I wanna play a choker. (PEACH) {3.5}

[Draconi Redfir]

Edit: just a thanks to evryone who helped me out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10409632&postcount=26)

Allright, so I’m playing in a campaign, and while my current cleric has yet to pass on, i wanted to create a character ahead of time so i don’t waste an entire session getting him ready.


After seeing it in my DM's monster manual, i remembered that I’ve always wanted to play a choker, but never got around to it. so I’ve come up with the following; anything i should remove/edit? any assistance would be appreciated.

~~Final Result~~
Choker

Type: Aberration
Size: Small (3ft ish)
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, –2 Cha
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Darkvision: 60 ft
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Sticky Fingers +2 to grapple checks


Rejected ideas


Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Quickness: +1 standard or move action each round
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -4 attack bonus and –2 damage when using a weapon, -1 shield bonus when using a shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Constrict: 1d3+Str Bludgeoning damage to grappled opponent as a standard action
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d3+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Spider climb: can walk up walls and ceilings at 20ft per round without making a climb check if both hands are free, retains Dex modifier to armor class, can not use the run ability while climbing.

Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can move normally as a Swift Action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -4 attack bonus and –2 damage when using a weapon, -1 shield bonus when using a shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Constrict: 1d3+Str Bludgeoning damage to grappled opponent as a standard action
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d3+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Spider climb: can walk up walls and ceilings at 20ft per round without making a climb check if both hands are free, retains Dex modifier to armor class, can not use the run ability while climbing.

Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can move normally as a Swift Action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -3 attack bonus and –2 damage when using a weapon, -1 shield bonus when using a shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d3+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Spider climb: can walk up walls and ceilings at 20ft per round without making a climb check if both hands are free, retains Dex modifier to armor class, can not use the run ability while climbing.

Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Boneless limbs: A Choker is always unable to make charge attacks
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can make an additional 5 foot step each round as a swift action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks, +8 to climb checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -1 attack bonus, attack damage and shield bonus when attempting to use a weapon and/or or shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Climb speed 20: Gains a +8 bonus to climb checks* and may choose to take 10 while climbing, even if rushed or threatened. If it chooses to make an accelerated climb it moves at twice its climb speed at a -5 climb check penalty. Chokers are unable to run while climbing, and retains its Dex bonus to armour class(if any).
*Shown under "skill bonuses"

Choker

Type: Aberration
Size: Small (3ft ish)
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Wis, –2 Cha
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Darkvision: 60 ft
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Boneless limbs: A Choker is always unable to make charge attacks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
These aren’t hands: -1 attack bonus, attack damage and shield bonus when attempting to use a weapon and/or or shield.
Sticky Fingers +2 to grapple checks

[Gorgondantess]

Well... it's horribly broken. I mean, this is the greatest caster race ever, what with being able to cast 2 spells per round. Gaining 1 extra standard action per day is considered extremely powerful- getting one every round, well, that's just unjustifiable.
Beyond that, 10 foot reach on a small character and a climb speed makes this probably the best race ever, ever.
A more balanced choker can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7948874&postcount=17) (scroll down a bit) as a 2 level class. It's still not perfect- not nearly- but unless you know how to abuse it, it should work fine.

[Tvtyrant]

I could see allowing it for a Monk actually; it would help balance a core monk better.

[Draconi Redfir]

Allright so what if i reduced the spider climb to half speed (so 10ft), and made it only an extra move action at half speed per round? or i could probably remove the quickness thing altogether.

And chokers get the 10 reach because they have VERY long arms. though we could make it a medium-sized creature, but keep the 20ft movement speed (due to it having trouble moving on the ground), keep the 20ft climbing, and either make it only an additional move action or remove quickness altogether. Would that be more fair?

[Tvtyrant]

I would say remove the quickness, leave the reach and give it a bonus to movement. That would do the same thing as quickness in flavor terms, and wouldn't be nearly so powerful.

[Draconi Redfir]

bonus to movement how? like give it 30ft speed dispite being a small creature?

[Tvtyrant]

Something like that; or give it a flat +10 to whatever move it already has. So if you play a Barbarian or Monk choker you get even more extra movement. Alternatively you could give it the ability to move as a swift action instead of a move action; it can full attack after a move but not extra spells.

