PDA

View Full Version : Cleric build, advice needed.



Raimun
2011-02-13, 08:21 AM
So, I'm making a Cleric and I have 10 levels to use. I've already figured out most of it (divine metamagic, yay!) but I think I want some melee capability as well, because I think the character's story calls for some warrior spirit.

I really can't decide between these two options:

1) Pick War Domain.
Pros:
-I could be a full cleric
-One Proficiency is usually enough

Cons:
-There are better Domains

2) Take a Fighter level
Pros:
-I could use all Martial weapons (random loot)
-I could also get a Feat ie. Power attack (used with Cleric-spells)

Cons:
-Spell progression slows down a bit

What would you do?

Saintheart
2011-02-13, 08:43 AM
War Domain will probably give you the fighter feel without having to sacrifice a level to the god of Melee Can't Have Nice Things. :)

You've figured out Divine Metamagic. This is the most basic (ab)use, but consider Divine Power, which is the 4th-level War domain spell. Pull DMM (Persistent) shenanigans and you are a fighter in the only thing that matters: BAB. Power Attack's not the be-all and end-all of life as a melee'er, and unless you're using two-handed weapons -- which most clerics don't or can't -- you're not utilising that feat to its maximum, either.

One random thought: consider Complete Champion and the Holy Warrior reserve feat: as long as you've got Divine Power or better memorised, you get at least a +4 on your damage rolls, if not better.

I've heard good things about Ordained Champion as a PrC available for a cleric fairly early on -- essentially that it turns you into a paladin, only better.

archon_huskie
2011-02-13, 09:30 AM
consider the character's personality

If taking a level of fighter would reflect your character's spending more time focusing on martial combat than go for it.

If taking the War Domain would reflect your character's devotion to a martial diety then you should go for that.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-13, 11:21 AM
The benefits of a Fighter level aren't up to the extra spells you'd get continuing with Cleric. What you should consider instead is a prestige class that advances divine spellcasting and also provides some extra benefits. Cleric is a heavily front-loaded class, and afterward you get very little other than full spellcasting. (The exception is undead turning, the power of which is dependent on your Cleric levels.)

erikun
2011-02-13, 12:51 PM
I happen to like my Fighter/Clerics, even if they do lose a bit of power by taking levels if Fighter. You probably don't want more than 2 Fighter levels, though, unless you want Weapon Specialization for some reason. (It really isn't worth it.) The pure Cleric with a War domain works well with Divine Power + Righteous Might, especially persisted and with other buffs, but you'll find that most DMs enjoy using randomly placed antimagic fields with such a character. Cleric/Fighter has a better weapon selection and is much more "stable" - meaning his ability can't just be dispelled - and you can get by with a buff or two less on the character. The whole party appreciates it more when you're spreading around Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestments rather than just Righteous Might on yourself.

Another option to consider is a gish prestige class. Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator works wonders, especially if you can convince the DM to remove the Wee Jas requirement. Even with losing the Shadow Hand school, you're a near full caster with full BAB and maneuvers - far better than a pure Cleric in combat, and with less need to rely on Divine Power. Another option, if you wish to play such a character and the DM will allow it, is the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin). You will probably only want one level unless you feel like going "full Paladin", but you get to add the Paladin's full spell list to your own (great for stuff like Align Weapon or an earlier Greater Magic Weapon) and can enter the class after only 6 levels of Cleric.

I'm not sure if there is a full BAB + 8/10 progression (or better) prestige class for the standard Fighter/Cleric. You might think so, but I guess the designers realized just how good the Cleric was at that point. I am familiar with the Enlightened Fist prestige class (full BAB, 8/10 progression), although that is a Monk/Cleric entry.

Psyren
2011-02-13, 01:07 PM
The benefits of a Fighter level aren't up to the extra spells you'd get continuing with Cleric. What you should consider instead is a prestige class that advances divine spellcasting and also provides some extra benefits. Cleric is a heavily front-loaded class, and afterward you get very little other than full spellcasting. (The exception is undead turning, the power of which is dependent on your Cleric levels.)

