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Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 06:23 PM
So, not gonna bore the lot of ye with ramblings on the metaphysics of the scenario, but here's the basic rundown:

About a hundred-ish years ago, a church burned down and killed everyone inside. A memorial was put up in the ruins of the church in the form of 100 candles. The souls of those who died appreciated this and nurtured the flames, keeping them burning for all these years. Each year, however, one of the candles went out as the spirits slowly begen to feel forgotten by those left behind. Now there's only one candle still burning, and the spirits are growing restless.

So, my plan is for this first session of the new low-magic campaign I'm running is for this small village to be overrun by these pissed off spirits while the PCs are staying there. Only problem is, I can't decide how I want to represent the spirits. Ghosts seem obvious, but have a lot of extra abilities that I don't really want. Plus considering the PCs are 3rd level, I don't think they can take on a large force of ghosts.

Thing is, I want these things to be incoporeal and basically force the PCs to prepare for a seige or flee, but I also don't want my PCs to get insta-gibbed for being in the same room as one. Any ideas?

Adamantrue
2011-02-11, 06:29 PM
Savage Progressions did the Ghost (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) Savage Species style. Perhaps you could apply the first level of the Template-Class, to get the effect without all those extras?

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 06:30 PM
Alright, probably should have said this in the first place:

Please do not suggest any material not in the books listed in my sig. Thank you.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-11, 06:33 PM
Libris Mortis has the Ghost Brute template. Seems good.

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 06:37 PM
Libris Mortis has the Ghost Brute template. Seems good.

True, but it's also stuffed full of supah powahs. Of course, I could just not use those, but that almost seems too easy.

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 06:48 PM
If you want to put them in a fleeing situation, then it really doesn't matter what they're fighting, does it?

Allips, Ghosts, and shadows are all decent. I would say a 3rd level party could take down 1 or 2 of these, in any combination, so long as they're decently optimized and know they're fighting incorporeal before hand.

Just throw one or two at them, let them see how hard it is, and let them see there are 90 more just around the corner.

That is kinda hard to make your group fight a bunch of incorporeal in a low magic campaign. Magic is what hurts ghosts and such the most. In fact, I do believe with the half chance of a non magical weapon hitting them, you are dooming your group no matter what you throw at them.

To seige against incorporeal? Unless you got a couple of priests willing to bless everything around them, I am not sure that will work. You can't lock anything up against creatures that can float through walls. Their mundane weapons are almost useless.

The good news is, this is definitely the cleric's time to shine in the campaign! Go cleric!

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 07:01 PM
If you want to put them in a fleeing situation, then it really doesn't matter what they're fighting, does it?

Allips, Ghosts, and shadows are all decent. I would say a 3rd level party could take down 1 or 2 of these, in any combination, so long as they're decently optimized and know they're fighting incorporeal before hand.

Just throw one or two at them, let them see how hard it is, and let them see there are 90 more just around the corner.

I like the Shadows idea. Especially if I made them only visable as cast shadows, slinking along the wall and the like.


That is kinda hard to make your group fight a bunch of incorporeal in a low magic campaign. Magic is what hurts ghosts and such the most. In fact, I do believe with the half chance of a non magical weapon hitting them, you are dooming your group no matter what you throw at them.

You're thinking invisible creatures. Incorporeal creatures are immune to non-magical attacks, period. Fortunately, 3/6 of the PCs are Warlocks. Unfortunately, magi are illegal in this setting and they'll have a death sentance on their heads should they be caught using magic.


To seige against incorporeal? Unless you got a couple of priests willing to bless everything around them, I am not sure that will work. You can't lock anything up against creatures that can float through walls. Their mundane weapons are almost useless.

I was gonna have it so they can't walk through solid objects, but weapon can't hurt them. Why? Because magic has it's own rules, and little time for the world's.


The good news is, this is definitely the cleric's time to shine in the campaign! Go cleric!

No such thing as clerics in this setting, unfortunately.

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 07:19 PM
Wow, that's kinda funny. Low magic campaign where magic in general is banned... plus 3 of the 6 are magic users? Plus no clerics allowed at all?

What is the rest of the group?

