue:

The Geekery thread has his banned schools as most likely being Conjuration and Necromancy. He's used Illusions (Invisibility, Veil), Evocations (numerous), Enchantments (Suggestion, Charm Monster), Transmutations (numerous), and Abjurations (Dispel Magic).

Interesting glitch though - in the prequel bonus strips for Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, the Giant had him cast Stinking Cloud on some goblins (resulting in a lethal fart joke) - but SC is a Conjuration spell.

Pechvarry
2011-02-11, 05:57 PM
Has anyone used it in a game situation?

Yeah, I once used it from just outside a Titan's reach to avoid a lethal AoO. Nice if you don't have Sword of the Arcane Order feat for benign transposition.

big teej
2011-02-14, 12:49 AM
Are you familiar with chess?

fair point, didn't even cross my mind.

Andion Isurand
2011-02-14, 01:13 AM
Vaar could always take the three feats from LoEF that effectively restore a previously banned school to a wizard's casting abilities.

Spell Reprieve
Item Reprieve
Arcane Transfiguration

cupkeyk
2011-02-14, 01:51 AM
Wow, its gotten this far and nobody has mentioned it yet: It spell is named after its creator the cleric/paladin turned goddess (in the forgotten realms campaign setting) Red Knight. She wore, as a mortal, red lacquered full plate. So she was called the Red Knight. She can benefit from flanking because she's a cleric/paladin goddess, not a knight.

MeeposFire
2011-02-14, 02:00 AM
It did? :smallconfused:
I could swear PHB2 was rather early in 3.5

PHB2 was actually relatively late. It came after the first round of completes. I think it is the start of the later half of 3.5.

Obviously I did not pay much to V in the comic since I did not realize she specialized in a certain school woops.

Psyren
2011-02-14, 02:13 AM
Wow, its gotten this far and nobody has mentioned it yet: It spell is named after its creator the cleric/paladin turned goddess (in the forgotten realms campaign setting) Red Knight. She wore, as a mortal, red lacquered full plate. So she was called the Red Knight. She can benefit from flanking because she's a cleric/paladin goddess, not a knight.

SHE is named after the chess knight, actually. It's even her symbol:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070127183420/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/1/17/Red-Knight_symbol.jpg/160px-Red-Knight_symbol.jpg

"The Red Knight" is not her real name; she doesn't allow any of the other gods (except Tempus) to know who she really is, because making her identity known would be an avenue for exploitation. I don't know if the Spellplague revealed anything about her, and I don't think she's still around in 4e (though I could be wrong.)

MeeposFire
2011-02-14, 02:37 AM
SHE is named after the chess knight, actually. It's even her symbol:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070127183420/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/1/17/Red-Knight_symbol.jpg/160px-Red-Knight_symbol.jpg

"The Red Knight" is not her real name; she doesn't allow any of the other gods (except Tempus) to know who she really is, because making her identity known would be an avenue for exploitation. I don't know if the Spellplague revealed anything about her, and I don't think she's still around in 4e (though I could be wrong.)

She is probably one of the exarchs or whatever for another god. Many of the old minor gods still exist they just serve larger more powerful gods rather than being seperate.

Psyren
2011-02-14, 02:41 AM
She is probably one of the exarchs or whatever for another god. Many of the old minor gods still exist they just serve larger more powerful gods rather than being seperate.

Yeah that makes sense. It's pretty much the role she had before, plus Tempus is still around so he'd need some underlings.

Teron
2011-02-14, 02:49 AM
In a Dragon article about the Red Knight predating the Spell Compendium, knight's move was actually an L-shaped teleport. I assume the SC writers changed it because it messes with suspension of disbelief when you're trying to pretend the world isn't literally laid out on a grid.

ffone
2011-02-14, 02:57 AM
Wow, its gotten this far and nobody has mentioned it yet: It spell is named after its creator the cleric/paladin turned goddess (in the forgotten realms campaign setting) Red Knight. She wore, as a mortal, red lacquered full plate. So she was called the Red Knight. She can benefit from flanking because she's a cleric/paladin goddess, not a knight.

I would have!