Curmudgeon is correct. I would start with Prestige Paladin 1 - giving you +1 BAB, +1 CL and adding the paladin list to yours. Very good dip if its available.

Elric VIII
2011-02-13, 01:09 PM
I'm going to give +1 to Ordained Champion. If you start with the War domain, the only other prereq you need is K (religion) 7 ranks. Also, it grants you an exra domain (War or any other if you already have War). You also gain the ability to spontaneously cast War domain spells instead of Cure/Inflict; pair this with Holy Warrior and you gain bonus damage on all attacks equal to your highest level unused spell (since you can always cast War spells). And, as an added bonus you can gain Fighter feats by trading in your domain powers. That's all just from 1 level, although the class is 3/5 casting it's great for martial Clerics.

As for weapons, the base damage does not matter too much past level 7-8, since this is when magic items and buffs really start kicking in. Remember, you can always wield any one-handed (not light) weapon in two hands to get 1.5*Str to damage and the ability to PA for 2 per -1 attack.

Waker
2011-02-13, 01:19 PM
If you want a cleric dedicated to battle you could also go with the War Priest. You lose some spellcasting but you gain some nice things like a bonus domain. It's a d10 HD and full attack progression.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-13, 02:18 PM
I'm just curious, what do you think you need for your character to feel more like a warrior? You should have DMM: Persistent Divine Power and Divine Favor, thus making him a strong and capable warrior, and you can use weapons like a heavy mace, morningstar, spear, or even swing your fist wearing a gauntlet. What more than this makes more of a warrior? Weapon Focus? Proficiency in every weapon you ever find? He can be a capable and accomplished warrior just swinging a mace, or get a magical rod that functions as a mace and has additional special abilities. So a Fighter can proficiently swing any weapon he picks up, but can any of those weapons do this?!... Any character can act like a tough, fearless warrior regardless of what classes, domains, or feats you take. Any Cleric can be a capable warrior with Divine Power and Righteous Might, so there's no need to go beyond that if it makes the character weaker in other areas.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-13, 03:33 PM
A level of Sacred Exorcist doubles your turn attempts. It makes Persistent Spell an actual option at your level. Just make sure you focus on those Knowledge ranks!

Vangor
2011-02-13, 03:40 PM
A level of Sacred Exorcist doubles your turn attempts. It makes Persistent Spell an actual option at your level. Just make sure you focus on those Knowledge ranks!

Sacred Exorcist does not double your turn attempts. SE levels stack with any other TU class levels to determine effective turning level. You would need to have rebuke, which would be difficult alongside the good requirement of SE.

Aemoh87
2011-02-13, 03:56 PM
Plus Nightsticks are available in most campaigns. Crafting/Purchasing those is always a fantastic idea!

herrhauptmann
2011-02-13, 07:42 PM
5 levels of factotum grants more turning. I think 3+wis mod. Although those 5 levels really aren't practical outside a gestalt game. Also grants a lot of skills and trapfinding. Arcane dilettante isn't really effective with so few levels in factotum.

navar100
2011-02-15, 02:57 PM
Class options:

Stay single class cleric. Clerics get nice buff spells. Play human for the extra feat. You don't need fighter.

Prestige Class options:

Church Inquisitor: Full spellcasting, keep Turn Undead, +4 to dispel, compulsion immunity, dispel illusions.

Sacred Exorcist if the campaign has lots of demons and devils. It works against undead too if you prefer instead, but Radiant Servant of Pelor is a better anti-undead prestige class.

Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana. You are a level behind in Smite Evil and Lay On Hands than a PHB paladin of equal level, but you have better spell progression and spells. You enter it at 6th level. Enter as a 4/1 fighter/cleric if you prefer a more martial character than the desire for spellcasting. Enter as a 2/3 fighter/cleric if you want more spellcasting. Note you don't get the full spellcasting as a single-class cleric, but it's still a lot more than PHB Paladin.

Feat options:

Power Attack: If you want it, take it at 6th level when you'll have some BAB to make use of it. At 7th level when you can cast Divine Power, go to town with it. You can use your weapon two-handed even if it isn't a greatsword or battleaxe.

