[3.5] half-orc question wanting to improve them for a game

[slaydemons]

If I made the dark vision go out less like half. would it be plausable to get rid of the minus to intellect or charisma I think that makes them far more attractive to me but I wanted to make sure its balanced as I personally don't think its balanced with -4 attributes

[Urpriest]

It doesn't have -4 attributes. It has +0 attributes, because Str is "worth" twice Int or Cha. That's how it gets calculated.

That said, half-orcs are indeed considered a weak race, but this is mostly because they lack any unique racial features. Humans get a bonus feat, Changelings shapeshift, Elves get some handy proficiencies, Dwarves get a lot of miscellaneous but handy resistances to things, etc. You need to give half-orcs some qualitatively different abilities to make them attractive, not just improve them quantitatively.

[Kuma Kode]

The reason they have unbalanced ability scores is due to the utility of the different abilities. Charisma is the widely used dump stat, because unless your character class specifically calls for it, you get almost no benefit and suffer almost no penalty from it.

Intelligence is similar. Unless it's powering your wizard spells or you're a skill-based class, you don't really need it.

Strength, however, is necessary across the board by all melee classes, and even spellcasters need it for their melee touch attacks. Likewise, if an enemy grapples you, you're going to be using your strength score whether you like it or not.

Strength is simply a more important attribute than the other two in general, which is why they would not otherwise be balanced.

The reason half-orc is a terrible race is not because of its ability scores, its the complete lack of racial features, compared to things like elves, gnomes, or dwarves. What you should look into is adding flavorful skill bonuses and abilities, not just numbers.

[slaydemons]

Hmm what kind of things should I give them I really want to make them seem appealing to my future players and any advice would make me happy

[gibbo88]

Give them the Orc double axe as a martial weapon could be a good start, since they are usually mellee characters.

[Dreadn4ught]

The above two posts got it. Half-orcs are below par because they really have no unique abilities, besides darkvision. The abilities are balanced already as well.

You should give them a very orc-ish racial ability, like some sort of non-barbarian rage that gives you an extra attack. Just a suggestion.

[HunterOfJello]

I use the pathfinder version for Half-Orcs. I hate how the half-human races were created in 3.5e

[LansXero]

Give them the Orc double axe as a martial weapon could be a good start, since they are usually mellee characters.

Give it to full orcs as well; I mean, if you are already tanking your mental stats, getting another +2 to STR would be neat. Or give the full orc adjustments to half-orcs.

Also perhaps addint Orc Shotput as a martial weapon?. And something with axes; +1 attack or damage wouldnt be too broken.

[gibbo88]

What do the pathfinder half-orcs get?

[slaydemons]

I use the pathfinder version for Half-Orcs. I hate how the half-human races were created in 3.5e

I just dislike how half orcs were made for soem reason i like half elves they have no bad stats and they don't get affected by sleep spells and stuff i like them

Edit:gibbo they get +2 to any stat

[Andion Isurand]

I currently give half-orcs the following, alterations marked in blue:

HALF-ORCS

# +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc's starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character's score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
# Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
# Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
# 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
# +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
# Mixed Heritage: At first level, choose whether you are considered Human or Orc for all effects related to race.
# Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
# Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-orc takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.


This puts their skill point total halfway between that of a full human and full orc.
Having any favored class matches what the half elf gets.

[slaydemons]

I currently give half-orcs the following, alterations marked in blue:

HALF-ORCS

# +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc's starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character's score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
# Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
# Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
# 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
# +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
# Mixed Heritage: At first level, choose whether you are considered Human or Orc for all effects related to race.
# Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
# Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-orc takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

this is very good i might print this out then use the pathfinder half orc background cause i like it

[Thurbane]

It doesn't have -4 attributes. It has +0 attributes, because Str is "worth" twice Int or Cha. That's how it gets calculated.
Except when Wotc contradicts their own rule, like they did with the Wood Elf, Skarn and Neanderthal...

Wood Elf: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT (elf stuff)
Skarn: +2 STR, -2 DEX (natural weapon, skill bonuses)
Neanderthal: +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT (primitive weapons, skill bonuses, climate tolerant, illiterate)

[Dexam]

One of my gaming groups using the following adjustments for half-orcs.
As per the PHB half-orc with the following changes:

Get rid of the -2 Charisma.
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate.
+2 racial bonus to Survival.
+4 racial bonus to saving throws against Diseases.

[Doc Roc]

Here's my two:
+2 Str
Bonus feat
-2 Int

[slaydemons]

thanks guys I now much agree with the first two statements though it pretty much means they aren't as sufficient paladins or wizards as other races.

[tyckspoon]

thanks guys I now much agree with the first two statements though it pretty much means they aren't as sufficient paladins or wizards as other races.

