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Talya
2011-02-14, 04:52 PM
Reading the entry in Dragon Compendium leaves me with more questions than answers.

Obviously it explicitly says casting a spell requires both Dvati twins to concentrate on the same action, but other than that...

Almost every Dvati feature is a liability rather than an asset. Half the hit points, mind controlling one gets them both, etc. Which leads me to wonder what their assets are? Better "aid another" or flanking bonuses? That's not worth a +1, it's not even worth the lower hit point totals. The only thing I can think of is -- do they actually get extra actions, apart from spellcasting? Can both Dvati simultaneously full attack? Can a Dvati scout have one of them run 10' while the other full attacks with skirmish damage? How do these things actually function?

Tyndmyr
2011-02-14, 04:57 PM
Not well. Everything to do with them is either a liability, or is undefined and makes your GMs head hurt. I don't recommend playing them in anything other than a solo game.

I believe both can act, though. So, there's a limited action advantage for melee only. Meh.

Aemoh87
2011-02-14, 05:00 PM
The real pain comes in that they take the same feats. So if one takes leadership so does the other. So that means they both have leadership. Take Great Diplomat with it and now you have 4 Cohorts at level six.

arguskos
2011-02-14, 05:01 PM
There is no RAW answer for the action economy question of the Dvati. It was never errata'd, and the closest thing there is to an "official" response was from a designer for Paizo who helped in their 3.5 entry for the Dragon Compendium in a thread on Paizo's site who said that the intent was that the Dvati have 1 full round worth of actions between them. This is clearly unplayably terrible.

Really, it's a DM nightmare, and it's recommended you don't bother with the race if you actually *like* your DM.

EDIT: Uh... that's not how they work dude. The character has Leadership. They get the effect once. They get one cohort. Two bodies=/=double effects.

Talya
2011-02-14, 05:36 PM
There is no RAW answer for the action economy question of the Dvati. It was never errata'd, and the closest thing there is to an "official" response was from a designer for Paizo who helped in their 3.5 entry for the Dragon Compendium in a thread on Paizo's site who said that the intent was that the Dvati have 1 full round worth of actions between them.

You might be able to pull some cheese with a rogue with multiweapon fighting monster feats out of that, but other than that...



This is clearly unplayably terrible.


Yeah, no kidding.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-02-14, 05:41 PM
Well if that's the case, then how would you make them playable then? If the ability for both of them to full attack and such in a round worth +1 LA with all the disadvantages?

FMArthur
2011-02-14, 05:42 PM
Well, when you have two bodies and no action advantage, the benefits seem a lot like some things I'm told that casters can do with familiars: you have two locations from which to calculate range, line of effect and line of sight. It's probably bad for survival to keep both within 40 feet of each other for AOE spell effects anyway.

Oh, and also reach and AoO area.

Thurbane
2011-02-14, 05:44 PM
My reading of their abilities seems to indicate they do get two sets of actions per round, which can be used for anything other than spellcasting...

FMArthur
2011-02-14, 05:50 PM
And in that case they are almost strictly better than any normal character. People just sort of stall when asked to optimize that because it really is just anything, but twice. Even a Soulknife would be okay - they'd even sort out their wealth limitation a bit. Twice the Wounding attacks could drop a foe pretty quickly. Two Dungeoncrashers could play pinball. Multiple "save on attack" maneuvers or weapon enhancements would work well.

I'd probably stick them in a specialized ranged-weaponry build to keep them from staying too close together in combat. Maybe that isn't optimal for huge damage potential but you don't want them to die to one Fireball, cause that's embarrassing.

Talya
2011-02-14, 05:56 PM
I'd probably stick them in a specialized ranged-weaponry build to keep them from staying too close together in combat. Maybe that isn't optimal for huge damage potential but you don't want them to die to one Fireball, cause that's embarrassing.

They'll die to one fireball even if you spread them out 300 miles. Kill one, you ultimately kill the other.

FMArthur
2011-02-14, 05:57 PM
They'll die to one fireball even if you spread them out 300 miles. Kill one, you ultimately kill the other.