If you really, really want to be able to cast spells in threatened areas as you engage in melee, take Combat Casting and Skill Focus Concentration. Some people would say only take Skill Focus, but by having both and a 14 CON, maxing Concentration allows you to always make the defensive casting roll for your highest level spell even on a 1 starting at 4th level. If you only take Skill Focus that doesn't happen for your highest level spell. It is a two-feat commitment but by playing a human you get it over with at 1st level.

Divine Metamagic is great, but use it for Quicken Spell instead of Persistent. Persistent requires a lot of Turn Undead which is heavy commitment. You'll need Extra Turning Feat and Persistent Spell requires Extend spell, a heavy feat commitment. If you use it on Quicken Spell, you may still want Extra Turning. Using Quicken Spell will net you the equivalent result in combat had you used Persistent Spell because it's a swift action. In addition, you can use it on any spell you want instead of specific ones as Persistent Spell demands, giving you flexibility. As a human you can take Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic to quicken spells at 1st level.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-15, 03:08 PM
Sacred Exorcist does not double your turn attempts. SE levels stack with any other TU class levels to determine effective turning level. You would need to have rebuke, which would be difficult alongside the good requirement of SE.

Crud, okay. Thanks for pointing that out.

Morbis Meh
2011-02-15, 03:38 PM
If you want a PrC that will give you access to Martial Wpn Prof, then I suggest the Radiant Servant of "Insert Sun God here". You drop to a d6 HD but you get a few nice perks, an extra domain, some healing buffs, and the ability to have all of your turn attempts be improved turning attempts. There are some lame requirements but one shouldn't matter (Extra Turning) since you are going the DMM route. Another dip worth mentioning is 1 in contemplative, if you can manage it pick up spell domain so you can persist wraith strike via anyspell.

Kylarra
2011-02-15, 04:05 PM
Strictly speaking you could trade out Turn Undead for Destroy Undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and then gain Turn Undead back again from Sac Ex to double up on your TU uses, but that's a bit cheesy.

Vangor
2011-02-15, 04:48 PM
Strictly speaking you could trade out Turn Undead for Destroy Undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and then gain Turn Undead back again from Sac Ex to double up on your TU uses, but that's a bit cheesy.

Lightbringer Cleric 7/Dread Necromancer 1/Sacred Exorcist for DU/RU/TU. Have to be neutral when you enter DN and good when you enter SE, which is simple; biggest issue is the acceptance by the church after doing such due to the description of DN alignment. Could enter a level early if you find a way to get dismissal early, and another level if you can make K(Planes) a DN class skill, such as being an Elf with Aereni Focus (ECS I believe).

Granted, if you're doing this, be a spelldancer with the incarnum vest and use healing lorecall.

Leon
2011-02-16, 09:20 AM
consider the character's personality

If taking a level of fighter would reflect your character's spending more time focusing on martial combat than go for it.

If taking the War Domain would reflect your character's devotion to a martial diety then you should go for that.

This is important.

Don't let spells/caster levels stop you playing what you really want to play.

Achernar
2011-02-16, 10:05 AM
I guess this question boils down to the character's background and personality. Generally, I advise not gimping your CL, and if you are going to dip one level in a core martial class for proficiencies, go ranger for extra skills, favored enemy and Track. Those are often handy.

If you want a little more punch than a typical cleric, use divine power- it turns you into a cleric with full BAB and extra strength and constitution. That plus cleric's abjurations and greater magic weapon turns you into a war machine-- and all of these are on the War domain list. I prefer this method if it is at all possible: in 3.5, more magic = more options = more fun (usually).

archon_huskie
2011-02-16, 07:35 PM
I guess this question boils down to the character's background and personality. Generally, I advise not gimping your CL, and if you are going to dip one level in a core martial class for proficiencies, go ranger for extra skills, favored enemy and Track. Those are often handy.


There is a feat for this Practiced Caster (Divine). It allows you to use non-caster classes to raise your Caster Level for one of your other classes. It believe it is a maximum of 4 class levels. It does not grant extra spells though.