[Draconi Redfir]

allright, how's this?

Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can move normally as a Swift Action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -4 attack bonus and –2 damage when using a weapon, -1 shield bonus when using a shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Constrict: 1d3+Str Bludgeoning damage to grappled opponent as a standard action
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d3+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Spider climb: can walk up walls and ceilings at 20ft per round without making a climb check if both hands are free, retains Dex modifier to armor class, can not use the run ability while climbing.

[Land Outcast]

Instead of that "Spider Climb" thing you could give "Climb speed 10" to the race, as the regular choker has, and the typical bonus which comes along with climb speed:
Skills
A chokers has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

And... the Constrict attack makes little sense without the full +4 to grapple checks... I mean, even with the Str bonus and +2 Racial bonus factored in, a choker offers a -1 to grapple checks (and the race strongly favors classes like rogue or monk, with 3/4 attack bonus, so it will remain worse than a regular human until it gets Improved Grapple).

I'd remove Constrict and perhaps lessen by one point the penalties when using weapons; that'd be:Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Speed: 20ft (4 squares), Climb 10ft (2 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can move normally as a Swift Action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -3 attack bonus and –1 damage when using a weapon.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d3+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)

[Draconi Redfir]

i unno I’m kind of a fan of the spider climb thing, but removing constrict can definitely be done.

i'd rather not get rid of the spider climb, but if its just too overpowered i guess i could do so to balance things out.

[The Glyphstone]

It's not really overpowered so much as clumsy - inventing a new ability to do what already exists.

As an example, it'd be like giving a monster the following ability:
Heavy Smash (Ex): The Gribbly Thingamajig often makes wild swings, sacrificing accuracy to land more powerful blows. It can choose to take a penalty on any attack roll of at least 1 and no greater than its Base Attack Bonus, while adding a bonus to damage on successful hits equal to the penalty. If wielding a weapon in two hands, it doubles the bonus damage.

Ooooooor.....you could just give it Power Attack as a racial bonus feat.


Relevant to your monster - the 'spider climb' ability, is basically exactly the same effect as having a Climb speed 20ft., so there's no need to invent a whole new ability for that purpose.

[Draconi Redfir]

umm what?:smallconfused: it's not a new ability, it's from the SRD. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spider_Climb)

[Land Outcast]

Yep, it's form the SRD, but it doesn't previously exist as a Supernatural/Extraordinary ability...

That said, I see no problem... just that is isn't elegant.

Instead of giving the Choker:
climb speed 10 (or an improved 20)
as the one in the Monster Manual, you are giving him:
an ability
which reproduces a spell
which gives him climb speed 20

[Draconi Redfir]

Well i just figured since Chokers spend all their lives hanging from walls and rooftops and the like, it would seem more natural and flow together better if they had an ability that allowed them to climb walls and roofs without requiring climb checks. Spider climb was the only way i knew of to do that.

[Land Outcast]

Oh, now I get it, you are actually improving the original creature's climbing ability (beyond the 10ft-20ft thing).
Sorry, I was criticizing without understanding of what you aimed at.

[Draconi Redfir]

well mostly i just didin't want to make climbcheck evry time i try to stay in charicter and climb a wall or something, i am notoriusly bad at dice rolls :P


so how's this? i removed constrict and lowered the attack bonus reduction. maybe i could increase the grapple bonus to +4 or something? maybe increase the damage penalty to +3 to match the attack bonus penelty?


Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can move normally as a Swift Action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -3 attack bonus and –2 damage when using a weapon, -1 shield bonus when using a shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d3+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Spider climb: can walk up walls and ceilings at 20ft per round without making a climb check if both hands are free, retains Dex modifier to armor class, can not use the run ability while climbing.

[The Glyphstone]

well mostly i just didin't want to make climbcheck evry time i try to stay in charicter and climb a wall or something, i am notoriusly bad at dice rolls :P


Well, that's what having a climb speed does :) - you usually get a racial bonus, and can always take 10 on the check.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, that's what having a climb speed does :) - you usually get a racial bonus, and can always take 10 on the check.

Yep. Basically, the racial ability just makes sure you can't climb upside down on an overhanging greased wall during a hailstorm, for instance...something the Spider Climb spell would allow, and something that doesn't make sense for a natural creature to be able to do.

