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Zaydos
2011-02-12, 03:21 AM
Okay first session of a campaign just (4 hours ago; went out to eat after) ended and my PCs (Level 8 gestalt, no multiclassing on either side, 1 PrC at a time and max 1 PrC per side) fought a few slivers and decided to go to the pair of wizards' home town to restock supplies.

The hometown that I had told them was next on the list of places for the elven army (the bad guys in this game) to attack. I have told them that they will have to really use strategy to win this battle and most likely cannot do more than hurt the elven army before retreating.

In short how do I plan a large scale battle adventure which the PCs will most likely lose without being so powerful they just die?

Below is a more extensive summary of the party and their capabilities.


Catfolk warlock 7//rogue 8: Greater Chausable of Fell Power, 21 AC, Eldritch Glaive, and Craven. Can Walk Unseen. Unfortunately the super elves of this setting have at-will see invisibility; thankfully the elven army is mostly orcs and goblins.
Half-Celestial Marshal 4//Cleric 8: Has Zen Archery, Protection Devotion (3/day), Healing Touch, and Reinforced Wings. 20 AC I think (+8 Full-Plate, +1 Dex, +1 Ring of Protection?); can motivate Dex, Int, and Major Aura of +1 to saves. Celestia Domain.
Human Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 5//Druid 8. Specialized in Summoning (every feat is dedicated to improving summoning, except Natural Spell). No familiar. Has Augment Elemental from Magic of Eberron and Ashbound Summoning from Eberron. Also Rapid Summoning from UA for his wizard summons.
Homebrewed winged-wolf-man race Transmuter 5/Child of the Night 2//Truenamer 8. Uses Kyuedo's fix from these forums (so significantly more useful truenamer). Been a long time since I looked the fix over (I will do that soon). Has some BC (subdual damage + knocks people prone; or single target immobilization), healing, single-target buffing.
Shadow Dragon//Dread Necromancer 8. Will come in part way and has a skeletal triceratops and marilith. 28 AC; has Tomb-Tainted Soul, Corpsecrafter, and Retributive Destruction feats so that if she manages to animate enemy soldiers she'll have exploding zombies. I allowed her to use Advanced Learning to learn Desecrate (I thought it was Necromancy and almost gave it to her for free anyway because they should have it) and she carries the stuff to animate dead 64 HD of undead (she can animate up to 56 more HD of undead without losing control of any of them) and she can turn them into zombie bombs.


The elves in this world have +2 Con, +4 Str, and +6 to everything else, DR 10/cold iron, SR, woodland stride, 40-ft speed, immunity to enchantment and disease, resistance to poison and mind-affecting effects, can speak with animals, see invisibility, detect magic and use ghost sound at will. They have 1/day entangle, and Charm Person 3/day. The more advanced troops have more SLAs (starting at 3rd with invisibility, and gaining [never earlier than a wizard or druid] greater invisibility, dominate animal, tree stride, charm monster, mass charm person, maybe all the way up to Greater Dispel Magic) and they might be able to bum a Control Weather effect off an ally although they don't get that high level in the battle (I'm not throwing anyone above 11th at the PCs).

The PCs can make skill checks to know all the SLAs available to the elves and Charm, Invisibility, and See Invisibility are common knowledge as is their DR and SR (the elves are rather a public force in the world).

The PCs will have a force of winged wolf-men (flight as raptorans; divided into 3 subraces; hot-headed physical warriors, diplomats, and wizard/rogues but all of them got themselves captured already), humans, catfolks, and maybe halflings. The elves will also have orcs, goblins, and monsters as I see fit. The PCs will have the help of at least one human conjurer 3/Master Specialist 3//Druid 6 (the wizard//druid's former teacher).

Also to confirm my elves as evil, evil creatures their front line's battle standards will be still living captured scouts nailed to wood and carried by hobgoblin warriors. I'm thinking this might should force a morale check or give some sort of morale penalty on the PCs' forces (not the PCs themselves)


So any advice on running a battle in which the odds are stacked against the players but not so far that they will just be curbstomped. I want them to hurt the enemy, but ultimately be forced to fall back and abandon the town (giving them extra reason to hate the elves).

Actually any advice on running a battle at all? I've never ran a large scale battle before so anything would help.

Jair Barik
2011-02-12, 05:41 AM
Take a leaf out of RHoD's book. Don't have a single massive encounter, structure it as multiple smaller encounters each capable of testing the players abilities and pushing them hard.

Definitely include some daylight casters to be capable of hurting the shadow dragon otherwise he could really butcher the army. Have seige weapons or monsters bombard the town from a distance forcing the players to either abandon it or go out on attacks against the seige engines as the NPC's are wounded/killed by the long range attacks. Dragon fly overs against the settlement are another good one.

Squads of enemies (consisting of both elites and low level mooks) sent to attack multiple breaches in the town. Potentially scry and die casters porting in above the town (with invisibility) and then hitting the NPC squads with lng range casting or summon spamming inside the town to open up another front for the invading army.