I imagine any sort of cleric-like items are gone as well? Flasks of holy water? That just lowered their chances considerably.

Why are you doing this? You seem to be dooming your characters from the start. The only way they can effectively fight these creatures is to reveal themselves as magic users, which is a death sentence.

Thank you for making them unable to move through solid objects. It makes it possible for people to cower in the corners of basements I suppose.

So, the only option is to run then. And like I said before, if they're just running it really doesn't matter what you put in front of them, they're just going to run.

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 07:39 PM
Wow, that's kinda funny. Low magic campaign where magic in general is banned... plus 3 of the 6 are magic users? Plus no clerics allowed at all?

What is the rest of the group?

I tried to make Warlocks as unappealing as I could, but it would seem infinite blasting was too good to pass up.

Party is thus:
Warrior 3
Rogue 3
Rogue 3
Warrior 1/Warlock 2
Rogue 1/Warlock 2
Warlock 3

Warriors and Rogues are both homebrew versions, found in my sig.


I imagine any sort of cleric-like items are gone as well? Flasks of holy water? That just lowered their chances considerably.

No supernatural or alchemical items of any sort.


Why are you doing this? You seem to be dooming your characters from the start.

Because they are not the big strapping heroes here. The universe is vast and can **** on them at any moment, and the only way through is wit, tenacity and luck. But, enough gaming philosophy.


The only way they can effectively fight these creatures is to reveal themselves as magic users, which is a death sentence.

Or they could assure no one is watching, then use magic. Or use magic, then kill all witnesses (two of the warlocks are utter psychos raised to kill since childhood, and the other is only slightly more sane).

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 07:45 PM
I always enjoy the vigorous debate in Psycho's adventure advice threads. :smallbiggrin:

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 07:48 PM
I always enjoy the vigorous debate in Psycho's adventure advice threads. :smallbiggrin:

That may or may not be half the reason I start these threads. :smalltongue: Just because I shrug off the crys of "this is a bad idea!" doesn't mean I'm ignoring what people say.

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 08:09 PM
So if your gaming philosophy is that the world is a big old meanie and the only way for people to survive is by wits and luck... why are you trying to make their chances more reasonable?

I imagine the world being a big ole meanie and sending 99 ghosts after your party fits in perfectly with your gaming philosophy.

Good luck with this.

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 08:32 PM
So if your gaming philosophy is that the world is a big old meanie and the only way for people to survive is by wits and luck... why are you trying to make their chances more reasonable?

I imagine the world being a big ole meanie and sending 99 ghosts after your party fits in perfectly with your gaming philosophy.

Good luck with this.

'cause difficult and impossible are two different things.

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 08:59 PM
It doesn't matter if the encounter is difficult or impossible if the point is to make them run away... or cower in the basement.

If you want to make it a difficult encounter, send a dozen or so skeletons after them, to fight in waves.

If you want to make an impossible encounter, send some incorporeal creatures after adventurers with no divine help, no magic items, and make the only viable option to deal damage (magic) met with execution if anyone happens to witness it.

Seriously, you purposely tried to stop people from playing Warlocks knowing full well their first encounter was going to be against creatures that no rogue or warrior would be able to damage at all? I can't fathom this. You just made half of the party useless. Anyone who took the GM's advice of playing a warrior gets to run away or watch in frustration as people who took magic classes actually do something fun in the game.


You made this an impossible encounter. Now you want to dial it back because you realize you might kill your party before they get a chance to tell you what kind of boots they're wearing?

Khatoblepas
2011-02-11, 09:20 PM
Don't make it a monster. At all. Ever. This is a bad idea. The Warlocks will be able to take it on while the rest of the party are useless (Also, death sentence for being useful against creatures noone else can fight? Looks like the world is as suicidal as the players for playing in these)

If you want to scare the players, making them flee (Again. Have you tried running a different style of campaign? This has been the setup for all of your last campaigns), make it a trap. In darkness, the players get assaulted (touch attacks for minor hp damage and maybe if they stay in the darkness too long, 1d2-1 Wisdom damage. Emphasis on minor. Do not kill them. DO NOT). In the light, the players are somewhat safe. Their torches don't last forever, so they gotta keep moving, finding something else to burn to keep them safe until morning. The reasoning being, the light makes them placated, and darkness reminds them of the lost candles.

