Why is the green haired elf angry at V?

[dshupp]

I feel like there's a great running gag here that I'm missing out on.

[MoonCat]

We don't know, it's been referenced to twice, but nobody knows why yet.

[doodthedud]

We do know his name though. It's Polozius, ambassador to the Elven lands.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html

[rewinn]

I feel like there's a great running gag here that I'm missing out on.

Purely speculating, but the last time V was seen in elven lands was as an immensely powerful necromancer. No-one there seems to know about the soulsplint; on the evidence, V has gone evil AND is now consorting with the evil ruler of the Empire of Blood (while suppressing the pointy teeth and generally evil appearance ... child's play for someone at V's apparent level.)

It can't help that V's associate Elan was present at the kidnapping of another ambassador, and far from defending her, actually defended his evil dad. Add to this the dreadful, dreadful "ELAN" sign and, frankly, it really looks like V may be working for Team Evil.

[Killed to Death]

Well, I had an idea that, er, It, was related to Inkyrius. Y'know, green hair and all that

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, I had an idea that, er, It, was related to Inkyrius. Y'know, green hair and all that
Cigar and all that.

[Leecros]

Purely speculating, but the last time V was seen in elven lands was as an immensely powerful necromancer. No-one there seems to know about the soulsplint; on the evidence, V has gone evil AND is now consorting with the evil ruler of the Empire of Blood (while suppressing the pointy teeth and generally evil appearance ... child's play for someone at V's apparent level.)

This is my take on it also.

[Dalek-K]

Ol' Green Hair is V's ex... V doesn't remember Polozius thus why that elf is glaring at V :)

Makes sense :p

Or it could really be V's master in disguise ..

[Mr. Snuggles]

Polozius the Elven Ambassador is angry because:

1) V genocided black dragons, and the world thinks that "the elves" did it instead of one singular elf. Thus P blames V for the bad reputation.

2) V accepted a Faustian Deal, and the elves aren't happy with one of their own consorting with demons.

3) V took the Azurites to Elven territory and told them to invade it. Once Elven territory, always Elven territory. Just because they've retreated doesn't mean it's not theirs any more. Xykon vacated his tower for 30 years and it was still his. When he returned, what's the first thing he did? He exterminated all of the inhabitants that moved in while he was gone.

4) More backstory...Polozius is V's wife's ex-husband or something (groan).

[1chapelcredit]

...or ex-sibling in law.

[Talvereaux]

Ol' Green Hair is V's ex... V doesn't remember Polozius thus why that elf is glaring at V :)

Makes sense :p

Or it could really be V's master in disguise ..

We don't know that V doesn't know who Polozius is or why they're glowering.

When Blackwing asked about it in #754, they dismissed it saying "now is not the time". V might have an idea what it's about, but they simply don't want to deal with it in the meantime.

[Bedinsis]

3) V took the Azurites to Elven territory and told them to invade it. Once Elven territory, always Elven territory. Just because they've retreated doesn't mean it's not theirs any more. Xykon vacated his tower for 30 years and it was still his. When he returned, what's the first thing he did? He exterminated all of the inhabitants that moved in while he was gone.


(expanding on this) This action meant that the elves no longer could ignore their off-continent ally, and were forced to send an elite team of warriors to foreign territory, leaving them in a weaker diplomatic position.

[factotum]

(expanding on this) This action meant that the elves no longer could ignore their off-continent ally, and were forced to send an elite team of warriors to foreign territory, leaving them in a weaker diplomatic position.

Hinjo implied that the Elves did that because of the new information about Xykon and Cloister provided by Haley--there was no indication it was because the Azurites had moved to that island. In fact, them having a semi-permanent home would give the elves MORE excuses to do nothing, because they don't have to worry about them running out of food or being slaughtered on their ships!

[Bedinsis]

Hinjo implied that the Elves did that because of the new information about Xykon and Cloister provided by Haley--there was no indication it was because the Azurites had moved to that island. In fact, them having a semi-permanent home would give the elves MORE excuses to do nothing, because they don't have to worry about them running out of food or being slaughtered on their ships!

Hinjo says what he believes, he could be incorrect of the elves' intentions.(though I admit I didn't remember that info when making that post)

With the Azurites settled on an island next to elven land they turn from "those pesky nomads on the the sea safe to ignore" to "allies living right next door, impossible to ignore".

[Swordpriest]

I don't know how the elf would know anything about any of those events. What's it been, a couple of days? :smallconfused:

[Themrys]

Ol' Green Hair is V's ex... V doesn't remember Polozius thus why that elf is glaring at V :)

Makes sense :p

No, I don't think so.
V is not the kind of person who would have a relationship with someone unimportant enough to forget them. S/he is head over heels in love with Inky, otherwise, s/he wouldn't ever have wasted valuable time on a relationship instead of studying magic.

My theory is that Polozius is an ex-sibling/parent/cousin in law of V and angry at V for having chosen evilness over a life with Inky. Or something like this.

@Swordpriest: Well, it could be a relative of Inky who is simply angry at V because s/he is never at home and Inky has to raise the children all alone.

[Mr. Snuggles]

I don't know how the elf would know anything about any of those events. What's it been, a couple of days? :smallconfused:
P is wearing spellcaster's robes. I'm sure a requirement to be a diplomat is to be able to cast Sending several times a day.

[Morquard]

I don't know how the elf would know anything about any of those events. What's it been, a couple of days? :smallconfused:

Since the incident in elven land:
They crossed the ocean from Azurite Island to Sandsedge. They passed through the desert to the fake gate location. They visited several cities, till the bounty hunters found them. Took the rest of the team another few days to get to the EoB. And I think its been mentioned they've been there for 4 days now.

So all in all, I'd say its more likely been a few weeks instead of a couple of days.

Also you can bet that in a world with magic ambassadors, in case they're not able to cast sending on their own have a couple of wizards/clerics in their employ who can do it for them, so they can stay in touch with homeland.

V showing up as ultra-powerful necromancer would constitute as important enough information to warn their ambassadors about to be on the lookout.
He teleported an entire fleet (I'm not sure its really known what he did to the black dragons - Inky might not have told that bit), granted it was the fleet of an ally not an enemy, but that is pretty powerful magic. Makes sense they want to know where he is and what he's up to and what side he's ultimately on.
Wouldn't be the first evil mage with a scheme where he first helps the "good guys" to crush them when they least expect it.

[LuPuWei]

V showing up as ultra-powerful necromancer would constitute as important enough information to warn their ambassadors about to be on the lookout.
He teleported an entire fleet (I'm not sure its really known what he did to the black dragons - Inky might not have told that bit), granted it was the fleet of an ally not an enemy, but that is pretty powerful magic. Makes sense they want to know where he is and what he's up to and what side he's ultimately on.


An I sense a disturbance in the Force moment might have occured as well. It would fit in well with OotSworld...

[Minitroll]

I have a feeling it has something to do with V's past and off screen work.

[KillianHawkeye]

I have a different theory:

The green-haired elf is trying to watch the show and is annoyed because Haley and V are talking so much. Have you ever tried to watch TV when people in the room are having a conversation? It's damn annoying! :smallmad:

[Dr.Epic]

Purely speculating, but the last time V was seen in elven lands was as an immensely powerful necromancer. No-one there seems to know about the soulsplint; on the evidence, V has gone evil AND is now consorting with the evil ruler of the Empire of Blood (while suppressing the pointy teeth and generally evil appearance ... child's play for someone at V's apparent level.)

It can't help that V's associate Elan was present at the kidnapping of another ambassador, and far from defending her, actually defended his evil dad. Add to this the dreadful, dreadful "ELAN" sign and, frankly, it really looks like V may be working for Team Evil.

I thought only V's mate and children saw him in elven lands. Besides, in one panel the elf was glaring at Elan and Tarquin and V was in panel.

[Forum Explorer]

I thought it was something from V's past. Apparently he blew something up in Orgin of PC's? Plus there was that part about meddeling in potential world destroying magics before. So I get the impression that V just isn't very popular at home.

[Faramir]

Well, I had an idea that, er, It, was related to Inkyrius. Y'know, green hair and all that

that was my guess. you behaved badly towards my sister/brother!

[JonestheSpy]

I kinda suspect it's simply because he disapproves an elf being an honored guest of such an evil bastard tyrant. Polozius has to be there, other elves don't.

[Caleniel]

I kinda suspect it's simply because he disapproves an elf being an honored guest of such an evil bastard tyrant. Polozius has to be there, other elves don't.

Agree with this. Polozius is there on a diplomatic mission, he has no sympathy for the empire, and he disapproves of finding an elven guest there.