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting that they don't share an HP total. They just have a little less than normal, separately.

arguskos
2011-02-14, 05:58 PM
Oh yeah. I keep forgetting that they don't share an HP total. They just have a little less than normal, separately.
And how if one dies, the other suffers stat damage constantly until it dies or the other is brought back to life. That's kinda, you know, relevant.

Talya
2011-02-14, 06:01 PM
Oh yeah. I keep forgetting that they don't share an HP total. They just have a little less than normal, separately.

A fair bit less, depending on class. They make weak barbarians/warblades, with that average 3.25 hit points per hit die. As rogues, though, their 1.75 average hit points per hit die is not as big a drop.

I'd say constitution would be incredibly valuable on them, with each twin getting their full CON bonus.

Assuming one full set of actions for both twins together, a rogue with multiweapon fighting is probably the only somewhat viable possibility, and even that becomes hard to play (movement is difficult.) If you manage a full attack while flanking with yourself, though, the enemy is seriously fracked.

Amnestic
2011-02-14, 06:09 PM
A Dragonfire Adept would be a pretty decent choice for a Dvati I think. They're massively focused on CON to begin with, and with two breath weapons with Entangling Exhalation or another battlefield-control addition, they might work quite well.

nedz
2011-02-14, 06:13 PM
Do they have to take the same class at each level ?
What if one get level drained ?

I was thinking that something with passive effects might work.
So Marshall, Dragon Shamen, ..., Bard ?

Do you think that identical twins would make a good musical act ?

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-14, 06:22 PM
Do SLAs / Eldritch Blast count as spells for Dvati spell limitations?

FMArthur
2011-02-14, 06:28 PM
No, but maybe they should. It's really hard to guage what abilities should and should not work. SLAs, Invocations and Psionics should not work, being essentially equivalent to spells, but most certainly do work by the rules as they are written. Martial maneuvers are quite a grey area that would be difficult to pin down one way or the other even trying to guage the RAI on it, since they share the way they are organized and learned with spells but are more comparable in their function to making special attacks via feats.

Talya
2011-02-14, 06:36 PM
it's interesting that a regular character is not as limited as a dvati while casting spells. A human, for instance, can cast a quickened spell, and then attack. A Dvati's twin cannot attack --or ultimately do anything at all-- in a round where their other half is casting a spell.

Thurbane
2011-02-14, 06:55 PM
A Dragonfire Adept would be a pretty decent choice for a Dvati I think. They're massively focused on CON to begin with, and with two breath weapons with Entangling Exhalation or another battlefield-control addition, they might work quite well.
Binder works fairly well, for similar reasons.

Typewriter
2011-02-14, 07:08 PM
My group originally thought that each body got a full round of actions, but I found a post on wizards forum a while back where the creator clarified that the intention was that they had to split their actions between the two bodies. Meaning one could do a single attack and the other could move, both could move as a double move, or you could split the attacks from a full attack up between the two of them(BAB 6 = 1 attacks at +6, the other gets an attack at +1 as a full round attack).

They're my favorite race to play, personally, just because I love the concept.

One Dvati character I created was a mystic theurge with a lot of HP and DR(mineral warrior + DR increasing feats). One body wore spiked mountain plate and had a spiked tower shield, while the other would cast spells like telepathy and false gravity to cause the spiked armor one to 'fall' into opponents.

Amnestic
2011-02-14, 07:15 PM
it's interesting that a regular character is not as limited as a dvati while casting spells. A human, for instance, can cast a quickened spell, and then attack. A Dvati's twin cannot attack --or ultimately do anything at all-- in a round where their other half is casting a spell.

The text says:


A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts.

So a single dvati can cast a quickened spell, and the other dvati could take a standard action afterwards...I think?

Prime32
2011-02-14, 08:50 PM
If you can manage to turn them into Outsiders with the [Evil] subtype (there are a few ways to pull this off), Fiend of Possession is by far the best use you can make of the dvati. They can possess two things at once, and their hp and equipment don't matter while doing so.

