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Rasman
2011-02-13, 05:41 PM
If you were to craft a Ring of Divine Power, thus giving you Divine Power as a continuous effect, would it affect your BAB in regards to feat selection?

For example, a Wizard normally has a BAB of +5 at level 10, with a Ring of Divine Power, his BAB is treated at a +10. Would he be able to take combat feats that required a BAB of +10 or would he still be limited by his natural BAB?

My reasoning behind asking this is that the spells states


Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level.

It doesn't say it's an enhancement bonus, it just BECOMES it. Thoughts?

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 05:42 PM
RAW I'm pretty sure he could take ones that require BAB +10... but a DM might hit you.

Reynard
2011-02-13, 05:44 PM
Out of interest, what would the cost of such a ring be?

Rasman
2011-02-13, 05:45 PM
RAW I'm pretty sure he could take ones that require BAB +10... but a DM might hit you.

That's ok, I have DR15/Dungeon Master's Guide and Bludgeoning.


Out of interest, what would the cost of such a ring be?

Ring of Divine Power (continuous effect, persistent spell, CL 21, 1/day)

With those stats, I BELIEVE 42,000gp.

unosarta
2011-02-13, 05:52 PM
According to my calculations, it would cost 56000 gp.

4 (spell level) * 7 (caster level) * 2000 (continuous effect price)= 56000.

You could reduce the price by making it Command word, allowing you to gain the effect for 7 rounds by spending a standard action, making it:

4 (spell level) * 7 (caster level) * 1800 (command word price)= 50400.

[Edit]: With your calculations, you are persisting it, correct? If so, then unless you are using DMM, it should be increasing the spell slot by 6 levels. If you yourself are making it, this becomes easy if you have DMM. If you are hiring a cleric to make it, then you had better make sure that they have DMM, or you will be spending quite a bit of money.

Alternatively, you appear to be buying it from an epic caster. If this is for an actual game, where would you find one? They usually hang out on their own personal demi-plane... :smallsigh:

T.G. Oskar
2011-02-13, 05:53 PM
Out of interest, what would the cost of such a ring be?

At 72,000 gp? Pretty much a steal, because the idea is to truly replicate the effect of Divine Power continuously. A 19th level item (as per Magic Item Compendium), but effectively makes you a better Fighter than the actual Fighter, completely eclipses the poor Paladin, and just about bashes every other martial character out of the water.

Of course, you have to deal with the temporary hit point trouble, which means you have to pretty much customize it to grant permanent Hit Points.

unosarta
2011-02-13, 06:01 PM
Ring of Divine Power (continuous effect, persistent spell, CL 21, 1/day)

With those stats, I BELIEVE 42,000gp.

Yeah, no, your math is still wrong. I just checked. Also, you could be save quite a bit of money by just using Command word activation, since you will be activating in the very beginning of the day anyway, and there is really no way that an action cost that minor is worth the extra price. Anyway;

10 * 21 * 1800 = 378000.

378000/5= 75600. So, at minimum, if you persist it, you actually spend more money than if you just use continuous. :smallconfused:

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 06:03 PM
The presented one would use Epic Rules for pricing (even if you use DMM it doesn't get around it for the effective spell level for magic items) and I'm not familiar with those. At 1/day, 210 x 1800 (as it would need to be command-word and not use activated in this case), that would be 42 x 1800 or 75600 if epic item pricing is the same (which I'm not sure of).

With DMM to get a lower CL, you have a much cheaper item, but I'm not sure it would work RAW since it's a Level 10 Spell as far as the item is concerned and those have a minimum CL of 21? (17?).

With the non-epic at all version it costs Spell Level 4 x Caster Level 7 x use activated 2000 x multiplier for making a round/level spell continuous (people always forget this in their custom items) or 224000... which makes it an epic item.

unosarta
2011-02-13, 06:10 PM
So, in the end, Command word is the actual effect that should be used? 7 rounds is plenty of time, and the duration can be increased by 11 rounds again by using extend spell, and increasing the cost by ~30k gp.