There. That keeps the players occupied, the warriors not useless, and the creatures defendable in a siege or chase situation without making the party helpless. It's not as if the players have anything to do otherwise than run like sissies and die horribly. That's not fun at all.

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 09:22 PM
It doesn't matter if the encounter is difficult or impossible if the point is to make them run away... or cower in the basement.

You're missing my point. You're interpreting "victory" as "all enemies defeated." I am interpreting "victory" as "survival."


Seriously, you purposely tried to stop people from playing Warlocks knowing full well their first encounter was going to be against creatures that no rogue or warrior would be able to damage at all?

Not at all. The "discourage them from playing Warlocks" thing was over a month ago now. I came up with this encounter last night.


(Also, death sentence for being useful against creatures noone else can fight? Looks like the world is as suicidal as the players for playing in these)

That would be a valid concern if these things didn't only occur in isolated areas, with such little frequency that the village elder only remembers it from stories he heard as a child.


-stuff-

Interesting. Might use it.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-11, 09:25 PM
Psycho, I'd advocate caution. You have a storied history of running survival-horror encounters for action gamers, and also for overkill. Perhaps this is the tiniest bit too ambitious for a third level party?

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 09:31 PM
Psycho, I'd advocate caution. You have a storied history of running survival-horror encounters for action gamers, and also for overkill. Perhaps this is the tiniest bit too ambitious for a third level party?

Quite. Hence why I'm here asking for suggestions as to a way to fulfill my plans without gibbing everyone (unless they're stupid). I really do like that "fight off the darkness with torches" idea, though. Just have them survive 'til morning.

If I had more time to think of something else, I might. But the session is tomorrow so I've kinda just have to run with the material I have.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 09:34 PM
Candles that lasted for 100 years?
Those are some BIG candles alright.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-11, 09:35 PM
I would suggest making it somehow possible for the warriors to fight the spirits. Maybe something not exactly magical in the normal D&D sense, but still mildly supernatural. Maybe they can coat their weapons with the wax of the candles, allowing them to affect the spirits through the special significance they have to them. Maybe the spirits are vulnerable to/afraid of fire, as it was the cause of their death.

Perhaps they can "beat" the spirits through other means, such as proving to them that they are honored, or rebuilding/re-consecrating the temple, or something like that. Thus you can have it be slightly more cerebral than just facing very difficult fights and/or running away.

For the record I have no problem with your survival horror style, provided that's what your players want to participate in.

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 09:40 PM
Candles that lasted for 100 years?
Those are some BIG candles alright.

No, just normal candles that supernatural entities didn't want to go out.


Perhaps they can "beat" the spirits through other means, such as proving to them that they are honored, or rebuilding/re-consecrating the temple, or something like that. Thus you can have it be slightly more cerebral than just facing very difficult fights and/or running away.

I'll consider leaving that door open, should the players think to use it.

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 09:45 PM
How am I interpreting victory as defeating all enemies? I have said for quite a while there is nothing but survival in this situation.

You stacked all the odds against the players, so they're forced to survive by running away or hiding.

And again... my point is... if the only way to survive the night is to run away or hide, why do you want to tone down the monsters? It doesn't matter if it's a dozen wraiths or a couple of lesser shadows, the adventurers can't do anything to them anyway.

Is it more of a victory if the adventurers run away from the lesser shadows versus running away from wraiths?

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 09:48 PM
Is it more of a victory if the adventurers run away from the lesser shadows versus running away from wraiths?

Let's put it this way: versus shadows, if they make a mistake they have 12 seconds to fix it or they die. Versus wraiths, they have about half a second to fix it, or die.

Obviously this isn't a literal timescale, but do you get my meaning? Weaker monsters gives them a little more wiggle room between "doing exactly what I want them to" and "instant, horrible death."

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 09:48 PM
No, just normal candles that supernatural entities didn't want to go out.
So in your low magic game, supernatural entities care about candles? :smallamused:

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 09:49 PM
So in your low magic game, supernatural entities care about candles? :smallamused:

These ones do. Most probably don't. Would you care for a long, rambling essay about how these entities behave?

