Am I the only one who is into rap?

[FlashRah]

I like music.

I do. What did the subtle avatar of a idealised version of myself holding a frickin' Bob Dylan record confuse you? Good. And as a liker of music I like to think my tastes are pretty diverse. I love rock, folk, metal, jazz, soul, punk whatever whatever. But one genre I adore is rap and that's where this tale kinda twists.

It is my observation that the general concensus on the internet is that rap is the single most vile, unlistenable dreck that has ever been produced. Now I can understand a few people saying this, no genre has the entire world as its fanbase, but the sheer volume is what struck me. Entire threads mercilessly devoted to ripping it a new one, hate art abounds, blog post after blog post spewing hate like none has seen.

My biggest question is why? Rap isn't perfect for sure. No genre is. Is there something I'm missing? A few of my friends claim that radio rap might be causing this but I don't know because I don't listen to the radio. Is there anyone else out there who appreciates this genre as much (or perhaps more) than I?

Oh and before I forget. I'm not referring to any instances on GITP. In fact that's why I'm posting this here. You guys seem to be the most unbiased forum to bring this to.

[Sneak]

Is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHmSLSeBRP0) this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNDcEaC1xkg) a (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvAJ_s_C1Mw) sufficient (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sBI60bV-A8) answer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR2BboZeLEw)?

There are some rap appreciators around these parts. Here's a link to the previous Hip Hop thread, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168702) although it didn't last very long.

Anyway, rap's certainly not my preferred genre, but a lot of it is great. I think a lot of the hate comes from ****ty bitches an' hoes gangsta rap like Fitty Cent. Which is apparently played on the radio? Although I never listen to the radio either so I wouldn't know.

[loopy]

Check out some Aussie rap and hiphop while you are at it:

Seth Sentry: (Up an coming Melbourne MC, friend of mine)
Train Catcher (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaF_X6Fhv7w)
The Waitress Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqEC_4qDo0)

Bliss N Eso: (Big Aussie Artists, from my region)
The Children of the Night (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOMras1b87Y)
The Sea Is Rising (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWiAuIygfl8&feature=fvst)

Phrase: (I just like the song)
Clockwork (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJz6GPvyf4I)

Tell me what you think. (Btw, Seth Sentry's EP and the Bliss N Eso albums are well worth downloading)

[Renegade Paladin]

Am I the only one who is into rap?

Yes. :smalltongue:

The problem here is that you seem to be laboring under the preconception that rap is music at all, when this is blatantly not the case. Rather, it is a strange concoction of criminals or criminal-wannabes talking about how they're going to shoot people (or shoot at people, since it is wildly unlikely that a gunman will hit his target while holding his weapon sideways at an off angle), sell and/or use illegal drugs, and commit rape (or alternatively engage the services of a prostitute) with a drumbeat (or more commonly a beatbox) coincidentally in the background, with no sign of melody or harmony (which are, in addition to rhythm which it admittedly has, essential components of music) anywhere to be heard. In fact, Weird Al made an observation on this in his parody "White and Nerdy," in which he states "Here's the part I sing on," when transitioning to the chorus. :smallwink: (Also, his faux-interview with one Marshall Mathers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7sfeyd7j-8) is comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:)

[loopy]

The problem here is that you seem to be laboring under the preconception that rap is music at all, when this is blatantly not the case. Rather, it is a strange concoction of criminals or criminal-wannabes talking about how they're going to shoot people (or shoot at people, since it is wildly unlikely that a gunman will hit his target while holding his weapon sideways at an off angle), sell and/or use illegal drugs, and commit rape (or alternatively engage the services of a prostitute) with a drumbeat (or more commonly a beatbox) coincidentally in the background, with no sign of melody or harmony (which are, in addition to rhythm which it admittedly has, essential components of music) anywhere to be heard. In fact, Weird Al made an observation on this in his parody "White and Nerdy," in which he states "Here's the part I sing on," when transitioning to the chorus. :smallwink: (Also, his faux-interview with one Marshall Mathers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7sfeyd7j-8) is comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:)

I understand that you are exaggerating for the purposes of humor, but listen to the songs I've linked and then tell me that rap is all done by criminals talking about killing each other.

[Sneak]

Yes. :smalltongue:

The problem here is that you seem to be laboring under the preconception that rap is music at all, when this is blatantly not the case. Rather, it is a strange concoction of criminals or criminal-wannabes talking about how they're going to shoot people (or shoot at people, since it is wildly unlikely that a gunman will hit his target while holding his weapon sideways at an off angle), sell and/or use illegal drugs, and commit rape (or alternatively engage the services of a prostitute) with a drumbeat (or more commonly a beatbox) coincidentally in the background, with no sign of melody or harmony (which are, in addition to rhythm which it admittedly has, essential components of music) anywhere to be heard. In fact, Weird Al made an observation on this in his parody "White and Nerdy," in which he states "Here's the part I sing on," when transitioning to the chorus. :smallwink: (Also, his faux-interview with one Marshall Mathers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7sfeyd7j-8) is comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:)

The problem with this viewpoint is not only that it is ridiculously narrow and close-minded, but that it's just blatantly false.

The type of rap you are talking about (the only type you are familiar with, apparently) is such a small percentage of the genre as a whole that dismissing rap's creative value on that basis is akin to dismissing all rock as derivative dreck because of that one Nickelback song you heard once that sucked.

Just listen to this and tell me that it is not music. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7_jbluF0qo)

It may not be music that you enjoy, but denying its status as music is a pointless, unproductive exercise in arrogance, artificial exclusivity, and elitism.

EDIT: And Loopy, I will listen to the stuff you posted shortly. Interested.

[shadow_archmagi]

The problem with this viewpoint is not only that it is ridiculously narrow and close-minded, but that it's just blatantly false.


The problem with this viewpoint is that you missed the joke.

[Sneak]

Alas, my inability to find humor in musical elitism is truly my hamartia. How will I tell my parents?

[raitalin]

The problem with this viewpoint is that you missed the joke.

No, obvious joke is obvious. It's just not funny and filled with with the same hateful stereotypes it professes to declaim. If it were written by a fan of hip-hop to show how ridiculous hip-hop-hatred is, then it would be satire, and therefore funny.

Hip-hop, just like any genre, is mostly garbage. However some of it contains some of the most powerful expressions of emotion I've heard in music and some of it is incredibly positive and uplifting. And some of it is the most daring stuff in music today.

Powerful:

Lauryn Hill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktgHNJ4RmIY)

Eminem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLZFdqwh7E)

Positive:

KRS-one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaHqt7ixlkE)

Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4o8TeqKhgY)

Daring

The Roots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojC0mg2hJCc)

Outkast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVyVIsvQoaE)

And that's just the mainstream stuff.

[warty goblin]

I like rap conditionally, which is to say when I'm at work. Eminem is just the right combination of aggression, ridiculousness and profanity to get through a big dinner rush. That and he honestly does more complex things with rhythm and rhyme than just about anybody else. Outside of work I like rap much, much less.

Really the only stuff I can't stand is a lot of nerd rap. Somehow a bunch of scrawny geeks pretending to be badass for pirating movies just seems exceptionally pathetic.

[Renegade Paladin]

Really the only stuff I can't stand is a lot of nerd rap.
Read the subtitle. (http://www.youtube.com/user/RenegadePaladin#grid/user/20EAC33105A12BF9) :smalltongue:

[snoopy13a]

It is my observation that the general concensus on the internet is that rap is the single most vile, unlistenable dreck that has ever been produced. Now I can understand a few people saying this, no genre has the entire world as its fanbase, but the sheer volume is what struck me. Entire threads mercilessly devoted to ripping it a new one, hate art abounds, blog post after blog post spewing hate like none has seen.



I don't think it is the general consensus on the internet.

I like some rap music (and I dislike some rap music). For me, it basically depends on the song.

Overall, I am somewhat suspect of people who blatantly and universally hate rap music. I'm not going to delve anymore into it.

[warty goblin]

Read the subtitle. (http://www.youtube.com/user/RenegadePaladin#grid/user/20EAC33105A12BF9) :smalltongue:

I basically don't like metahumor of that sort or nerd culture.


Overall, I am somewhat suspect of people who blatantly and universally hate rap music. I'm not going to delve anymore into it.

I can actually understand how some people just don't like rap. It's got a pretty distinctive sound, if hard beats, minimal vocal range and sharp consonant rhythms aren't an appealing sound for a person, rap isn't going to hold much appeal. Even if the content doesn't bother somebody, its quite possible the sound simply doesn't appeal to some people.

[Orzel]

I was born in the mid '80s in Brooklyn, I have rap in my blood. I thought rock with nonsensical garbage for wimps until maybe 1995.

And I WEEP for what hip hop has become.

[101jir]

A lot of people do, and I do kindof get where they are coming from being the notes are not as emphasized as the lyrics, it doesn't bother me. I am more into rock, but I don't mind rap, and there is a bit that I like. I don't see why rock people hate it so much though, either one stresses the words and feel more than the notes. Both are aggressive. About the only difference I notice is that rock (at least what I listen to) tends to be more abstract, and all the rap that I have heard is very specific and concrete. Overall, I am good with rap.

[FlashRah]

And I WEEP for what hip hop has become.

See. I don't know what you mean by that. Some of the best music released recently has been rap. The best album of 2010 by a wide margin was Kanye West's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. Then you had releases like Sir Lucious Leftfoot kicking ass too.

[Renegade Paladin]

The problem with this viewpoint is not only that it is ridiculously narrow and close-minded, but that it's just blatantly false.

The type of rap you are talking about (the only type you are familiar with, apparently) is such a small percentage of the genre as a whole that dismissing rap's creative value on that basis is akin to dismissing all rock as derivative dreck because of that one Nickelback song you heard once that sucked.
I didn't deny it's creative value. It's certainly poetry, but it isn't musical.

[Orzel]

See. I don't know what you mean by that. Some of the best music released recently has been rap. The best album of 2010 by a wide margin was Kanye West's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. Then you had releases like Sir Lucious Leftfoot kicking ass too.

I weep because rap only gets about one new star a year. Because of averages, you only get a good new artist every 3 years or so. So you hear the same voices all the time and hope the good ones stay good.

Rap never developed subgenre like other music styles. So its the same 20 guys, this years newbie, and all the underground guys.

[LCR]

Short answer: I like some rap (mostly old school, Beastie Boys) and I don't like most of modern rap/hip-hop.