The original version of the spell was form a wizards.com series, "Magic books of Faerun" (my google-fu fails me at the moment, or the series is no longer online) on divine spells for various Faerun deities. The Red Knight's article had Knight's Move, Analyze Opponent (self-explanatory), and Checkmate's Light (IIRC similar to Holy Sword, but Lawful rather than Good).

I had a character who used this spell from an item - in fact the spell gave me the idea to use the Red Knight as the deity my rogue PC worshipped; it seemed a nice hook for a Lawful Good rogue (obviously sneak attackers like flanking).

She used items for the spell - but I later abandoned the spell itself, since the Anklet of Translocation is much cheaper (1400 gp for 2/day 10' teleport, no flanking restriction). I didn't mind teh flanking restriction of Knight's Move, but it's 5' per TWO caster levels, so you need 4th to even go 10'! a 2/day wonderous item of that would cost, under the guidelines, 720 gp x 2 x 4, or about 4x the price of the anklet. Of course a chambered wand may still be worth it if your DM won't let you have multiple copies of the anklet (or more charges per day at scaled-up pricing) or you think your campaign won't last long enough for that to be more cost effective.

But if you have a TWF rogue and can afford it, chambering wands of this and Lion's Charge will often let you full attack in most of the situations where you'd quality for sneak attack anyway (charging flat-footed foes at the start of the encounter, and then flanking them later). If, that is, for some reason you don't feel like the obligatory 1-level dip(s) of Pouncebarian or Travel Devotion cleric instead: like a DM who uses multiclass XP penalties, or everyone else in your party is a pouncebarian or DMM travel-cleric and you would feel bashful doing the same.

jiriku
2011-02-14, 03:07 AM
In practice, I've found that in small parties it can be extremely difficult to use. You need to a) be within the extremely short range of the spell, b) have a fellow PC already in a position to complete a flank for your teleport to qualify, c) be unable or unwilling to simply walk over to the target.

Sometimes I used it to fair effect, but more often either I was too far away, I couldn't find a flanking partner, or simply didn't need it because normal movement got me to where I needed to be.

ffone
2011-02-14, 03:12 AM
In practice, I've found that in small parties it can be extremely difficult to use. You need to a) be within the extremely short range of the spell, b) have a fellow PC already in a position to complete a flank for your teleport to qualify, c) be unable or unwilling to simply walk over to the target.

Sometimes I used it to fair effect, but more often either I was too far away, I couldn't find a flanking partner, or simply didn't need it because normal movement got me to where I needed to be.

Agreed. It's a really neat idea for a spell, but the 5' per two caster levels is just kinda short. At the min caster level of 3rd, it's just another 5' step. The ideal scenario would be a cleric-rogue type character (someone who can get the CL high but has a big reason to flank) but wizard-rogues are so much more well supported otherwise. There are just so many other options on Person Man's awesome free-move/pounce list that are better.

cupkeyk
2011-02-14, 03:39 AM
SHE is named after the chess knight, actually. It's even her symbol:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070127183420/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/1/17/Red-Knight_symbol.jpg/160px-Red-Knight_symbol.jpg

"The Red Knight" is not her real name; she doesn't allow any of the other gods (except Tempus) to know who she really is, because making her identity known would be an avenue for exploitation. I don't know if the Spellplague revealed anything about her, and I don't think she's still around in 4e (though I could be wrong.)

Knights tilting don't move like that. That peice was originally named the horse in Chaturanga. Persian cavalry really move like that.

That being said she is named after the Chess piece, not the PH2 class; the chess piece is an unfortunate mistranslation from Persian to English. She is thereby more correctly RED HORSE (Extra strong... 'dre ito ang tama!)

Worira
2011-02-14, 03:46 AM
Yeah, and bishops can walk in a straight line. Your point?

cupkeyk
2011-02-14, 03:56 AM
Because bishops as chess pieces are also a misnomer.

Someone was asking why it was called a knight. i simply wanted to point out that the spell was named after a goddess, not a knight. the goddess was named after a chess peice that had nothing to do with knights.

Psyren
2011-02-14, 08:38 AM
Because bishops as chess pieces are also a misnomer.

