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Apophis775
2011-02-11, 04:18 PM
How does that effect skill-points?

For example, if i had a -2 bonus, and i was a fighter, it would be 2+ -2 * 4

But that also means, each level i get 2+ -2 and never gain skillpoints...


So, does the negative just count as a 0 or a 1?

Mastikator
2011-02-11, 04:19 PM
You always get at least 1 per level, no matter what.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-11, 04:21 PM
You always get at least 1 per level, no matter what.

And, consequently, a minimum of 4 at first level.

Also, a negative Int modifier does affect the Human Bonus.

So if you had an Int modifier of -2 and were a Human Fighter, you would still only get 1 skill point per level.

Mordokai
2011-02-11, 04:21 PM
You always get at least one skill point per level, even if your intelligence score is low enough to otherwise drop the number of your skill points to zero.

PHB states as much, but I can't find the passage on srd at the moment.

Apophis775
2011-02-11, 04:22 PM
So, if i had a -2 bonus and i was a fighter, i would get 1 skillpoint per level then?

Kobold Esq
2011-02-11, 04:26 PM
So, if i had a -2 bonus and i was a fighter, i would get 1 skillpoint per level then?

Yes. Just like negative con and hp per level

Starbuck_II
2011-02-11, 04:50 PM
Class that get few skill points are the best ones to do a negative Int mod; you lose the least.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-11, 04:54 PM
Just to clarify, you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. Therefore, a Human Fighter with a -2 Int modifier could still get two skill points/level. Apply the -2 penalty first, it cannot reduce your skill points/level below 1, then add your Human bonus afterward and it goes back up to 2.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-11, 04:59 PM
Just to clarify, you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. Therefore, a Human Fighter with a -2 Int modifier could still get two skill points/level. Apply the -2 penalty first, it cannot reduce your skill points/level below 1, then add your Human bonus afterward and it goes back up to 2.

Uh, no... since the "minimum 1 skill point" clause is not a bonus or penalty it is applied last.

Mordokai
2011-02-11, 05:02 PM
Just to clarify, you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. Therefore, a Human Fighter with a -2 Int modifier could still get two skill points/level. Apply the -2 penalty first, it cannot reduce your skill points/level below 1, then add your Human bonus afterward and it goes back up to 2.

No offence, but if I was DM and you came up with an idea like that you'd get a face full of DMG.

Kylarra
2011-02-11, 05:05 PM
You always get at least one skill point per level, even if your intelligence score is low enough to otherwise drop the number of your skill points to zero.

PHB states as much, but I can't find the passage on srd at the moment.Just for reference, it's here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt).


Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. Itís also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.

You apply your characterís Intelligence modifier to:

* The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game.
* The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.)
* Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability.

A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spellís level.

An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.

MeeposFire
2011-02-11, 05:05 PM
No offence, but if I was DM and you came up with an idea like that you'd get a face full of DMG.

Really over one skill point per level? I am not going to argue the RAW (I have a feeling if there isn't a clear cut rule on this it will be one of those hellfire warlock/strongheart vest questions) but in terms of balance making a character get his bonus from being human just so that he can get 2 skill points per level does not sound like the sort of abuse to get a DMG to the face.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-11, 05:09 PM
No offence, but if I was DM and you came up with an idea like that you'd get a face full of DMG.
That's a bit harsh, I think, but it likely would forestall a bunch of other self-serving twistings of the rules in the future.

Mordokai
2011-02-11, 05:12 PM
Really over one skill point per level? I am not going to argue the RAW (I have a feeling if there isn't a clear cut rule on this it will be one of those hellfire warlock/strongheart vest questions) but in terms of balance making a character get his bonus from being human just so that he can get 2 skill points per level does not sound like the sort of abuse to get a DMG to the face.

When somebody tries to pull trick like that that's a warning flag for me. A flag that says, it's not going to stop there.

Better get the idea out of the head in question at the very start :smallbiggrin:

Spartacus
2011-02-11, 06:31 PM
Maybe he wants to get into a PrC before epic levels?

Kobold Esq
2011-02-11, 06:52 PM
When somebody tries to pull trick like that that's a warning flag for me. A flag that says, it's not going to stop there.

Better get the idea out of the head in question at the very start :smallbiggrin:

What he said. It is a symptom of a likely larger issue which almost assuredly lead to an un-fun game.

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 07:25 PM
Just to clarify, you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. Therefore, a Human Fighter with a -2 Int modifier could still get two skill points/level. Apply the -2 penalty first, it cannot reduce your skill points/level below 1, then add your Human bonus afterward and it goes back up to 2.
FWIW, I agree with this reading of the rules, and it's how we always run it in our games.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-11, 07:33 PM
Me too.

Oh wait no, apparently I'm cheating.

Runestar
2011-02-11, 07:41 PM
What he said. It is a symptom of a likely larger issue which almost assuredly lead to an un-fun game.

How so? He is merely trying to get what is rightfully his (2 skill points/lv), not break the game.