~Nye~
2011-02-14, 09:07 PM
As a DM I have managed them,
we had a d'vati Savant, the class is in the dragon compendium. I believe the aid another class feature worked for them being apart but being able to aid the same person in a skill trick made them viable. I've managed d'vati. Just be careful handling your squishies.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-14, 09:13 PM
They get completely destroyed by Power Word: Pain, considering it's mind-affecting and would deal full damage to both. A Mass Whelm spell that hits both twins would actually double-up on damage.

I'd say Crusader would be one of your best options, assuming they would have a shared pool of granted/readied maneuvers and they would be able to act separately when using them. They could use White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers to aid each other, such as Shield Block, and they would each separately get the full benefit of the delayed damage mechanic. The one taking damage could use Stone Power while the other used a Devoted Spirit maneuver to heal him. Constitution should be their highest priority, and I'd give them Craft: Armorsmithing so they could only pay 1/3 the price for armor and shields. They could work together to make something using Aid Another, or they could both make separate checks and finish twice as fast, assuming they're always taking ten to never fail a check.

SiuiS
2011-02-14, 10:17 PM
They make awesome rogues for low-level mind games. One guy is talking, steps backwards into the shadows...

... And steps up onto a ledge above you, continuing his monologue of how you petty heroes are no match for the likes of him! <silenced sneak attack with mosquitoes bite from the shadows, guy on the ledge points finger, fighter takes full effect from sneak attack the round after he was hit> see, not even the weakest of my spells fails to pierce your armor!

Seriously y'all. Watch any movie with twins in it, to learn their dirty tricks.

Darrin
2011-02-14, 10:25 PM
I was able to track down Talon Dunning, the original designer, and exchanged some email (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32) about how he thought they should work in 3.x. (We don't necessarily agree... he seems to think the 1/2 HP thing makes them unplayable, while I consider it more of an annoyance I can work around).

Based on the text in the Dragon Compendium, I think we can establish by RAW that each dvati twin gets its own set of actions:

"These two creatures move and act separately but have a number of restrictions based on their connection."

In particular, the spellcasting restrictions are pretty explicit that each twin has a different set of actions:

"When a dvati casts a spell, both members of the pair must focus and concentrate on it. Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example. A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts."

In order for the bolded parts to work as stated, each twin would have to have a separate set of actions. Echo Attack also can't work as written unless each twin gets its own move action every round.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-14, 11:45 PM
They'll die to one fireball even if you spread them out 300 miles. Kill one, you ultimately kill the other.

This. Combined with the hp split, it's pretty rough. Even melee builds using solid hd classes end up uncomfortably fragile, IMO.

With a caster, this basically ends up being a caster with LA and a lack of hp, since there's no action advantage.


The echo attack ability is mostly worthless. It's highly situational(flanking with yourself on a monster than can hear you), is based on a skill only bards could reasonably have, allows a save, and even if it works...you only get a +1 attack OR ac. Frigging terrible.

Pair link or aid another is slightly better...but you still have the obvious problem of both going into melee close by each other with jack for hp.

If you try to build this into something useful, you need LA buyoff, a way to get lots of con and probably a feat to burn for improved toughness, and then you've just managed to be okish.

Thurbane
2011-02-15, 12:58 AM
Dragonborn Dvati Dragonfire Adept with the Slow trait?? :smalltongue:

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-15, 01:21 AM
They make incredible *insert anything except a caster here*.

Twice the actions, twice the AWESOME.

Aside from monk, CW Samurai, and Truenamer. Then you just suck twice as much.

Still, a Martial adept can use multiple maneuvers per round, any full-attacking class can get two full attacks, and you can just do some cool things with invocations, Binder abilities, etc.

Plus, twice the threatened area is always awesome.

Segev
2013-07-22, 11:30 AM
Since this is a thread on "how they work," I have a few specific questions. If possible, please answer according to their RAW, though additional clarifications are welcome afterwards.