Long answer: I find mainstream rap/hip-hop, especially of the so-called "gangster" variety, to be bland, derivative, violent, misogynistic, uneducated and utterly underclass. I can't relate to the artists, their lyrics or their environment and I find the attitude of most rappers (there are some exceptions) lacks both self-awareness and self-irony.
Some in the black community claim that jazz and rock'n'roll as race specific means of cultural expression were highjacked by white culture, rap music was highjacked by idiots.


Note that this is my personal opinion of rap music and most, if not all arguments made against rap music can be made against popular music in general, not just rap.

[Sneak]

I didn't deny it's creative value. It's certainly poetry, but it isn't musical.

But that's just not true either.

Listen to this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d7BKvBChlM) It's not rap itself, but it is Dan the Automator's instrumental backing track for the rap song that I posted earlier in my first response to your post.

By itself, this instrumental track would qualify as music.

So, with rapping added to it, does it somehow become non-musical?

Honestly, that's ridiculous.

Yes, rapping alone is more akin to spoken word or slam poetry than traditional music. But the key here is that rap music does not consist solely of the vocal track. Thus, saying that "rap" is non-musical would be technically true—but "rap" in the sense that we are using it is a shorthand to refer to rap music, production and all, and not just the vocal track.

Which is why saying that rap is non-musical is overly reductive to the point of falsehood.

[AshDesert]

See. I don't know what you mean by that. Some of the best music released recently has been rap. The best album of 2010 by a wide margin was Kanye West's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. Then you had releases like Sir Lucious Leftfoot kicking ass too.

I know you said you don't listen to the radio, but rap on the radio is so samey and derivative that it's getting hard to tell when one song ends and where another begins.

I'm not huge into rap myself, but I've heard a few good artists. What I don't like is the culture associated with gangster rap in particular, but there's really not much that can be done to change it, but then again, I don't nightclub culture and love EDM itself. Saying you don't like an entire genre of music is just silly.

[zeratul]

Being from Syracuse I hear rap a lot but it's not something I actively seek out all that much. Freestyle rappers who don't suck are always impressive, and it's always interesting when two people start doing that in the middle of say, a math class. In terms of stuff I actually listen to on a regular bassist, theres Afro Man and Rage Against the Machine, and the occasional Public Enemy song, and occasionally me and my friends will listen to tupac (mostly to mock it although some of it is good). The genre can certainly be very good and I certainly understand the appeal, even of some of the gangsta rap stuff, but I don't think its the cup of tea of many nerdy types

[Moff Chumley]

*cough*

Between stuff like MF Doom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNDYgzrB1UY), Aesop Rock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe1ef9J6EbE), Mos Def (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5LpDUuwYbE), and Del tha Funkee Homosapien (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFieSQHmQT0), it's very difficult to universally hate rap.

[SDF]

The best album of 2010 by a wide margin was Kanye West's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy

I disagree with that so much it hurts me. And, I liked that album.


I didn't deny it's creative value. It's certainly poetry, but it isn't musical.

As much as it is used as pseudo-intellectual hipster wink wink tripe these days, whenever I see that line of reasoning I always have to go back to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3). Putting categorical limits on what music can be stifles it. It's only true limits lie with the creator and listener.

[AshDesert]

As much as it is used as pseudo-intellectual hipster wink wink tripe these days, whenever I see that line of reasoning I always have to go back to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3). Putting categorical limits on what music can be stifles it. It's only true limits lie with the creator and listener.

I'm sorry, but 4'33" is not music (in my opinion). While I do subscribe to a very broad interpretation of what music is, I think the performer should be doing SOMETHING. But, as with all art, what is and is not music is a personal thing, and trying to convince someone otherwise is a mostly futile task.

[SDF]

But by that logic Bach could, in your opinion, not be music.

[Worira]

And by your logic, my pinky finger could. Your point?

[SDF]

I missed the part where physical objects related to my axiom. That being that any noise can be interpreted as music. Even when I am playing rests I am still performing music.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

I'm not into rap musically, but I do find hyperbolically ludicrous gangsta rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4Vtv1srUM) utterly hilarious; in all probability this is because my existence in rural England has been so ridiculously far removed from that way of life that the sheer incongruity between me and the song is amazing. I'll listen to it and burst out laughing from the complete lack of sense it makes to me. :smalltongue:

[Erts]

I weep because rap only gets about one new star a year. Because of averages, you only get a good new artist every 3 years or so. So you hear the same voices all the time and hope the good ones stay good.

Rap never developed subgenre like other music styles. So its the same 20 guys, this years newbie, and all the underground guys.

Damn, I have never heard someone sum up an entire genre of music so succinctly. Nice job.
Agreed with Orzel.

[AtlanteanTroll]

listen to the songs I've linked and then tell me that rap is all done by criminals talking about killing each other.

It is. Just not all of it is. :smalltongue:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think it's weird that most of the people defending hip-hop still seem to hate all "gangsta" rap when MCs like Biggie and a lot of the early hardcore rappers that would fit under that descriptor are great.

Anyhow, there's good rap in a lotta different styles.

[Orzel]

Damn, I have never heard someone sum up an entire genre of music so succinctly. Nice job.
Agreed with Orzel.

Thanks.

And it's true.
At the moment; if you don't know a mainstream rapper already OR there is already mainstream rapper from your area, your chances of becoming a mainstream rapper is 0.01%. Any if you every do get to the mainstream, there's that maybe 80% chance your never get a hit second album.

But if you are lucky and get 1 hot radio single, in 5-10 years you can comeback.

Rap artists have it worse than rockers to me. If you don't know a famous musician, aren't famous already, don't live in an untapped area (I think the American Southwest and Northwest are the only places left), or aren't physically unique; you have zero chance right now and are doomed to underground.

[JonestheSpy]

I didn't deny it's creative value. It's certainly poetry, but it isn't musical.

Here's a hint - if you can dance to it, it's musical. Lots of music isn't for dancing of course, but if you can, it is.


I think it's weird that most of the people defending hip-hop still seem to hate all "gangsta" rap when MCs like Biggie and a lot of the early hardcore rappers that would fit under that descriptor are great.

Well you can put put me in the "Likes hip hop, hates gangsta" as well. I find it downright hateful, and seeing as how pop culture does in fact influence actual real-life behavior AND living in an urban neighborhood full of kids trying to emulate the behavior and attitudes gangsta glorifies, I regard as actively destructive as well. And btw, I regard the radio programmers and station networks that decide to play this stuff far more culpable than the artists.

The thing about early stuff is that it didn't dominate the airwaves the way gangsta does now, and bands like NWA and Biggie Smalls were producing stuff that was so musically catchy it was hard not to hum along regardless of content. I actually owned Straight Outta Compton for awhile, but after repeated listenings the message just was too revolting to enjoy the music. So yeah, they might be 'great' artists, but their music is really no different in the end than D.W. Griffith's silent film Birth of a Nation, regarded as a masterpiece of film making that unfortunately was all about glorifying the Ku Klux Klan, and is generally regarded as having resurrected that organization after it had almost disappeared.


Anyhow, there's good rap in a lotta different styles.

That, I agree with completely. Some artists who haven't been mentioned yet that I'm particularly fond of are Paris, Public Enemy, the Beastie Boys, Narcicyst, and cartoonist and big-ol' science fiction geek Kieth Knight's group THe Marginal Prophets (http://www.myspace.com/marginalprophets).

Oh, and I gotta say, as far as intelligent, interesting songs, I still think you're going to find more of them within the genre of Hip hop than Metal, hands down. 'Course Hip Hop's a lot bigger than metal, but even on a per-capita basis I think Hip Hop still wins.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Well you can put put me in the "Likes hip hop, hates gangsta" as well. I find it downright hateful, and seeing as how pop culture does in fact influence actual real-life behavior AND living in an urban neighborhood full of kids trying to emulate the behavior and attitudes gangsta glorifies, I regard as actively destructive as well. And btw, I regard the radio programmers and station networks that decide to play this stuff far more culpable than the artists.

The thing about early stuff is that it didn't dominate the airwaves the way gangsta does now, and bands like NWA and Biggie Smalls were producing stuff that was so musically catchy it was hard not to hum along regardless of content. I actually owned Straight Outta Compton for awhile, but after repeated listenings the message just was too revolting to enjoy the music. So yeah, they might be 'great' artists, but their music is really no different in the end than D.W. Griffith's silent film Birth of a Nation, regarded as a masterpiece of film making that unfortunately was all about glorifying the Ku Klux Klan, and is generally regarded as having resurrected that organization after it had almost disappeared.

I mean, I guess, but I think it's aesthetically irresponsible to look at art in a moralistic light, especially from a limited or outside perspective; numerous artists (with varying degrees of credulity), have stated that it isn't about glorifying a lifestyle, and much of the grimy imagery and depressed tone (one can consider a "gangsta" lifestyle glorified only dubiously when one considers how often Biggie mentions being suicidal, or Tupac's frequent and prophetic allusions to being murdered someday), is attractive and glorifying only to someone from outside, to whom the lifestyle provides a source of ~excitement unavailable in the tame environs of the suburban bourgeois; it's a more verisimilar analogue to the Might Makes Right logic of fantasy as a genre, in which violence is a solution to problems and, even moreso than in hip-hop, exists without moral culpability or even social culpability. While adding the verisimilutde such that it could be emulated in real life, a lot of hip-hop also notes the consequences much more fully; the problem is with the manner in which it is marketed, which downplays the latter. As you've said, the agency for social problems is less the artist than the programmer, label, and so-on. Further, many of those to whom it is marketed who were not already in the social situation it describes may more easily discount the consequences.

Really, at the end of the day, socio-economic conditions create the behaviors, while that style of rap is a (semi-apologist) attitude to addressing an already perceived necessity which, when its audience expanded beyond its original realm, removes the necessity and creates a cultural ideology of misunderstood and misrepresented stereotypes which, through the aformentioned programers and labels, is emphasized in an attempt to increasingly seize that wealthier market. Hence the change from instrospective, if nihilistic, lyrics to the more celebratory fawnings and posturing of more recent so-called gangsta successes.

EDIT: tl;dr: I agree with the last sentence of your first paragraph, but times like a million, and refer to only specific artists within the genre.

[Asthix]

Wow, VeisuIta, your erudition is big.:smallbiggrin:

If I may bring it back, I want to ask FlashRah if they make a distinction between Rap and Hip-Hop.

I'm old, so I got into hip-hop in the mid nineties. I quickly noticed that Hip-Hop stood out as a distinctive and separate style from Rap. Hip-hop seems more about storytelling, rap seems more about conflict. Hip-hop seems more about creation, rap seems more about destruction. I'm wondering if anyone else considers rap and hip-hop separate things?