Effectively have the enemy diminish the players ability to defend the town, perhaps send a death team after the party (decent CR party of elves) once they are identified as a threat and make it progressively clear that the way the battle is going the party cannot continue to hold the town against such odds and that a retreat is a more viable option as the town becomes progresively less worth defending.

Godskook
2011-02-12, 06:22 AM
1.Establish how many 'Victory points' (or VP) the party needs to earn. Let's say 15, since this isn't a battle they have much time to influence.

2.Decide how many victory points you want to 'exist'. Each point over and above the target value is the margin of 'error' you're allowing the PCs to have. It should be at least 18, simply cause there should be some margin for error.

3.Develop tasks(or let your PCs tell you their ideas), and then assign them a VP rating. 1 or 2 for easy goals, 2-4 for challenging stuff, and 4 to 6 for the epic things. Perhaps you divide as such:

- 6 VP: Kill enemy general
- 2 VP: Harry/destroy supply caravans
- 3 VP: Slaughter a special forces unit that's sneaking behind the PC's lines before it can do harm.
- 1 VP: A few easy jobs.

Now, killing the enemy general isn't enough to stop the coming fight, but it will greatly disrupt them, and an already broken army is likely to collapse in the power gap.

Zaydos
2011-02-12, 01:35 PM
Any idea what kind of numbers would be good for allied forces and/or enemy forces (I really haven't ran a large scale battle before). Thankfully I can abuse reinforcements (the elves are cocky enough to not send a full force forward initially) so worst case scenario I err on the side of caution and decide the next wave based on the power of the PCs attacking.

As for the Shadow Dragon she has 1 HD above Wyrmling so RAW she doesn't have anything from Very Young yet, but I ruled she got parts of it broken up over 3 levels starting with +2 Str and +2 to mental stat of choice and +1 natural armor so she doesn't have Shadow Blend yet. Although I had to check her sheet to remember that. Even so with her ability to cast Darkness as a dread necromancer I might want to have some Daylight capable mages. Thanks.

I'm thinking that I will award VP for significantly helping allied troops (buffing them with AoE buff spells such as Bless, Prayer, Divine Protection etc), killing enemy units, destroying siege engines, and enemy commanders (there will be multiple; the last of which will be a Lv 11 Wizard//something).

Jair Barik
2011-02-12, 01:55 PM
Good to hear on the Shadow dragon. True seeing doesn't (by RAW) allow one to see it as it has total concealment. A shadow draagon with enough natural weapons plus some sneak attack can be a scary thing indeed.

From the sound of things you may be falling into the classic war pitfall of 3.5. Rather than having an exact number of soldiers on each side use abstracts with exact enemy numbers only mattering for skirmishes the PC's are involved in.

Think of the Battle for Azure city as an example.
Encounter 1- Elementals attack the walls. If PC's intervine and take down the elementals the walls hold. If the PC's intervene but not before the elementals deal major damage a minor breach is opened. If the PC's chose to focus their attention at a specific point and leave other elementals to the NPC's all elementals die but at any point the PC's didn't intervene a major breach is opened.
Encounter 2- Lich attack. Whilst the Lich attack is optional for the PC's it is in their benefit to attempt to stop him to protect the MacGuffin. If they do not notice him or he escapes then he has no direct input on the rest of the battle, but the Paladin's in the throne room will have depleted numbers if the fight should move there.
Encounter 3- Hobgoblin main attack. Hobgoblin army surges forwards, high level undead move with three groups. PC's fight large numbers of undead/hobgoblins in any breach they defend. Those breaches that the PC's do not defend will be overwhelmed by the enemies superior numbers. A large breach will be overwhelmed after three rounds of combat, a small breach after 7 and anywhere the wall held firm after 10. Once a piece of wall is secured the army then proceeds to move to ajacent wall sections resulting in rear/flank assualts on the troops there with increasing numbers.

And so on.

If possible avoid precise numbers for the army in general and instead make a series of conditions that decide when and if the town is overrun. Avoid mass combat as it will slow down the game and the players will get bored.

Zaydos
2011-02-12, 02:13 PM
Good to hear on the Shadow dragon. True seeing doesn't (by RAW) allow one to see it as it has total concealment. A shadow draagon with enough natural weapons plus some sneak attack can be a scary thing indeed.

From the sound of things you may be falling into the classic war pitfall of 3.5. Rather than having an exact number of soldiers on each side use abstracts with exact enemy numbers only mattering for skirmishes the PC's are involved in.

-snip-

If possible avoid precise numbers for the army in general and instead make a series of conditions that decide when and if the town is overrun. Avoid mass combat as it will slow down the game and the players will get bored.

Thankfully the dragon's player wants to go undead overlord route and not assassin (something seems wrong with being glad for the undead overlord route). That said thanks I think that was probably the best advice I could get.

I'm thinking something like:
Enc #1: Goblin Calvary; the PCs have to handle goblins on wargs which are using their speed and maneuverability (plus the sheer power of wargs) to wipe up their infantry.
Enc #2: Hobgoblin Catapults; While the PCs are handling the goblins the catapults are moving into position and the hobgoblins begin firing.
Enc #3a: Fight off hobgoblin attackers. If the PCs reach this point, they're losing. Archers will be firing at them and they'll probably need to gather troops together so that the cleric can buff them to have a chance at all.
Enc #3b: Stop the archers; if the PCs have used some basic BC, or (gasp) splitting the party, to hold back the hobgoblin main force then they'll need to take out the smatterings of archer contingents and the constrained hobgoblin forces can be mopped up. Of course this only initiates the 2nd wave when the elves actually get their immortal selves involved.

