Building a keep

[DarkEternal]

So, my party decided that they reached the point in their adventuring days when they should have enough money and experience to buy their own property that they would use as mercenary camp and for profit, an academy, be it for teaching magic users or the art of combat.


So, they went to Waterdeep and I sold them a property a day away from the city and am basically here to ask for some guide lines and to see if I did this right.

The cost for the keep in the DMG is set on 200 000 gold, so I told them that, and also sold them said property because the city is in debt to them, because none of them are noble men, but the lords of Waterdeep are prepared to look the other way due to their services. So, 200 000 gold for a keep. From the DMG it says that the keep can have between 16 and 25 rooms, I settled on 20 rooms, and then went to the Stronghold Builder book, and looked at the examples.

From my personal view, the 200 000 basically gives you the land and the bare keep, with all 20 rooms. Now, you pay extra for the type of room you want, like the library, the bedroom suites, the training grounds, armory and so forth. The prices for that are well placed in the Stronghold builder.

The mage wanted a mage tower, so incorporated it in the Keep, as a part of it. The price for a tower, as stated in the DMG is 50 000 gold, you basically get three rooms, stacked on each other if I understood that correctly, which is a bit steep considering the keep i s 200 000 but you get 20 rooms, so since it is incorporated in the keep itself, I lowert the price to 30 000.

Anyway, after all is said and done, they made their purchase, decided what rooms will be used for what. By tallying it all up, the receipt went up to 302 000 gold. Now, are there any suggestions of what I might look up next for this? Admittedly, I didn't read the entire Stronghold builder book, nor the DM guides, so I don't know how long it takes to build one of these(I skimmed that the process can be hastened via magic use and so on), how much land does this thing get you, what sort of taxes are you supposed to pay to the main city, are you considered some sort of lord where you govern your own small province, basically a feudalist who has control over the peasants in the area, things like that?

[FelixG]

If the mage is smart enough he wont have to pay a penny to raise the keep between walls of stone, fabricate and creation and the like.

Otherwise they would need to hire the laborers to buld the place...Also you should be charging them only 1/3 the cost for everything mundane as they are raising it all themselves

From there you could use the Crafting or profession rules with a ton of commoners doing aid another checks to make it go faster.

It will take awhile though.

On the topic of Taxes and tithes: The main city owes them, plus it is in the cities best interest to have them there as an added defence, so if you dont want to worry about percentages and what not you could have the leaders of the city make a pact with the players that they and their forces come to the aid of the city in times of need.

Otherwise a keep and property would normally lord over some small villages and hamlets and what not, you could just say that the taxes that are collected from the commoners in their surrounding land pays for the operations of their mercs (for training, patrols ect) and pays for the taxes on their lands to the lords of the city.

[DarkEternal]

If the mage is smart enough he wont have to pay a penny to raise the keep between walls of stone, fabricate and creation and the like.

Otherwise they would need to hire the laborers to buld the place...Also you should be charging them only 1/3 the cost for everything mundane as they are raising it all themselves

From there you could use the Crafting or profession rules with a ton of commoners doing aid another checks to make it go faster.

It will take awhile though.

On the topic of Taxes and tithes: The main city owes them, plus it is in the cities best interest to have them there as an added defence, so if you dont want to worry about percentages and what not you could have the leaders of the city make a pact with the players that they and their forces come to the aid of the city in times of need.

Otherwise a keep and property would normally lord over some small villages and hamlets and what not, you could just say that the taxes that are collected from the commoners in their surrounding land pays for the operations of their mercs (for training, patrols ect) and pays for the taxes on their lands to the lords of the city.

Some of this doesn't really make sense.

Maybe if they raised a keep in the wild or something, it would make sense, but this is a keep that borders with what is pretty much the center of civilisation in Faerun. You can't just "build" stuff because you can there, because you don't have a permit for such things. Yeah, maybe it's a bit too realistic for a game where you fight with dragons, but I'm pretty sure that the lords of Waterdeep would not allow people to build a keep and train mercenaries on their borders just because. I will rule the taxes part to be excused, pretty much if they agree to train a part of the royal army in their camp as their payment, plus the taxes of the surrounding hamlets(it's pretty much a uninhabited place, between Waterdeep and the sea to the northeast).

The city doesn't need to pay squat for the added protection. It doesn't work like that. If you are a part of Waterdeep as a citizen it, by law, pretty much your obligation to protect your city. If you are a mercenary, hell yes, you can sell your services to the city, but if you agreed to be on the land of the city itself, and pretty much become it's citizen there are rules.

Why would I need to charge them one third? I don't understand. It says that the price to build all of these things is what I said. Meaning, it includes the manual labour, the raw materials needed to buy the keep, the furniture and the land itself.

[FelixG]

You misunderstood apparently.

I mean the full on construction could cost them nothing if their mage is smart, not the land cost.

You could use fabricate and the walls of X spells to make pretty much everything needed.

and on the 1/3 cost...If you look at the costs of equipment that is the cost to buy it, normally if you are MAKING something from scratch you only pay 1/3 for the materials, granted for a building if they have labor that could eat up the extra 2/3 of the cost but again, with a magic user who is smart you dont NEED labor or even a need to buy raw materials.

and I was meaning that, as you said, the city is in debt to them so the taxes could be waved, considering that they are gaining another protective force that can stand between them and a potential attacker.

[h2doh]

the cheap keep in stronghold builders guide is 70,000gp and is the same keep you get with the deck of many things. it is 28 stronghold spaces and has around 20 rooms. this is a good starting point, have them add whatever they want after this.

[Marnath]

the cheap keep in stronghold builders guide is 70,000gp and is the same keep you get with the deck of many things. it is 28 stronghold spaces and has around 20 rooms. this is a good starting point, have them add whatever they want after this.

Also, the prices for stronghold spaces include furnishings appropriate for the level of sophistication (basic vs. luxury) which means you don't have to buy furniture seperately unless you're not happy with the default furnishings, or want to upgrade someday when you have money and are sick of sleeping on a straw pallet or something. :smallsmile:

[FelixG]

Also, the prices for stronghold spaces include furnishings appropriate for the level of sophistication (basic vs. luxury) which means you don't have to buy furniture seperately unless you're not happy with the default furnishings, or want to upgrade someday when you have money and are sick of sleeping on a straw pallet or something. :smallsmile:

Who could ever get tired of a straw pallet?! :smallwink:

[Sir_Mopalot]

Moreover, Fabricate and Wall of Stone and all those like it are taken into account in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, I'm not sure what page it's on, but there's a table that tells you what the discount you'd get for the use of that spell.

[FelixG]

Moreover, Fabricate and Wall of Stone and all those like it are taken into account in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, I'm not sure what page it's on, but there's a table that tells you what the discount you'd get for the use of that spell.

Yes but its silly, if you can do those spells and you dont mind taking a bit more time you don't need labor at all, you could do it all for free which it doesn't take into account

[CapnVan]

I'd suggest taking a good long look at the the City of Splendors Web Enhancement, Environs of Waterdeep (http://69.8.198.251/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060503a).

It'll give you a better idea of what's already there and how they work.

[DarkEternal]

I'll take a look at that, yeah, thanks.

I did actually see that there are basic and luxury options, the party wants the keep to be pretty high up, so the only thing that's basic are the servant quarters and the barracks for the recruits, only the best for them :p.

[faceroll]

Yes but its silly, if you can do those spells and you dont mind taking a bit more time you don't need labor at all, you could do it all for free which it doesn't take into account

If you want to see silly, look up the price of adding a moat. I didn't realize ditch diggers were union. :smallsigh:

[Gnoman]

Not sure of the page number, but construction time as a function of cost is rather explicitly stated in the Stronghold Builder's guidebook.

[DarkEternal]

Yeah, I think it's a week for every 10 k of money spent of building it.


Speaking of which, now that I have specifications, do you know of any programs or something with which I could add this stuff, like a miniature building online tool-theme park sort of thing that I can show like a rough sketch or something of the keep to the party? I'm afraid my actual drawing skills are non existant :(

[grimbold]

i think that the cost in the dmg covers materials and labor cost
so you seem to have done well

[CapnVan]

If you want to see silly, look up the price of adding a moat. I didn't realize ditch diggers were union. :smallsigh:

Just their supervisors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0717.html)...

[Beelzebub1111]

You could always go on a quest for a Lyre of Building to mitigate the cost...

[Hazzardevil]

The main problem is if the PC's make major enemys then they need to pay a lot to ensure the keep doesn't get captured or Nuked.

[RndmNumGen]

Yes but its silly, if you can do those spells and you dont mind taking a bit more time you don't need labor at all, you could do it all for free which it doesn't take into account

But Wall of Stone and similar spells can't produce the skilled labor needed to turn what is essentially a chunk of stone into a functioning keep, including creating actual rooms, equipping it with furniture, adding fixtures and basic things like doors and other assorted stuff. Yes, you could do all that yourself, but it would take a lot more time than simply casting the spell.

Wall of Stone + Stone Shape could take care of the rooms and the other basic structures, but you still need furnishings then.