Of course, I'm not saying that hip-hop can't be dark. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfCAZtVzqQo)

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Man, Buck 65 is up there with Envelope for people that I wish had taken off more than they did.

EDIT: To answer the overall question, rapping was always one of the pillars of hip-hop, to me, so I guess I wouldn't use them identically, but I wouldn't entirely separate them, either.

[AshDesert]

Wow, VeisuIta, your erudition is big.:smallbiggrin:

If I may bring it back, I want to ask FlashRah if they make a distinction between Rap and Hip-Hop.

Technically rapping is a form of singing while hip-hop refers to the music as a whole. In other words, rap is a facet of hip-hop and the terms have become interchangeable to a lot of people because rap is among the most identifiable parts of hip-hop.


But by that logic Bach could, in your opinion, not be music.

Yeah, pretty much. If your personal definition of music were "A series of sounds that affect ME personally emotionally" and Bach didn't affect you, then Bach wouldn't be music to you. That would be a very self-centric and narrow-minded definition of music, yes, but I believe each person should have their own definition of what is and is not art, and music is a facet of art. Just because someone's opinion is wrong doesn't mean they're not allowed to have it:smallwink:

[snoopy13a]

Wow, VeisuIta, your erudition is big.:smallbiggrin:

If I may bring it back, I want to ask FlashRah if they make a distinction between Rap and Hip-Hop.

I'm old, so I got into hip-hop in the mid nineties. I quickly noticed that Hip-Hop stood out as a distinctive and separate style from Rap. Hip-hop seems more about storytelling, rap seems more about conflict. Hip-hop seems more about creation, rap seems more about destruction. I'm wondering if anyone else considers rap and hip-hop separate things?

Of course, I'm not saying that hip-hop can't be dark. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfCAZtVzqQo)

I consider rap a subset of hip-hop. Thus, all rap is hip-hop but not all hip-hop is rap.

[raitalin]

"Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live." - KRS-one

Rapping is what an Emcee does, Hip-hop is is a form of musical expression and artistic culture that includes DJing, MCing, Graffiti, Break dancing and beatboxing.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Rap/Hip Hop, where you draw the line between them is tricky. I must say, I generally like Rap more than Hip Hop, which I like a good lot more than Pop music.

Eminem, for example, has been mentioned, on account of him being REALLY damn intelligent, and verrrrrrrr creative with his rhymes.
Then you have Taio Cruz and Soulja Boy and Akon and their ilk, who I honestly can't stand unless I'm drunk at a party or something.

[Orzel]

Rap is an aspect of the Hip hop culture.

Rap songs have a focus on the vocals mostly.
Hip hop songs uses aspects of the entire hip hop culture (vocals, DJing, sampling, etc).

Since rap is an aspect of hip hop, rap songs are still hip hop songs (just ones that are very focused on lyrics).

[The Extinguisher]

I find the big thing that people dislike as rap, is that the vocals aren't a melodic instrument, as they are in most music, and are a rhythm instrument. And that is really jarring for some people. I mean, could you think of a drumkit being used for a melody?

Metal tends to be same way.

[Marillion]

whenever I see that line of reasoning I always have to go back to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3). Putting categorical limits on what music can be stifles it. It's only true limits lie with the creator and listener.
4'33 is a great work of art, and can be profoundly moving in the right circumstances. But it isn't music.

[Makensha]

I'm not a huge fan of rap, but I find it fits well in small doses. To say it isn't music is entirely silly. Their voices are like a snare drum. Depending on what you do with it, it makes different sounds. Would you consider a drum ensemble music? Then why is rap not?

Anyways, going back to the OP.

1) No, your avatar does not confuse me.
2) Because people need something to put below them, and rap is an easy target.
3) I can't imagine there is.
4) I'm sure there are people who appreciate rap on the internet more than you, but they just keep there mouths shut because it causes more problems to talk about it then its worth.

The reasons for #2
A) Its popular with people who don't frequently visit sites like this one.
B) Its a foreign concept to them, as French Screamcore is completely foreign to me.
C) There are few people who will actually put up a fight if someone speaks down about it, and even then they are often simply outnumbered by a grevious ratio.
D) There is a lot of violence and gang activity related to rap.
E) It is easy to get off topic about and instead of discussing whether rap is good, the discussion and be changed to "is rap music?", which is easy to run in circles with.
F) People like to look like they are some refined music expert.

[Fjolnir]

Gangsta rap has changed over the years, it went from people making music about the hustle and trying to describe a broken urban environment to the outright glorification of the same culture that early rappers were trying to describe and get out of.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Then you have Taio Cruz and Soulja Boy and Akon and their ilk, who I honestly can't stand unless I'm drunk at a party or something.

I am saddened you put Taio Cruz next to Soulja Boy.

But, mostly, as I've gotten older I've found rap offends my senses less and less, and I can occasionally enjoy it.
Eminem has worked his way hard into my heart, as well as some of the older stuff that comes on on my Generation X radio station :smalltongue:
I wouldn't actively search for it, but I definitely don't groan and change the station immediately anymore.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I am saddened you put Taio Cruz next to Soulja Boy.

But, mostly, as I've gotten older I've found rap offends my senses less and less, and I can occasionally enjoy it.
Eminem has worked his way hard into my heart, as well as some of the older stuff that comes on on my Generation X radio station :smalltongue:
I wouldn't actively search for it, but I definitely don't groan and change the station immediately anymore.

Oh, I like the Taio Cruz songs a lot more than I like Soulja Boy, no lie, no competition. But compared to 50 Cent, Dr Dre, Eminem, that crowd, he doesn't hold up.

[Raistlin1040]

I think the only rap I listen to is Kanye, Gorillaz (which, the songs I have, is Del, Mos Def, and De La Soul), and a bit of Movits! In general, I dislike the sound, because I don't think the voice is a good rythym instrument and works far better as a melodic one, and that generally the music of rap is either a simple drum beat with a bassline or a far too lush keyboard/synth backing that sounds awful in my opinion.

I cannot stand Eminem either, and while he's a decent lyricist, I don't think he's anywhere as good as people say. His rhymes are clever, but being able to rhyme doesn't make you a lyrical genius.

[Jallorn]

I do not enjoy rap. I can respect it, but I do not enjoy it, and I do not consider it music.

Let me elaborate. I don't honestly have any real problem with rap, it's certainly an interesting art form, but I don't want to listen to it, not from what I've heard anyway. However, music, to me, is more than a base beat and poetry, which, again, is my impression of rap from what I've heard. I will agree that under a strict definition of music as "A carefully organized grouping of sounds, often with lyrics, that conveys emotion and/or ideas," rap is music. However, it does not meet my aesthetic qualities of music, and I simply consider it "Poetry with a beat." There is, after all, an overlap between poetry and music.

So no, I don't really like rap, but I do understand that it's not all crap, and there is skill, thought, and talent involved.

[Chambers]

My biggest question is why? Rap isn't perfect for sure. No genre is. Is there something I'm missing?

Magnets! How do they work?

---

I'm not completely against Rap, but when you've got people like the above (reference to an ICP song) making music...well, it's easy to see why Rap is pointed to as the low-talent area of music. People probably say at least the pop rocker can play his/her guitar, although Nickelback and Creed both have guitarists. Hmmm.

Also, for the record I do own 1 rap CD. Tech N9ne, Everready. I like how fast he can rap. That takes skill.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

The canon of music has a history of lines so stupid as to ruin all genres forever, if that's all it takes.


I do not enjoy rap. I can respect it, but I do not enjoy it, and I do not consider it music.

Let me elaborate. I don't honestly have any real problem with rap, it's certainly an interesting art form, but I don't want to listen to it, not from what I've heard anyway. However, music, to me, is more than a base beat and poetry, which, again, is my impression of rap from what I've heard. I will agree that under a strict definition of music as "A carefully organized grouping of sounds, often with lyrics, that conveys emotion and/or ideas," rap is music. However, it does not meet my aesthetic qualities of music, and I simply consider it "Poetry with a beat." There is, after all, an overlap between poetry and music.

So no, I don't really like rap, but I do understand that it's not all crap, and there is skill, thought, and talent involved.

I feel like this qualm comes from a narrow understanding of rap or a very, very broad understanding of beat; the objection, typically, is a lack of melody. Plenty of hip-hop songs have melody in addition to a beat. Unless one counts the melody as part of the beat, or just hasn't listened to more than, like, ten hip-hop songs, I really can't see how the "poetry and a beat" idea comes to exist.

[Kuma Da]

Bookmarking this thread, because the links look excellent.

I've only barely skimmed, and will be properly reading later, but it looks like nobody's brought up Aesop Rock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBGCOCxLgA) or Lupe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GQjYPWDcmg) yet. This must be corrected.

[FlashRah]

Wow, VeisuIta, your erudition is big.:smallbiggrin:

If I may bring it back, I want to ask FlashRah if they make a distinction between Rap and Hip-Hop.

Uhh... I've heard so many wildly different definitions of "hip hop" I've made it a rule now to never use that term anyhow. Everyone knows what rap is. Not everyone knows what hip hop is.

[Serpentine]

I like some rap and hip-hop, but it's definitely a genre I have to take on a case-by-case basis.
So, for example, I love Gorillaz and like Flobots and some others. I'm also enjoying some Australian hip-hop that's coming out lately. I also enjoyed some of Eminem's B-sides (and his popular stuff was fine enough) - I found them to be very much very dark poetry. But then...

Lets take Kanye West. For starters, as far as I'm able to tell he's a complete and utter... toolbag. Okay, I shouldn't really hold that against his music, but... Well, put it this way. I like some of Kanye's stuff. But, the bits I like, are the bits where he's not rapping. I like Kanye sans Kanye.
Another thing - which Kanye is very much guilty of - is all that sampling. They'll take a bit of a perfectly good song*, snag the best big, and play it in-between stretches of talking about stuff I'm not interested in. I know sampling isn't always a bad thing, and where it's used to construct something completely new (e.g. I'm a big fan of Avalanches) it can be great. But this just seems like... they're too lazy to make their own damn choruses, and often ruin it by association.
More generally, I just find it boring. A bunch of people talking about stuff over a beat of some sort. Doesn't do it for me.

So, yeah, I can say that rap and hip-hop aren't genres I like in and of themselves. But, there are some rap/hip-hop groups and individual songs I do like.


*One good thing about it is that it'll occasionally bring a good song to my attention that I otherwise would never know about. e.g. "Round, like a circle in as spiral, like a wheel within a wheel..."