If a dvati sorcerer casts Mage Armor and Shield, do both bodies benefit, or just the one? Similar question for any self-targeted spell cast by the dvati mage.
I will assume that psionics work similarly (e.g. a dvati psywarrior using Vigor and Claws of the Beast), but understand the RAW about it only being spellcasting makes this arguable. Still, clarification is welcome.
If a dvati is targeted by a cleric casting Cure Light Wounds, do both heal, or does just the body touched? Similar question for buff spells cast by others on the dvati.
It says, IIRC, that dvati must both take the same feats and same classes at the same levels (as well as learning the same spells, etc.). Is it phrased such that this is "one character" taking "one class," or as two distinct creatures both taking the same class(es) and feat(s)?
In particular, does a dvati druid get one or two animal companions? Does a wizard get one or two familiars? A pair of dvati taking psicrystal affinity get one or two psicrystals?
A paladin duo one or two mounts?
What about Leadership and other cohort-grangting feats?
Do dvati Kensai get a special sword each, or one between the two?
When a dvati duo has any sort of "share spells" ability with animal companion(s) or familiar(s) or psicrystal(s), does their duo-casting of one spell share it with both? (Obviously, if a single pair of dvati only get one animal companion between them, this is self-answered.)
This may be partially answered by the last question, or may help inform the answer to it: Are dvati one or two creatures?
If one creature, does that mean they have 4 hands and two heads? This would, for instance, qualify them for Multiattack. It would also have interesting implications for Fusion and Fission.
If two creatures, what does this open up to them?



I have two "thought problems" I want to tackle with them, and answers to the above will help.

1) Assuming the most restrictive ruling regarding their shared actions is accurate, what is the most effective things one can do with them?

I am running off the idea in this case that they're able to take Multiattack, which then opens up interesting possibilities with their self-flanking-buddy powers. Without that, the most that seems useful is their ability to threaten multiple squares. But perhaps, depending on how the share spells/powers cast by themselves or by others on them, other odd synnergistic tricks might open up.

2) I am contemplating attempting a fan writeup of a "fixed" version, but I make no promises at this time. Obviously, there are others better at optimization than I who could better balance such things, but knowing where they stand now (or at least, where questions are truly unanswered now) will help in building something functional.

Alex12
2013-07-22, 03:11 PM
They make incredible *insert anything except a caster here*.

Twice the actions, twice the AWESOME.

Aside from monk, CW Samurai, and Truenamer. Then you just suck twice as much.

Still, a Martial adept can use multiple maneuvers per round, any full-attacking class can get two full attacks, and you can just do some cool things with invocations, Binder abilities, etc.

Plus, twice the threatened area is always awesome.

This, absolutely this.
I'm currently playing a Dvati swordsage/crusader, and I'm reasonably confident I could take out the entire rest of the party if I had to. (I might have some trouble with the Goliath Crusader, and I'd have to take out the Dark-templated archer first to prevent him from using his 50-foot move speed to just get out of my range and snipe me, but other than that, I could do it)

They're terrible (or at least, no better than a half-elf) casters and casterlikes (psionics, invocations, binder vestiges, etc) but for melee or snipers, they're awesome.
They've always got a flanking buddy, who is actually better than normal flanking, which means they make great sneak attackers.
They can drop martial maneuvers like crazy, or have one refresh and the other get attacks off.
The Shadow Hand stance Island of Blades is stupidly fun, since it means you can, for example, flank with yourself and aid another with yourself simultaneously.
They've also got completely unbreakable telepathy, which has a variety of interesting uses.

Segev
2013-07-22, 04:17 PM
I thought their telepathy was actually rather limited, in range and in effect. I specifically recall this being one of those "wait, what?" moments I had when looking them over. Does anybody have the specific rules available?

Alex12
2013-07-22, 04:23 PM
I thought their telepathy was actually rather limited, in range and in effect. I specifically recall this being one of those "wait, what?" moments I had when looking them over. Does anybody have the specific rules available?

"The dvati twins have an innate, powerful psychic connection. They can communicate via telepathy at an unlimited range and across the planes. A twin cannot perceive what his other sees, hears, or otherwise perceives. As a full-round action, a dvati twin can determine his twin's current hit points and mental state. If one twin is on the same plane as the other, the twin learns the relative direction and distance to his partner."