No offense, but that seems like a very odd attitude for a DM to have. Just because a player tries to engage in a rules discussion with you means he is trying to abuse the rules and break the game? He is supposed to just sit quietly and accept your final decision, even though it may not be the right one? :smallconfused:

That said, here is what sean reynolds has to say on the matter (I know I read this somewhere).

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/PH_opinions_races.html

The relevant part.

Human Bonus Skill Points
Human bonus skill points should be applied after any Intelligence penalties to skills. Itís more advantageous to the character to do the +1 human point after the Intelligence penalty, because a human character with a big Intelligence penalty would reduce you to 1 skill point (the minimum), and then your human bonus would bring that up to 2.
If you applied the bonus point first, that would penalize the low-Int guys even more than they already are. Applying it first, in effect, negates the advantage that humans get for their bonus skill points. Itís a corner case, but an important point.

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 07:41 PM
Me too.

Oh wait no, apparently I'm cheating.
The sheer audacity of expecting two skill points a level on your 8 INT human character! I call munchkin! :smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2011-02-11, 07:41 PM
Changing from 1 skill point per level to 1 skill point per level is... not exactly "getting 1 extra skill point at each additional level".

Saint GoH
2011-02-11, 07:43 PM
Just to clarify, you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. Therefore, a Human Fighter with a -2 Int modifier could still get two skill points/level. Apply the -2 penalty first, it cannot reduce your skill points/level below 1, then add your Human bonus afterward and it goes back up to 2.

Thats because IIRC you DO apply penalties/bonuses in whichever order suits your purposes. Hence the time honored trick of lowering a stat to 3, having a racial drop it below 3, but because 3 is the minimum for PC's it automatically goes back up to 3 (this is at least, our reading).

Runestar
2011-02-11, 08:43 PM
Thats because IIRC you DO apply penalties/bonuses in whichever order suits your purposes. Hence the time honored trick of lowering a stat to 3, having a racial drop it below 3, but because 3 is the minimum for PC's it automatically goes back up to 3 (this is at least, our reading).

I am pretty sure only int is subject to the minimum of 3. An elf who rolled 3 con would end up having 1 con (no biggie if he subsequently goes necropolitan). :smallsmile:

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-11, 09:00 PM
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.

That could be read to mean "extra after whatever you get from your class, regardless of your Int score." So even a Human Fighter with 3 Int would get 5 skill points at 1st level, and 2 every level thereafter.

Either way, I don't think it's abusive and necessarily leads to insane powergaming.

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 09:43 PM
I am pretty sure only int is subject to the minimum of 3. An elf who rolled 3 con would end up having 1 con (no biggie if he subsequently goes necropolitan). :smallsmile:
You know, I didn't think this was the case, but I just checked the PHB (p.11), and you're correct - Int is the only score that can't go below 3 for a PC.

Roderick_BR
2011-02-12, 12:17 AM
You could argue that all bonus/penalties are added, and then a non-math effect is applied last, in this case, after all is calculated, of you still has zero or less skill points, you get one skill point.

HOWEVER, the human feature says you gain 1 (4 on 1st level) extra skill points as a racial bonus. It doesn't say that it's calculated with inteligence. So, you get class skill points, remove the int's penalty, move it to minimum 1, and THEN applies the human bonus.

Really, the DM and the group just need to agree on what is better, because I don't think that 1 skill point will really matter much, as most meleers' skill list just sucks anyway.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-12, 12:41 AM
Man could you imagine an 8 Int fighter who could train a horse AND ride it?

I mean that would just be ridiculous.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2011-02-12, 12:52 AM
Man could you imagine an 8 Int fighter who could train a horse AND ride it?

I mean that would just be ridiculous.

Next you are going to tell me that he can count past the number 9 and understands that he is just a meat-shield for the wizard and not a 'valued' member of the team.

Dr.Epic
2011-02-12, 01:08 AM
As everyone else has commented, you always get at least 1 skill point per level no matter how low your int is.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-02-12, 03:30 PM
Bonus skill points go after minimum of 1 from intelligence penalty. There are other references that it does. I forget if its RoD and Drag Comp, or BoED, but I have seen it.

Vance_Nevada
2011-02-12, 03:46 PM
An 8 INT Human Fighter gets 2 skill points anyway.

Only a 6 INT Human Fighter gets the minimum 1 skill point (and it doesn't get any worse if you get lower INT because of the minimum 1).

I'd have no problem telling a player that their low INT invalidates their Human bonus skill point. If they wanted more skill points, what the heck are they doing playing with 6 or less INT?

Vangor
2011-02-12, 03:46 PM
No offence, but if I was DM and you came up with an idea like that you'd get a face full of DMG.

His explanation seems like an attempt to subvert the rules, but such an explanation is unnecessary. The feature discusses the skill points being added as a bonus, being distinct from the multiplier of the first level, and to me this means what influences skill points naturally gained by class does not influence human skill points as a racial feature. Further, I can think of no other racial feature which could be lost in such a manner.