Rasman
2011-02-13, 06:28 PM
[Edit]: With your calculations, you are persisting it, correct? If so, then unless you are using DMM, it should be increasing the spell slot by 6 levels. If you yourself are making it, this becomes easy if you have DMM. If you are hiring a cleric to make it, then you had better make sure that they have DMM, or you will be spending quite a bit of money.

Alternatively, you appear to be buying it from an epic caster. If this is for an actual game, where would you find one? They usually hang out on their own personal demi-plane... :smallsigh:

Where he got the ring isn't really important since it's a high level/uber optimization game. I was assuming Divine Metamagic since that's a drastic reduction in price. Getting it from a guild cleric or something like that wouldn't be too far fetched considering we're fighting things like Advanced Psionic Psudonatural Shogoths. Ok...maybe not Psudonatural at level 16-18, but Advanced and Psionic...still...

If it's a crafted magic item that isn't in the MIC or any other source, we tend to assume DMM considering the GM running the game is practically made of cheese.

unosarta
2011-02-13, 06:37 PM
Where he got the ring isn't really important since it's a high level/uber optimization game. I was assuming Divine Metamagic since that's a drastic reduction in price. Getting it from a guild cleric or something like that wouldn't be too far fetched considering we're fighting things like Advanced Psionic Psudonatural Shogoths. Ok...maybe not Psudonatural at level 16-18, but Advanced and Psionic...still...

If it's a crafted magic item that isn't in the MIC or any other source, we tend to assume DMM considering the GM running the game is practically made of cheese.

Look at Zaydos' post. It is still 224000 gp, which is 95% of your wealth at 16, over half of your wealth at seventeen, and just around half at eighteen. Also, it is an epic item, since any item with a market price of 200k gp or more is epic.

So, that isn't really an option.

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 06:44 PM
Look at Zaydos' post. It is still 224000 gp, which is 95% of your wealth at 16, over half of your wealth at seventeen, and just around half at eighteen. Also, it is an epic item, since any item with a market price of 200k gp or more is epic.

So, that isn't really an option.

But that was a continuously active one made by RAW and without metamagic. RAW magic item creation rules never take into account metamagic reducers which would change things significantly. With metamagic reducers in effect you could get a CL 20 version that is persisted and usable 1/day for a mere 28,800 GP (CL 20, Spell level 4, command word activated, 1/day). If the DM allows it to be applied. I'm not sure on epic pricing but with DMM allowed (RAW, RAI, and balance make me want to scream at even suggesting such a thing) CL 21, 1/day with command word would be 37,800 GP.

unosarta
2011-02-13, 06:50 PM
But that was a continuously active one made by RAW and without metamagic. RAW magic item creation rules never take into account metamagic reducers which would change things significantly. With metamagic reducers in effect you could get a CL 20 version that is persisted and usable 1/day for a mere 28,800 GP (CL 20, Spell level 4, command word activated, 1/day). If the DM allows it to be applied. I'm not sure on epic pricing but with DMM allowed (RAW, RAI, and balance make me want to scream at even suggesting such a thing) CL 21, 1/day with command word would be 37,800 GP.

We-ell, if you are going to go down DMM lane, you could get it cheaper than that, more than likely.

Cleric with 16 Charisma can sacrifice 6 turn attempts per day in order to persist the spell and create the item. They need a base level 3 for feats, (or less, with flaws/human) and a base 7 caster level for the spell.

(4*7*1800)/5 = 10,080 gp.

So... so much cheese...

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 07:03 PM
We-ell, if you are going to go down DMM lane, you could get it cheaper than that, more than likely.

Cleric with 16 Charisma can sacrifice 6 turn attempts per day in order to persist the spell and create the item. They need a base level 3 for feats, (or less, with flaws/human) and a base 7 caster level for the spell.