That's going to be true of some class or another unless you abandon the idea of racial penalties altogether, and even then as long as there are racial bonuses certain races will still be better at certain classes.

[Andion Isurand]

Well, as far as paladins go, the Serenity feat would move all charisma based paladin abilities to wisdom... good for dwarves and orcs alike.

[mabriss lethe]

The Desert Half-Orcs from Unearthed Arcana are a decent start, but still rather bland.

+2 Con, -2 Int
*Run* as a bonus feat(but kinda useless in 90% of the games I've been in)
Low light vision instead of Dark vision.
+4 fort saves Vs. the effects of hot weather.

[Land Outcast]

Where's the Serenity feat from?

[slaydemons]

Where's the Serenity feat from?

I also wish to know

[Thurbane]

It's one of the licensed Dragonlance books...Test of the Twins, maybe?

My mistake, Dragon 306, reprinted in the Dragon Compendium.

[slaydemons]

hmmmyou know hearing the name dragon makes me wish i somehow had acess to dragon magazine old and new issues but now i got to look up a new compodium to buy <.<

[Thurbane]

If you can get hold of it, Dragon Magazine Compendium is great. Lots of feats, PrCs, base classes, monsters, weapons and magic items.

[slaydemons]

you think i get it with a subscription when i get moola?

[Serpentine]

If you want alternate half-orcs, here's the one I use in my games:

• +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence.
A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
• Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
• If raised by humans, half-orcs gain one extra feat at first level. If raised by orcs, all orc weapons are considered martial rather than exotic.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
• Favoured Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

[MeeposFire]

Except when Wotc contradicts their own rule, like they did with the Wood Elf, Skarn and Neanderthal...

Wood Elf: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT (elf stuff)
Skarn: +2 STR, -2 DEX (natural weapon, skill bonuses)
Neanderthal: +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT (primitive weapons, skill bonuses, climate tolerant, illiterate)


I think that is because their attitude changed as time went along. At first they thought str was an important stat and that required additional penalties. Later on they found out that a bonus to str was not a big deal especially in 3e. So they then allowed for a bonus for str without a bunch of extra penalties. For some reason I recall reading this somewhere.

[Land Outcast]

Dragon Compendium... neat... Half orc paladin, excellent.

By the way Thurbane, you've got some kickass tools in your sig, thanks for that too.

[Thurbane]

Dragon Compendium... neat... Half orc paladin, excellent.

By the way Thurbane, you've got some kickass tools in your sig, thanks for that too.
Cheers - always nice to hear they're useful. :smallsmile:

[Arutema]

What do the pathfinder half-orcs get?



* +2 to One Ability Score: Half-orc characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
* Medium: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Normal Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
* Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet (see darkvision.)
* Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks due to their fearsome nature.
* Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
* Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
* Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
* Languages: Half-orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, and Goblin.


Source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc)

If you want to use them in 3.5, you may want to ditch the +2 to any ability score, because humans (and half-elves) get that as well in Pathfinder.

[Yora]

My quick and dirty fix is to just drop the -2 Int.

For Half-Elves, I just give them the +1 Skill Point per level.

Not a perfect fix, but it's simply and clearly better than RAW.


Making Orc Double Axes a martial weapon for half-orcs doesn't work for me. It's a silly weapon and even if the DM allows it (which I certainly don't) it's only a single bonus feat if the character actually uses that weapon. And I don't see many half-orc archetypes that would do so.

[Cogidubnus]

A friend of mine a while back had a WoW D20 book. It was basically a DnD settings book. Orcs there got a +1 to attacks with claws and all claw weapons (stacks with weapon focus), proficiency with the orc claw (setting-specific weapon), and a 1/rage like a barbarian. Replace claw with, say, axes and you're shining.

(Incidentally, these orcs had basically the same stats as DnD half-orcs).

[Serpentine]

Making Orc Double Axes a martial weapon for half-orcs doesn't work for me. It's a silly weapon and even if the DM allows it (which I certainly don't) it's only a single bonus feat if the character actually uses that weapon. And I don't see many half-orc archetypes that would do so.In my games, pretty much any race gets the weapons specific to that race as a martial weapon instead of exotic. Just makes more sense to me *shrug*

[Yora]

I'd rather make the battleaxe a simple weapon for orcs. This allows orc rogues and clerics to use them without investing a feat and helps more to have more iconic orcishness than giving a very uncommon weapon proficiency to orc fighters. (Are the any viable double weapon builds for barbarians at mid-level?)

[Serpentine]

Checked the d20srd to compare. I dunno that I could go that far, it's just not similarly simple to any of the other simple weapons.
Having said that, I pretty much have a policy in my games that "if it makes sense, you can do it", so I can see someone convincing me to allow it.

edit: I've just given myself an argument for it. For starters, half-orcs are already generally sub-par. For seconds, they have a pretty martial society so it's not unreasonable for a tribe to raise their children on a weapon from before they can walk.
So, going to my houserule, what if I said a half-orc raised by orcs, in addition to getting all orc weapons as martial weapons, they could have one orc weapon as a simple weapon? If I did do that, should I add something to the raised-by-humans option?