[dehro]

some of it is good listening, a lot of it shoots to fame for no reason whatsoever..
I find it laughable when I find out that supabaddogkilla (or what have you) actually is a choirboy who still gets his bed made by his mum, but you get the same with rockstars posers too..
on the whole, what I do actively dislike is the fashion that comes with (buy the man some trousers that fit, ffs, he's got the money for it..).. the ridiculous attitude towards sex, money and in general the posing.. yeah, some of them are true bandits turned enterpreneurs, but that doesn't really nobilitate them either..
mind you, I love music but despise most of the people involved in making it, performing it and selling it..if nothing else, because of the wildly overblown sense of self and egomaniac attitudes that come with (especially so in pop, rap and rock..less so where there's less money to be made, I wonder why..)
so this may not be "against rap" per se..as it's a broader thing..it IS however true that most rappers who have some success...well..I look at them and think they're mostly playacting, one way or another.
anyhoo..yeah, there's some good rap out there..but not much..most of it just finds success because it's rap or because it's that particular singer/rapper who promotes the song.

then of course there's the thing about music genres that don't employ any actual music instruments... and the fact that most famous singers (again, not just rappers, maybe rappers less so than the rest) employ artificial means to "polish" their voices..hell..I'm sure that with the right producer and studio tech staff, even I could become an accomplished singer.
anyhoo..when I listen to good music I like to be able to tell there are actual instruments being played, and the voices are actually singing and doing something I wouldn't be able to do... more often than not, rappers don't really have any "voice talent" to speak off (and way too often they just use words that rhyme for the sake of the rhyme..not because they actually make sense)

I shall go back to my corner now..

[Psyren]

I for one am bookmarking this thread.

And yes, "talents" like Soulja Boy, ICP, and that **** Lil' Wayne have done their damndest to ruin Rap's credibility throughout their careers.

Meanwhile truly talented linguists like Jurassic 5 and Talib Kweli get one-tenth the attention they do, and still have to catch 90% of the flack.

[FlashRah]

that **** Lil' Wayne

Man. I thought The Carter II and Tha Carter III were awesome. His latest LPs are balls though. I'll grant you that.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Rap is probably one of the only genres I won't give the time of day. I don't care what the lyrics are, I just don't enjoy the music itself. Can't get into it and it makes me wince. It triggers my latent OCD in some manner and just seems... off. Even the best stuff.

I've heard maybe one or two that I sort of liked, but that's it.

And no, I don't want to go through a dozen pages of 'But this is different than the mainstream garbage, maybe you'll like it'. I could spend the rest of my life going through links to music types that I know I like, thanks.

Btw, yeah, I know rap isn't all thug, however, what is listened to in my area IS predominantly thug. It may be a minority of that available, but its listened to all out of proportion to the percentage. I worked at a place where I was maybe one of four white guys out of a work force predominantly black. I'd say 95% of them listened to thug rap. And only thug rap.

I'd get into, not really heated debates so much as good natured brawling over it, so I went into it with them. I verified it was indeed thug rap. We swapped some music, and I actually got a couple of them liking a bit of the classical.

Just because it's genre is a minority doesn't mean its not what is listened to by the majority.
Not downing it for being so, just stating a fact.

[Serpentine]

Hey VT, what do you think of Gorillaz? (I'd barely even realise it counts as rap, btw)

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Hey VT, what do you think of Gorillaz? (I'd barely even realise it counts as rap, btw)



And no, I don't want to go through a dozen pages of 'But this is different than the mainstream garbage, maybe you'll like it'. I could spend the rest of my life going through links to music types that I know I like, thanks.
:smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

That wasn't my question :smalltongue: I'm not saying "OMG you just don't like rap cuz you haven't heard this!", I'm wondering if you have an opinion on a pretty famous group.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Edit: However out of curiosity I looked through a half dozen or so songs. It definitely counts as rap and... yeah, I want to say some really excratory things about this... sound.

Gah...

[Serpentine]

Surprises me.
Alright, noted: Advise on film and maybe books, stay away from music.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'm a massive hip-hop fan, although I don't really listen to American hip-hop. 's all Aussie hip-hop for me.

My top three are Illy, Drapht, and Hilltop Hoods. ALL of them are worth listening too, and I'd advise them muchly.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Lets take Kanye West. For starters, as far as I'm able to tell he's a complete and utter... toolbag. Okay, I shouldn't really hold that against his music, but... Well, put it this way. I like some of Kanye's stuff. But, the bits I like, are the bits where he's not rapping. I like Kanye sans Kanye.
This may have something to do with Kanye being an absolutely abysmal rapper. Like, man. Really bad. He should just produce or something. As time goes on, his albums get better and better, except that the parts of them that are him get worse and worse.


Another thing - which Kanye is very much guilty of - is all that sampling. They'll take a bit of a perfectly good song*, snag the best big, and play it in-between stretches of talking about stuff I'm not interested in. I know sampling isn't always a bad thing, and where it's used to construct something completely new (e.g. I'm a big fan of Avalanches) it can be great. But this just seems like... they're too lazy to make their own damn choruses, and often ruin it by association.
Sampling is cool, but it really should only be used to augment a song (unless you're literally making music entirely out of samples, but that's a different genre), not make or break the song; the sample in Envelope's "I Decline" (which I would link, but is evidently too underground for google) comes in at the right moment, says the right thing, and gets back out so we can listen to Envelope's ridiculous flow some more. It's generally a bad sign if sampling is the best part of the song instead of a hook that comes in during a break from the vocals; samples are back-up singers and allusions rolled up into one, if they're done right.


so this may not be "against rap" per se..as it's a broader thing..it IS however true that most rappers who have some success...well..I look at them and think they're mostly playacting, one way or another.

I can't wait until you read Rousseau and hate all art. Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of rappers can do a lot of things of which I don't think a lot of vocalists would be capable.

Finally, I still fail to see what being "thug" or not has to do with being good.

[Psyren]

Man. I thought The Carter II and Tha Carter III were awesome. His latest LPs are balls though. I'll grant you that.

Because starting half of your songs off with the disclaimer "no homo" makes you a paragon of artistic maturity. :smallannoyed:

And his image... my god his image. He has managed to combine every visual cue that currently gives rappers a bad name. A grill that would have every Minecrafter reaching for a pickaxe (and yet he STILL neglects his actual teeth.) A chain that would make Flava Flav blush. A full-body tattoo that manages to be simultaneously too pale to make out, and just noticeable enough to make him look unwashed. A criminal record, because all rappers need one, right? I don't even like his hair. Ugh! :smallyuk:

[FlashRah]

Because starting half of your songs off with the disclaimer "no homo" makes you a paragon of artistic maturity. :smallannoyed:

And his image... my god his image. He has managed to combine every visual cue that currently gives rappers a bad name. A grill that would have every Minecrafter reaching for a pickaxe (and yet he STILL neglects his actual teeth.) A chain that would make Flava Flav blush. A full-body tattoo that manages to be simultaneously too pale to make out, and just noticeable enough to make him look unwashed. A criminal record, because all rappers need one, right? I don't even like his hair. Ugh! :smallyuk:

Alright. You don't have to like him. I like two of his albums. I'm not ashamed to admit. (yeah I am a little ashamed actually)

[Thrawn183]

Ever wanted to solve a Rubik's Cube? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYv_oB_PXSg)

[Thorcrest]

I dislike Rap as a genre because I have yet to find a single song I like, and find the style entirely unappealing. It also increases the intensity of my ever present headache and grates on the ears... it's still not as bad as Mainstream Pop or Country... My feelings for any of these genres are just too spiteful to put into words, so I will let this smiley speak for me: :smallfurious:

[Kuma Da]

Thrawn, epic. I find myself constantly impressed by the ingenuity of some of the underground. Of course, this doesn't stop DeStorm from sounding slightly annoying when he isn't rapping, but w/e. Still great talent.

Thorcrest, I don't suppose you're interested in changing your opinion, but here's the song that got me to admit that rap might be music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7yCE4GV9i0

Oh, it's also got text by the artist analyzing his own stuff, which is a hell of read in its own right.

[Gaelbert]

I grew up in the birthplace of hyphy, right around the same time. Not one of my proudest distinctions, but certainly made life interesting.

I like rap well enough, though usually I don't like what I hear on the radio. I do enjoy Eminem at times, as well as Jay Z and maybe a few other mainstream people. I normally listen to a lot of Middle Eastern rappers, specifically Palestinian, Lebanese, or Iranian. I'm also a big fan of people like Lowkey or 3/5 Human. And nothing makes me feel better than listening to Sunshine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvY38j7JdCk) by Atmosphere. If you get past the first few lines anyways.

[Thorcrest]

Thorcrest, I don't suppose you're interested in changing your opinion, but here's the song that got me to admit that rap might be music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7yCE4GV9i0

Oh, it's also got text by the artist analyzing his own stuff, which is a hell of read in its own right.

Sorry, listened to it and I just don't find it good... Rap is just not something I want to listen to; rap and I just don't agree musically.

[Kuma Da]

Holy crap, Gaelbert. I'd never heard either of those before. Can't say I'm as big a fan of Atmosphere, but those other two are strong stuff.

...although they're also prime candidates for a flaming thread derail. Oh, well.

I'm reminded a little of Riz MC, even if "Post 9/11 Blues" has a much more upbeat sound to it.

edit: np, thorcrest. I have trouble getting into classical and jazz, so to each their own.

[Thorcrest]

np, thorcrest. I have trouble getting into classical and jazz, so to each their own.

See, I love classical and have no problem with Jazz... to each their own indeed!

[Shadow of the Sun]

I mentioned some rappers earlier that I listen too who are Australian; I'll provide some examples.

Drapht - Rapunzel. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DJnvFBZ7pc&NR=1&feature=fvwp) This is a really cool song about a relationship that just didn't work out. Very worth listening too, lyrically cool, and the music is really good, not just synth with a beat.

Drapht - Jimmy Recard. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki6YTXyITaQ&feature=related) This song is just fun about a fictional guy whose a born winner by the virtue of having an awesome name. The music is, again, very good. Lots of Australian only references, though.

Hilltop Hoods - The Nosebleed Section. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqCyTM1bF6Q&feature=related) A song built around a tastefully used sample, this was REALLY big here in Australia a couple of years back; you can see why.

Hilltop Hoods - Chase That Feeling. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq8PyyMbrYQ&feature=related) A cool hip hop song built around a somewhat jazzy piano riff with fun lyrics. Very good.

Illy (feat. Wren) - Diamonds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35QCMov4sEc&feature=related) This is absolutely beautiful. The lyrics really hit deep for me, and Illy's rapping contrasts really well with Wren's singing.