Force
2011-02-11, 09:51 PM
"doing exactly what I want them to"

*choo choo* So, you're not looking for a monster so much as a railroad engineer.

true_shinken
2011-02-11, 09:52 PM
These ones do. Most probably don't. Would you care for a long, rambling essay about how these entities behave?

Not necessary, thanks. It's just very different from my DMing style. You're basically using supernatural stuff to move your plot whenever you need it but denying it to your players. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not how I do it and find it a bit weird. The whole thing about your plot and having the players do what you seems like a mistake, though. 'Do what I want or die' is not a real choice. This is just really heavy railroading in the end of the day.

EDIT: damn, ninja'd

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-11, 09:53 PM
Modify an existing creature to suit the situation. Pick an incorporeal undead of an appropriate CR, in this case a Shadow will be sufficient, replace its Str damage touch with fire damage, and describe them as smoking, charred husks. Many of them will have regressed to only the memory of being trapped in the fire, and move about as though trying to escape. They've inadvertently started some small fires around town which so far have been easy to extinguish, and have occasionally hurt someone but fleeing from their screaming victims in confusion. Not extremely dangerous, but definitely something that needs to be dealt with.

A local Druid 4 intends to put these spirits to rest, one way or another. He's made extensive use of Bone Talismans (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) to drive them away and has fashioned a bone weapon spear with which he intends to destroy them if necessary. He's summoned the occasional water elemental to douse a fire that threatened to get out of hand, and the townsfolk are impressed with his abilities but also fearful that he may further anger the spirits. He has charmed a medium viper which always seems to show up when he gets into trouble. The townsfolk think his bone magic and snake handling are quite strange, and while he doesn't associate with the townsfolk he views these spirits as a dangerous perversion of the natural order which must be set right.

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 09:58 PM
What are they going to do if they're in the same room with these things? You just want them to waste a few rounds running away? Seriously?

So you want these creatures to get right up next to the adventurers for a few rounds of "OMGWTFBBQ" before the players decide to run away.

Nope. I don't get it. I think you can make the exact same point if some old man just told the characters that there are wraiths running around and strange noises coming from that old church memorial. The players will run away or hide in the basement exactly as they would before.

Personally I think it would be better if the characters were told beforehand. It makes for a better scare when they are already cowering in the basement before you ever did anything other then tell them that, "The sun sets and an eerie calm surrounds you all. What do you do?"

Warrior: "I cower some more."

Warlock: "I know there are no priests, but I start praying anyway."

Rogue: "I pee myself. Does that help?"

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 09:58 PM
*choo choo* So, you're not looking for a monster so much as a railroad engineer.

No, I'm trying to find a cliff face wide enough that they can step off my rails without plummeting to their deaths.


-snip-

First part: awesome. Totally doing that.

Second part: Sorry, no Druids in this setting either. I think I'll stick to the "survive 'til dawn" thing.


Nope. I don't get it. I think you can make the exact same point if some old man just told the characters that there are wraiths running around and strange noises coming from that old church memorial. The players will run away or hide in the basement exactly as they would before.

Well, they'll be well aware something's wrong before the pissed off church-ghosts start killing everything. I'm fond of atmosphere.


Personally I think it would be better if the characters were told beforehand. It makes for a better scare when they are already cowering in the basement before you ever did anything other then tell them that, "The sun sets and an eerie calm surrounds you all. What do you do?"

Warrior: "I cower some more."

Warlock: "I know there are no priests, but I start praying anyway."

Rogue: "I pee myself. Does that help?"

Honestly, those reactions would make me ecstatic.

Force
2011-02-11, 10:02 PM
No, I'm trying to find a cliff face wide enough that they can step off my rails without plummeting to their deaths.

