Setting people on fire [3.5 or pathfinder]

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm trying to design a spell that simply, automatically sets a target on fire as long as they're within range. No touch attack, no saves.

As it's minimal damage, I can't see this being too powerful.

Trouble is setting it's level is proving impossible. Can anyone help me find some nice ongoing damage effects for comparison?

Please?

[arguskos]

Personally, I'd ballpark this as level 1 or 2. The best on going damage I can think of off the top of my head is Melf's Acid Arrow (level 2, 2d4 damage for a few rounds).

I figure the minor damage being on fire actually deals would be around on par with Acid Arrow.

[Uncertainty]

Combust from the SpC might work...

The spell has both a no-save immediate damage effect and a ref-save effect that sets a target on fire for damage over the time. Remove the immediate damage effect, make the damage over time have no save, and make it work without a touch attack at (short?) range...

This way, you are loosing 1d8 damage per caster level in exchange for your no-touch-attack-ness... It seems like a decent trade-off at a glance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As per catching on fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#catchingOnFire), it would be 1d6 damage immediately and on the target's turn they would get a Reflex save at the spell's DC to automatically extinguish it and avoid further damage.

Ray of Flame is a 1st level Sorcerer/Wizard Evocation in Spell Compendium that takes a ranged touch attack and deals low damage plus has a chance of setting the target on fire. At 1st level you can deal 1d6 for hitting their touch AC (easily accomplished), and if they fail the save they take another immediate 1d6 for catching on fire, and then another 1d6 per failed save until they make one. For a 1st level character, it's actually quite potent (but nowhere near Power Word: Pain). You can also use it to damage objects, which automatically catch on fire due to having no Dex score (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). I think that if you need a spell to catch things on fire, this would be it.

[Quietus]

The problem with this is that the rules for being on fire explicitly say that being on fire gives saves, every single round. That being said, if someone wanted to make a spell that set someone on fire, I think arguskos has the right idea, a no-save, no-nothing "you're on fire" .. I'd have no problems with someone brought me a second level spell with the same duration as Melf's, that did 1d6 each of those rounds. Actually, that's really weak for a second level spell - I'd probably allow that as a first, and 1d6 each round for 1 round/caster level as a second.

[Mulletmanalive]

Soooo, the consensus is that a short ranged, "you are on fire" would be a level 1 spell?

It's not dealing nearly as much damage as ray of flame because it's not got primary damage, nor can it critical and it can be extinguished at the end of the victim's turn [or in the end phase as i run things] after dealing damage by making a Reflex save.

My basic hopes were to make it so that the target had a choice of acting normally and taking damage or attempting to extinguish the flames. Just "your forearm is on fire" type thing rather than "you're a walking inferno"

Thanks for all the help, guys!

[borg286]

the dragonsbreath arrows from races of the wild add +1 fire damage and if you hit they catch on fire. The nicest thing about catching on fire is that your clothes catch on fire too, and you must make a DC 15 reflex save for every item, including your spell component pouch. The only option is to either cast a dousing type spell or roll on the floor which starts the foe prone their next round and wasted their action.
These arrows cost 50gp for a set of 20.

[Ravens_cry]

Having this be no save whatsoever would break the action economy for trying to put yourself out, or it's basically a form of bleed, constant damage to many things.
Either way, that's not a first level spell.

[Tyndmyr]

Personally, I'd ballpark this as level 1 or 2. The best on going damage I can think of off the top of my head is Melf's Acid Arrow (level 2, 2d4 damage for a few rounds).

I figure the minor damage being on fire actually deals would be around on par with Acid Arrow.

Actually, reading the description, level 2 is exactly what I thought as well. It's a bit too good for level 1, but level 2 fits it perfectly.

I'm assuming normal d6/rnd fire here. Non magical, thus, inst conjuration.

I would even give it a pretty solid range, as having to be in touch range is fairly weak, and might even bring it down to a first level spell.

[arguskos]

I would even give it a pretty solid range, as having to be in touch range is fairly weak, and might even bring it down to a first level spell.
Man, I was assuming it'd have some range to it. If it was touch, hell no it's not a level 2 spell. The equivalent, Melf's acid arrow, would vastly outpace it (hell, so would combust).

Actually, that's a good comparison. Combust does EXACTLY this, but is level 2, and deals 1d8 fire/level (max 10d8), no save, if you make the touch attack. It's level 2. If this doesn't include the up-front and is touch, there is absolutely no way this is level 2. If this doesn't have the up-front but has range, I still might give it level 1, just cause being on fire is a stupidly bad condition.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

For some reason this reminds me of the ol' wish-twisting threads. "As another part of the wish, you are on fire, and the fire is on fire."

[Calimehter]

For further comparison, Molten Strike from Heroes of Battle is 2nd level, long range, and deals 2d6 initial damage plus setting someone on fire on a failed Reflex save.

I would say 1st level is probably fine - the whole "no save at range" thing is about the only thing that would make me even stop to ponder it.

[arguskos]

For further comparison, Molten Strike from Heroes of Battle is 2nd level, long range, and deals 2d6 initial damage plus setting someone on fire on a failed Reflex save.

I would say 1st level is probably fine - the whole "no save at range" thing is about the only thing that would make me even stop to ponder it.
And even then, the fact that being on fire HAS an in-built save would really negate the need for concern.

Yeah, I'm throwing my vote squarely at level 1 now that I've thought about combust.

[stainboy]

You can compare to Matter Agitation too, although it's a little different than what you want.

I'd allow what you described as a 1st level spell, assuming the target can save out of it after the 1st round as normal. Your spell has slightly better baseline damage than other 1st level nukes, but doesn't scale. It'd be your strongest damage spell at 1st level but by 3rd level it would be outperformed by Magic Missile. A 1st level wizard who prepares nukes instead of Sleep, Grease, or Color Spray is gimping himself pretty badly anyway so the spell being stronger at 1st level is no big deal.

[CigarPete]

Personally, I would do it a bit differently. Call the spell Napalm, and have it conjure a sticky, burning material on the target that cannot be removed or extinguished (napalm even burns under water afaik) for CL rounds and causes 1d6/round and requires a concentration check to cast while the spell is in effect.