Illy - Cigarettes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhQPW3ehFSY&feature=related) This is the song that my current sig is quoting; the beat is BRILLIANT and the lyrics are AMAZING. This is one of my favourite songs ever. I love it.

[Gaelbert]

Holy crap, Gaelbert. I'd never heard either of those before. Can't say I'm as big a fan of Atmosphere, but those other two are strong stuff.

...although they're also prime candidates for a flaming thread derail. Oh, well.

I'm reminded a little of Riz MC, even if "Post 9/11 Blues" has a much more upbeat sound to it.

For the most part, I listen to rap for its intensity. There's a level of energy, even power, that can be transmitted through rap in a way it can't with other genres. I think that's why certain... messages can be made so much more gripping when rapped. I also listen to folk music with similar lyrics and, while folk is beautiful and definitely has its uses, the rap has a sort of primal brutality that is hard to avoid.

Something like Dance with the Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTy5gIm7J6c&feature=fvst) by Immortal Technique? Dangerously emotional. I don't even know the right words to describe it, but I know if similar lyrics were put in a different genre, the effect would be completely different and far less powerful. I cry every time I listen to it.

I'd be less ambiguous, but I'm flirting around board rules already and I don't want to cross the line.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Damn it, Illy just blows my mind every time I listen.

[Shadow of the Sun]

*high fives VeisuItaTyhjyys*

Hells yeah.

[Asthix]

Gotta spread the love with undisputable proof that rap is musical! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ey8r-nR6k)

[Shadow of the Sun]

Asthix: sorry, that's not rap. That's R&B. There's a difference.

[An Enemy Spy]

I like music.

I do. What did the subtle avatar of a idealised version of myself holding a frickin' Bob Dylan record confuse you? Good. And as a liker of music I like to think my tastes are pretty diverse. I love rock, folk, metal, jazz, soul, punk whatever whatever. But one genre I adore is rap and that's where this tale kinda twists.

It is my observation that the general concensus on the internet is that rap is the single most vile, unlistenable dreck that has ever been produced. Now I can understand a few people saying this, no genre has the entire world as its fanbase, but the sheer volume is what struck me. Entire threads mercilessly devoted to ripping it a new one, hate art abounds, blog post after blog post spewing hate like none has seen.

My biggest question is why? Rap isn't perfect for sure. No genre is. Is there something I'm missing? A few of my friends claim that radio rap might be causing this but I don't know because I don't listen to the radio. Is there anyone else out there who appreciates this genre as much (or perhaps more) than I?

Oh and before I forget. I'm not referring to any instances on GITP. In fact that's why I'm posting this here. You guys seem to be the most unbiased forum to bring this to.

I can see where you are coming from. Frankly, the only reason that I personally don't like rap is that I find it to be the most offending, unlistenable ear sodomy ever coughed up from the blackest pits of the underworld. I would come up with a few redeeming qualities for it, but then I would be lying.
Not that I judge you for liking it or anything. It's all a matter of taste.

[Psyren]

I can see where you are coming from. Frankly, the only reason that I personally don't like rap is that I find it to be the most offending, unlistenable ear sodomy ever coughed up from the blackest pits of the underworld. I would come up with a few redeeming qualities for it, but then I would be lying.

You know, if I didn't know any better, I'd say rap isn't entirely your cup of tea. Call it a hunch.

[VanBuren]

I think the only rap I listen to is Kanye, Gorillaz (which, the songs I have, is Del, Mos Def, and De La Soul), and a bit of Movits! In general, I dislike the sound, because I don't think the voice is a good rythym instrument and works far better as a melodic one, and that generally the music of rap is either a simple drum beat with a bassline or a far too lush keyboard/synth backing that sounds awful in my opinion.

I cannot stand Eminem either, and while he's a decent lyricist, I don't think he's anywhere as good as people say. His rhymes are clever, but being able to rhyme doesn't make you a lyrical genius.

It's not just the way he writes it. It's also the way he delivers it. He can make it flow like none other. It's not his best song, but "No Love" really does a good job of showing just how he can build that energy without seeming to stop even once.

Of course it's got that other guy, so skip the first half of the song.

[skywalker]

Really, at the end of the day, socio-economic conditions create the behaviors, while that style of rap is a (semi-apologist) attitude to addressing an already perceived necessity which, when its audience expanded beyond its original realm, removes the necessity and creates a cultural ideology of misunderstood and misrepresented stereotypes which, through the aformentioned programers and labels, is emphasized in an attempt to increasingly seize that wealthier market. Hence the change from instrospective, if nihilistic, lyrics to the more celebratory fawnings and posturing of more recent so-called gangsta successes.

I don't think you give the originals enough credit. BIG was very complex, but he certainly celebrated his "gangsta" lifestyle at times. I would argue that Pac, while talented, was always trying to shove himself into that culture, he was one of these "poseurs" you're talking about to start with.


Then you have Taio Cruz and Soulja Boy and Akon and their ilk, who I honestly can't stand unless I'm drunk at a party or something.

The difference here is that Taio Cruz crafts listenable, catchy pop songs. Soulja Boy gets paid to jump around and yell like an idiot on tape for 3 minutes at a time.


Oh, I like the Taio Cruz songs a lot more than I like Soulja Boy, no lie, no competition. But compared to 50 Cent, Dr Dre, Eminem, that crowd, he doesn't hold up.

Bone to pick about 50: He isn't really trying. Since (and partially including) Massacre, he's been a total disappointment. Oh, on top of that, he only ever raps for the ladies. He's never had a single get radio airplay that wasn't a come-on. One-trick pony, I feel. I'm a fairly big Em fan so I have some of the less mainstream stuff and when he starts rapping about "harder" subjects it comes off as half-assed, mailed in, and uninspired.


And no, I don't want to go through a dozen pages of 'But this is different than the mainstream garbage, maybe you'll like it'. I could spend the rest of my life going through links to music types that I know I like, thanks.

Yo, VT, I have this track you simply have to hear... It will change your mind about a genre for sure. :smallwink:


Because starting half of your songs off with the disclaimer "no homo" makes you a paragon of artistic maturity. :smallannoyed:

And his image... my god his image. He has managed to combine every visual cue that currently gives rappers a bad name. A grill that would have every Minecrafter reaching for a pickaxe (and yet he STILL neglects his actual teeth.) A chain that would make Flava Flav blush. A full-body tattoo that manages to be simultaneously too pale to make out, and just noticeable enough to make him look unwashed. A criminal record, because all rappers need one, right? I don't even like his hair. Ugh! :smallyuk:

You have to understand, he's not a human being. He's a martian. Or... a goblin... I can't really remember which right now, sorry.

Oh, and here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLUX0y4EptA) a good track from a band mentioned earlier.

[Mando Knight]

I would come up with a few redeeming qualities for it, but then I would be lying.

One redeeming quality: It's a man's soul! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJEtRtlmidk) Or at least that one is.

[Analytica]

I didn't think I liked it, then I discovered stuff like this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXd2TU1BoyU

[dehro]

Gotta spread the love with undisputable proof that rap is musical! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ey8r-nR6k)

the outrageous accessories could have fooled me..but that's not rap by any means

[An Enemy Spy]

You know, if I didn't know any better, I'd say rap isn't entirely your cup of tea. Call it a hunch.

How did you know? I mean that's just scary.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I don't think you give the originals enough credit. BIG was very complex, but he certainly celebrated his "gangsta" lifestyle at times. I would argue that Pac, while talented, was always trying to shove himself into that culture, he was one of these "poseurs" you're talking about to start with.

Hey, now, I said "semi-apologist." :smalltongue: Yeah, there's definitely an amount of celebration, but it's definitely met with a lot of thoughtfulness; this is what got me out of a terrible situation, and into a life of wealth, but there are times it must be questioned whether or not that was worth it.

I'm not too sure about Pac's life story, honestly, other than his family's prominent membership in the Black Panther Party.

[Asthix]

the outrageous accessories could have fooled me..but that's not rap by any means

Alright, alright. I'll just throw out some more meaningless discordant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyw_IdBlbKs).pseudo music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft80up2AbK4). :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

Drapht - Jimmy Recard. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki6YTXyITaQ&feature=related) This song is just fun about a fictional guy whose a born winner by the virtue of having an awesome name. The music is, again, very good. Lots of Australian only references, though.JAY! ARR! JIMMY RECARD!

Yeah, I do quite like that one...

[Shadow of the Sun]

Serp: yeah, it is a damn awesome song. I love Australian hip-hop a lot. A lot more musical than mainstream American rap, if folks'll excuse me for saying so.

[Kuma Da]

Totally excused, Shadow. Mainstream american rap is pretty much radio-herpes that we keep trying to share with the world.

I will admit, I do like Em, Rhianna, and Nikki. I can stand Weezy in moderation. I think Lil' John is hilarious, and that's sorta like actually enjoying his music.

However, I think most of the good stuff is either underground or from overseas. This thread is pleasantly surprising me with how much good Aussie hip-hop is out there.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Li'l John has that rare gift of being born as self-parody.

[Moff Chumley]

I mentioned some rappers earlier that I listen too who are Australian; I'll provide some examples.

Drapht - Rapunzel. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DJnvFBZ7pc&NR=1&feature=fvwp) This is a really cool song about a relationship that just didn't work out. Very worth listening too, lyrically cool, and the music is really good, not just synth with a beat.

Drapht - Jimmy Recard. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki6YTXyITaQ&feature=related) This song is just fun about a fictional guy whose a born winner by the virtue of having an awesome name. The music is, again, very good. Lots of Australian only references, though.

Hilltop Hoods - The Nosebleed Section. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqCyTM1bF6Q&feature=related) A song built around a tastefully used sample, this was REALLY big here in Australia a couple of years back; you can see why.

Hilltop Hoods - Chase That Feeling. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq8PyyMbrYQ&feature=related) A cool hip hop song built around a somewhat jazzy piano riff with fun lyrics. Very good.

Illy (feat. Wren) - Diamonds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35QCMov4sEc&feature=related) This is absolutely beautiful. The lyrics really hit deep for me, and Illy's rapping contrasts really well with Wren's singing.

Illy - Cigarettes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhQPW3ehFSY&feature=related) This is the song that my current sig is quoting; the beat is BRILLIANT and the lyrics are AMAZING. This is one of my favourite songs ever. I love it.

Can I just take this opportunity to say: you have excellent taste, sir. :smallbiggrin:


Here's a hint - if you can dance to it, it's musical. Lots of music isn't for dancing of course, but if you can, it is.