I'd go with the nature Climb speed here instead of the Spider Climb ability.

Continuing...the penalties to using weapons strike me as fairly limiting, given how weak the natural attack is. Perhaps find some other way to balance out the reach, as otherwise you'll find a lot of people avoiding the race. Flat -X to things is always a tricky proposition when it's something like this. Swift Movement is also one of the single strongest LA 0 racial abilities I've ever seen someone try to give a class, and, as such, I think you might need to replace that with something else, 'cause it's a very powerful ability.

[Draconi Redfir]

All right so how's this? i boosted the tentacle damage, reduced swift movement to only an additional 5 foot step, removed any ability to charge, added a climb bonus, replaced spider climb with climb speed 20, and reduced these-aren’t-hands to -1's all around. any better?

Choker

+2Str, +2Dex, -2 Int –2 Cha
Small (3ft ish)
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Boneless limbs: A Choker is always unable to make charge attacks
Darkvision: 60 ft
Swift Movement: Can make an additional 5 foot step each round as a swift action
Skill bonuses: +2 to hide and move silently checks, +4 to climb checks
Reach: 10ft
These aren’t hands: -1 attack bonus, attack damage and shield bonus when attempting to use a weapon and/or or shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Climb speed 20: Can climb up walls or ceilings without making climb checks if conditions are good
Solid grip: A choker can choose to take 10 while making climb checks, even if in a rushed or threatened state

[Land Outcast]

[...]+4 to climb checks
[...]
Solid grip: A choker can choose to take 10 while making climb checks, even if in a rushed or threatened state

Heh, actually these two are already a given the moment you wrote "climb speed":

Climb
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.

[Draconi Redfir]

wait you mean haveing a climb speed still requires me to make climb checks? dangit!>.<

[Land Outcast]

Well... yes, but if you consider the +8 bonus, the racial +2 to Strength (resulting in +1 modifier):

By "taking 10" you can beat climb checks of up to 19 (that is, not requiring you to roll)... without considering further strength bonus or ranks in the climb skill... I think that's some great climber.

Just for reference:


DC 10 A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging.
DC 15 Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
DC 20 An uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins.
DC 25 A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
DC 25 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds.
By level three (6 ranks in Climb plus your starting +9: taking 10 --> 25) you wouldn't need make any check unless some dire situation arises.

[Draconi Redfir]

hmmm... and the charicters in the game are allready level seven.... *evil grin*


*updated*


allrighty now, anything else?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

allrighty now, anything else?

Getting much better. Still very strong for LA +0 though. I'd do this, personally:


Choker

Type: Aberration
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int –2 Cha
Size: Small
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Speed: 25 feet (4 squares)
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural Weapon: Tentacle (1d4+Str)


This is probably around +0 LA, or at least close to it. The speeds are taken from the Choker, and increased by 5ft due to the weaker Quickness. The reach ability was tied to Swift actions like the Swift Movement ability to prevent the race from being forever immune to Sneak Attacks, as well as to prevent Attack of Opportunity shenanigans with the improved reach (which lasts for just the Choker's turn.

[Draconi Redfir]

Getting much better. Still very strong for LA +0 though. I'd do this, personally:


Choker

Type: Aberration
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int –2 Cha
Size: Small
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Speed: 25 feet (4 squares)
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks
Natural Weapon: Tentacle (1d4+Str)


This is probably around +0 LA, or at least close to it. The speeds are taken from the Choker, and increased by 5ft due to the weaker Quickness. The reach ability was tied to Swift actions like the Swift Movement ability to prevent the race from being forever immune to Sneak Attacks, as well as to prevent Attack of Opportunity shenanigans with the improved reach (which lasts for just the Choker's turn.


Allright, i'm not a fan of tieing the reach to the swift action, but it seems fair. just not entirely sure. how's this look?