It makes enough sense to make other more complicated theories entirely unnecessary at the moment, in my view. Not that that ever stopped anyone! :smallamused:

[rakkoon]

Or a former lover?

[LuPuWei]

Heck, for all we know its V's dad. Elves don't seem to age very much (or at least show too many visible signs) and they'd fit in well with the stuffy victorian age "I have no son" sentiment it would take to explain them not talking, only glaring.

And, well, they are in the fatherland. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html) It makes sense!

[Themrys]

Heck, for all we know its V's dad. Elves don't seem to age very much (or at least show too many visible signs) and they'd fit in well with the stuffy victorian age "I have no son" sentiment it would take to explain them not talking, only glaring.

And, well, they are in the fatherland. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html) It makes sense!

Yeah, but it would be a bit lame. That joke is getting old. I say it is Inkys dad.

[Herald Alberich]

Heck, for all we know its V's dad. Elves don't seem to age very much (or at least show too many visible signs) and they'd fit in well with the stuffy victorian age "I have no son" sentiment it would take to explain them not talking, only glaring.

And, well, they are in the fatherland. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html) It makes sense!

According to Origin, V's parents are rangers. Polozius doesn't look much like a ranger to me.

[LuPuWei]

Yeah, but it would be a bit lame. That joke is getting old. I say it is Inkys dad.

I agree, its just that I think V popping up in the Western continent to randomly find one of his in-laws is at least as outlandish as randomly finding one of his own relatives. Hence the post (which was more of a joke anyway)


According to Origin, V's parents are rangers. Polozius doesn't look much like a ranger to me.

I haven't read OoPCs- do we have picutres of his/her folks? Then we might end this particular epileptic tree :smalltongue:

[Nimrod's Son]

I haven't read OoPCs- do we have picutres of his/her folks? Then we might end this particular epileptic tree :smalltongue:
No. All it says is that V was "born to ranger parents".

(Not that a picture would do much in that regard anyway; there are people who think Xykon in SoD looks like he's part of Elan's family, for crying out loud...)

[Themrys]

I agree, its just that I think V popping up in the Western continent to randomly find one of his in-laws is at least as outlandish as randomly finding one of his own relatives. Hence the post (which was more of a joke anyway)

Both is very improbable, but an in-law would be something new after two fathers, and Polozius has green hair, although of a slightly darker colour than Inkyrius, AND s/he seems to recognize Vaarsuvius.
Even if Inky told every elf in Ivyleaf what V has done, they would still not know what this evil elven mage looks like.

Of course Polozius could just be some random elf who is angry at V for being the guest of an evil dictator, but where would be the fun in that theory?

[rewinn]

I thought only V's mate and children saw him in elven lands. Besides, in one panel the elf was glaring at Elan and Tarquin and V was in panel.

Doesn't it seem likely that Inky told someone about the epic-level necro that defeated the ancient black dragon that destroyed their house?

Surely at least their homeowner's insurance adjuster would have asked.

[Coidzor]

Even if Inky told every elf in Ivyleaf what V has done, they would still not know what this evil elven mage looks like.

I imagine that Inky had some idea of who V's master is and channels to go through to contact the wizard. V's actions certainly seem like the sort of thing that would get forwarded on.

The Order is supposed to be fairly up there-ish in terms of adventuring groups, and V's master is still more powerful than V is, so he's likely in the upper teens and as a result seems likely to be a fairly prominent elf. And when someone prominent starts to put their feelers out and ask people to keep an eye out for someone and they have the ability to produce perfect likenesses from memory/divination...

It can definitely get to the right people and diplomats are people who have it as part of their business to be aware of things and have people they liaise with that also have it as their business to not only know things but know things that others don't necessarily want known, especially when they have their society set up so they can send a wizard as an agent of the court to serve someone their divorce papers.

[Deliverance]

According to Origin, V's parents are rangers. Polozius doesn't look much like a ranger to me.
Given that we have only seen Polozius in formal occasions representing his country as an ambassador, I don't think we can conclude anything about his class from what he is wearing. Ambassadors tend to wear their formal national dress when on representative duties.

[Deliverance]

The Order is supposed to be fairly up there-ish in terms of adventuring groups, and V's master is still more powerful than V is, so he's likely in the upper teens and as a result seems likely to be a fairly prominent elf.
Strictly speaking, we don't know that V's master is more powerful than he is or that he is a fairly prominent elf.

We do know that V thinks of his master as incredibly powerful, but idolizing your master or seeing him as better, stronger, or more knowledable than he is is is quite normal for a pupil. We also know that the three fiends played on V's perception of his master's strength in the alternative plan, but that doesn't prove that his master is that powerful either.

He may very well be: it is possible that V's beliefs about his master are nothing but the truth - but we don't know that it is the case.

[G-Man Graves]

I feel that it's worth noting that V may have some idea as to why the elf is mad at him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html) This would imply that it is for some past grievance, and NOT the elves getting mad at him for his evil actions. After all, he hasn't been home since then, so he wouldn't know that they were angry.

[Gnoman]

OR that he knows it isn't a personal grudge, is almost certainly due to the Darth V incident, and does not want to discuss that with the party.

[factotum]

OR that he knows it isn't a personal grudge, is almost certainly due to the Darth V incident, and does not want to discuss that with the party.

It was Blackwing who noticed the elf was glaring at him, and Blackwing already knows all about the Darth V stuff--he was there for some of it!

[Themrys]

It was Blackwing who noticed the elf was glaring at him, and Blackwing already knows all about the Darth V stuff--he was there for some of it!

Yes, but V had just joined the party when Blackwing mentioned it.

I am sure it is somehow connected to the Darth V incident. Either in the obvious way (because of the evilness in general), or Polozius is a relative of Inkyrius and is angry at V because of how s/he treated Inky.

[Hironomus]

Clearly The green haired elf was just irritated at V for talking while he/she was trying to enjoy the opening show.
Gosh why are you people overthinking this so much?

:smallwink:

[Dadi]

First of all, yey - first post ^^

Secondly - I think you're all massively over-thinking it :smallredface: In my opinion Blackwing's simply being a bit of an arse, trying to remind V of what an idiot he was to take up the fiends' deal and act the way he did. Hence V's annoyed facial expression and saying "now's not the time", as if trying to silence the crow, because they've got more important things to do, than squabble over what a mistake V made :smallwink:

Though it would be pretty awesome if there was some other plot-line involved, concerning the elves and their opinion of V. Though I'm not sure he'd really be viewed as someone evil, just because he saved his family from an attack by a black dragon. And single-handedly wiped out a quarter of the black dragon population. I mean, weren't black dragons evil anyway? :smallbiggrin:

[slayerx]

Secondly - I think you're all massively over-thinking it :smallredface: In my opinion Blackwing's simply being a bit of an arse, trying to remind V of what an idiot he was to take up the fiends' deal and act the way he did. Hence V's annoyed facial expression and saying "now's not the time", as if trying to silence the crow, because they've got more important things to do, than squabble over what a mistake V made :smallwink:

first welcome

second, doubtful... as we've seen in a recent strip the green haired elf was clearly glaring in V's direction... furtharmore we can note that in all other appearances of the elf we do not see him with that same anger glare. Only time we get this is when V's around and in V's direction... so ya pretty clear he's glaring at V

[AsteriskAmp]

V seated away from the elf, and let a cat be put in the middle, a mascot among people who in theory hold high-ranks. To me it seems he wanted to talk to a fellow elf but felt insulted by V's positioning and also it's constant interruption to the ceremony.

[Dalek-K]

Some facts...

1. V knows why this person is glaring but isn't bringing it up
Blackwing however doesn't know who this person is

2.P is being reserved and is just glaring

3. It has been a day or so since P first saw V and no one has shown up to pimp slap V

So I think it is something to do with V's past before he became a pupil wizard that might or might now know about the darth v incident. P is mad because of something that happened that is not part of the plot nor will be ... But may be comic relief as in

:vaarsuvius: Oh that is just someone I beat in "most uses of cantrip spell" competition ...

Or maybe the day that they were giving out familiars V got blackwing (cool talking bird) and P got a toad?

[Kish]

Blackwing is a raven, not a crow.

[G-Man Graves]

OR that he knows it isn't a personal grudge, is almost certainly due to the Darth V incident, and does not want to discuss that with the party.

That seems like more of a stretch. The way V responded implies that he knows exactly why the elf was angry, while Blackwing wouldn't know. And Blackwing know's all about Darth V's wacky adventures.

[Dalek-K]

A raven is in the Crow family of birds (with magpies and bluejays)

Well shouldn't Blackwing assume that it is due to the darth v incident?