To continue the analogy, the party has been tied to the rails and does not have the tools necessary to free themselves before the oncoming train squashes them. It may be wise to allow them to gain access to such tools, especially those that will allow them to spike the rails and derail the train. Such derailings, while tragic, are cool as all get out to watch-- especially if it's your enemies in question. :smallcool:

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 10:09 PM
To continue the analogy, the party has been tied to the rails and does not have the tools necessary to free themselves before the oncoming train squashes them. It may be wise to allow them to gain access to such tools, especially those that will allow them to spike the rails and derail the train. Such derailings, while tragic, are cool as all get out to watch-- especially if it's your enemies in question. :smallcool:

Well, the bonds wouldn't be so tight if I wasn't so rushed. I had some technical difficulties earlier this week (plus a WoW addiction, but that's entirely mea culpa) and it kept me from getting all the planning I done I wanted, so everything about the session's plot is two days old at best. I mostly just want some spooky noises to keep them entertained until next week, where I'll actually have time to get something more prepared ready.

The biggest problem is that I dumped them in a town in the middle of the woods with a population of like 100. Not exactly a bounty of potential hooks.

Thurbane
2011-02-11, 10:11 PM
Honestly, those reactions would make me ecstatic.
I have to ask - are the players happy basically being ineffectual buffoons who must run and cower from nearly every encounter? It's your group, and only you (and they) know the answer to that, but I gotta say, it sure doesn't sound like much fun to me. :smallfrown:

Sillycomic
2011-02-11, 10:12 PM
Cool. Well if your group likes that kind of stuff, all the better to them.

I do want an update about how this does. It's intriguing. And there have been some really good ideas here.

Drakevarg
2011-02-11, 10:23 PM
I have to ask - are the players happy basically being ineffectual buffoons who must run and cower from nearly every encounter? It's your group, and only you (and they) know the answer to that, but I gotta say, it sure doesn't sound like much fun to me. :smallfrown:

Given that they seem to consider the Chained Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171268) the most memorable encounter from the last campaign, I'd say they get a thrill out of it, yes.

Jergmo
2011-02-12, 03:14 PM
I believe I have a simple, tidy solution for you. Look at the incorporeal subtype and the undead type - apply the qualities of both types to a 1st level commoner.

Types & Subtypes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm)

My example:
Miffed Spirit: 1st level human commoner custom ghost. CR: 1?
HP: 6 Init: +0 AC: 11 (+1 deflection), flat-footed 11, touch 11
Attack: Incorporeal touch +0 melee (1d3)
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0
Str Ø, Dex 10, Con Ø, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Pointless commoner skills
Feats: Pointless commoner feats
Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, undead traits

true_shinken
2011-02-12, 11:14 PM
I believe Manual of the Planes has the stats for petitioners. If I remember correctly, they are the weakest incorporeal foes out there.

jiriku
2011-02-12, 11:31 PM
Psycho, I'm going to agree with Biff and Jergmo. Your need is extremely specific. The best way to fill it is with a DM Special. Simply decide in your head what you want the spirits to be capable of, translate the cinematic vision into mechanics, and fill out a stat block accordingly.

RTGoodman
2011-02-13, 12:19 AM
Here's a crazy idea. Why not run the whole like what 4E would call a Skill Challenge?

Basically, if you want the focus on "survival-horror" tropes, don't have them fight the spirits immediately, have them do things to keep them away. The Warlocks can use Knowledge (Arcane) checks to perform a minor ritual that can partially seal the room from spirits. Anyone with Knowledge (Religion or Arcana) can do the same (at a higher DC) to force the creatures to become (at least partially) corporeal when they enter the room. Let the rest of the party come up with creative uses of their skills (particularly trained ones, since they're level 3) to keep the ghosties and ghoulies away. Set a difficulty level (must succeed on 7 of 12 skill checks, or 8 successes before 3 failures, or something) and go from there.

If they fail the challenge, they get attacked by, say 1d6 to 1d8 of the ghosts. Give them stats as a human zombie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm), but maybe have their attacks do fire damage instead of normal damage. (They did burn to death, after all.) Instead of being incorporeal, all burnt spirits have have total concealment. If players succeeded on enough Religion/Arcana checks, they only have partial concealment (or no concealment - it's up to you).

If they succeed on the skill challenge, they manage to fend off the ghosts for the night. They may have to repeat it the next night, or do something else to assuage the angry ghosts, but they don't get attacked.