[gibbo88]

Maybe give them bonus skill points/level or something?

[hewhosaysfish]

In my games, pretty much any race gets the weapons specific to that race as a martial weapon instead of exotic. Just makes more sense to me *shrug*

But if you give half-orc (easier) proficiency with double axes then they might be tricked into actually wielding one. And that's the last thing the poor half-orc needs.

[true_shinken]

Wood Elf: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT (elf stuff)
This one is alright. Con=Str in their tables.



Skarn: +2 STR, -2 DEX (natural weapon, skill bonuses)
Same here.


Neanderthal: +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT (primitive weapons, skill bonuses, climate tolerant, illiterate)

It's also kosher. Str is balanced by Dex and Con balanced by Int.

[Thurbane]

So...WotC consider CHA to be the only dump stat? :smallconfused:

If +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT is balanced, then +2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA is not...not to mention that all of the races above get more/better racial abilities than 1/2 Orcs do.

[Savannah]

So...WotC consider CHA to be the only dump stat? :smallconfused:

No, they considered physical stats to be equal to two mental stats. So +2 physical, -2 mental, -2 mental would be balanced, as would +2 mental, +2 mental, -2 physical. I believe it's covered in the DMG when they talk about homebrewing races.


If +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT is balanced, then +2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA is not...not to mention that all of the races above get more/better racial abilities than 1/2 Orcs do.

If you look at it with each physical stat being worth 2 and each mental stat being worth 1 (because physical are worth twice mental), the first is 2+2-2-1 = 1. So it's slightly high, and probably has other racial features that WotC consider slightly lower than normal. The second is 2-1-1= 0. So it's balanced. At least according to WotC's guidelines :smallwink:

[Telonius]

My own homebrew for Half-Orcs:

+2 Str, -2 Int
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate (Homebrew note: full-blooded orcs get a +4)
Darkvision 60 feet
Weapon Familiarity: Orc Double Axe (and other similar orc-themed weapons) are treated as a Martial weapon rather than an Exotic weapon
At character creation, choose either a bonus feat or +4 skill points at first level/+1 each additional level. (Half-Elves also get this).

[Urpriest]

No, they considered physical stats to be equal to two mental stats. So +2 physical, -2 mental, -2 mental would be balanced, as would +2 mental, +2 mental, -2 physical. I believe it's covered in the DMG when they talk about homebrewing races.



If you look at it with each physical stat being worth 2 and each mental stat being worth 1 (because physical are worth twice mental), the first is 2+2-2-1 = 1. So it's slightly high, and probably has other racial features that WotC consider slightly lower than normal. The second is 2-1-1= 0. So it's balanced. At least according to WotC's guidelines :smallwink:

Additional note: WotC also thinks than Con is about equal to the mental stats, so Con can be used to balance out a mental stat or a physical one. Wood Elf doesn't fit either, true, but it's also a monster race.

[nedz]

No, they considered physical stats to be equal to two mental stats. So +2 physical, -2 mental, -2 mental would be balanced, as would +2 mental, +2 mental, -2 physical. I believe it's covered in the DMG when they talk about homebrewing races.

If you look at it with each physical stat being worth 2 and each mental stat being worth 1 (because physical are worth twice mental), the first is 2+2-2-1 = 1. So it's slightly high, and probably has other racial features that WotC consider slightly lower than normal. The second is 2-1-1= 0. So it's balanced. At least according to WotC's guidelines :smallwink:

Ah yes - casters are weak, melle rules :smallamused:
It helps to explain a lot of things :smallbiggrin:

[true_shinken]

Ah yes - casters are weak, melle rules :smallamused:
It helps to explain a lot of things :smallbiggrin:
No, casters just don't benefit as much as melee from a high starting stat. :smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

My 2 cents - WotC assigner a higher "value" to physical stats is just bonkers. It's so dependant on the character (class), that it is silly trying to assign different importance to different stats. What use does a Wizard really have for 2 points of STR? It isn't going to make the slightest difference in 95% of cases - he's (usually) not wearing armor, not carrying heavy weapons...

Conversely, precisely none of the base races get a bonus to a mental stat, so WotC obviously thought that getting a bonus to these was over powered.

I just can't make sense of their reasoning. :smalleek:

[Kuma Kode]

Well, you can be forced quite easily to use a physical stat, whether you like it or not. If you're attacked, your Dex will determine your AC, your Con will determine the hit points you have to survive the attack, and your Strength will come into play if you get grappled, tripped, or bull-rushed, regardless of your class.