Segev
2013-07-22, 04:40 PM
Thanks. Now I remember my issue with it.

"They can communicate telepathically at any distance, even across planes," is followed immediately by "they can only sense each other's mental state and current hit points, and THAT takes a full round action."

"Communicate telepathically" typically means something more akin to the Telepathy (Su) power or to Mindlink or Rary's Telepathic Bond. But the rules go on to spell out that that's not what it means at all.

In fact, it makes such a large divide between the two that they actually start to seem like separate characters, rather than one character with two bodies. Which, I think, only contributes to the enormous number of questions about them. *sigh*

Emmerask
2013-07-22, 05:35 PM
Hmmmm do they get separate spellbooks each if they become wizards?

That would mean that you could have one twin with pretty much ALL the none combat utility spells and the other with only the combat stuff.

If the party goes into a dungeon the utility twin just goes into a bag of holding (with air bottle) and sleeps or somesuch ^^

/edit also can the other twin sleep and regenerate spells while the other is active? (which would mean in a none alternate dimension with sped up time you can cast twice (or more) as long without going out of spells

Both these points would make them extremely powerful as caster in none high op games imo

/edit2 at least in the games I played a wizard there always where the moments of "I wish I memorized utility spell x today" with a utility twin no problem anymore if it actually works ^^

Alex12
2013-07-22, 06:00 PM
Thanks. Now I remember my issue with it.

"They can communicate telepathically at any distance, even across planes," is followed immediately by "they can only sense each other's mental state and current hit points, and THAT takes a full round action."

"Communicate telepathically" typically means something more akin to the Telepathy (Su) power or to Mindlink or Rary's Telepathic Bond. But the rules go on to spell out that that's not what it means at all.

In fact, it makes such a large divide between the two that they actually start to seem like separate characters, rather than one character with two bodies. Which, I think, only contributes to the enormous number of questions about them. *sigh*

Not exactly.
"A twin cannot perceive what his other sees, hears, or otherwise perceives. As a full-round action, a dvati twin can determine his twin's current hit points and mental state. If one twin is on the same plane as the other, the twin learns the relative direction and distance to his partner."
It's pretty clearly, at minimum, continuous "verbal" communication, with some mental spillover. Considering that mental effects explicitly carry through the link, I figured this was more relevant when one body was incapacitated through, say, being in negative hp totals, or petrified.


Hmmmm do they get separate spellbooks each if they become wizards?

That would mean that you could have one twin with pretty much ALL the none combat utility spells and the other with only the combat stuff.

If the party goes into a dungeon the utility twin just goes into a bag of holding (with air bottle) and sleeps or somesuch ^^

/edit also can the other twin sleep and regenerate spells while the other is active? (which would mean in a none alternate dimension with sped up time you can cast twice (or more) as long without going out of spells

Both these points would make them extremely powerful as caster in none high op games imo

/edit2 at least in the games I played a wizard there always where the moments of "I wish I memorized utility spell x today" with a utility twin no problem anymore if it actually works ^^

Doesn't work. They explicitly share resources like spells, bardic music uses, etc.

Segev
2013-07-22, 06:49 PM
Hm. Having finally gotten to the book, the "Aid Another" benefit they can expressly give to each other requires both to have separate Standard Actions. Therefore, at the very least, the RAW and the stated editor's RAI are in conflict.

It speaks of it thusly: "If a twin uses the Aid Another action to help his twin, he grants an additional +2 (for a total of +4) on attack rolls or to Armor Class."

...I suppose, technically, the "on attack rolls" could be read as accurate but pointless, since there are no attacks to be made (or, maybe, it applies to AoOs?), and the bonus to AC would still work, even if the one twin using Aid Another actually caused the other to not have any standard action at all.

Hm. Maybe a Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike/TWF flanker build which uses its standard to Aid Another would be feasible.

Still uncertain if they count as "one creature" enough for Multi-Weapon Attack to be valid.