(4*7*1800)/5 = 10,080 gp.

So... so much cheese...

And it would get dispelled encounter 1. That's why I didn't list that as I assumed the initial CL 21 had some purpose.

Rasman
2011-02-13, 07:09 PM
We-ell, if you are going to go down DMM lane, you could get it cheaper than that, more than likely.

Cleric with 16 Charisma can sacrifice 6 turn attempts per day in order to persist the spell and create the item. They need a base level 3 for feats, (or less, with flaws/human) and a base 7 caster level for the spell.

(4*7*1800)/5 = 10,080 gp.

So... so much cheese...

the thread is called "Craft Cheese" for a reason :D

That price smells Gouda to me. Especially since I don't care about the Temp HP part of the spell anyway.


And it would get dispelled encounter 1. That's why I didn't list that as I assumed the initial CL 21 had some purpose.

Although...good point...

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 07:10 PM
the thread is called "Craft Cheese" for a reason :D

That price smells Gouda to me. Especially since I don't care about the Temp HP part of the spell anyway.

Just make sure you can keep it from being dispelled.

Rasman
2011-02-13, 07:15 PM
Just make sure you can keep it from being dispelled.

encase it in lead you say?

I don't think we'll have a lot of trouble with Dispel, tbh. We don't speak of Disjunction for...reasons...

Warlawk
2011-02-13, 07:18 PM
I'll admit I am not heavily familiar with the magic item creation rules, but this is the first thread I have ever heard mention of using metamagic in the creation of a magic item.

In fact, the SRD is quite clear on which items can be created with metamagic effects, rings are not one of them.



Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spellís higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesnít need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.


Emphasis mine. I'm just not going to comment on my thoughts regarding actually trying to play this at a table because I would probably end up with a warning or something.

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 07:22 PM
encase it in lead you say?

I don't think we'll have a lot of trouble with Dispel, tbh. We don't speak of Disjunction for...reasons...

Not talking about the item, but it's effect (which means lead won't help at all). The cheap way presented is a 1/day item with CL 7 effect. Which means that it can be dispelled with a targeted Dispel Magic (3rd level spell) cast by a 10th level enemy 65% of the time. Throw in Greater Dispel Magic and you're almost certainly back down to your initial BAB.

Now if you're saying you have spells up that protect you against dispel magic then that's good (I know of one that would be a +5 versus it so 40% chance; there might be more).

Also note for 50400 GP you could have it at-will command word so you could laugh off the effects of it being dispelled.

Disjunction is a whole different case of worms.

holywhippet
2011-02-13, 07:28 PM
If you were to craft a Ring of Divine Power, thus giving you Divine Power as a continuous effect, would it affect your BAB in regards to feat selection?

For example, a Wizard normally has a BAB of +5 at level 10, with a Ring of Divine Power, his BAB is treated at a +10. Would he be able to take combat feats that required a BAB of +10 or would he still be limited by his natural BAB?

My reasoning behind asking this is that the spells states



It doesn't say it's an enhancement bonus, it just BECOMES it. Thoughts?

I'd say no chance in hell of this working unless your DM is drunk at the time or something. Even if it's a permanent effect from an item - it's still treated as a temporary effect. It's much the same as having an item that gives you a bonus to your INT stat. Doesn't matter if you wear it 24/7 - you don't get extra skill points when you level up.

tyckspoon
2011-02-13, 07:31 PM
you don't get extra skill points when you level up.

That's only because the rules for that explicitly tell you the item doesn't apply for that specific use. The vast, vast majority of situations don't make a distinction between 'temporary', 'permanent', 'innate', or any other source of a bonus- just whether or not you have it. Really. Go check. We'll wait. You may find it unacceptably cheesy, and if you're DM it's certainly with your prerogative to deny using an item or spell to qualify for something, but don't claim it's because RAW says it doesn't work.

Jarian
2011-02-13, 07:32 PM
Doesn't matter if you wear it 24/7 - you don't get extra skill points when you level up.