Someone was asking why it was called a knight. i simply wanted to point out that the spell was named after a goddess, not a knight. the goddess was named after a chess peice that had nothing to do with knights.

Whatever historical flub caused the naming disconnect, the fact remains that the piece has been known as a "Knight" for over a millennium, and that's what both the spell and the goddess are based on. You can't seriously claim that the spell is named solely after her - if it were, it would be on the list of other spells from Faerun at the beginning of SpC, like Elminster's Evasion and Favor of Ilmater.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-14, 09:00 AM
Whatever historical flub caused the naming disconnect, the fact remains that the piece has been known as a "Knight" for over a millennium, and that's what both the spell and the goddess are based on. You can't seriously claim that the spell is named solely after her - if it were, it would be on the list of other spells from Faerun at the beginning of SpC, like Elminster's Evasion and Favor of Ilmater.

And they would have given it a more generic name, like "Horseman's Move." :smallamused:

John Campbell
2011-02-14, 12:01 PM
Yeah, and bishops can walk in a straight line. Your point?
IIRC, the bishop was originally the ship. It moves diagonally because it's tacking against the wind.

cupkeyk
2011-02-14, 06:38 PM
OVER A MILLENIUM!

The western civilization has not lasted that long. It's just been 300 years, so its recent. And concidering that DnD is has medieval leavings, it's very very recent.

And I guess that list in SpC is lacking because as someone mentioned it was first printed in a Dragon Article for the Red Knight.

jiriku
2011-02-15, 10:21 AM
Interesting trivia:

Western civilization traces its roots to pre-Christian Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem, circa 500 A.D.

In Western chess, the bishop was so named because the points on the top of the piece resembled a bishop's hat. Previously, the piece represented an elephant.

Pechvarry
2011-02-15, 10:54 AM
Seriously? This keeps coming up on my subscribed because people are trying to discern if it's better to say "a goddess named after a chess piece" vs "named after a chess piece?"

This spell came out before Knights and their silly restriction at not gaining flanking bonuses - not that it matters, if Knights could use this spell, they still would to grant others flanking - because Paladin was the proverbial Knight archetype first. It would be awesomer if it didn't only gain 5' of distance for every four Paladin levels.

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-15, 11:05 AM
Interesting glitch though - in the prequel bonus strips for Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, the Giant had him cast Stinking Cloud on some goblins (resulting in a lethal fart joke) - but SC is a Conjuration spell.

Depends how far back that prequal goes; the spell was an Evocation spell back in 2e [i'm not sure about 3.0]:smallbiggrin:

[before you throw things at me, it's been demonstrable that the old folks in the setting remember when the world ran on 1e rules]

Psyren
2011-02-15, 11:12 AM
Depends how far back that prequal goes; the spell was an Evocation spell back in 2e [i'm not sure about 3.0]:smallbiggrin:


It's right outside the dungeon, while they were still 3.0 (before being updated to 3.5 in strip 1.) Chronologically it would take place between Strip 1 and OtOoPCs.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 03:15 PM
OVER A MILLENIUM!

The western civilization has not lasted that long. It's just been 300 years, so its recent. And concidering that DnD is has medieval leavings, it's very very recent.

Chess is a much older game than that. The history of chess. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#History)

cupkeyk
2011-02-15, 06:56 PM
Lolz, yeah I was the one that mentioned that its Persian and that the Horse is not a Knight.

I was referring to western civilization being younger than chess and chess in western civilization is only 300 years old.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 07:43 PM
Ah, my mistake.

Psyren
2011-02-15, 07:53 PM
I was referring to western civilization being younger than chess and chess in western civilization is only 300 years old.

Which is far older than the Forgotten Realms, no?

cupkeyk
2011-02-15, 09:36 PM
Definitely. FR is like... 40 years old? And not well researched either. The developers can't even agree on stuff. So yeah, they are excused such stuff.

ffone
2011-02-16, 03:21 AM
Red Knight sounds better than Red Horse, especially for a female deity. I imagine Ed Greenwood or whomever cared more about that than the history of chess (and Faerun's need not match Earth's). Also RK better connotes her portfolio (battle strategy) than RH would (a horse goddess, surely) even if the chess meaning is not noticed.