Did get confirmation: Spells with a target of "You" affect them both simultaneously; touch spells, they have to use their "Spell Conductor" ability to transmit.

Given the highly limited nature of their (not-so-)powerful psychic connection, a psicrystal is actually a tremendous boon to the dvati. The owner of the psicrystal is Mindlinked to it as long as it's within a mile of them. This would thus keep the duo Mindlinked via it as long as both were within a mile of the psicrystal (giving up to 2 mile range, if they really want to push it to the max).

TuggyNE
2013-07-23, 12:03 AM
Thanks. Now I remember my issue with it.

"They can communicate telepathically at any distance, even across planes," is followed immediately by "they can only sense each other's mental state and current hit points, and THAT takes a full round action."

"Communicate telepathically" typically means something more akin to the Telepathy (Su) power or to Mindlink or Rary's Telepathic Bond. But the rules go on to spell out that that's not what it means at all.

What's so limited about this? It's strictly superior to telepathic bond, since it not only allows silent verbal communication, but also mental state and HP, and works across planes. The only thing it doesn't do is direct high-bandwidth sense-sharing. But since I'm not sure there's any effect in all of D&D (telepathic or otherwise) that does that, I don't think it matters much.

Segev
2013-07-23, 12:46 AM
If it requires a full-round action to "sense the other's mental state," then it can't possibly actually allow "verbal" communication across the bond. Assessing somebody's mental state by asking them how they're doing is as free an action as asking them how they're doing verbally, face-to-face.

While I think the 3.5 writer's claim that they only get one full round's worth of actions between them is kind-of dumb in the first place, if one accepts it as so anyway for the sake of argument, this gets even dumber. Now they can't even assess each other simultaneously, and, since they can't communicate across the planes except to do so, if they're separated, they can paralyze each other by trying to act, thus resulting in truly non-functional individuals.

I think the line that says they're "one mind in two bodies" is much, much better for building a usable and sensible character meant to be played by one player. Better, that is, than the version that we seem to have, wherein they're two different minds that share a soul, can talk telepathically (maybe, if they aren't limited to just spending a full round action to assess each others' mental states), and are forced to have the same class, feats, skills, spells known, and other such decisions.

Of course, this is me ranting, which isn't constructive.

I do wonder still: Animal Companions, Familiars, Psicrystals...do they get only one between them?

TuggyNE
2013-07-23, 01:35 AM
If it requires a full-round action to "sense the other's mental state," then it can't possibly actually allow "verbal" communication across the bond. Assessing somebody's mental state by asking them how they're doing is as free an action as asking them how they're doing verbally, face-to-face.

Oh? In a free action, can you tell the difference between panicked and cowering, between feebleminded and dazed, between confused and dominated?

No, you can't, because many of those mental states either prevent action by the affected individual entirely, or require a more significant action cost to evaluate. And many D&D mental effects are subtle enough the subject may not be aware of them at all.

Because of this, it's clear that mere verbal communication is not sufficient, and therefore that that is not all that is covered by the link.

Segev
2013-07-23, 08:04 AM
Hey, cool. One of their abilities is better than I thought it was. ^_^_v

Alex12
2013-07-23, 11:54 AM
I tend to assume that, since they're LA +1 with no attribute modifiers and nothing that makes them meaningfully better than humans (okay, so they have Darkvision, so what) aside from their Twins ability, which has a number of weaknesses, that that ability should be quite good.

Admittedly, we also houseruled that they get a penalty on their save against AoE mental effects that catch both of them in the area.

VariSami
2013-07-23, 06:31 PM
I used a pair (one?) of them as a NPC(s) in my Planescape campaign centered around the idea of identity. They were partied with a Synad (from Complete Psionic; 3 minds in one body) and a Warforged (of questionable but emerging personality). As a quirk, the Dvati was referred to as a "she", in singular and by two separate names (Sara and Zara is...) and the Synad in plural despite a "singular" but tripartite name (Zan-See-Ovr are...).