That's actually a specific exception to the rules. You can use a Belt of Giant's Strength to qualify for Power Attack, and so on and so forth.

Not that I think this item would fly in a normal game, but he did say it was high-op. *shrug*

Rasman
2011-02-13, 08:31 PM
Not talking about the item, but it's effect (which means lead won't help at all). The cheap way presented is a 1/day item with CL 7 effect. Which means that it can be dispelled with a targeted Dispel Magic (3rd level spell) cast by a 10th level enemy 65% of the time. Throw in Greater Dispel Magic and you're almost certainly back down to your initial BAB.

Now if you're saying you have spells up that protect you against dispel magic then that's good (I know of one that would be a +5 versus it so 40% chance; there might be more).

Also note for 50400 GP you could have it at-will command word so you could laugh off the effects of it being dispelled.

Disjunction is a whole different case of worms.

I both love and hate this game so much...SO many things to consider...it just makes you paranoid. At Will Command Word would be fitting though...do you mean a +50400 or 50400gp totaled?


That's actually a specific exception to the rules. You can use a Belt of Giant's Strength to qualify for Power Attack, and so on and so forth.

Not that I think this item would fly in a normal game, but he did say it was high-op. *shrug*

This game is pretty far from normal. Let me give you can example of something the DM GAVE a player.

The player in question is a Dervish, that's only slightly important to consider until you learn that the weapon is Laminated and Serrated and Keen and Wounding and is a +5 Weapon, without the +5 from Weapon Enhancements (I can't remember what else is on it, but something with a +3, I think Speed)

Needless to say, it's hard for him to NOT crit, his crit range is somewhere around 12-15 if I remember right, and when he does, it does nasty things.

Even if I had to pay full price of what was originally suggested, I REALLY wouldn't feel bad about it after, during character creation, he just let him have that at no cost.

But as I said...this game is FAR from normal and the deadly factor is though the roof, so cheesed cheese is well in hand.

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 08:35 PM
50,400 total; note that if it is dispelled it will still take a standard action to reactivate and 1d4 rounds of waiting, but it gives you something. So it's something to think about and consider.

Does your DM often throw Dispel effects at the party?

MeeposFire
2011-02-13, 08:40 PM
If he does not use dispel before he might now.

Jarian
2011-02-13, 08:40 PM
Also, if you're worried about being dispelled, just grab a Ring of Spell-Battle (MIC 127, 12k gp)

Automatically become aware of all spellcasting going on in an area around you, and 1/day redirect any spell you want to another area.

Also, if you know the specific kinds of dispels being thrown at you (Greater dispel? Spell Theft? Reaving Dispel?) you can get a Ring of Counterspells with that in it, and refill it whenever you need to.

Rasman
2011-02-13, 09:14 PM
50,400 total; note that if it is dispelled it will still take a standard action to reactivate and 1d4 rounds of waiting, but it gives you something. So it's something to think about and consider.

Does your DM often throw Dispel effects at the party?

Not really. I think once in the 3 years I've played with him, and that was Pixies, so nothing I'm overly concerned with.


Also, if you're worried about being dispelled, just grab a Ring of Spell-Battle (MIC 127, 12k gp)

Automatically become aware of all spellcasting going on in an area around you, and 1/day redirect any spell you want to another area.

Also, if you know the specific kinds of dispels being thrown at you (Greater dispel? Spell Theft? Reaving Dispel?) you can get a Ring of Counterspells with that in it, and refill it whenever you need to.

Ring of Spell-Battle might be golden. Does that technically mean I could force him to dispel himself?

BTW Jarian, I just read the first link in your Sig, the one by Runestar...I think I almost luled my face off...

Jarian
2011-02-13, 09:21 PM
Ring of Spell-Battle might be golden. Does that technically mean I could force him to dispel himself?

Him, his allies, his little dog... unless the spell specifically forbids that target or he's outside of the redirect range, you can do whatever you want with his targeting.


BTW Jarian, I just read the first link in your Sig, the one by Runestar...I think I almost luled my face off...

TOB IS ANIME!1! WUXIAAAA! :smallfurious:

Rasman
2011-02-13, 09:36 PM
Him, his allies, his little dog... unless the spell specifically forbids that target or he's outside of the redirect range, you can do whatever you want with his targeting.



TOB IS ANIME!1! WUXIAAAA! :smallfurious:

*wrings hand manically* yeeeeeeeesssssssss...his little dog...

It's damn good anime, at least it makes melee less boring though. I do love me some ToB.

But, srsly, Psioncs is more anime than ToB...I didn't realize it until someone on the BG forums pointed it out...but it's true...

unosarta
2011-02-13, 09:44 PM
I wonder what happens when you reach epic levels with that ring. Does it go to epic progression of BAB, or just make it equal to the hit dice of the caster?

Either way, problem solved with the power of cheese!

Also! Doesn't Abjurant Champion set the character's caster level equal to their BAB? Someone should take that and run with it. In fact, if you have the item when you leveled up, you could go straight Wizard 5>AbjChamp. And then some other prestige class, I don't know.

Does anyone know if this is viable or not?

Jarian
2011-02-13, 09:48 PM
Does anyone know if this is viable or not?

Increasing your CL is all well and good, but if you're taking hits to your actual spellcasting progression, it's basically trash. You can have as high a caster level as you want*, and if you aren't learning new spell levels, you're going to be trounced by someone who is.

*Assuming you aren't using Reserves of Strength and CL 100 or something absurd.

unosarta
2011-02-13, 09:53 PM
Increasing your CL is all well and good, but if you're taking hits to your actual spellcasting progression, it's basically trash. You can have as high a caster level as you want*, and if you aren't learning new spell levels, you're going to be trounced by someone who is.

*Assuming you aren't using Reserves of Strength and CL 100 or something absurd.

I was saying that you didn't have to lose any spell levels, because your BAB at level 5 would already be 5, with the ring. It honestly doesn't make that much of a difference, since it isn't really altogether that powerful of a PrC, but it seemed like it could have been interesting.

Jarian
2011-02-13, 09:55 PM
I was saying that you didn't have to lose any spell levels, because your BAB at level 5 would already be 5, with the ring. It honestly doesn't make that much of a difference, since it isn't really altogether that powerful of a PrC, but it seemed like it could have been interesting.

Oh!

Well.

I completely missed the point of your post, then. Yes, you could technically use the ring to qualify for Abjurant Champion at level 5. Though it's of dubious usefulness, given that you'd have full BAB anyway, and any game that allowed such a ring that early would probably be better served by entering Incantatrix or something.

OracleofWuffing
2011-02-13, 10:00 PM
I both love and hate this game so much...SO many things to consider...it just makes you paranoid. At Will Command Word would be fitting though...do you mean a +50400 or 50400gp totaled?
Another thing to consider is that for 50,400 gp, you could get five of the cheap rings, and just swap 'em out as they get dispelled.

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 10:02 PM
Another thing to consider is that for 50,400 gp, you could get five of the cheap rings, and just swap 'em out as they get dispelled.

Which takes two move actions to swap right? So it would be a full-round action and then a standard action instead of 1d4 rounds at lowered BAB and then a standard action. Either works it's just which you prefer.

Rasman
2011-02-13, 10:07 PM
Which takes two move actions to swap right? So it would be a full-round action and then a standard action instead of 1d4 rounds at lowered BAB and then a standard action. Either works it's just which you prefer.

OR I could have the feat "More Rings" and just wear 4 of them :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2011-02-13, 10:08 PM
Which takes two move actions to swap right? So it would be a full-round action and then a standard action instead of 1d4 rounds at lowered BAB and then a standard action. Either works it's just which you prefer.

Or you can wear them all and just arbitrarily declare which one you want active. There's no rule against wearing multiple pieces of jewelry, just about which ones are active magic items.

OracleofWuffing
2011-02-13, 10:09 PM
...I was going to suggest dropping the dispelled ring as a free action, but ah, yeah, all those probably work better. :smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2011-02-13, 10:26 PM
So... A quick scan of the first page brings up an obvious, horrendous mistake on EVERYONES part.

Divine power is NOT based on caster level, it's based on character level. A level five character benefiting from a CL 200 divine power still has a BaB of only +5. Likewise, a level 40 wizard with a CL 12 divine power still has a BaB of +40.

Dispeling suppresses the ring for d4 rounds. Disjunction isn't resistible on the normal sense. So go for the cheapest method possible; minimum CL and constant effect on a ring.

Jarian
2011-02-13, 10:28 PM
So... A quick scan of the first page brings up an obvious, horrendous mistake on EVERYONES part.

[...etc]

I think I missed the part where people were assuming you got CL of ring = BAB. Either that or my mind blanked it out to avoid damage.

I was under the impression the ring was being used to give a Wizard BAB = character level.

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 10:28 PM
So... A quick scan of the first page brings up an obvious, horrendous mistake on EVERYONES part.

Divine power is NOT based on caster level, it's based on character level. A level five character benefiting from a CL 200 divine power still has a BaB of only +5. Likewise, a level 40 wizard with a CL 12 divine power still has a BaB of +40.

Dispeling suppresses the ring for d4 rounds. Disjunction isn't resistible on the normal sense. So go for the cheapest method possible; minimum CL and constant effect on a ring.

Exactly why I said an at-will item because the Effect and the Ring can get dispelled from a targetted dispel magic (although I did make a mistake in not distinguishing the two in my math as it makes it only 42.25% likely that both will fail at once from a dispel magic, or much more from Greater Dispel Magic).

SiuiS
2011-02-13, 10:48 PM
I wonder what happens when you reach epic levels with that ring. Does it go to epic progression of BAB, or just make it equal to the hit dice of the caster?
monsters can have BaB higher than 20, so theoretically an item, spell or power that let's you jump off the rails of PC BaB progression could give you a higher than 20, non-epic-progression attack bonus. Not that it really anthers at that point, as both spellcasting for armor and attack bonuses are high enough for you to be "always hit target" or never hit the target". That game sucks.


I think I missed the part where people were assuming you got CL of ring = BAB. Either that or my mind blanked it out to avoid damage.

I was under the impression the ring was being used to give a Wizard BAB = character level.EDIT:
it may be definitely was a flawed assumption on my part, in which case I'm sorry for any offense; but there was talk of high CL even after discussion of dispel being a marginal issue, and I think I saw one of the first posts say "ECL 5 character with CL 10 ring gets BaB +10" and no one corrected it. I'll double check though. I seem to have gotten a touch dyslexic. I switched around CL and ECL in a couple posts. My faux pas.

MeeposFire
2011-02-13, 10:58 PM
I wonder what happens when you reach epic levels with that ring. Does it go to epic progression of BAB, or just make it equal to the hit dice of the caster?

Either way, problem solved with the power of cheese!

Also! Doesn't Abjurant Champion set the character's caster level equal to their BAB? Someone should take that and run with it. In fact, if you have the item when you leveled up, you could go straight Wizard 5>AbjChamp. And then some other prestige class, I don't know.

Does anyone know if this is viable or not?

Depends on which edition of the 3e book you have.

Original 3e limits it to +20 BAB.

original 3.5 left it unresolved

the 3.5 special edition or whatever it was called that was made after the original 3.5 book limits it to +20.

So in the end you can get up to +20 and then you get your normal epic bonus on top of that like you should, as long as you use the latest.

Zaydos
2011-02-13, 11:05 PM
Depends on which edition of the 3e book you have.

Original 3e limits it to +20 BAB.

original 3.5 left it unresolved

the 3.5 special edition or whatever it was called that was made after the original 3.5 book limits it to +20.

So in the end you can get up to +20 and then you get your normal epic bonus on top of that like you should, as long as you use the latest.

Gold Edition which had the rules errata built... then things (but not this) got errata'd further for the Rules Compendium (which actually mostly consolidated things from the DMG, PHB, and a few other books that introduced new rules that were integrated into later books but not actually part of the core system such as swift actions).

Coidzor
2011-02-13, 11:19 PM
If you were to craft a Ring of Divine Power, thus giving you Divine Power as a continuous effect, would it affect your BAB in regards to feat selection?

For example, a Wizard normally has a BAB of +5 at level 10, with a Ring of Divine Power, his BAB is treated at a +10. Would he be able to take combat feats that required a BAB of +10 or would he still be limited by his natural BAB?

I see it as the same as qualifying for power attack by using a belt of giant strength or ITWF with gloves of dexterity. So I'd say yes.

56K*4 as the recommended price is probably a bit low... though one would have to be 11th level to afford it at all and between 13th and 14th level before it becomes less than half one's WBL. On the other hand, BAB is overvalued as it is... 160K might be a bit high (giving a CL of 20 to the creator) as it can't be afforded until 15th level and drops below half WBL at 17th. Must have CL 12 to make a ring though, so that'd be 96K... can't get it until most of the way to 13th level and it drops below half wbl at level 15.

So with each of those hypothetical prices, it takes about 2-3 levels before one could conceivably save enough gold and survive to make it at cost, and probably a couple after that before it could really be budgeted for purchase at full price. So... 15th, 17th, and 18th-19th are the three levels I can see it being realistically obtainable by a character in regards to wealth expenditure alone. And once 9th level spells are getting slung around, BAB isn't worth quite so much anyway... So I wouldn't say the item was broken and needed banning from most games since it'd only be a factor in high level play without a departure from the guidelines' recommendations on the side of making the item cheaper.

Sure, a +10 to hit on a wizard's weaker ray spells is fairly powerful, but if he's a fullcaster at level 20, he has a lot nastier things he could do... It's worthless to a fighter/barbarian charger, of only minor value to most gishes since 17 BAB/17 CL seems to be the sweet spot most builds aim for, and full-classed medium BAB types it's a +5, good and granting an extra attack but only really gamebreaking when one is also tanky enough (like a cleric who can already do this without an item) to replace the beatsticks. A rogue with +5 to attack in addition to all of his other plusses just hits a fair bit more often. And Druids are already strong enough that the power boost of +5 BAB isn't going to really change the nature of the game (and needs wilding clasps which are a separate issue).

Multiclass characters who've managed to get BAB below 15 or 16 and who still want to hit things or Incarnates(1/2 BAB types who can melee quite well in spite of it IIRC) seem to be the market that would most want this sort of item... And I'm not really sure if I'm familiar with enough builds of that type to evaluate the impact of them getting full BAB.

But since full BAB seems to be overvalued, I'd guess not that much, other than highlighting the deficiencies that most Full BAB classes have been saddled with. But that'd already be done in a high level campaign....

Edit: Ah, yes. Ye olde x4 modifier. 224K, 384K, and 640K.

640K is definitely way too much for way too little.

I'd probably average the 160K or 96K with the 224K or 384K personally.

On the other hand, the average of 56K and 640K is 348K...

MeeposFire
2011-02-13, 11:24 PM
Gold Edition which had the rules errata built... then things (but not this) got errata'd further for the Rules Compendium (which actually mostly consolidated things from the DMG, PHB, and a few other books that introduced new rules that were integrated into later books but not actually part of the core system such as swift actions).

It is too bad that they did not bother to update it in the SRD. That would help the confusion. I remember getting into a large discussion on the WotC board when it came up. That is the only reason I heard of the Gold edition eratta.