Have to figure out exact things once the elves are involved but that will get to be more dangerous and more specialized and probably force a party split (elven commander is sniping with Long range spells, elven wizard-scouts are using invisibility spheres and aerial mounts to get above town and begin bombing it with alchemist fire, rocks, etc; magical BC begins to be used against them; invisible elven warriors spring up behind their defenses; etc).

Jair Barik
2011-02-12, 02:21 PM
Sounds good. Though if I may make a suggestion perhaps meld encounters 1 and 2 together? If the party are smart and decide to use the defense provided by townwalls or even hand made barricades then the Worgs likely pose little threat. If however the trebuchets/catapults/whatever opened up first and started making small holes in the wall it would lead to an intresting choice. Does the party...
A-Split up and attempt to take down the catapults but leave some people back to hold off the Worg's?
B-Attack the catapults and hope the NPC's can deal with worg riders attacking the breaches.
C-Man the breach against the riders, perhaps using their own magic to fix some of the damage.
Option C of course has them left with further catapult fire that will open further breaches when the bulk of the army attacks.

One thing to watch out for (I am unaware of dread necros precise power) is the dragon making some undead hordes. If he can potentially make a large army from the fallen foes then you may be in trouble so perhaps throw some enemy Clerics in to turn/destroy or Rebuke/control his creations possibly using command undead on them as well.

Zaydos
2011-02-12, 02:42 PM
You're right if the PCs actually barricade (which they hopefully will do) then the wargs will have to wait till the catapults are in position so enc #1 and 2 would be combined. I'm guessing the dragon will not show up till the elves do or if the PCs are really floundering (whichever comes first) but I should include some clerics amongst the hobgoblins; probably as their commander (a Lv 6 cleric//duskblade).

The elves will also probably be led by a wizard//cleric as that lets me emphasize their magical nature even further.

That said the dragon can make a total of 32 zombies if she really has too over the course of 4 rounds; although she can only make 16 until something is destroyed (she has 2 max HD undead already; they could do some massive damage to the enemy but will get hit by ~6 attacks per round if they do so). Perhaps give some of the hobgoblins and elves in the 2nd wave bludgeoning weapons to deal with her two high HD undead and force her to actually use them strategically (as in backstory the elves have ran into her and know she's somewhere in the area it makes sense for them to be prepared).

Thanks again, you've been (and are being) a lot of help.

WinWin
2011-02-12, 02:50 PM
Use a Vice on the PC's using tactics as above.

Very simply, give them a mix of easy/moderate difficulty encounters. Then keep them coming. Mix up encounters with a commando force or leader whenever the group gets overconfident.

The idea is to wear down their resources slowly without giving them the opportunity to rest. Eventually they will be forced to withdraw, then the enemy force can advance.

If the PC's manage to take out an important commander during their withrawal, then the loss may not sting as much.

Jair Barik
2011-02-12, 02:53 PM
Your welcome.

If the players are the type who aren't likely to run unless the 'you know what' really hits the fan then I do have one suggestion that would really turn the tide of battle whilst still offering a way out for the players. As a precursor to the main elf attack force perhaps have three elves fly over in an aerial attack. Now I don't know what creatures the elves have under their thrall but ideally here it would be a Large dragon and maybe 2 Chimeras. Each chimera has an Elf ranger of some sort on its back to begin an arrow bombardment whilst the dragon rider is a cleric of some sorts. As they fly over have the Cleric pop off a plague of undead or field of ghouls spell (high level from Libris Mortis, probably should be cast from a scroll). If the dragon pops down to the ground for the Cleric to cast the spell you will be looking at a lot of zombies or ghouls sprouting up inside a breach or wherever the fighting has been thickest. Seeing their allies and enemies rise from the dead tofight again you could have some of the remaining NPC's begin to flee in fear thinking all is lost. Now the good thing about this is that whilst there are a lot of Zombies they are still very slow. The PC's at this point should hopefully take the hint. They may be capable of dealing with the three aerial elf cavalry and the horde of low HD undead, but with their allies fleeing and another wave of foes approaching they will be best of running (especially as the enemy has flying forces to negate the Dragon's aerial advantage). Where you go from here is up to you but you have a logical reason as to the PC's being able to escape (zombies too slow, or ghouls are feasting on the dead) and the opportunity for a potential fighting retreat against the aerial cavalry.

Zaydos
2011-02-12, 04:11 PM
I want to avoid anything above 6th level spells except maybe control weather (as elves can use that as an SLA eventually and it would be fairly easy to have bummed it off before marching without sending a high level caster in, or risking giving the PCs a scroll).

Do to the power level of undead dragons I'd prefer not to send any large dragons in as they might get killed and reanimated, that said I'll probably have the elves open with an aerial assault when the hobgoblins lose.