The Dvati were a Spellthief from Complete Arcane. As a DM, I had complete control to rule this without the players complaining but if one of the Dvati steals a spell, can the other cast it? For example, one of them is safely somewhere else and stealing utility spells from a friendly caster while the other is casting said utility spells on herself and other people.

Of course, they also benefited from being able to sneak attack with flanks, possibly stealing double the spells if necessary. But the coolest part seemed to be the one about one stealing and the other casting.

Segev
2013-07-24, 07:51 AM
Well, technically, by the RAW, they BOTH have to cast (or at least, the absent one has to do nothing while the other casts), so if a Spellthief can't steal-and-cast in one round normally, they can't do it as a Dvati, either. At which point, I have to ask, what's the benefit over just having the Dvati be the utility caster?


And then I at least half-answer my own question. Dvati Spellthief with high Charisma and Perform: Storytelling. Takes Leadership. One of the twins is out adventuring; the other has a gathering of the local wizards' guild's apprentices and Journeymen, to whom he's relating the adventures his other half is on while they're happening, and taking volunteers donating spells.

Effectively making all of their spellcasting followers' spells available without the usual risk of having umpteen 1st and 2nd level casters traveling in the mid-to-high-level party.

SiuiS
2013-07-24, 08:21 AM
Well, technically, by the RAW, they BOTH have to cast (or at least, the absent one has to do nothing while the other casts), so if a Spellthief can't steal-and-cast in one round normally, they can't do it as a Dvati, either. At which point, I have to ask, what's the benefit over just having the Dvati be the utility caster?


And then I at least half-answer my own question. Dvati Spellthief with high Charisma and Perform: Storytelling. Takes Leadership. One of the twins is out adventuring; the other has a gathering of the local wizards' guild's apprentices and Journeymen, to whom he's relating the adventures his other half is on while they're happening, and taking volunteers donating spells.

Effectively making all of their spellcasting followers' spells available without the usual risk of having umpteen 1st and 2nd level casters traveling in the mid-to-high-level party.

Bangerang!

Does this work with healing?

Segev
2013-07-24, 10:18 AM
Actually, with their "share spells" power, they wouldn't even need to "steal" it first. The cleric-follower casts the healing spell on the "homebody" and the dvati spends its move action to ship the spell effect to the "adventurer." (If you go with the ruling that they do, in fact, have only one move and one standard between them, this means the adventurer only has a standard action on any turn he's healed, but still!)

...though that opens the question: since it takes a move action to ship a spell effect over, but it doesn't say there's a limit, can they send multiple spells with one move action? That is, if a sorcerer casts Enlarge Person, a cleric casts Cure Light Wounds, and a wizard casts Bull's Strength, all at "home" and in the same round, can the homebody ship all three to the adventurer with one move action? Or can he only send one, and the other two are "wasted" by targeting him, after all?

Segev
2013-07-24, 10:19 AM
As a separate build thought...

If you're grappling, you don't NECESSARILY have to spend an action doing it. You could just resist passively letting the enemy out of the grapple on their turn, I think. This means, even with the "one action between them both" rule, you could possibly do some mean things with a grapple-focused dvati who then lets his not-participating-in-the-grapple self act upon the grappled victim.

Talya
2013-07-24, 10:28 AM
Woah, Necropost.

Alex12
2013-07-24, 05:27 PM
And then I at least half-answer my own question. Dvati Spellthief with high Charisma and Perform: Storytelling. Takes Leadership. One of the twins is out adventuring; the other has a gathering of the local wizards' guild's apprentices and Journeymen, to whom he's relating the adventures his other half is on while they're happening, and taking volunteers donating spells.

Effectively making all of their spellcasting followers' spells available without the usual risk of having umpteen 1st and 2nd level casters traveling in the mid-to-high-level party.
This idea is brilliant.
For that matter, even if they can't steal-and-cast on the same turn, they can have buckets of out-of-combat utility.


Actually, with their "share spells" power, they wouldn't even need to "steal" it first. The cleric-follower casts the healing spell on the "homebody" and the dvati spends its move action to ship the spell effect to the "adventurer." (If you go with the ruling that they do, in fact, have only one move and one standard between them, this means the adventurer only has a standard action on any turn he's healed, but still!)