...wat? I'm sorry, I don't really agree with that definition at all... there's plenty of music from plenty of cultures that is either difficult or impossible to dance to that's still very much music.


"Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live." - KRS-one

Rapping is what an Emcee does, Hip-hop is is a form of musical expression and artistic culture that includes DJing, MCing, Graffiti, Break dancing and beatboxing.

This is technically correct, yeah. As someone's mentioned, I tend to associate "hip hop" with music that involves an MC and DJ. Like Del Tha Funkee Homosapien versus Deltron 3030. But there's plenty of exceptions.


Bookmarking this thread, because the links look excellent.

I've only barely skimmed, and will be properly reading later, but it looks like nobody's brought up Aesop Rock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBGCOCxLgA) or Lupe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GQjYPWDcmg) yet. This must be corrected.

Beat you to it, back on page 1. :smallcool:

[Serpentine]

I like 1200 Techniques, too. Or, at least, that one song, Karma... (and its ossum video)

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think the definition was inclusive, not exclusive, Moff; if you can dance to it, it's necessarily music, but music isn't necessarily danceable.

[Serpentine]

Annnd now I'm listening to Karma. Good one, guys :smallannoyed:

...is Butterfingers rap/hip-hop?

edit: Apparently they are. So, in that case, I have a favourite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYf2Dh71RgY&feature=related) hip-hop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PfVfYppfdU&feature=related) group (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIi0SJ_K0_I&feature=related) - the true epitome of the Australian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCXbCyBZMLc&NR=1) Way of Life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH4Se7nyl2s&feature=related).

[Knaight]

This thread needs more Flobots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvVO6Y-3CM8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsgbb23z27w

The second song is much better.

[Gaelbert]

This thread needs more Flobots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvVO6Y-3CM8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsgbb23z27w

The second song is much better.

Whip$ and Chain$ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zk-7hK5uIU)
Defend Atlantis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiERlFPk8oI&feature=related)
Stand Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8xTOadn1n0&feature=related)
Same Thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS0R9rDTSHo)

All are very good Flobots songs as well.

None Shall Pass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBGCOCxLgA) by Aesop Rock
Storm of Swords (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6XmLcdEZmw&feature=fvst) by Jedi Mind Trick
Hip Hop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jNyr6BJZuI&feature=bf_next&list=MLGxdCwVVULXeRZ2ho5cxSUr-9G_30NW21&index=2) by Dead Prez
You Never Know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pqiqrnZE44) by Immortal Technique
The last one is much different than the first few. All of them, however, are definite NSFW.

[loopy]

Just out of curiosity, did anyone actually check out the links I listed back on page 1? I'd quite like to know if the songs were to anyone elses taste. :smallsmile:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Ugh, can't stand the Flobots.

Word to Dead Prez, though.

[Gaelbert]

Just out of curiosity, did anyone actually check out the links I listed back on page 1? I'd quite like to know if the songs were to anyone elses taste. :smallsmile:

I really liked Seth Sentry's style. That's not the sort of thing I'm used to hearing in my rap, it reminded me more of all my indie music.

Bliss N Eso was a little more like what I'm used to and I enjoyed it as well. I may end up downloading some of that stuff.

Clockwork... was unnerving.

[FlashRah]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Public Enemy or Wu-Tang Clan. In fact my two favourite rap albums are from Public Enemy and GZA/Genius (who was a member of Wu-Tang Clan).

[skywalker]

Hey, now, I said "semi-apologist." :smalltongue: Yeah, there's definitely an amount of celebration, but it's definitely met with a lot of thoughtfulness; this is what got me out of a terrible situation, and into a life of wealth, but there are times it must be questioned whether or not that was worth it.

I'm not too sure about Pac's life story, honestly, other than his family's prominent membership in the Black Panther Party.

Hmmm. I point to Biggie's "party and bullsh!t" that totally perverted what The Last Poets were trying to say with the original.

Tupac... He went to art school. He was a back-up dancer for Digital Underground. I won't say his life wasn't hard, but I kinda doubt he was hustling the same way Biggie was, hell, even the same way Jay-Z was at times in his life. Yeah his parents were BPP but that in some ways made him ghetto royalty... In ways that Big and the others never dreamed of.


Totally excused, Shadow. Mainstream american rap is pretty much radio-herpes that we keep trying to share with the world.

I will admit, I do like Em, Rhianna, and Nikki. I can stand Weezy in moderation. I think Lil' John is hilarious, and that's sorta like actually enjoying his music.

Like... Nicki Minaj?


Ugh, can't stand the Flobots.

Word to Dead Prez, though.

Alright friend, what have you got against Flobots?

Oh, I have to say that I see a serious decline from Fight With Tools to Survival Story... But I thought FWT was one of the better albums I'd ever heard, so... *shrug* "Whips" and "Atlantis" just don't have the spark that "Stand Up" and "Same Thing" have, to keep the discussion within links that have already been posted.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Hmmm. I point to Biggie's "party and bullsh!t" that totally perverted what The Last Poets were trying to say with the original.
Yeah, totally, but there's only so much you can judge from one song, especially when it's the first single and the guy's selling drugs to support his kid. Honestly, before he actually blew up, most of Biggie's songs just seem like another way to hustle, to me. In general, the singles are the more positive songs, since that's what people like to buy and what keeps them consuming. The recording industry sucks, is my point.
Not that I'm saying he was a saint/"socially responsible" or whatever, just that it's not fair to judge him from the singles that got released.


Tupac... He went to art school. He was a back-up dancer for Digital Underground. I won't say his life wasn't hard, but I kinda doubt he was hustling the same way Biggie was, hell, even the same way Jay-Z was at times in his life. Yeah his parents were BPP but that in some ways made him ghetto royalty... In ways that Big and the others never dreamed of.
Fair enough. I was never too into the Tupac mythos or life story. He's a good MC, but I got into him way later, since I grew up on East Coast hip-hop.


Alright friend, what have you got against Flobots?
Their flow seems awkward, and rhymes about political messages that were trite when pop-punk beat their psuedo-revolutionary rhetoric into the ground half-a-decade earlier just isn't my idea of what hip-hop should be. It just seems (and, when I lived in Denver, seemed even more) that the Flobots know of hardship through teevee screens and it shows. There isn't any grime, or pain, it's all kinda hipstery kids talking about slightly-left-of-centre politics like they're revolutionary.
I wasn't too into them before I would run into them occasionally in Denver, and then it just spiralled downhill as they kinda reinforced how I felt from listening to the album. Maybe their stuff from before Flight with Tools is cool, I haven't given it a shot.

[chiasaur11]

It's hard to break it to you, but yes.

You are.

I know, you've labored for years under the illusion that other people liked it, they've even said they have.

There have been a number of artists producing it, which would make it safe to assume they like it.

But they do not. This whole industry? It's exclusively for your benefit.

I know for a fact that Donald Glover, when releasing a new Childish Gambino track, weeps into his hands with displeasure over his work.

But then, he sighs, looks up, and says "If FlashRah gets a second of enjoyment from this musical oddity, then it was all worth it."

I hope this revelation hasn't soured you on Rap. We've all kind of assumed you were getting something from the music we weren't.

[FlashRah]

Oh you're funny.

[Gaelbert]

Their flow seems awkward, and rhymes about political messages that were trite when pop-punk beat their psuedo-revolutionary rhetoric into the ground half-a-decade earlier just isn't my idea of what hip-hop should be. It just seems (and, when I lived in Denver, seemed even more) that the Flobots know of hardship through teevee screens and it shows. There isn't any grime, or pain, it's all kinda hipstery kids talking about slightly-left-of-centre politics like they're revolutionary.
I wasn't too into them before I would run into them occasionally in Denver, and then it just spiralled downhill as they kinda reinforced how I felt from listening to the album. Maybe their stuff from before Flight with Tools is cool, I haven't given it a shot.

I can definitely understand that. I used to like them a lot, but as I listened to more and more rap, they just felt... awkward. I don't listen to them a whole lot anymore, but it can be a good intro to that sort of music. Especially for people coming from a rock background.

Just found out Atmosphere is coming to my town. To the open air theatre. That's 20 yards away from my apartment. I can hear the music perfectly from inside my own apartment, and there's a parking lot over the theatre that you can see the entire stage from. Awesome.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Oh, wow, dude. You just won forever.

[Fri]

It's hard to break it to you, but yes.

You are.

I know, you've labored for years under the illusion that other people liked it, they've even said they have.

There have been a number of artists producing it, which would make it safe to assume they like it.

But they do not. This whole industry? It's exclusively for your benefit.

I know for a fact that Donald Glover, when releasing a new Childish Gambino track, weeps into his hands with displeasure over his work.

But then, he sighs, looks up, and says "If FlashRah gets a second of enjoyment from this musical oddity, then it was all worth it."

I hope this revelation hasn't soured you on Rap. We've all kind of assumed you were getting something from the music we weren't.

You're not supposed to break it, Chia. Really, I thought I know you better than this. And if only I could favourite a post

[RedDeerJebediah]

I'm quite fond of the Roots, Beastie Boys, Aesop Rock and Saul Williams. Mainstream rap scared me away from even attempting to get into hip-hop music, so I still have quite a lot of great artists to discover. I'll start with the ones mentioned in this thread, I guess :smalltongue:

As a side note, although it's really more drum'n'bass than hip-hop, I'd like to hear the Playground's opinion on this: Coded Language by DJ Krust and Saul Williams (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HerpGwbLSM8).

[Asthix]

Just found out Atmosphere is coming to my town. To the open air theatre. That's 20 yards away from my apartment. I can hear the music perfectly from inside my own apartment, and there's a parking lot over the theatre that you can see the entire stage from. Awesome.

Bleaugh, Atmosphere. I went to High School with Slug, and he was already perfectly jaded for Hollywood stardom by the time he was a sophomore. And he doesn't tip.

EDIT: RedDeerJebediah: I like how the breaks compliment the flow of the lyrics. It doesn't really get in your face with the DB until the later part of the track. Content is nice too. Very Last Poets.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

In Atmosphere's defense, it's not like his lyrical portrayal of himself doesn't give that same image.

Similar to how Saul Williams was a really nice guy, but kinda preachy, when I met him at a poetry slam. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

Their flow seems awkward, and rhymes about political messages that were trite when pop-punk beat their psuedo-revolutionary rhetoric into the ground half-a-decade earlier just isn't my idea of what hip-hop should be. It just seems (and, when I lived in Denver, seemed even more) that the Flobots know of hardship through teevee screens and it shows. There isn't any grime, or pain, it's all kinda hipstery kids talking about slightly-left-of-centre politics like they're revolutionary.
I wasn't too into them before I would run into them occasionally in Denver, and then it just spiralled downhill as they kinda reinforced how I felt from listening to the album. Maybe their stuff from before Flight with Tools is cool, I haven't given it a shot.