Choker

Type: Aberration
Size: Small (3ft ish)
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Wis, –2 Cha
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Darkvision: 60 ft
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Boneless limbs: A Choker is always unable to make charge attacks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
These aren’t hands: -1 attack bonus, attack damage and shield bonus when attempting to use a weapon and/or or shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks


ok might be a bit much

[The Glyphstone]

Looks fairly balanced, actually. Those mental stats basically say 'lol no casting for you', but it makes a fairly decent melee fighter, and having both the extra reach and the free 5-ft step makes for an interesting choice each round, since they consume swift actions and you can only get one of them under most circumstances.

Only change I'd make is to rename Improved Grab to, say, "Sticky Fingers". Improved Grab is an existing ability that gives free grapple attempts on melee hits, and it would get confusing.

[Draconi Redfir]

Done. gunna wait for a few more opinions before presenting it to my GM and asking him if it's ok

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Allright, i'm not a fan of tieing the reach to the swift action, but it seems fair. just not entirely sure. how's this look?

Choker

Type: Aberration
Size: Small (3ft ish)
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Wis, –2 Cha
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Darkvision: 60 ft
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Boneless limbs: A Choker is always unable to make charge attacks
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
These aren’t hands: -1 attack bonus, attack damage and shield bonus when attempting to use a weapon and/or or shield.
Improved grab: +2 to grapple checks


ok might be a bit much

To much? Nope...this is just what I presented, only with an extra Tentacle attack (which isn't that valuable, honestly, although you upped the damage), and the Boneless Limbs and These Aren't Hands penalties, which I personally don't think are necessary. That said, I'd allow it as presented, although I must say I like the "fewer penalty" version I presented above better.

Glyphstone is right about the Improve Grab ability though...that will need a change of name.

[Draconi Redfir]

allready did so in the first post.

the boneless limbs and these arent hands penaltys are mostly added for flavor. TBH i dont think a creature with tenticle fingers would be able to hold a sword very well, and chargeing someone while hanging upsidedown seems kind of silly IMO... though then again...


kinda just added them to make up for the 10ft reach though, now that its optional, maybe i could allow charges...

Edit: ... wonder if i could do something to add a tenticle attack to a flurry of blows or something...

[Zaydos]

I'd allow charges. That's just my 2 cents though.

[Draconi Redfir]

Just gunna bump this up one last time before i let it die. Do you think chokers should be able to charge? Y/N?

[Gullintanni]

I don't see a reason to deny them charging. The real thing can charge without issue, why shouldn't you? :smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Just gunna bump this up one last time before i let it die. Do you think chokers should be able to charge? Y/N?

Yes. I would also allow them to use weapons without penalty, and lift the -2 Wisdom penalty. The bonuses the race get are nice, but I think you've started over-penalizing them for the sake of "flavor". A creature with tentacle fingers should be able to hold something well, albeit in a manner which is alien to us (wrapping fingers around the hilt of a swrd several times, for example. That's flavorful (visually striking compared to a human, for instance) without causing penalties.

[Roak Star]

I would like to refer you to this amazing handbook I found on just this subject:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8069.0

[Draconi Redfir]

all right, here's what might be the final version. i was thinking of adding something similar to constrict like in the webpage just linked so i could play a stealthy choker who picks up enemies one by one without them making a sound, but i could always just say i pick them up by the throat and cover their mouths so they cant scream for the same effect.

Choker

Type: Aberration
Size: Small (3ft ish)
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, –2 Cha
Skill Bonuses: +2 to Hide and Move Silently.
Slow speed: (20ft/ 4 squares)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Darkvision: 60 ft
Climb Speed: 15 feet* (*Chokers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.)
Lashing Arms: As a Swift action, a Choker can extend its natural reach by 5 feet until the end of its turn.
Swift Movement: As a Swift action, a Choker may take a 5-foot step, even if it has already taken a 5-foot step this turn.
Natural weapon; Tentacle: 1d6+Str (melee) (can use twice as a full-round action)
Sticky Fingers +2 to grapple checks


How's it look? if the GM accepts it then all i need to do is come up with a class. sneaky-type seems natural, so perhaps a rouge/assassin, though i kind of want to have a cloaker as a pet sooo... maybe four levels of druid?:smalltongue:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The only issue now is that two free 1d6 + Str mod attacks is a bit strong at early levels. I'd either limit this to 1 attack, or decrease the damage to 1d4 and treat them like normal natural weapons, but that's just me. If it works for you, you can definitely run with it the way you presented it.