...though that opens the question: since it takes a move action to ship a spell effect over, but it doesn't say there's a limit, can they send multiple spells with one move action? That is, if a sorcerer casts Enlarge Person, a cleric casts Cure Light Wounds, and a wizard casts Bull's Strength, all at "home" and in the same round, can the homebody ship all three to the adventurer with one move action? Or can he only send one, and the other two are "wasted" by targeting him, after all?
Neat idea, doesn't work. The spell has to be cast by the Dvati. Spells cast by others on one twin can't be shunted across.


As a separate build thought...

If you're grappling, you don't NECESSARILY have to spend an action doing it. You could just resist passively letting the enemy out of the grapple on their turn, I think. This means, even with the "one action between them both" rule, you could possibly do some mean things with a grapple-focused dvati who then lets his not-participating-in-the-grapple self act upon the grappled victim.

"A dvati character is actually two separate dvati twins who share a soul. These two creatures move and act separately but have a number of restrictions based on their connection."
Emphasis mine.
If you can manage the decreased HP (even with something as simple as having a high Con), you can do some really fun abuse of the action economy. The grapple thing might work if you've got a way to reliably not hit your other body.

Talya
2013-07-25, 06:59 AM
Emphasis mine.
If you can manage the decreased HP (even with something as simple as having a high Con), you can do some really fun abuse of the action economy. The grapple thing might work if you've got a way to reliably not hit your other body.

The fact that they share a single full round worth of actions between them on any given round makes action economy abuse problematic.

Alex12
2013-07-25, 07:10 AM
The fact that they share a single full round worth of actions between them on any given round makes action economy abuse problematic.

That's the dumb interpretation. No, seriously.
In fact, the description of spellcasting says that both twins have to make the actions. "Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example."

Besides, is "you have two bodies, but only one set of actions to share between them" really worth LA +1? Logically speaking? Because that's basically their only ability. I mean, they've got Darkvision 60 feet, but I feel comfortable in saying that's not worth anything like LA +1, especially considering each body is running on half the rolled HP.

Segev
2013-07-25, 07:17 AM
To be fair, even I don't actually think "they share one action between the two of them" that is supported by the RAW. I merely am operating from that assumption because it is the most restrictive ruling given. Thus, if a DM disagrees with my assumption, the build(s) all but certainly only get stronger.

There is RAW/RAI argument to be made over whether manifestation, (Sp), (Su) abilities, etc., should count as "casting spells" under the "can't both do separate ones" rule. It is undeniable that they get only one spellcasting action between them per round, and that when spellcasting, both use up their standard action to do so. It is also undeniable that the RAW do say they both move and act separately, as a general rule. The RAI-argument over manifestation, (Sp), (Su), etc. abilities stems from the fact that they are all "spell-like," which would seem to indicate that the balance concerns behind allowing multiple spells in one standard action would likewise apply. The murkiest of these sorts of things remains Maneuvers.

There is no way to make an RAI argument, let alone a RAW argument, over the fact that dvati get separate actions. As long as they're not "spell-like" in any legitimate way, they get to do an entire round's worth of actions with each body, and those actions need not even be the same thing.

However, yes, for my designs at the moment, I am using the completely non-canon and RAW-contradictory ruling that is nonetheless the most restrictive reading: they are one character with one full round of actions that happens to have two bodies, with which they may choose which body to use on any given action or part thereof. (The only thing they can double-up on is movement, and that's just so that the two can both move with the same move action.)

Segev
2013-07-25, 10:36 AM
Thinking about something from another thread - the Spellthief - and using a "stay at home" dvati twin to hang out with Leadership-granted Follower spellcasters that are kept entertained by tales of daring-do and the opportunity to donate spells to the effort...has led me to contemplate another thought: What would the impact of Sanctum Spell be?

If the Dvati stay-at-home twin is in the Sanctum, and they simulcast per the rules, does it count as "casting within the Sanctum?"