I would agree that their messages tend to underdeveloped and trite, but the structure of the music is very good. Furthermore they are actually good live, with real stage presence, which is more than most artists in the industry can say.

[Fjolnir]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Public Enemy or Wu-Tang Clan. In fact my two favourite rap albums are from Public Enemy and GZA/Genius (who was a member of Wu-Tang Clan).

I mentioned them tangentially about how old rap tries to describe a setting and elicit the public outrage about being black in an underprivileged area and the hustle of surviving/thriving in such an environment while new rap seems to be about glorifying the hustle and ignoring the environment. I will in fact be so bold as to claim that rap died with biggie and will continue to die when his contemporaries do.

[Psyren]

I will in fact be so bold as to claim that rap died with biggie and will continue to die when his contemporaries do.

And Nas is chronicling its demise :smallwink:

[Kuma Da]

Like... Nicki Minaj?

Oh, freaking hell. Is that how she spells it? I knew the 'menage' was weird, but I figured her first name was comparatively phonetic. Oh, well.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Serp: that's the first time I've ever heard Butterfingers.

OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH.

This is THE quintessential example of Australianinity in music.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Serp: that's the first time I've ever heard Butterfingers.

OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH.

This is THE quintessential example of Australianinity in music.

I got my friends hooked on FIGJAM. That song is so perfect.

[JabberwockySupafly]

The lack of Haiku D'Etat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I44Zma2rXys) on this page is making me sad.


Other folks who I didn't see any mention of are (some of these are NSFW):


I can't believe no one has mentioned Busdriver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Yn6XEbV7g&feature=related) as of yet. That being said, I may just have missed his name.

Can't talk about Aesop Rock and leave out El-P (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWNA-jJNhos) (yes that is Trent "Nine Inch Nails" Reznor in this track)

I'm pretty sure both Slug (Emcee of Atmosphere) and MURS have been referred to, but no one seems to have mentioned Felt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBICjxyP3E4)

Eyedea & Abilites (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9-eKhCukW8) were fantastic as well (RIP Michael "Eyedea" Larsen)

Cage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJiAPJVCVcs) is brilliant, not only did he rip off Eminem, he did it before Eminem even existed... (yes, this song features not only DJ Shadow, but also Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys. So much awesome).

illogic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICB-TbY96_8)is another one who seems to get overlooked too much.

There's also a distrubing lack of Grayskul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC_orIbjwf8&feature=fvwrel), Hangar 18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTt5RuIW61Y&feature=fvsr), The Mighty Underdogs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimO0YIJ7vQ&feature=fvwrel), Brother Ali (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxUQ07NXB4c&feature=related) and P.O.S (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMqcoyWV2vM&feature=related)



Most of the other stuff I listen to has already been mentioned, so I'm not going to bother posting links to them.


Also, Shadow & loopy, it's good to see people reppin' Aussie hip-hop. Drapht and Bliss N Eso are some serious talent.

There's nothing wrong with hip-hop. People can claim hip-hop isn't music as much as they like. Like saying Pluto isn't a planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG8bD28Ek84), just saying it doesn't make it true.

[Moff Chumley]

Damn, how'd I forget El-P. And Eyedea. Both amazing, although I've always thought El-P's instrumental stuff was terrific.

Speaking of which, instrumental hip hop. Flying Lotus, DJ Shadow, El-P, Madlib, et cetera. That stuff is great. :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

Serp: that's the first time I've ever heard Butterfingers.

OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH.

This is THE quintessential example of Australianinity in music.You hadn't heard of them before? For shame! =O
I think Yo Mama is my favourite, followed by FIGJAM and then I Love Work... Everytime is funny, but pretty gross.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Serp: I HAD heard 'em before, but I didn't know who they were. I'm a big fan of "Piss On Ya".

[Gaelbert]

I can't believe no one has mentioned MC Hammer or Grandmaster Flash yet. Those guys were the greatest. I personally don't listen to a whole lot of Grandmaster Flash, but I still respect him as a founder.

[Incompleat]

I will be honest, usually I rather dislike rap.

But then again, I am not a native English speaker, so I have a bit of trouble with understanding word plays and fast speech in that language - and indeed, I kind of like some of the little "Italian rap" that exists, like for example Jovanotti's Mi fido di te (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6JoVJgMPOU).

Also, Voltaire's Klingon Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjQZXPmilQ) is awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Kuma Da]

Jabberwocky, I think the only artist you linked that I didn't immediately like was Hanger 18.

Eyedea's amazing, and Grayskul's quite catchy. Thanks for the links. :smallsmile:

[Jallorn]

The canon of music has a history of lines so stupid as to ruin all genres forever, if that's all it takes.



I feel like this qualm comes from a narrow understanding of rap or a very, very broad understanding of beat; the objection, typically, is a lack of melody. Plenty of hip-hop songs have melody in addition to a beat. Unless one counts the melody as part of the beat, or just hasn't listened to more than, like, ten hip-hop songs, I really can't see how the "poetry and a beat" idea comes to exist.

Rap and Hip Hop are, to me at least, not the same. Hip Hop I don't generally like, but because most of it is tasteless (usually because it's Pop (which isn't to say there isn't good Pop)), not because I don't like the genre.

While Rap just doesn't do anything for me.

[JabberwockySupafly]

Jabberwocky, I think the only artist you linked that I didn't immediately like was Hanger 18.

Eyedea's amazing, and Grayskul's quite catchy. Thanks for the links. :smallsmile:

Always more than happy to broaden someone's musical horizon, especially in such an oft-times unfairly maligned genre.If you're looking for more music in the same vein, go to the Def Jux (Definitive Juxtaposition) or Rhymesayers Entertainment youtube channels and/or websites and have a look around. They're essentially the two "big shot" labels in underground hip-hop/conscious rap and their acts are generally considered the "best of the best".

[Shadow of the Sun]

Rap and Hip Hop are, to me at least, not the same. Hip Hop I don't generally like, but because most of it is tasteless (usually because it's Pop (which isn't to say there isn't good Pop)), not because I don't like the genre.

While Rap just doesn't do anything for me.

Saying "most" hip-hop is pop and tasteless is rather like saying "most" punk is the emo crap played by Green Day.

Music scenes, as a whole, are like icebergs. 10% is above the surface. To get the other 90%, you need to take the plunge. And the stuff under the water is generally much better.

[Kuma Da]

Huh. Okay. I will give those a listen. Thanks. :smallcool:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Anybody like Dälek? They're really dark, heavy, political stuff, but they're really good. Really intense.
Dälek - Eyes to Form Shadows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTeIq8CCG3s)


Speaking of intense, Keny Arkana has to be one of the only female rappers who can pull... well, anything off! And that she does it in French on top of that makes it even more amazing. She is INTENSE.
Keny Arkana - La mère des enfants perdus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HWLoFNzAcM)

[Asthix]

RIP Mike, Aka Eyedea.

Also found a mashup with one of the forefathers of the flow, Gil Scott Heron.

Elanor Rigby Will Not be Televised (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjrU3xCP3-s)

EDIT: Also, big ups to female (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrdiABTcaI) rappers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDmno18Af0w&feature=related).

[dehro]

Anybody like Dälek?


there can be only one answer to this:

EXTERMINATE!!

Also, Jovanotti??
http://i44.tinypic.com/kapy4w.gif

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Saying "most" hip-hop is pop and tasteless is rather like saying "most" punk is the emo crap played by Green Day.

Music scenes, as a whole, are like icebergs. 10% is above the surface. To get the other 90%, you need to take the plunge. And the stuff under the water is generally much better.

This.

I'm always really impressed by Dälek's beats. Keny Arkana is just great all around.

[Serpentine]

Oo oo! Chap-rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eELH0ivexKA)! :biggrin:

[Moff Chumley]

RIP Mike, Aka Eyedea.

Also found a mashup with one of the forefathers of the flow, Gil Scott Heron.

Elanor Rigby Will Not be Televised (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjrU3xCP3-s)

EDIT: Also, big ups to female (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrdiABTcaI) rappers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDmno18Af0w&feature=related).

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised remains one of the coolest things ever.

Just sayin.

[skywalker]

Yeah, totally, but there's only so much you can judge from one song, especially when it's the first single and the guy's selling drugs to support his kid. Honestly, before he actually blew up, most of Biggie's songs just seem like another way to hustle, to me. In general, the singles are the more positive songs, since that's what people like to buy and what keeps them consuming. The recording industry sucks, is my point.
Not that I'm saying he was a saint/"socially responsible" or whatever, just that it's not fair to judge him from the singles that got released.

I think both of us are just dancing around telling the other not to go too far in what we're saying. I think we mainly agree here.


Their flow seems awkward, and rhymes about political messages that were trite when pop-punk beat their psuedo-revolutionary rhetoric into the ground half-a-decade earlier just isn't my idea of what hip-hop should be. It just seems (and, when I lived in Denver, seemed even more) that the Flobots know of hardship through teevee screens and it shows. There isn't any grime, or pain, it's all kinda hipstery kids talking about slightly-left-of-centre politics like they're revolutionary.
I wasn't too into them before I would run into them occasionally in Denver, and then it just spiralled downhill as they kinda reinforced how I felt from listening to the album. Maybe their stuff from before Flight with Tools is cool, I haven't given it a shot.

You know, you have a more personal experience with the band, which I will bow to. From my perspective I find them more unique in that they put a political message upfront that isn't just "Hey, Politician X sucks!" but has more of a "here's how it can be different" slant that you don't necessarily get from your average pop-punk band (*cough*Green Day*cough*). The more "actually change stuff" message attracts me, I guess.


I mentioned them tangentially about how old rap tries to describe a setting and elicit the public outrage about being black in an underprivileged area and the hustle of surviving/thriving in such an environment while new rap seems to be about glorifying the hustle and ignoring the environment. I will in fact be so bold as to claim that rap died with biggie and will continue to die when his contemporaries do.

I don't think so. Rap is more than painting an evocative picture of life in the ghetto.

If you're going to say that that's what rap is for, I would argue that Lil Wayne paints the same picture, perhaps even more vividly, you just have to see the end result/product instead of the process and intuit from there. No, he's not telling you about how he grew up without a father, his stepfather went away and got killed, how he felt like he should "be the man" in his family from that point forward, how he shot himself in the chest "being the man," how he's been a literal father since he was 15, etc. But you can see all the evidence of being raised in the school of Hard Knocks on him. He's as deeply disturbed a man as Big and it doesn't take more than one listen to figure that out.