Intelligence, however, never really comes into play if your class doesn't need it. I can't think of any way for an enemy to say "HA! Succeed on an Intelligence check or die!"

Charisma is likewise in that lonely, tiny boat drifting down the river of Niche.

Wisdom is the only mental stat that is at all linked with survival (Will saves).

[Thurbane]

Intelligence, however, never really comes into play if your class doesn't need it. I can't think of any way for an enemy to say "HA! Succeed on an Intelligence check or die!"
Well, if you've got no ranks in an important skill (Climb, Swim or whatever), it's probably because (at least in part) of a low INT.

Charisma is likewise in that lonely, tiny boat drifting down the river of Niche.
True - CHA has always been the traditional dump stat...

Wisdom is the only mental stat that is at all linked with survival (Will saves).
Not to mention Spot, Listen and Sense Motive checks, which can often be vital to your character's safety.

Point taken, but I still maintain that, IMHO, it is so build specific, I can see no value in assigning different values to different stats.

[Kuma Kode]

Point taken, but I still maintain that, IMHO, it is so build specific, I can see no value in assigning different values to different stats. When building core, it seems they didn't agree. However, it became clear to everyone involved as 3.0/3.5 progressed that some of the core assumptions the game is built on were flawed.

Hence why things like the warlock and the Tome of Battle classes came into being: 3.5 began to evolve away from the assumptions it had about how the mechanics would function.

[Demidos]

Dragon Compendium... neat... Half orc paladin, excellent.

By the way Thurbane, you've got some kickass tools in your sig, thanks for that too.

+1, that stuff is amazing!:smallsmile:

[slaydemons]

well this has stirred up some debate on half orc getting the bad end of humans and orc

[FMArthur]

I really can't help but think that their race designers actually did understand the game's balance leanings and were correspondingly so stingy about giving out mental ability score bonuses - very few of which come without a Con penalty. And then someone else entirely decided to make Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, and pull something out of their ass to write a segment on the (very opinionated) relative value of stats. Maybe they were roleplaying an Orc barbarian during the writing.

No wait, I've got it. Nobody at WotC ever wanted to play casters, and assumed that no one else wanted to either. Suddenly it all fits together. :smallsigh:

[slaydemons]

I really can't help but think that their race designers actually did understand the game's balance leanings and were correspondingly so stingy about giving out mental ability score bonuses - very few of which come without a Con penalty. And then someone else entirely decided to make Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, and pull something out of their ass to write a segment on the (very opinionated) relative value of stats. Maybe they were roleplaying an Orc barbarian during the writing.

No wait, I've got it. Nobody at WotC ever wanted to play casters, and assumed that no one else wanted to either. Suddenly it all fits together. :smallsigh:

... wait but why would caster be so.... they never.... IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE

[lightningcat]

How about we not turn this into a "WotC didn't know what they were doing thread." After all that was NOT what the OP asked.

My fix:
+2 Con
+2 Survial and Intimidate
counts as both human and orc
extra skill point
I also use the Weapon Group system and give them one extra weapon group feat.

It might put them into the over powered catagory, but so far it hasn't been an issue.

[slaydemons]

yeah but I still want a half orc artificier because its obviously awesome

[Andion Isurand]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a

+2 Con, +2 Int, -4 Cha ...FTW?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Half-Orcs are one of the few races that is fully optimizable. As such, they don't need homebrew, just ingenuity. See my optimized races niche compendi

[Bugbeartrap]

It always makes me sad to think of the mechanics that half-orcs are saddled with, even in Pathfinder. The most shiny thing they got (the adjustable +2) was given to humans, the champ of PHB races, as well. Did anyone get excited for the pathfinder "buff"? Once a day they can fight as disabled if below zero and above death. Enjoy your single move or standard action then die. That's a sad sad version of die hard, which no one wants to take anyway. Its a joke. It's almost insulting with once a day.

Rant over and time for advice. I'd give them the weapon familiarity for anything except the orc double axe. I also wouldn't feel bad about letting them pick one mental penalty to remove. Heck throw in all the skill bonuses and other suggestions, at least then a player might be happy to pick a half-orc.

[Andion Isurand]

Many consider the PF half-orc to be the second or third best choice for any type of spellcaster because of that extra standard action in which they can pull off a spell if brought below 0.

[MeeposFire]

My quick and dirty fix is to just drop the -2 Int.

For Half-Elves, I just give them the +1 Skill Point per level.

Not a perfect fix, but it's simply and clearly better than RAW.


Making Orc Double Axes a martial weapon for half-orcs doesn't work for me. It's a silly weapon and even if the DM allows it (which I certainly don't) it's only a single bonus feat if the character actually uses that weapon. And I don't see many half-orc archetypes that would do so.

That is a fix given by a designer in Unearthed Arcana. So you are in good company with that one.