[zimmerwald1915]

It was Blackwing who noticed the elf was glaring at him, and Blackwing already knows all about the Darth V stuff--he was there for some of it!
New theory: Polozius is actually mad at Blackwing. Whenever P's been glaring in V's direction, Blackwing's always been between V and P. :smallsigh:

[Dalek-K]

Ah when giving out familiars Blackwing decided to go with V instead of P and Blackwing doesn't even remember P because V is so awesome :D (well when they were getting familiars... )

[1chapelcredit]

It was Blackwing who noticed the elf was glaring at him, and Blackwing already knows all about the Darth V stuff--he was there for some of it!

You mean... uh... all of it, right?

...

[Themrys]

Blackwing is a raven, not a crow.

Someone who is used to the real world's birds can easily mistake Blackwing for a crow...since there are no birds that are called "raven" and have yellow feet and beak.

OotS-world has other language conventions than the real world, it seems. :smallbiggrin:

[Gnoman]

That seems like more of a stretch. The way V responded implies that he knows exactly why the elf was angry, while Blackwing wouldn't know. And Blackwing know's all about Darth V's wacky adventures.

Think. V may have been able to explain it to blackwing without the party overhearing. It may not have, however, and it did not want to risk the lengthy and humiliating explanations in that case. Note that BW does not bring it up again. I suspect V filled him in once it was comfortably certain that the party was out of earshot.

[G-Man Graves]

Think. V may have been able to explain it to blackwing without the party overhearing. It may not have, however, and it did not want to risk the lengthy and humiliating explanations in that case. Note that BW does not bring it up again. I suspect V filled him in once it was comfortably certain that the party was out of earshot.

Right. Which makes it more likely that it DOESN'T have to do with the little thing with the super evil magic.

[Gnoman]

Not really. BW would, logically know about Darth V. He is, however, much less likely to understand the ramifications of those events in a complex Elven society, or how significant the elf in question may be. That, and not the Darth V events, is what I was referring to V filling BW in.

[Iuris]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the ambassador might simply be annoyed because the two lovebirds keep talking at a formal occasion, disrupting things? You know, a simple breach of decorum?

Plus, the ambassador seems to be generally in a bad mood, which might have something to do with the fact that he's been posted to the court of a tyrant, possibly not a particularly comfortable posting with bad prospects for the future?

[Themrys]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the ambassador might simply be annoyed because the two lovebirds keep talking at a formal occasion, disrupting things? You know, a simple breach of decorum?

Polozius has glared at V before, at least Blackwing said so.
And since this is a comic, not real life, there must be more behind it than bad mood in general.

[Dalek-K]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the ambassador might simply be annoyed because the two lovebirds keep talking at a formal occasion, disrupting things? You know, a simple breach of decorum?

Plus, the ambassador seems to be generally in a bad mood, which might have something to do with the fact that he's been posted to the court of a tyrant, possibly not a particularly comfortable posting with bad prospects for the future?

Hey hey hey now... Don't be bringing logic to a forum debate!

:D

[Nimrod's Son]

Hey hey hey now... Don't be bringing logic to a forum debate!

:D
He wasn't. We already know there's more to it than that from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html).

[Supercomputers]

Wait, why would the elves be angry at Darth V killing all the black dragons? I mean they're colour coded for our convenience. Do they fear retribution?

[LuPuWei]

Wait, why would the elves be angry at Darth V killing all the black dragons? I mean they're colour coded for our convenience. Do they fear retribution?

That's true. They have no qualms killing Goblins. Why should Black Dragons be any more special?

[Kish]

Because it was a horrifically evil thing to do and most elves aren't evil, Vaarsuvius and Team Peregrine aside?

[BaronOfHell]

With a certain after life, the morality of beings in such a world, I imagine, is very different.

It's not about the value of the single life, but the value of what life, i.e. the existance on the given place, has to offer.

As such, it's an incredible depration of richness in the world, when you eliminate a huge amount of interesting beings.

Goblins come and go, they produce like crazy, the world won't look much different tomorrow.

Removing 25% of all black dragons however is like in a manager game where the total amount of players are set and limited, that you remove 25% of the best possible players. Do you have idea of how much less interesting that game would get?

[Themrys]

Because it was a horrifically evil thing to do and most elves aren't evil, Vaarsuvius and Team Peregrine aside?

How do you know most elves don't think it's okay to kill "evil" creatures no matter what? Is that in the rulebooks of D&D?
I didn't have the impression that Team Peregrine were an exception to the rule. They just didn't view Goblins as people. This is quite common with colour-coded enemies.


The "horrifically evil" thing V has done in the opinion of elves is much more probably the deal with evil forces and possibly the necromantic spell used to revive the dragon's head, than the quarter-genocide...especially since Inky had other things to do than to listen what V says to the dragon, so they don't even know about that.
(They could figure it out when they hear of all the suddenly dead black dragons, but this will take some time)

[Scarlet Knight]

Plus, the ambassador seems to be generally in a bad mood, which might have something to do with the fact that he's been posted to the court of a tyrant, possibly not a particularly comfortable posting with bad prospects for the future?

Plus , the Empire food gives him heartburn. Which explains Durkon's spell reseach "Durkon's Dispepsia Dismissal".

[Themrys]

I have a new theory, again based solely on Polozius' hair colour:

The green-haired one of V's adopted children is Polozius' lovechild with one of Tarquin's slaves. S/he gave it away because the child would have been a slave in the EoB.
Now Polozius thinks V makes a holiday trip to the Empire of Blood and has brought the innocent child back to this cruel place. That's why s/he is glaring at V. :smallwink:

[Kish]

How do you know most elves don't think it's okay to kill "evil" creatures no matter what? Is that in the rulebooks of D&D?

Yes. Specifically, the parts where judging entire races that was is described as a Lawful Evil qualify and elves are described as "usually Chaotic Good."

Rich may well have darker-than-standard elves, but regardless, "why would these PEOPLE object to someone committing a Xykon-level atrocity?" is a question that makes no sense. It does not start making sense if the people in question are elves and the atrocity in question is the murder of dozens of random black dragons.

[Themrys]

Rich may well have darker-than-standard elves, but regardless, "why would these PEOPLE object to someone committing a Xykon-level atrocity?" is a question that makes no sense. It does not start making sense if the people in question are elves and the atrocity in question is the murder of dozens of random black dragons.

Well...is killing always evil creatures without asking questions beforehand evil in D&D?

I guess some elves would object, but I don't think Team Peregrine are the only ones who think it's completely okay to kill enemies that have surrendered if said enemies belong to an always evil race. Those guys have to have grown up somewhere.

What is the difference between killing a colour coded, always-evil creature without trying to find out whether it is an exception to the rule, and doing the same with a quarter of the black dragon population? If an adventurer only kills dragons for a living, this could have the same effect.
If it was complete genocide, it could be different, but since it isn't...

And the dragons didn't even surrender. (Okay, they had no chance to, but they probably wouldn't have anyway, since they live alone and obviously always think they are more powerful than the adventurers who fight against them)

However, the whole discussion is pointless, since there is no proof that the elves even know V has killed more than one black dragon.

[Swordpriest]

However, the whole discussion is pointless, since there is no proof that the elves even know V has killed more than one black dragon.

Exactly. Could a crucified baker remember enough details of what happened in the nightmare combat in front of him to figure out that a unique epic-level spell had been cast, much less figure out exactly what that spell did completely out of sight and hearing of said baker? :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Well...is killing always evil creatures without asking questions beforehand evil in D&D?

I just answered this question, why are you asking it again with very slightly different words? My answer isn't going to change, and neither is the D&D books'. Judging entire races is Lawful Evil in D&D--even if you don't use that judgment to kill them. If you do, that makes it worse than most other ways of treating them worse (or better!) because of their race.

[brionl]

Even if it wasn't "Evil", killing off a whole huge wad of dragons is a bad idea because it really pissed off Tiamat. I imagine the spouses/mates of all those dead black dragons are fairly annoyed as well. If the remaining black and other chromatic dragons decide to declare open season on all Elves because of the actions of Vaarsuvius, there would be dire consequences.

"Dragons, color coded for your convenience."
"Elves, crunchy and go well with ketchup."

[LuPuWei]

The "horrifically evil" thing V has done in the opinion of elves is much more probably the deal with evil forces and possibly the necromantic spell used to revive the dragon's head, than the quarter-genocide...


I agree here. Suppose the Mama Dragon (we don't even know their names!) had never found V and the whole Darth V arc had never occured. Would Polozius still be glaring at V? The baby dragon would still have been dead, but I don't remember anyone saying V had gone Evil at that point, even though he'd just murdered a juvenile. Does the scale of the crime really make a difference? Would a serial killer be less reviled than a mass murderer?


Judging entire races is Lawful Evil in D&D--even if you don't use that judgment to kill them. If you do, that makes it worse than most other ways of treating them worse (or better!) because of their race.

Well we already see (I assume; I haven't read SoD yet, only spoilers from other posters) the Gods judge the entire Goblin race as Evil, or at least unworthy of equal treatment. And yet at least half of the Gods are supposed to be the definition of Good. I'm not sure (once again) how strictly OotSworld follows D&D guidelines.

[Kish]

And yet at least half of the Gods are supposed to be the definition of Good.

Wherever are you getting that idea?

[LuPuWei]

Wherever are you getting that idea?

Well if a Celestial in OotSworld can claim to be a being of pure Law and Good, I don't see how a God should not be able to make that claim. Being Creators, I'd assume they'd have a say in how Good is defined. Of course if it is explicitly stated elsewhere that they are not, then that's another matter.

Good and Evil are almost always very relative terms, and its up to the OotSverse to define them by its own standards- let's not get caught up in what one of us may or may not call Good, but what the 'Verse seems to say on that matter.

[Kish]

Well if a Celestial in OotSworld can claim to be a being of pure Law and Good, I don't see how a God should not be able to make that claim. Being Creators, I'd assume they'd have a say in how Good is defined.

That makes no sense. Why would any of them be defined as Evil then?

In any case, you made a very specific claim: "At least half of them are supposed to be the definition of Good." As far as I can tell, you got that from nowhere, even ignoring the rather bizarre assumption that gods' alignments are massively unevenly split, with at least 50% being Something Good. You sure didn't get it from Rich Burlew, and that means you're using something for which there is no evidence as evidence for something else.


but what the 'Verse seems to say on that matter.

If you think the OotS universe treats gods as the definition of Good, I have no clue where you got that either.

[LuPuWei]

As far as I can tell, you got that from nowhere, even ignoring the rather bizarre assumption that gods' alignments are massively unevenly split, with at least 50% being Something Good. You sure didn't get it from Rich Burlew, and that means you're using something for which there is no evidence as evidence for something else.


That's actually true. I make this stuff up to make myself sound better in an arguement. It would be really nice if you could actually tell me what you think is the case and give me some logical arguements in defense of that- instead of just trying to pick holes in everything I say and then not actually saying anything yourself.

Long live the Revolution!

[Innis Cabal]

That's actually true. I make this stuff up to make myself sound better in an arguement. It would be really nice if you could actually tell me what you think is the case and give me some logical arguements in defense of that- instead of just trying to pick holes in everything I say and then not actually saying anything yourself.

Long live the Revolution!

That's not how an argument works unfortunately. You are the one suggesting something, it is -your- position to defend your statements, not the one's that are acting in a position of disbelief to refute you.

Also, making stuff up in an argument out of nothing isn't really getting you to where you want to go. It's actually the perfect position to get you ignored out of hand. Making things up to "Make you sound better in an argument" has the exact -opposite- effect that you desire.

[Narren]

Also, making stuff up in an argument out of nothing isn't really getting you to where you want to go. It's actually the perfect position to get you ignored out of hand. Making things up to "Make you sound better in an argument" has the exact -opposite- effect that you desire.

It was actually quite distracting from what I thought was a good point about the good gods (regardless of how many there are) views on other races.

[LuPuWei]

That's not how an argument works unfortunately. You are the one suggesting something, it is -your- position to defend your statements, not the one's that are acting in a position of disbelief to refute you.

Also, making stuff up in an argument out of nothing isn't really getting you to where you want to go. It's actually the perfect position to get you ignored out of hand. Making things up to "Make you sound better in an argument" has the exact -opposite- effect that you desire.

All right, let me answer these:

Don't take things I say so literally. English is a wonderful language, leaving its users with many ways to express themselves, I come from a different world than most of you, so forgive me if I speak a little differently. I for my part will do My best to understand you as well.

First things first:



Also, making stuff up in an argument out of nothing isn't really getting you to where you want to go. It's actually the perfect position to get you ignored out of hand. Making things up to "Make you sound better in an argument" has the exact -opposite- effect that you desire.

That was sarcasm. In fact, the statement I had made that Kish seemed to have trouble with was based on the assumption that roughly half the Gods in the OotSverse would be Good and half would be Evil. Again, Kish interpretted my words much too literally on two accounts at least.

a) I was talking about power distribution more than the actual number of Good Gods versus Evil. It seems to me that for Either to exist in a given universe where they are clearely opposed, their powers must be pretty evenly balanced. So let me say that 50% of the Deific power in the OotSverse is probably Good, perhaps a bit more.

b) The spirit of my arguement had more to do with the relationshipship of Gods with Alignments than with the actual facts regarding power or alignment distribution in Oots, D&D or elsewhere. I'm not happy that Kish chose to pick up on the semantics of one statement I made instead of addressing the point I had actually raised. Again, I have no delusions as to my ability to read anyone's mind (least of all Richard Burlew) and I suppose I should have included the disclaimer "All opinions expressed in my posts are my own and should not be taken to be assertions as to what the owner of this comic or indeed any other comic believe".

But I have not explained my resons for being sarcastic in the first place. It is true that if I make a statement its is my responsibility to defend it. But against what?


That makes no sense. Why would any of them be defined as Evil then?

In any case, you made a very specific claim: "At least half of them are supposed to be the definition of Good." As far as I can tell, you got that from nowhere, even ignoring the rather bizarre assumption that gods' alignments are massively unevenly split, with at least 50% being Something Good. You sure didn't get it from Rich Burlew, and that means you're using something for which there is no evidence as evidence for something else.

If you think the OotS universe treats gods as the definition of Good, I have no clue where you got that either.

Is not really an arguement or a question. It is an empty statement followed by what are at best a series of claims that are at best baseless accusations. I really don't get what his point is here.

This is not a classroom where I have an obligation to make him understand. If he has a valid question I can answer it, but he's got to ask it then.

However, I did take the trouble to go back and read some of Kish's earlier posts, and I suppose I missed the spirit of his arguement as well, so I'll address them now:

Kish's point seems to be (again, I apologise beforehand if I've misunderstood) that regardless of anything else, in D&D V's act of Familicide would be regarded as Evil, as it is an attack on an entire race of beings, in which case their general alignment isn't even in question. He also tells us that in D&D elves are usually chaotic good, so even though there may be some exceptions, in general the Elf community would take exception to V's act of Familicide, hence giving us a plausible reason for why the Green haired elf would glare at V.

My point was this: How stongly do the rules of alignment apply to Deities in D&D. Thor is Lawful Good (its been stated somewhere in the comic- I'll find it if you really want the reference) however some of his acts seem decidedly chaotic. So at least in OotSverse it seems, stated alignment does not set a God's behaviour in stone. Is this the same in D&D? Are Gods allowed to act outside their alignment? If so, then no arguement. Ok, Gods are exempt, but elves are not and till we see evidence to the contrary, there's no need to assume that OotS has alignment rules any different from D&D.

However, if that's not the case, I really would go so far as to say that aside from using D&D as a basis, Rich pretty much writes the story and the 'verse according to his own rules. In other words, if the alignment rules for Gods in D&D are not the same as those in OotS, then there's no reason to assume that they are the same for Elves and subsequently that Elves in OotS are necessarily Good by D&D standards.

[Warren Dew]

Well we already see (I assume; I haven't read SoD yet, only spoilers from other posters) the Gods judge the entire Goblin race as Evil, or at least unworthy of equal treatment. And yet at least half of the Gods are supposed to be the definition of Good. I'm not sure (once again) how strictly OotSworld follows D&D guidelines.

I think the gods judge the goblin race as unworthy of equal treament, but not necessarily as being evil by reasons of race, as Kish describes.
That said, Kish is mistaken about the familicide qualifying as "judging an entire race" - Vaarsuvius didn't make any judgement on the black dragons that weren't killed. The purpose was to kill an extended family, not a race.

[Kish]

All right, let me answer these:

Don't take things I say so literally. English is a wonderful language, leaving its users with many ways to express themselves, I come from a different world than most of you, so forgive me if I speak a little differently. I for my part will do My best to understand you as well.

First things first:



That was sarcasm. In fact, the statement I had made that Kish seemed to have trouble with was based on the assumption that roughly half the Gods in the OotSverse would be Good and half would be Evil. Again, Kish interpretted my words much too literally on two accounts at least.

a) I was talking about power distribution more than the actual number of Good Gods versus Evil. It seems to me that for Either to exist in a given universe where they are clearely opposed, their powers must be pretty evenly balanced. So let me say that 50% of the Deific power in the OotSverse is probably Good, perhaps a bit more.

What does that even mean? "Deific power"?

It's not meaningless that you're ignoring the presence of Neutral gods. You are, apparently, setting up a Manichean conflict between good and evil and assuming it defines all gods in every D&D setting everywhere. Be as sarcastic as you like, but you still started with a bizarre, inexplicable premise--"at least half of the gods are defined as pure good"--and have been going bizarre, inexplicable places with it. When I see a point, I'll address it. As long as I'm only seeing "where on earth did you get that?" assumptions, I'll point that out.


Thor is Lawful Good (its been stated somewhere in the comic- I'll find it if you really want the reference)

Yeah, do that. It should keep you busy for a while, since it hasn't been stated anywhere.

however some of his acts seem decidedly chaotic. So at least in OotSverse it seems, stated alignment does not set a God's behaviour in stone. Is this the same in D&D? Are Gods allowed to act outside their alignment?

That question only makes sense if you start with an unstated, assumed premise that you're not acknowledging as an assumption. To whit, everything you're posted since "at least half of the gods are supposed to be the definition of Good" hinges on your Manichean concept. But that's not what the gods are in any D&D setting. Dragonlance comes the closest (it doesn't come very close, because it still has Neutral gods). Of course Kord (God of Strength, incidentally Chaotic Good) is "allowed" to do things that don't fit with him being the embodiment of Good--he's the embodiment of Strength, not of his alignment. There is not a syllable of support anywhere in the OotS comic or in Rich's words for the gods of OotS being embodiments of their alignments.

[LuPuWei]

What does that even mean? "Deific power"?

Power pertaining to Deities.



It's not meaningless that you're ignoring the presence of Neutral gods.


Ok. There are Neutral Gods. So 33% of the Gods in OotS are Good. That affects my arguement how?



You are, apparently, setting up a Manichean conflict between good and evil and assuming it defines all gods in every D&D setting everywhere.


What does Manichaen mean? And explain to me how my statements have been interpretted to have anything to do with all the Gods in every D&D setting everywhere.


Be as sarcastic as you like,


I'd rather not. You seem to have trouble digesting it.


but you still started with a bizarre, inexplicable premise--"at least half of the gods are defined as pure good"--


It is not bizarre and inexplicable to me. I have yet to read a story or myth with a Neutral God in it, personally. So excuse me if I don't naturally see things the way you do from the outset.


and have been going bizarre, inexplicable places with it.

There's a bit in the forum rules about classifying a fellow poster's statements as nonsensical.


When I see a point, I'll address it. As long as I'm only seeing "where on earth did you get that?" assumptions, I'll point that out.

The point is whether or not Elves in OotS should be bound by their alignment definitions as set in D&D or whether the Giant allows for a degree of freedom in how he treats his races. In simpler terms, whether Elves in OotS could be Evil (as defined in D&D) regardless of their classification as Chaotic Evil (in D&D)

If the relationship between Gods and their stated alignments in OotS varies from how it is in D&D then there is precedent for us to say that alignment of Elves as a race in OotS is not bound by their alignment as a race in D&D.



Yeah, do that. It should keep you busy for a while, since it hasn't been stated anywhere.

Thor is a Lawful Good God. He may not be the embodiment of it, but that's his alignment. I will find you the comic.


That question only makes sense if you start with an unstated, assumed premise that you're not acknowledging as an assumption. To whit, everything you're posted since "at least half of the gods are supposed to be the definition of Good" hinges on your Manichean concept.

What is that assumption? Perhaps once I know what Manichaen means I will understand what you are trying to say.


But that's not what the gods are in any D&D setting. Dragonlance comes the closest (it doesn't come very close, because it still has Neutral gods). Of course Kord (God of Strength, incidentally Chaotic Good) is "allowed" to do things that don't fit with him being the embodiment of Good--he's the embodiment of Strength, not of his alignment.

I have never played D&D, I do not understand any of these references.


There is not a syllable of support anywhere in the OotS comic or in Rich's words for the gods of OotS being embodiments of their alignments.

I agree. But in simple words tell me whether that is normal for a Deity in a D&D setting.

[G-Man Graves]

Thor is a Lawful Good God. He may not be the embodiment of it, but that's his alignment. I will find you the comic.

I'll just point out now that comics where Durkon is labeled as Lawful Good don't count. Now, while you're running your little errand, would you mind picking up some headlight fluid?

[Keejus]

The OotS outer cosmology is likely Planescape-based, Mount Celestia being the LG afterlife, and all. This would logically place Valhalla within Ysgard, which is both Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral.

Thor being Chaotic Good/Neutral, incidentally, far better explains his behavior than the notion that gods just pick an alignment off a list and then go do whatever

[Narren]

Ok. There are Neutral Gods. So 33% of the Gods in OotS are Good. That affects my arguement how?

Because there is absolutely no reason to assume that the gods are evenly distributed by alignment. Dragonlance is the only setting that I've seen maintain the balance of gods by alignment. There is no indication that I know of that OotS does this.


It is not bizarre and inexplicable to me. I have yet to read a story or myth with a Neutral God in it, personally. So excuse me if I don't naturally see things the way you do from the outset.

I've never seen a D&D setting (which is what the comic is based on) WITHOUT any neutral gods. And if you're talking generic stories, folklore, and myths, then they don't actually have an alignment. And if they did, I'd classify a TON of them as Chaotic Neutral.


Thor is a Lawful Good God. He may not be the embodiment of it, but that's his alignment. I will find you the comic.

I'd like to see that comic, because I have absolutely no recollection of that being stated in OotS. Durkon is confirmed as Lawful Good (I think), but I've read the comic through several times and don't recall ever seeing Thor's alignment. And for what it's worth, every D&D supplement that I've seen that has Thor's stats or description in it label him as Chaotic Good. Which is entirely in keeping with his depiction in OotS.


I have never played D&D, I do not understand any of these references

That may be the reason behind the communication breakdown.

[Kish]

I agree. But in simple words tell me whether that is normal for a Deity in a D&D setting.
The gods in D&D are generally embodiments of concepts. If there was such a thing as "the god of Good," that god would be the embodiment of Good...But there isn't, in any setting I know of. In Dragonlance, the good, evil, and neutral gods form three pantheons, each of whom has a head. So it might be argued--though I still wouldn't want to be the one arguing it--that Paladine is the embodiment of good, or that Takhisis is the embodiment of evil. Manichean means a worldview defined by a conflict between two sides, in which one is good and all on it are allies, and the other is evil and all on it are allies. Dragonlance is the only D&D setting that comes close to it. In every other setting, there are many loosely connected gods who are good, neutral, or evil depending on whether they're the gods of honor, war, or tyranny; evil gods generally think of everyone who doesn't serve them as the enemy, including other evil gods, and a neutral god of Fire and a neutral god of Ice may hate each other as much as any two gods of opposed alignments could.

In OotS, there is exactly one god we know what he's the god of: The god of goblins. He used to be a mortal and appears to be the god of goblins not because he's the embodiment of the concept of goblins, but because he comprises the entirety of the goblin pantheon.

[LuPuWei]

I'll just point out now that comics where Durkon is labeled as Lawful Good don't count.

The OotS outer cosmology is likely Planescape-based, Mount Celestia being the LG afterlife, and all. This would logically place Valhalla within Ysgard, which is both Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral.

Thor being Chaotic Good/Neutral, incidentally, far better explains his behavior than the notion that gods just pick an alignment off a list and then go do whatever

I'd like to see that comic, because I have absolutely no recollection of that being stated in OotS. Durkon is confirmed as Lawful Good (I think), but I've read the comic through several times and don't recall ever seeing Thor's alignment. And for what it's worth, every D&D supplement that I've seen that has Thor's stats or description in it label him as Chaotic Good. Which is entirely in keeping with his depiction in OotS.

Ok. I'm probably mistaken then. Perhaps a combination of Durkon's statements and random posts from other threads. Sorry. However, I think we can agree that Thor is definitely Good aligned.



Now, while you're running your little errand, would you mind picking up some headlight fluid?

Pardon?


Because there is absolutely no reason to assume that the gods are evenly distributed by alignment. Dragonlance is the only setting that I've seen maintain the balance of gods by alignment. There is no indication that I know of that OotS does this.

True. But number is really not the point. We know for sure that one God exists that is Good aligned. This God is Thor. Kish said that deeming an entire race as unworthy of existance is an indication of an Evil alignment. My point was even if there was one Good aligned God, did he stand against the decision to deny Goblins and their leader and equal status in the OotSverse? If he did not, or indeed if he supported this decision, then it looks to me like a Good aligned character comitting an act defined as Evil by the D&D rules. Which means that just because elves are defined as Good aligned creatures, in the OotSverse, they may not view an act as evil even if it is defined as Evil in D&D.

That may be the reason behind the communication breakdown.

Indeed it may.


The gods in D&D are generally embodiments of concepts. If there was such a thing as "the god of Good," that god would be the embodiment of Good...But there isn't, in any setting I know of. In Dragonlance, the good, evil, and neutral gods form three pantheons, each of whom has a head. So it might be argued--though I still wouldn't want to be the one arguing it--that Paladine is the embodiment of good, or that Takhisis is the embodiment of evil. Manichean means a worldview defined by a conflict between two sides, in which one is good and all on it are allies, and the other is evil and all on it are allies. Dragonlance is the only D&D setting that comes close to it. In every other setting, there are many loosely connected gods who are good, neutral, or evil depending on whether they're the gods of honor, war, or tyranny; evil gods generally think of everyone who doesn't serve them as the enemy, including other evil gods, and a neutral god of Fire and a neutral god of Ice may hate each other as much as any two gods of opposed alignments could.

In OotS, there is exactly one god we know what he's the god of: The god of goblins. He used to be a mortal and appears to be the god of goblins not because he's the embodiment of the concept of goblins, but because he comprises the entirety of the goblin pantheon.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Narren]

True. But number is really not the point. We know for sure that one God exists that is Good aligned. This God is Thor. Kish said that deeming an entire race as unworthy of existance is an indication of an Evil alignment. My point was even if there was one Good aligned God, did he stand against the decision to deny Goblins and their leader and equal status in the OotSverse? If he did not, or indeed if he supported this decision, then it looks to me like a Good aligned character comitting an act defined as Evil by the D&D rules. Which means that just because elves are defined as Good aligned creatures, in the OotSverse, they may not view an act as evil even if it is defined as Evil in D&D.

I think this is a good point, which you earlier made and obfuscated with random numbers you threw around :smalltongue:

[G-Man Graves]

Pardon?


I was referencing the first season of Red vs. Blue, when, to play a joke on the new Recruit, Simmons and Grif sent him on a fool's errand, to pick up some "elbow grease" and "headlight fluid" at the "store". Since you were going to try and find a non-existent comic, I made this joke by asking you to pick up another impossible item. And that's the joke.

[Stille_Nacht]

Strictly speaking, we don't know that V's master is more powerful than he is or that he is a fairly prominent elf.

We do know that V thinks of his master as incredibly powerful, but idolizing your master or seeing him as better, stronger, or more knowledable than he is is is quite normal for a pupil. We also know that the three fiends played on V's perception of his master's strength in the alternative plan, but that doesn't prove that his master is that powerful either.

He may very well be: it is possible that V's beliefs about his master are nothing but the truth - but we don't know that it is the case.

According to strip # 634, V's master is able to handle an at least adult dragon with ease, meaning he may even be in epic levels...

[Kish]

According to strip # 634, V's master is able to handle an at least adult dragon with ease, meaning he may even be in epic levels...
Not quite. According to strip #634, Vaarsuvius was prepared to believe the fiends asserting that Aarindarius could kill the dragon with ease. Along with the other things involved in being prepared to believe that their explicitly-described-as-ridiculous-by-Qarr alternate plan would work.

[Fish]

I believe there is a solution being overlooked here. Sure, an elf standing around in the vicinity of V for no apparent reason, with an inexplicable grudge, is one thing. But a kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) lurking around Belkar too?
We know that the Linear Guild needs to replace the evil opposites of Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and Durkon. I can't for the life of me spot a matching dwarf yet, though.

[JonestheSpy]

Bumping this up to change my earlier "Probably nothing personal" opinion. It's seems obvious in #780 that Varsuvius didn't see Mr. Scruffy get away because he was avoiding looking at the elven ambassador - panel 4 & 7. Makes me think the connection is closer and more awkward than I'd thought - maybe the green hair IS an indication of a relation to Inkyrius or something.

[Themrys]

Aren't Elan, Haley and V all looking in the same direction while Polozius is looking in the other?

[JonestheSpy]

Nope, everyone is focused down and to the right (our right), while V is studiously looking off to the left, ignoring Blackwing's attempts to draw his attention to the right, where Polozius is sitting one seat over.

Looks to me like a blatant attempt to avoid meeting the ambassador's eye.

[t209]

I have a different theory:

The green-haired elf is trying to watch the show and is annoyed because Haley and V are talking so much. Have you ever tried to watch TV when people in the room are having a conversation? It's damn annoying! :smallmad:

I agree! I think he was annoyed with the talking!

[Bedinsis]

Bumping this up to change my earlier "Probably nothing personal" opinion. It's seems obvious in #780 that Varsuvius didn't see Mr. Scruffy get away because he was avoiding looking at the elven ambassador - panel 4 & 7. Makes me think the connection is closer and more awkward than I'd thought - maybe the green hair IS an indication of a relation to Inkyrius or something.

You've convinced me.

[Nimrod's Son]

I agree! I think he was annoyed with the talking!
Except he was already annoyed before they even got into the arena. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)

[t209]

Except he was already annoyed before they even got into the arena. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)

That is just his emotionless face. What the forum topic meant was this link:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html

[Nimrod's Son]

That is just his emotionless face. What the forum topic meant was this link:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html
I know what everyone was talking about. It says right there in the comic I linked that Polozius was glaring at V as he went up the stairs. So whatever he's upset about, it had happened long before they were sat together in the arena.

[TheProfessor]

I believe there is a solution being overlooked here. Sure, an elf standing around in the vicinity of V for no apparent reason, with an inexplicable grudge, is one thing. But a kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) lurking around Belkar too?
We know that the Linear Guild needs to replace the evil opposites of Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and Durkon. I can't for the life of me spot a matching dwarf yet, though.

Actually,that's a very good point. Elan is here,so is his dad,this would be the perfect time for Nale to strike again. We already know that the bounty hunters were looking for Nale,so it's very possible that Nale is in the city already.

[Edhelras]

In 784, it seems that the angry Green Elf Polozius is glaring not at V, but at Blackwing. Some other notes about P (from Post#61 in the 784 thread):


In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html), Blackwing thinks the Green Elf (Ambassador Polozius) is staring at V.
I'm puzzled by V's response, though: "This is not the time."

Also, in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html)the Green Elf was frowning even though neither V nor Blackwing were present.

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html), the Green Elf is first looking just unhappy, but then he's positively glaring when V and Blackwing arrives. Thing is, in the drawing where the Elf is glaring, V is actually looking the other way, while Blackwing is looking in Polonius' direction.

But still, it doesn't make sense that Polonius is angry at Blackwing, as long as when they first met, Blackwing didn't know Polonius, whereas V seemed to do so. Or at least, V didn't simply reply "Elf? What Elf?" to Blackwing's question.

Is it possible that Polonius is angry with V because V has a familiar? Perhaps V, some time before, acquired Blackwing in some illegitimate way, like, stole it from another mage (Polonius?) or something?

Nah, I guess the true answer is that The Giant read the Dungeon Master's Guide, and then he rolled d% on the table: "100 NPC traits", to get "Frowns and scowls continually"...

BTW previously in this thread, it was discussed whether the angry Elf could be V's master? But we already saw what Aarindarius looks like, in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html). It doesn't seem reasonable at all that the color scheme for A would change like that, their hair is different - they're not the same.

There seems to be multiple theories why P is angry with either V (or Blackwing, or the OOTS in general). The theory with the Elves being angry with V for "giving" away the deserted island to the Azurite refugees might hold water, theoretically - but it's not very fun, is it? Besides, the Elves have agreed to help retake Azure City, so how angry can they be?

The theory with P being a relative of Inkyrius might make some sense (though do we have any evidence that hair color signifies close kinship among the Elves?). But then it's hard to understand why there wouldn't, already, have come to some confrontation between V and P. Some snide remarks, at least.

I think the most likely cause for the enmity has either something to do with V's past, pre-OOTS - and thus will start a new side plot, or it's related to Blackwing in some fashion.

[allenw]

What if the elf was looking at something small and invisible hovering *above* Blackwing and V? I wonder if such a something might be able to, say, create an illusion of a raven? Though why Qarr would be doing such a thing, I don't know (yet).
Or else the Elf can tell that Blackwing has been posessed/influenced/impersonated by the Snarl.

[Corneel]

Maybe Polozius doesn't approve of Vaarsuvius's choice of familiar? Ravens might be linked to the dwarves, as they are in the Hobbit (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Raven) or through their connection with Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn), the head of the Northern Pantheon that the dwarves revere.

[Warren Dew]

In 784, it seems that the angry Green Elf Polozius is glaring not at V, but at Blackwing.
I think this is a key observation. I think it's likely that Polozius disapproves of Vaarsuvius' familicide. Now Polozius sees the same attitude in Blackwing's approval of the allosaur's actions, so he disapproves of Blackwing too - or at least of what Blackwing is saying.

[hamishspence]

Now Polozius sees the same attitude in Blackwing's approval of the allosaur's actions, so he disapproves of Blackwing too - or at least of what Blackwing is saying.

"Approving the allosaur's actions" isn't automatically the same attitude as "approving familicide".

I think Pendell said it best here:


Key points:

The soldiers in question are not children being killed in their eggs because of something they MIGHT do in the future. They are grown adults, ACTIVELY serving in an evil army, and ACTIVELY carrying out an evil overlord's evil order to shoot down prisoners in cold blood.

Thus, Elan doesn't feel particularly bad for those men, and shouldn't.

FIRST, they are soldiers, and getting killed is part of a soldier's job. Sad to the family, yes, but being killed in line of duty as an adult is an entirely different order of sad from being killed in the cradle because of something you MIGHT do in the future, when you can't even understand what's going on around you.

Children are innocent , at least of action, even in the D&D universe. Whether children can truly be evil from birth or not in D&D is something I don't know, but at the very least they've had no chance either to live down to their species' alignment descriptor or to exceed it.

SECOND, these soldiers are not engaged in fighting a war or saving children from a burning building. They are obeying the orders of an evil overlord to perform a D&D-evil act. The fact that armed men are stopped from doing evil is cause for rejoicing, not sadness. The fact that the armed men in question were killed rather than stopped some other way tempers that joy, but does not mean it should block it out completely.

THEREFORE, the killing of armed soldiers actively engaged in an evil act is nowhere near the same thing as killing children who are as yet innocent of ANY action, good or evil or neutral.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MoonCat]

Polozius is glaring again. What the hell is up with that elf?

[Warren Dew]

"Approving the allosaur's actions" isn't automatically the same attitude as "approving familicide".

I think Pendell said it best here:
Pendell makes some good points about how Polozius should not disapprove, perhaps - yes, the soldiers were serving an evil overlord and may themselves have been evil, just as the black dragons were likely largely evil - but the similarities between the situations makes it likely that Polozius doesn't share Pendell's views here.

Of course, Gannji and Enor were also recently serving the same evil overlord, which would make Polozius' disapproval of Blackwing's words a bit more justified.

[EmperorSarda]

Of course, Gannji and Enor were also recently serving the same evil overlord, which would make Polozius' disapproval of Blackwing's words a bit more justified.

Except prior to their introduction, they didn't know Tarquin. They thought they had a legit bounty. Their only crime was asking for $8,000 afterward.

[Warren Dew]

Except prior to their introduction, they didn't know Tarquin. They thought they had a legit bounty. Their only crime was asking for $8,000 afterward.
They did have a legit bounty. They just brought in the wrong people.

[Scarlet Knight]

Polozius is glaring again. What the hell is up with that elf?

He believes "Familiars should be seen and not heard"? :smallconfused:

[JSSheridan]

Because V is younger and has a higher intellect score.

[Gift Jeraff]

As of the moment, I'm thinking Polozius just generally dislikes the tyrannies of the Western Continent and is possibly an agent planted to keep an eye on Tarquin & co. S/he is disgusted that a fellow elf would associate with such horrible people, and Blackwing's offensive remarks confirm his/her suspicions that V is allied with them.

[t209]

Still glaring and looking up inthis! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

[Prowl]

It's probably something as simple as the chance that the Ambassador is elven nobility and V is not, and as a typical snooty noble, believes it is beneath him to associate with his lessers.

[Edhelras]

It's probably something as simple as the chance that the Ambassador is elven nobility and V is not, and as a typical snooty noble, believes it is beneath him to associate with his lessers.

These and similar interpretations, I have some difficulty with. While they might be true (the Elven ambassador might be an arrogant noble, or he might dislike anyone who appears to side with the Evil tyranny, or he might be displeased by an Evil necromantic act) - it seems irrelevant for the author to show this emotion in the comic. Polozius isn't a PC, he's (so far) just a barely named NPC. There is no reason - storytellingwise - why Rich should show us P's inner feelings, unless those feelings are very strong and very specifically directed towards one or more of the PCs or their close companions.

So:
If P is annoyed at V for not being noble - then we must expect a confrontation/side plot that centres on V (in the eyes of P) assuming nobility or something like that - that glare must have a cause and consequence.

If P is annoyed at OOTS for consorting with Tarquin - then we must expect a revelation that 1) P actually believes (based on what information?) that OOTS are close allies of Tarquin (more than just the kinship) and 2) that P is engaged in something more than just liking/disliking other empires, but that he or his Elven nation actually has an ongoing grudge or conflict with EoB or Tarquin that is about to erupt in open conflict.

If P is mad at V for his familicide - eh, really, is that the single most atrocious act an Elf has ever made? If it's so important to P, then the consequence of this glaring should be that P will somehow confront V or possibly "arrest" him and bring him to the Elven lands for a trial. Since this glare is so heavily expressed by the author, it has to signify something more grave than just P's petty sensibilities. BTW, I looked at the familicide strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)to see if any green-haired Elf was somehow involved in that, but found nothing.

One aspect of a stick figure comic is that there are so few visual clues in each panel, so few redundant lines, so everything that gets into the comic usually will be significant.

[Fish]

I believe there is a solution being overlooked here. Sure, an elf standing around in the vicinity of V for no apparent reason, with an inexplicable grudge, is one thing. But a kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) lurking around Belkar too?
We know that the Linear Guild needs to replace the evil opposites of Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and Durkon. I can't for the life of me spot a matching dwarf yet, though.
So, how does this theory look now?

Kobold near Belkar: check.
Elf near Vaarsuvius: check.
Thog near Roy: check.
Someone who looks like Nale near Elan: check.

[martianmister]

New theory:


Green Haired Elf is Nale after all and he is looking to his father/brother.

[Vemynal]

my idea: the green haired elf is Sabine and they didn't replace anyone this time. Remember their parting words at the battle of Azure city?

Much more likely its just the three of them

[martianmister]

my idea: the green haired elf is Sabine and they didn't replace anyone this time. Remember their parting words at the battle of Azure city?

Much more likely its just the three of them

No, Amun-Zora is Sabine. :smallamused:

[keldorn]

The recent comments echo my feelings on the return of Thog. The elf is probably connected with the guild. Now what sort of container will the dead Belkar's head become?

[Fish]

I suspect Tarquin is actually Nale; Nale came here looking for the Gate, and has every reason to a) know who Girard is, and b) not want to tell the OOTS until after the arena battle, where he springs his trap. Nale also had good reason to learn to defend against a Dashing Swordsman.

Thog could have been planted in the Arena to fight Roy. The charges against him seem too trivial even for Tarquin.

[martianmister]

This would be both wonderful and horrible. :smallamused:

[MoonCat]

my idea: the green haired elf is Sabine and they didn't replace anyone this time. Remember their parting words at the battle of Azure city?

Much more likely its just the three of them

I agree about there not being anyone else, but not about that. as far as we can see, Sabine can't change skin color.

[KillItWithFire]

Branching off the Sabine theory, I don't believe it's Sabine nessicarily but rather, the Linear Guild needed a new opposite for V so here we are. I think that this elf has had grievances against V speciffically before so that made him a natural candidate.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's both a new Linear Guilder and that nice green dragon girl from the next woods over (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html), shapeshifted.

[The Pilgrim]

The theory that the elf is an agent of Nale is getting stronger!

[Warren Dew]

The recent comments echo my feelings on the return of Thog. The elf is probably connected with the guild. Now what sort of container will the dead Belkar's head become?
A bowl for fruit salad?


I suspect Tarquin is actually Nale
Tarquin seems way too competent to be Nale.

[LuPuWei]

Tarquin seems way too competent to be Nale.

Yeah, I doubt Nale could've levelled enough to be completely unphased by Elan in a fight.

Also I was under the impression Nale was going for Kraagor's Gate.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'm with the people who think Polozius is a relative of Inkyrius, or something.

[skim172]

I vote for "off-screen incident from before the start of the series." Seems like the type of thing that'll be better addressed in the future.

[Jay R]

The theory that the elf is an agent of Nale is getting stronger!

If the elf is an agent of Nale, s/he would be trying to hide any animosity towards V. Furthermore, V would not know what it's about.

If the elf is NOT an agent of Nale, s/he would NOT be trying to hide the animosity towards V. Furthermore, V might know what it's about.

S/he is not trying to hide the animosity. And V knows what it's about. ("Now is not the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)", rather than "I don't know.")

Therefore, the elf is not likely to be an agent of Nale.

[ThePhantasm]

If the elf is an agent of Nale, s/he would be trying to hide any animosity towards V. Furthermore, V would not know what it's about.

If the elf is NOT an agent of Nale, s/he would NOT be trying to hide the animosity towards V. Furthermore, V might know what it's about.

S/he is not trying to hide the animosity. And V knows what it's about. ("Now is not the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)", rather than "I don't know.")

Therefore, the elf is not likely to be an agent of Nale.

Look out everyone... logic on the boards.

[The Pilgrim]

If the elf is an agent of Nale, s/he would be trying to hide any animosity towards V. Furthermore, V would not know what it's about.

If the elf is NOT an agent of Nale, s/he would NOT be trying to hide the animosity towards V. Furthermore, V might know what it's about.

S/he is not trying to hide the animosity. And V knows what it's about. ("Now is not the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)", rather than "I don't know.")

Therefore, the elf is not likely to be an agent of Nale.

What if the elven ambassador HAS some past grudge with V and, therefore, HAS agreed to work with Nale to get back at her?

As far as speculation goes, wouldn't be that wild. It's not like Nale hasn't employed someone with a family grudge against a member of the OOTS before.

[ThePhantasm]

What about the fact that Nale explicitly said he didn't want any more members in the Linear Guild?

[Gift Jeraff]

What about the fact that Nale explicitly said he didn't want any more members in the Linear Guild?
Though that's also how I read his dead weight line, that is by no means "explicitly" saying no more members.

[SPoD]

If the elf is an agent of Nale, s/he would be trying to hide any animosity towards V. Furthermore, V would not know what it's about.

If the elf is NOT an agent of Nale, s/he would NOT be trying to hide the animosity towards V. Furthermore, V might know what it's about.

S/he is not trying to hide the animosity. And V knows what it's about. ("Now is not the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)", rather than "I don't know.")

Therefore, the elf is not likely to be an agent of Nale.

Your logic assumes that the elf is CAPABLE of hiding their animosity toward Vaarsuvius just by deciding to do so. Many people are not, under similar circumstances. It is also probable that the facial expressions are for our benefit, as foreshadowing, rather than openly obvious to the characters every time the elf glares at them. What if the bird's Sense Motive is higher than V's? The looks may not be obvious to anyone, except Blackwing and the audience.

Also, you interpret V's "Now is not the time," to be an admission that V knows what it is about, whereas it is possible to interpret it as a desire for the bird not to speak out loud around Tarquin. As in, "Whatever you're blathering on about, shut up now, the villain is here."

[Themrys]

Your logic assumes that the elf is CAPABLE of hiding their animosity toward Vaarsuvius just by deciding to do so. Many people are not, under similar circumstances.

Really?
If I don't want people to know what I think of them, I just try not to look at them. Since V and the others are just sitting there, Polozius could easily avoid to look at V, glaring or otherwise.
Which leads to my assumption that s/he is angry at V and wants V to know that.

[Gift Jeraff]

So, I looked at all the strips with Polozius, trying to find a common factor, and here's what I got:
-#742 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html): Polozius is :smallannoyed:ing; Gourntonk, Tarquin, Elan, and Haley (off-panel) are in his/her line of sight.
-#744 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html): Unknown expression.
-#754 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html): Polozius has no expression when looking at Elan, apparently glared at V, HOWEVER, Haley and Blackwing would have also fallen in Polozius's line of sight; Gourntonk may have arrived behind V.
-#775 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html): Polozius has no expression while watching the pregame entertainment; :smallmad:ing when V arrives; Mr. Scruffy, Blackwing, V, Haley, Elan, Kilkil, Gourtonk, Turban Man, and a guard falls in his/her line of sight.
-#780 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html): Unknown expression while watching the match.
-#784 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html): No expression while looking at the allosaurus. :smallannoyed:ing at Blackwing.
So, presuming that s/he's glaring at Blackwing in #784 because of his anti-mammal sentiments, I wonder if Polozius is really glaring at Haley or Ambassador Gourntonk, and V/Blackwing are just red herrings?


However, I did have an unrelated idea:
The elves have had an open rift in their nation for the past 34~35 years and are now helping to liberate a city with a rift. There's a Gate somewhere in the desert, and Tarquin knows something about Girard. Maybe they want to conquer all of the rifts/Gates for whatever reason? (Protect them themselves? Use the Snarl? Conquer the world-within-the-world?)

[Ancalagon]

Really?
If I don't want people to know what I think of them, I just try not to look at them.

Sooo... is that a change from your normal behaviour? And suddenly, there's a reason to look for more. And people who are good about those things will find more.
I doubt your suggested plan here is perfect. ;)

And what if the ambassador is REALLY angry?

[Vemynal]

Well that solves that then!

Umm ok did anyone expect Zz'dtri?

[Maxios]

Well that solves that then!

Umm ok did anyone expect Zz'dtri?

I can honestly say I did NOT see that one coming :smalleek:

[totalnerduk]

Well that solves that then!

Umm ok did anyone expect Zz'dtri?

Thought about it for a sec, dismissed it as way too silly. Which just goes to show... something.

[The Pilgrim]

If the elf is an agent of Nale, s/he would be trying to hide any animosity towards V. Furthermore, V would not know what it's about.

If the elf is NOT an agent of Nale, s/he would NOT be trying to hide the animosity towards V. Furthermore, V might know what it's about.

S/he is not trying to hide the animosity. And V knows what it's about. ("Now is not the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)", rather than "I don't know.")

Therefore, the elf is not likely to be an agent of Nale.

Your obscure logic has been trumped!

Praise the Giant in all his Might!

[Fish]

I believe there is a solution being overlooked here. Sure, an elf standing around in the vicinity of V for no apparent reason, with an inexplicable grudge, is one thing. But a kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) lurking around Belkar too?
I called it pretty closely: it was the replacement for V's opposite in the Linear Guild. Now we see if the kobold is who I thought it was.

And the green magic, I dare say, answers the question of who cast the Wizard Eye back in the desert. It was Zzt'dri all along.

[ORione]

Well that solves that then!

Umm ok did anyone expect Zz'dtri?

I doubt it.

[ThePhantasm]

Your obscure logic has been trumped!

Praise the Giant in all his Might!

It seems it has. I'm shocked. But I don't understand how V seemed to know who Polozius was?! And then was surprised by Zz'ditri's appearance?? :smallconfused:

[t209]

can we finished this post?
-The Green haired elf is Zz'dtri and he wanted vengeance on Vaarsuvius.
-He survived because his character is a parody which is not copy right infringement (look at MAD magazine).
That's solves it!

[Boogastreehouse]

can we finished this post?
-The Green haired elf is Zz'dtri and he wanted vengeance on Vaarsuvius.
-He survived because his character is a parody which is not copy right infringement (look at MAD magazine).
That's solves it!

I knew it all along!

[Gift Jeraff]

It seems it has. I'm shocked. But I don't understand how V seemed to know who Polozius was?! And then was surprised by Zz'ditri's appearance?? :smallconfused:
It seems we were reading it wrong. V probably meant "Now is not the time" as in "We will deal with it later" or "There are more important matters at hand," not "I will tell you later."

[voiceofreason]

Glaring at Mr Scruffy I would say -- reacting to characteristic ability of animals to see through illusions.

[Flame of Anor]

Well that solves that then!

Umm ok did anyone expect Zz'dtri?

ZOWIE! There could be no character who is as surprising and makes as much sense as Zz'dtri! It's a perfect twist.

[Deliverance]

Well that solves that then!

Umm ok did anyone expect Zz'dtri?
Given that Zz'dtri was scratched out in the IFCC's picture of their henchmen in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), I seriously doubt it.

[Grogmir]

I'll go with other that say it seemed V knew P or something about the reason.

Does stand up they way it was written, but unlike so curve balls from the giant this seems a little more clunky.

V is either assuming P has heard about the Dragon slaying or was saying
"We have important work to do Now is not the time to discuss such things"

Still great reveal - hope for those of us that want Durkon to get a little more BS.

[voiceofreason]

To further support the idea that the glares were for Mr Scruffy, note that it was Mr Scruffy who spotted (presumably Z's) scrying eye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)in the desert.

[Teutonic Knight]

Well it IS the same shade of green magic. So PLAUSIBLE, as we don't know anyone else in that shade, and it's not like the Giant to reuse magic colors.