Whether it's a deep easy flow about how Big "used to read Word Up magazine" or a frantic "woman of my dreams... I don't sleep so I can't find her..." both men are painting that picture, just in a different way.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think both of us are just dancing around telling the other not to go too far in what we're saying. I think we mainly agree here.
Yeah, definitely.




You know, you have a more personal experience with the band, which I will bow to. From my perspective I find them more unique in that they put a political message upfront that isn't just "Hey, Politician X sucks!" but has more of a "here's how it can be different" slant that you don't necessarily get from your average pop-punk band (*cough*Green Day*cough*). The more "actually change stuff" message attracts me, I guess.
Yeah, I think I've just read enough critical theory and been a punk kid long enough "positive messages" about changing things usually strike me as selling out. =P

[Mauve Shirt]

I saw Flobots live a few years ago. They were pretty cool. I think they have a good sound, even disregarding the political message they send. If watching other people's recordings of live music is your thing, here's one of the videos I took (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LamHnsIKVlw).

[Serpentine]

Oh yeah, Scrubius Pip is pretty great!

Huh. Guess I like a fair bit of rap and hip-hop, as it turns out...

[Shadow of the Sun]

Serp: that's because rap and hip-hop are AWESOME.

...provided the people doing it actually have skill at putting their stuff together. Nothing pisses me off more than rappers using a "loop it and leave it" method so they've got something to rap over. The example that annoys me most is certainly "Touch The Sky" by Kanye West. He took a song I absolutely love (Move On Up by Curtis Mayfield) and sampled it to rap over- and here's the bit that annoys me the most- HE DIDN'T TAKE THE VOCALS FROM CURTIS OUT OF THE SAMPLE. Basically the entire thing is me basically saying "Why the hell is this idiot rapping over one of my favourite songs ever?"

My advice to Kanye: when listening to your songs, I SHOULD NOT be reminded of a far more talented musician. It just makes you look bad.

[Moff Chumley]

Gave a listen to Drapht. Jimmy Recard is possibly one of the greatest things I've ever heard.:smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

JAY. AR. JIMMY RECARD.

:biggrin:

[Moff Chumley]

This thread needs more Casual. I have never met another person in my life who's heard of this guy; I haven't a clue why. He's awesome.

[grimbold]

basically, rap on its own is fine with most people
however rap was one of the big creators of hip hop and hip hop is detested by large portions of the internet mainly because it is completely overplayed

[Trog]

I enjoy a Beastie Boys tune now and again and I have a bunch of their stuff. And a smattering of others. Some Eminem, some old Public Enemy and such. Mostly old school stuff I suppose.

[Moff Chumley]

basically, rap on its own is fine with most people
however rap was one of the big creators of hip hop and hip hop is detested by large portions of the internet mainly because it is completely overplayed

Uh, I'm pretty sure you're getting your terminology mixed up.

For example, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAsrDu3pL2g) is technically hip hop. So is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ytxZdmSqr0). Neither involve rap, but are both just as "hip hop" as any Biggie track you care to mention. Rap is a specific vocal style that makes up a portion of hip hop culture along with, as has been mentioned, turntablism, sampling, certain types of dance, and graffiti.

tl;dr: Rap is a component of some hip hop. There is no rap that is not hip hop.

Except for some 80s Jamaican Dancehall. But I don't think anyone was talking about that. >.>

[Shadow of the Sun]

The best example of what Moff is talking about is DJ Shadow. His first album, Endtroducing..... is entirely instrumental hip-hop built from nothing but samples.

And it is brilliant.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Word to Moff for mentioning the four pillars. Even if we can't agree on Lady Gaga's artistic merits, we at least see eye-to-eye when it comes to hip hop.

DJ Shadow is a beast, bee-arr-bee. Also, Hey-Ya is a really pretty song no-matter how it's played; try playing it acoustic (which is harder than it seems, since it's written in 13/4) and see.

[Moff Chumley]

Hey Ya has 22 beats before repeating; I'm pretty sure you count it 4/4/4/4/2/4. What a song, though. :smallbiggrin:

[skywalker]

Except for some 80s Jamaican Dancehall. But I don't think anyone was talking about that. >.>

Love me some 80s Dancehall.


DJ Shadow is a beast, bee-arr-bee. Also, Hey-Ya is a really pretty song no-matter how it's played; try playing it acoustic (which is harder than it seems, since it's written in 13/4) and see.

"Hey Ya?" What song are we talking about here?

[Moff Chumley]

Shake it like a Polaroid pict-chah? Ringing any bells?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

11/4, typo; it goes 12/4 then 10/4 in a six-measure phrase, but it emulates 11/4.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Anyone here listen to RJD2? He's another of the instrumental hip hop/trip hop guys.

I'm really on a kick of people who use samples exclusively or near exclusively for their music. That just really synchs up with my believes about creativity for some reason.

And the music tends to be really damn awesome, too.

[Sneak]

Yes. This song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVqAdIMQZlk) is just fantastic.

I'm been getting into some French trip-hoppy stuff recently as well. (Guts, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w8exgOC6tU) Wax Tailor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEi9ZQrEjr8))

Good stuff.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Ironically, the genre in general gets a bad rap, (DON'T HIT ME PLEASE) but I've always been a big fan. I listen to mainly Aussie Rap/Hip-Hop, since it's a lot easier for me to find the moderately less well-known (And so free of a lot of the masturbatory culture that a lot of modern hip-hop/rap has, mostly.) artists in my mother country.

I can listen to TZU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP48CW1OU5c) when I want something a little light-hearted and fun, or honest and down-to-earth.

The Herd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n65x_cSHSHE) have a strong political message, (more their later stuff than earlier, though their song about their local fish and chip joint (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXk-bmVxAA) is one of my favourites.) and have a great group make-up.

Bliss and Eso (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFwKgZ23gc0) are kids from the suburbs that show us you can have fun with all that gangster'y stuff and still be cool as.

And, well, the Hilltop Hoods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqCyTM1bF6Q) might just be the best Aussie-Hip-hop act around, and 5.2 million views on this track alone shows us it's likely to stay that way. Stopping All Stations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVXUtu4a1hE) actually makes me tear up.

[warty goblin]

The Herd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n65x_cSHSHE) have a strong political message, (more their later stuff than earlier, though their song about their local fish and chip joint (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXk-bmVxAA) is one of my favourites.) and have a great group make-up.
All I really know about the Herd is that their version of I was Only 19 is vastly worse than the original.

[Rettu Skcollob]

All I really know about the Herd is that their version of I was Only 19 is vastly worse than the original.

Cool opinion bro.

[Falgorn]

Thanks for this thread, FlashRah. I like rap. I like the mainstream stuff, too. I listen to Drake two hours a day, listen to Eminem when I work out, and look for all the newest stuf to come out. So, yeah, I'm one of those guys.

[Kuma Da]

Cool opinion bro.

I am stealing that line, and I'm going to use it to handle all similar circumstances. Well played, sir. :smallamused:

[VanBuren]

I am stealing that line, and I'm going to use it to handle all similar circumstances. Well played, sir. :smallamused:

I tend to prefer:

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." -- The Dude.

[Aspie]

I love rap. I also love Metal. Those are about the only genres I listen to voluntarily. Norwegian rap is very divided in terms of quality. We got great bands/artists like Gatas Parlament (Parliament of the Street) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3tNX5jWhCg), Apollo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61S74Up-bCo) and Klovner I Kamp (Clowns in Battle) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0neJ7a_3Lo).
Then we got utter **** like Erik & Kriss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nLrWMOxtUA) AKA Upper-Class Teenager rappers. They rap about how terrible it is to be wealthy in the "socialist" Norway, how they get girls easily and such. Disgusting.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Ironically, the genre in general gets a bad rap, (DON'T HIT ME PLEASE) but I've always been a big fan. I listen to mainly Aussie Rap/Hip-Hop, since it's a lot easier for me to find the moderately less well-known (And so free of a lot of the masturbatory culture that a lot of modern hip-hop/rap has, mostly.) artists in my mother country.

I can listen to TZU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP48CW1OU5c) when I want something a little light-hearted and fun, or honest and down-to-earth.

The Herd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n65x_cSHSHE) have a strong political message, (more their later stuff than earlier, though their song about their local fish and chip joint (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXk-bmVxAA) is one of my favourites.) and have a great group make-up.

Bliss and Eso (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFwKgZ23gc0) are kids from the suburbs that show us you can have fun with all that gangster'y stuff and still be cool as.

And, well, the Hilltop Hoods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqCyTM1bF6Q) might just be the best Aussie-Hip-hop act around, and 5.2 million views on this track alone shows us it's likely to stay that way. Stopping All Stations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVXUtu4a1hE) actually makes me tear up.

I'm not sure how I wrote all that without recommending the Butterfingers too. Their stuff has a bit of mature language in it, if you care about that, but other than that they're fun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PfVfYppfdU&NR=1), real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bawRSHjYrR0&feature=related) and hilarious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYf2Dh71RgY&feature=related).

[Dvandemon]

No, you're not the only one that's into rap. I like love music as well, and believe there is a massive boost in Haterade sales

[Vaynor]

I've been really liking Sage Francis lately, specifically this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA8hzUDXvtk). I like some rap, but detest gangster rap. What I like is probably better classified as spoken word.

[Gaelbert]

Following some advice from this thread, I picked up Enemy of the State by Lupe Fiasco. I was not disappointed.
I've also been listening to Nas, A Tribe Called Quest, and the Wu-Tang Clan. Not terribly impressed with the Wu-Tang Clan, but some people like them I guess.
Also, I can't believe no one has mentioned Libera Me From Hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY06IgyN_RM). Maybe it's my current obsession with Gurren Lagann, but I can't think of anything that can top it right now. It's beautiful.

[Mina Kobold]

No, FlashRah, you're not.

As this thread clearly shows a lot of people like it, and they're probably happier for it.

As for me? Can't stand Rap (Or Death Metal for that matter) due to the vocals and beat just giving me a migraine and generally hurting my ears.

I do not argue that it is not music, however, just that I can't take that kind of singing no matter the lyrics. :smallsmile:

Though, I wouldn't listen to Gangsta Rap even if I could stand the vocals, the attitude just makes me want to DESTROY THE WORLD!

Or listen to Beethoven, same thing really. :smalltongue: