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Elric VIII
2011-02-14, 08:48 PM
I am working on a Hellbred Paladin for another new player I have roped into one of my groups. He would like to be melee focused (which I take to mean as Cleric 19/PrC Pally 1 isn't going to cut it) and he wants to be the LG version of Paladin, playing a previously evil person that has seen the light.

I have a few ideas, but I'm not completely sure how to build a Paladin. A mounted Charger is not going to be viable for this campaign as I have been told.

My Ideas:

Cha-based using Divine feats.

Going for the Devil-Touched line of feats.

Taking Battle Blessing.

Possibly taking Grey Guard.

Maybe a dip into Marshal.

I know there's a mount ACF that gets you a spirit companion, but I don't remember what/where it is.


I would like some opinions on PrCs, Feats, and general strategy. I have

Zonugal
2011-02-14, 08:56 PM
I think a serious look at prestige classes like Grey Guard or Shadowbane Inquisitor would be right up this character's alley.

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908.0) is a solid list of alternate class features for the paladin. You mentioned the spirit companion acf (found in Dungeonscape), this could perhaps be re-flavored to be a spiritual demon?

Elric VIII
2011-02-14, 09:04 PM
I think a serious look at prestige classes like Grey Guard or Shadowbane Inquisitor would be right up this character's alley.

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908.0) is a solid list of alternate class features for the paladin. You mentioned the spirit companion acf (found in Dungeonscape), this could perhaps be re-flavored to be a spiritual demon?

I was thinking more along the lines of a shoulder angel to keep him in line, but that's a cool idea as well. I'll run them both by him before finalizing.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-14, 09:13 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a shoulder angel to keep him in line, but that's a cool idea as well. I'll run them both by him before finalizing.

You could always have both. The spirit companion could be something of a shoulder angel to the paladin whilst providing the combat benefits of the spirit companion.

thorr-kan
2011-02-14, 09:30 PM
CompChamp ACF that trades spellcasting for add'l feats.

Elric VIII
2011-02-14, 09:48 PM
CompChamp ACF that trades spellcasting for add'l feats.

Well, he didn't say no spellcasting, and I think that Battle Blessing + low level spells + Practiced Spellcaster will end up being more beneficial than the CC or CW ACFs.

Vemynal
2011-02-14, 10:17 PM
Make him a Crusader from Tome of Battles

Its a paladin but upgraded

He'll thank you when he's actually able to be involved in the campaign and not just sit there

Elric VIII
2011-02-14, 10:24 PM
Make him a Crusader from Tome of Battles

Its a paladin but upgraded

He'll thank you when he's actually able to be involved in the campaign and not just sit there

When he said "Paladin," my first thought was how to make him relevant. That's a good idea, I think I'll do this. Thank you.

Saint GoH
2011-02-14, 10:33 PM
Make him a Crusader from Tome of Battles

Its a paladin but upgraded

He'll thank you when he's actually able to be involved in the campaign and not just sit there

Cant suggest this enough. It's like a paladin, only useful and not completely horrendous to try and play.

Elric VIII
2011-02-14, 11:37 PM
Now, a Crusader usually wants at least a 2 level dip in order to get access to 8th level stances. Can anyone make recommendations?

I'm thinking of a dip into Cleric with a few levels of PrC Pally for TU, Cha to all saves, and some devotion/divine feats. However, with access to counters/boosts Battle Blessing will not be as useful (does this even work with PrC Pally?).

I was also thinking that it might be cool to try a smiting-based build and taking a few levels in a PrC that aids smiting (if one exists).

Waker
2011-02-15, 01:08 AM
Warpriest is another good choice for Paladin. You sacrifice some of your spellcasting (oh no), but you gain the Glory Domain, a number of SLA and some aura effects. The requirements are also very easy to meet.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-15, 01:49 AM
Give him what he wants: Paladin 20 build, but use the Charging Smite ACF in PH2. Feats should be Power Attack, Martial Study: Sudden Leap (max out jump ranks), Leap Attack, and I'd even get Martial Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance, plus anything else you want. Divine Might is good but not necessary. If he picks the Hellbred abilities that grant Telepathy, give him Mindsight from Lords of Madness at level 15.

Get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power and keep Rhino's Rush prepared. Get Armbands of Might, so when you Power Attack two-handed for -2 you'll get +8 damage when Leap Attacking. Smite deals +1 damage per Paladin level, Charging Smite deals an additional +2 damage per Paladin level, and he gets his Cha bonus to hit. With just a +1 Greatsword and Str 18, he'll be doing 2d6+1+6+8+(level x3)+Cha bonus with Divine Might, doubled for Rhino's Rush.

If that's not silly enough, change it to Fighter 2/ Paladin 18 for the build. He should take EWP: Ritiik (Frostburn), Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Leap Attack, and whatever else such as Divine Might. His damage will be pretty much the same as above, but with a Ritiik the target has to make a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage) or be hooked by it. He gets a free trip attempt against a hooked opponent, which if successful grants him an attack roll to deal damage again thanks to Improved Trip (no Smite damage, but vs their prone AC). After that he can pull out the Ritiik, dealing automatic damage equal to the initial hit that hooked them. New players like big numbers, and this is an extremely easy build to play.

Coidzor
2011-02-15, 03:30 AM
Cleric + PRC Pally 1-3 + Knight of the Raven/Bone Knight/Ordained Champion to taste. Cleric 6/PRC Pally 1-3/Knight of the Raven 10/Ordained Champion 1-3 would lose 2-3 CL and 2 BAB. I think. Don't remember where Ordained Champion loses its CLs, sorry. And Holy Mount(dragon mag) + Dragon Steed(draconomicon) would give full benefits as Paladin 20... even if he doesn't ride it.

Alternatively, Cleric + Crusader + PRC Pally + refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator if TOB is on the table.

Now, granted, I'm not all that good at this, but it seems like Cleric 2-4/Crusader 1-3/PRC Pally 1 -> PRC of choice X/Crusader Y/RKV Z would deliver a lot, potentially even a lot of what is wanted. Loses 1 BAB and between 3-6 CL depending upon PRC distribution.


Elric: In regards to Battle Blessing and PrC Paladin, general consensus seems to be a yes, but only for spells that are from the Paladin list.

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 10:14 AM
Well, I'll discuss it with him, but I'm not sure that he meant the actual Paladin class over just a holy warrior. But I will be presenting him with all of the various ideas from this thread.

Perhaps if I run it by my DM, we can give PrC Pally the RKV's maneuver progression (extrapolating the extra 5 levels) and replace Shadow Hand with White Raven. With this, Crusader 4/Cleric 1/PrC Pally 15 would pretty much duplicate Paladin 20 with -1 BAB and a few more spells, plus added matrial maneuvers.


Elric: In regards to Battle Blessing and PrC Paladin, general consensus seems to be a yes, but only for spells that are from the Paladin list.
I hadn't even considered that it would affect non-paladin spells. Thanks for the clarification.

Pechvarry
2011-02-15, 12:02 PM
If you're going that route, why not try for Paladin 20, replacing spellcasting with a maneuver progression? I guess it may be a bit harder to figure, but I'd go for something like Warblade progression, Devoted Spirit, White Raven, maybe one other. And I'd use the Swordsage refresh mechanic just because full warblade progression seems so much better than paladin casting.

Or not.

Fouredged Sword
2011-02-15, 12:21 PM
Devoted spirit, dimond mind, and white raven. Faith, Focus, and Leadership. If you are not concerned with the power of the class being in line with warblade/crusader and the rest of the group is well oped, then throw in Iron Heart for bravery.

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 12:46 PM
If you're going that route, why not try for Paladin 20, replacing spellcasting with a maneuver progression? I guess it may be a bit harder to figure, but I'd go for something like Warblade progression, Devoted Spirit, White Raven, maybe one other. And I'd use the Swordsage refresh mechanic just because full warblade progression seems so much better than paladin casting.

Or not.


Devoted spirit, dimond mind, and white raven. Faith, Focus, and Leadership. If you are not concerned with the power of the class being in line with warblade/crusader and the rest of the group is well oped, then throw in Iron Heart for bravery.

This really streamlines the idea. I don't suppose that there exists any good homebrews of ToB Paladin?

Personally, I believe the iconic Paladin abilities are the smites/evil-dar/mount, rather than spellcasting. Even a Crusader with the Paladin abilities instead of the normal would be cool.

Tenebris
2011-02-15, 12:50 PM
Or, if you are not particularly interested in martial maneuvers, you can take paladin 14, sorcerer 1, abjurant champion 5. Your AC will be just beyond VoP good incarnate :smallwink:

You can even be a battle sorcerer, no matter - you are going to cast only shield spell/some other abjurations. Plus thus you can wear mithral fullplate without chance of blowing spells (though requires a feat). If you don't like having a familiar, just trade it for sth else (Spell Shield? - but only if you can also burn paladin spells with it), but IMHO it's good to have a raven scout/messenger.

Also get Charging Smite ACF. Phantom Steed spell is much better than your special mount.
--------------------------------------

Of course it is not a paladin build I'd personally choose. Paladin of freedom 3, warlock 2, sorcerer 1, abjurant champion 5 (advance warlock), hellfire warlock 3 - sounds so much fun on hellbred :smallbiggrin: I'd even finish with the Enlightened Spirit for fun (and angelic wings). But you wanted more paladin in your paladin, so...

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 01:08 PM
Of course it is not a paladin build I'd personally choose. Paladin of freedom 3, warlock 2, sorcerer 1, abjurant champion 5 (advance warlock), hellfire warlock 3 - sounds so much fun on hellbred :smallbiggrin: But you wanted more paladin in your paladin, so...

Well, this is an interesing build. I do agree that it might not be an exact fit to the given specifications.

Person_Man
2011-02-15, 03:16 PM
Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)
Smite Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492)
Paladin Special Mounts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6985038)

General tips:

If at all possible, use the Pathfinder Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) instead of the 3.5 Paladin. It's vastly superior.
If you are going to use the 3.5 Paladin, consider the Paladin of Freedom instead. Immunity to Compulsion is superior to Immunity to Fear.
At low levels, Paladins generally want to multi-class heavily into other Cha based classes, especially Crusader, Binder, Marshal, and Bard.
Thanks to their high Charisma, at mid levels a Paladin who invests in UMD can generally use it sooner and more effectively the a Rogue or other non-Cha based Skill Monkey of the same level. The only down side is that it costs twice as many Skill points, which isn't a big of a deal if you don't care about being the party face.
At mid levels Paladin's most powerful class feature is their Special Mount. It gives your enemies another meaty target (other then you). It increases your movement speed and often adds the ability to Fly or Climb. It multiplies damage with a lance. You can Share Spells, and thus buffs. And when augmented with the appropriate feats or PrC, it's essentially a second Tier 4ish PC that you control. A Small race riding a Medium mount can essentially go everywhere that a normal party can. If need be, you can play a Tiny race riding a Small mount, because a Paladin's damage is largely a function of Power Attack and Smite, not size.
At mid-high levels a Paladin can get dramatically high To-Hit, Saves, and AC by stacking X to Y bonuses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) from their Charisma.
At high levels, you're almost always better off with a Cleric/Something over a Paladin or a Paladin/Something. Good PrC options include Prestige Paladin, Fist of Raziel, Knight of the Raven, Ordained Champion, and Triadic Knight. Each will end up with all or most of the class abilities of the Paladin, but with far superior casting. The only down side is that you give up a 2 points of BAB when you don't have Divine Power up. Such a character will often be superior at melee (even before buff spells) compared to a normal Paladin or Paladin/PrC thanks to Domains and PrC special abilities. With the addition of even minor buffs, or even just combat healing and the occasional Summons, the comparison isn't even close.

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 04:48 PM
Thank you for the guides, Person_Man. The PF Paladin is much better than the 3.5 one.

Keld Denar
2011-02-15, 05:04 PM
Elric, do a quick google search for Sublime Ranger or Sublime Marshall. Both are pretty good ToB adaptions of lackluster classes. Take those as base guidelines on how to add ToB to Paladin for a seamless 20 level build.

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 05:56 PM
Ok, so here's what I've got:

Sublime Paladin:

Disciplines: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, White Raven.
Maneuvers/Recovery: As Crusader.
Spells: None

Detect Evil: As Paladin
Divine Grace: As Paladin
Lay on Hands: As Paladin
Smite Evil: As Paladin
Special Mount: As Paladin
Remove Disease: Replaced with Smiting Strike.
Turn Undead: As Paladin


Smiting Strike: 1/day you may Smite Evil while initiating a Strike. The only Applies to the first attack of the strike.


The Paladin wording seems to imply that a Smite Evil is an attack action by itself. However, no action type is listed for the Crusader Smite, although it is implied that it may work on any attack, even a maneuver. Which is correct?

Would it be too much to add the RKV ability to change TU into a readied/granted maneuver?

Now, this seems like it would be significantly more powerful than a normal Paladin, however that's not a very high standard of comparison. It is my opinion that White Raven and Diamond Mind are the most powerful disciplines, what are other people's opinions?


Smiter:

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 4/Marshal 1/Warpriest 10/OC +1


Domains War, Good, Nobility

Does the Marshal Aura that boosts Cha checks also boost Smite damage? Otherwise I'll use the +Cha to charge damage ability.

OC 5 doesn't seem very useful since the spell focus will probobly be buffs and Wis only needs to be 16 by level 20. This will be a tertiary stat at best, after Str and Cha. Probobly after Con as well.

PrC pally is a waster of a feat (Mounted Combat), since it is unlikely that a mount will be useful, so that's why it's not included here.

This loses only 1 level of Smiting damage since everything but Marshal progresses TU and you can smite anything useing 1 TU attempt to Smite.


The latter class is the most likely to be approved since homebrew is discouraged, but I will try to push for the former. Any comments/advice is welcomed.

Keld Denar
2011-02-15, 06:26 PM
Smiting is for the most part a non-action. It's something you can add to any attack, just like Power Attacking is. If you have multiple attacks in a round, you can smite on each, if you have enough smites/day.

Ordained Champion is the exception to this. OC smiting is a swift action.

I won't drop Turn Undead...its HUGELY awesome for giving Pally's Cha based attack feats like Divine Might or Law Devotion.

Pechvarry
2011-02-15, 06:39 PM
Maneuvers/Recovery: As Crusader.

...

Smiting Strike: 1/day you may Smite Evil while initiating a Strike. The only Applies to the first attack of the strike.


I'm not a fan of crusader recovery mechanic on a sublime paladin because you may as well just be a crusader at that point. If swordsage is too crippling and warblade is too good, come up with a new one.

As for smiting strike, as has been mentioned, you don't need it. Smite is something affecting another attack, so smite+strike is already part of the deal (and no doubt expected for Crusaders).

Fouredged Sword
2011-02-15, 06:45 PM
I would grant warblade progression, but make recovery something that happens every time you strike someone of an chaotic or evil alignment.

Pechvarry
2011-02-15, 07:30 PM
That could be pretty awesome. Though it'd make multiattacking ideal and that's less than awesome.

Fouredged Sword
2011-02-15, 07:43 PM
I would make it so it you recover a manuver only when you strike a foe with a normal melee attack, this would encourage you to use normal melee attacks on a turn you don't use a manuver or strike.

Elric VIII
2011-02-16, 01:33 AM
Smiting is for the most part a non-action. It's something you can add to any attack, just like Power Attacking is. If you have multiple attacks in a round, you can smite on each, if you have enough smites/day.

Ordained Champion is the exception to this. OC smiting is a swift action.

I won't drop Turn Undead...its HUGELY awesome for giving Pally's Cha based attack feats like Divine Might or Law Devotion.

Neither build loses TU, or if it does it's a mistake.


I would make it so it you recover a manuver only when you strike a foe with a normal melee attack, this would encourage you to use normal melee attacks on a turn you don't use a manuver or strike.

That's almost the Warblade recovery.



Alright, for Maneuvers how about Crusader Maneuvers Known/Readied. For recovery how about "A Paladin recovers an expended maneuver equal to the total points healed when using his Lay on Hands ability," then improve on the Lay on Hands ability over the class (Level*Cha at 1, 2*Level*Cha at 4, 3*Level*Cha at 8, ect)?

Then, replace Remove Disease (such a useless ability since it's almost irrelevant by the time you get it) with the Mercy ability from the PF Pally?

Thurbane
2011-02-16, 01:40 AM
Make him a Crusader from Tome of Battles

Its a paladin but upgraded

He'll thank you when he's actually able to be involved in the campaign and not just sit there
Ugh...a Paladin is a perfectly playable class, especially in a low-mid op game, when non-core options are added. The fact that ToB is the only source of "playable" melee classes is a myth perpetuated on internet forums. :smallmad:

Queue ToB argument in 3...2...1...

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 01:43 AM
Ugh...a Paladin is a perfectly playable class, especially in a low-mid op game, when non-core options are added. The fact that ToB is the only source of "playable" melee classes is a myth perpetuated on internet forums. :smallmad:

Queue ToB argument in 3...2...1...

No, Paladin is not playable. No, not even then. Honestly, I've had more fun times with Fighters. Play a Crusader, save the fall mechanic headaches and the bending over backwards to get a decent build.

Elric VIII
2011-02-16, 02:07 AM
I have to agree with Lord_Gareth on this one. My group tends to be at least decently optimized and we like to play around with gray morality. It makes a Paladin a headache since they cannot be involved in anything that potentially offends their code. Clerics have more leeway with diety choices and alignment being their only limitations.

Thurbane
2011-02-16, 02:15 AM
I have to agree with Lord_Gareth on this one. My group tends to be at least decently optimized and we like to play around with gray morality. It makes a Paladin a headache since they cannot be involved in anything that potentially offends their code. Clerics have more leeway with diety choices and alignment being their only limitations.
Hey, if Crusader works better for your group, all well and good.

It just irks me that people perpetuate this myth that Paladin is unplayable. There is basically no class that is unplayable, not even the vaunted Truenamer. The people who hammer this point tend to be uber-optimizers, and assume every other group out there is, too.

Sure, some classes are (much) more powerful or versatile than others. But if playing the most powerful or versatile character possibly available was the primary goal of D&D, surely no-one would play anything other than Druids or Wizards, right? Heck, why stop there - just house rule that Pun Pun is the only PC option available. :smallamused:

...anyway, sorry for the derail, this type of argument always gets messy, and probably belongs in another thread. We haven't had our monthly ToB thread for a while now, anyway. :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 02:18 AM
Hey, if Crusader works better for your group, all well and good.

It just irks me that people perpetuate this myth that Paladin is unplayable. There is basically no class that is unplayable, not even the vaunted Truenamer. The people who hammer this point tend to be uber-optimizers, and assume every other group out there is, too.

Sure, some classes are (much) more powerful or versatile than others. But if playing the most powerful or versatile character possibly available was the primary goal of D&D, surely no-one would play anything other than Druids or Wizards, right? Heck, why stop there - just house rule that Pun Pun is the only PC option available. :smallamused:

...anyway, sorry for the derail, this type of argument always gets messy, and probably belongs in another thread. We haven't had our monthly ToB thread for a while now, anyway. :smalltongue:

Your DM has you fight nonevil enemies and suddenly, you lose almost all effectiveness in the fight.

6/9 creatures in D&D are non-evil.

Does this not seem like a severe playability problem to you?

satorian
2011-02-16, 02:23 AM
6/9 beings may be non-evil, but in my games at least, 19/20 of the enemies actually faced are evil. The rest are animals. So no, the paladin's code is absolutely not crippling. And in pathfinder, the class itself is pretty great.

To each his own, man. I personally find the mechanics of the crusader ridiculous and silly.

Elric VIII
2011-02-16, 02:26 AM
The problem is that you are only a little better off than a Fighter in combat, you are fairly MAD, you don't have the skill points or high Int to be capable in a non-RP, non-combat situation. This is all surpassable if your party can work together well and make up for your deficiencies.

The real trouble with a Paladin is that unless you want to toss out the code, the other players are forced to RP in a style that matches yours. This is even alluded to in the Knight class where it mentions that, unlike a Paladin, he is under no obligation to stop an ally from using means that offend his code as long as he doesn't participate.

Coidzor
2011-02-16, 02:46 AM
^: I believe the Giant had a strip about that, actually.... But I can't seem to find it. x.x

Just was looking over Dictum Mortuum's handiworkbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007). Saw Underdark Knight mentioned as a potentially viable mount replacement ACF.

And Elric VIII, that other ACF you were thinking of in the OP was probably Divine Spirit from Dungeonscape.


It just irks me that people perpetuate this myth that Paladin is unplayable. There is basically no class that is unplayable, not even the vaunted Truenamer. The people who hammer this point tend to be uber-optimizers, and assume every other group out there is, too.

As far as I can tell, it's perpetuated in order to dissuade those who don't have the system mastery necessary to be up to par while playing as such a class. Well, that, and for the novelty of having a class picked out as the absolute worst of the worst as a sort of internet-wide noodle incident (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident)(tvtropes warning). Though I can never quite tell whether monks or truenamers are more noodle incidenty... I don't think fighters or pallys are quite in the running though... and the PrC that forces you to take all 10 levels and then kills you is a bit too obscure...

Elric VIII
2011-02-16, 03:15 AM
Just was looking over Dictum Mortuum's handiworkbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007). Saw Underdark Knight mentioned as a potentially viable mount replacement ACF.

And Elric VIII, that other ACF you were thinking of in the OP was probably Divine Spirit from Dungeonscape.



As far as I can tell, it's perpetuated in order to dissuade those who don't have the system mastery necessary to be up to par while playing as such a class. Well, that, and for the novelty of having a class picked out as the absolute worst of the worst as a sort of internet-wide noodle incident (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident)(tvtropes warning). Though I can never quite tell whether monks or truenamers are more noodle incidenty... I don't think fighters or pallys are quite in the running though... and the PrC that forces you to take all 10 levels and then kills you is a bit too obscure...

Thanks, but I've already looked over the handbook. It's great for designing a Paladin using the class itself, but I always like the alternate build suggestion for a certain concept that I receive here.If you mean the Risen Martyr, I had considered playing one, once.

Zonugal
2011-02-16, 03:23 AM
Your DM has you fight nonevil enemies and suddenly, you lose almost all effectiveness in the fight.

6/9 creatures in D&D are non-evil.

Does this not seem like a severe playability problem to you?

There seems to a collective assumption that as a Paladin you must engage a non-evil character or even kill them (the option of using non-lethal force is open).

I'm having to agree with Thurbane that the Paladin may present an increased challenge via their code but they are no means unplayable.

Saint GoH
2011-02-16, 05:01 AM
Hey, if Crusader works better for your group, all well and good.

It just irks me that people perpetuate this myth that Paladin is unplayable. There is basically no class that is unplayable, not even the vaunted Truenamer. The people who hammer this point tend to be uber-optimizers, and assume every other group out there is, too.

Sure, some classes are (much) more powerful or versatile than others. But if playing the most powerful or versatile character possibly available was the primary goal of D&D, surely no-one would play anything other than Druids or Wizards, right? Heck, why stop there - just house rule that Pun Pun is the only PC option available. :smallamused:

...anyway, sorry for the derail, this type of argument always gets messy, and probably belongs in another thread. We haven't had our monthly ToB thread for a while now, anyway. :smalltongue:

I think you are missing the total point that this ISN'T an optimization issue. It's an "OMG you mean if I'm not friggin perfect I lose all my class abilities never to have them again unless I go through arduous DM fiat?!"

Real people have to make tough decisions involving gray area's. Let's say the PC's get attacked by bandits. Evil people right? Hack and slash and slaughter em all. If you were a mean enough DM, you could have a paladin fall for that. Sure, some of them were terrible thieves, but they offered to let you go if you gave them a certain amount of money. The party instead fights back, not knowing that more than one of those "thieves" goes home at night and is a devoted husband and loving father. So yes, the PC's just murdered a few neutral peasants trying to feed their families.

The sheer class mechanics of "never knowingly associate with evil characters" and losing all abilities if s/he "ever willingly commits an evil act" calls to mind "WTH was WotC thinking?"

Its not an unoptimization issue. You can make a lovely charger using only Core and Completes with a paladin. Its a playability issue. The Code of Conduct forces PC's out of more difficult character development then it helps. It causes PC's to be static instead of fluid. Its a miserable, terrible, makes-kittens-die-at-night thing.

Thurbane
2011-02-16, 05:43 AM
Its not an unoptimization issue. You can make a lovely charger using only Core and Completes with a paladin. Its a playability issue. The Code of Conduct forces PC's out of more difficult character development then it helps. It causes PC's to be static instead of fluid. Its a miserable, terrible, makes-kittens-die-at-night thing.
Perhaps I did miss the point, if that's the case.

Still, in 25 years of D&D gaming, I've never seen any unresolvable issues with the various incarnations of the Paladin's code. Yes, the code is supposed to be difficult - that's the whole point. It always has been. If you don't think you can play a holy, honorable knight who is above reproach, the Paladin isn't the class for you. To many people seem to get hung up on these hypothetical "unresolvable paradox" situations, where the Paladin cannot realistically be expected not to break his code. If the DM is deliberately and consistently throwing these situations at a Paladin, then it's a DM issue more than a rules issue.

I guess I'm used to predominantly playing in good aligned, heroic parties - where it's not only the Paladin who is trying to uphold high ideals. Quite honestly, in all my gaming experience, I've never seen anyone playing a Paladin backed into a corner where he had to break his code. True, it often meant suffering hardship, or taking a difficult course of action, but thats oftenthe result of playing the Paladin.

Long story short: sure, the Paladin isn't for everyone, but unless your playing under a RBDM, these "no way out" scenarios really are quite rare.

Look at that - here I was expecting the monthly ToB bunfight, and instead I wind up in the monthly "Paladin must fall!" thread. :smalltongue:

Elric VIII
2011-02-16, 05:55 AM
DMs that prepare ways to make Paladins fall on purpose are just bad at the whole concept of DMing (unless there's some plot-related reason they want it to happen).

Remember, understanding the subtle nuances of RP and implications of actions is not the easiest thing for a first time player to grasp.

Just to muddy things up a bit with an example: I'm playing a LG necromancer that uses controlled, unintelligent undead (which he sees as tools to be used and discarded/destroyed when they are no longer needed) to hunt and kill demons, devils, and intelligent undead (which he sees as abominations). A Paladin could never be in the same group as me, since undead are always Evil, in spite of the fact that my character is a good, honorable person that believes in upholding his beliefs above all things.

Coidzor
2011-02-16, 05:55 AM
Look at that - here I was expecting the monthly ToB bunfight, and instead I wind up in the monthly "Paladin must fall!" thread. :smalltongue:

<_< >_> We do seem to have had a couple of those spring up almost simultaneously...

Oh, and I found the OotS strip. It's #251. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)

Pechvarry
2011-02-16, 09:34 AM
Elric, your suggestion for recovery mechanic could probably work ok, but it also seems complicated, which means the DM has even more reason to say no.

Honestly, you could just have no refresh mechanic if the DM thinks it'd be too powerful.

I won't comment on the non-homebrew options because I think others have covered that quite well.

Jayabalard
2011-02-16, 09:59 AM
Your DM has you fight nonevil enemies and suddenly, you lose almost all effectiveness in the fight.There are a couple of problems iwth this statement:


If "Your DM has you fight X" then you're being railroaded pretty hard; you should be choosing who you fight. If a group has a paladin in it, this is especially true: you should be seeking out evil to combat. That's what paladins do.
Even when you choose to fight non-evil opponents, you only lose a portion of your combat effectiveness; much of your damage, for example, comes from charging/power attack... smite is just icing on the cake.



6/9 creatures in D&D are non-evil.

Does this not seem like a severe playability problem to you?Not in the slightest; a decent (if not the vast majority) portion of those creatures should be non-combat encounters (which a high charisma paladin can be quite involved in), or you've not bought into what it means to play a paladin.

Like I said above... as a paladin you should be seeking out evil, not stamping out the giant rat population in the city sewers. So the proportion of evil to non-evil fighting opponents should be pretty heavily weighted toward "evil" ... and the other 3/9ths of the creatures are plenty.


I think you are missing the total point that this ISN'T an optimization issue. It's an "OMG you mean if I'm not friggin perfect I lose all my class abilities never to have them again unless I go through arduous DM fiat?!"Saying that he's missing the point and declaring that this is what the debate is over is kind of absurd... there are people arguing that exact point with Thurbane.

It is (and has been for the last couple of decades) a quite playable class from a strictly RP standpoint. The only possible argument against it being playable at all is from an optimization standpoint ... and like he said, that's only an issue at certain optimization levels.


Real people have to make tough decisions involving gray area's. Let's say the PC's get attacked by bandits. Evil people right? Hack and slash and slaughter em all. If you were a mean bad enough DM, you could have a paladin fall for that. Fixed that; the only problem here is the result of having a bad GM... and if you have one of those you're screwed regardless.


Sure, some of them were terrible thieves, but they offered to let you go if you gave them a certain amount of money. The party instead fights back, not knowing that more than one of those "thieves" goes home at night and is a devoted husband and loving father. So yes, the PC's just murdered a few neutral peasants trying to feed their families.No, they did not murder anyone; murder is a very specific term, and isn't applicable when fighting and killing someone while defending yourself from an armed robbery. Nothing in this scenario violates the paladin's code of conduct.

The only time you have a problem in that scenario is if you have a bad dm (one who's out to screw the players), and then it doesn't really matter if you play a paladin or not... you're screwed.


The sheer class mechanics of "never knowingly associate with evil characters" and losing all abilities if s/he "ever willingly commits an evil act" calls to mind "WTH was WotC thinking?"The answer to that is simple; they were thinking "well, this is the requirements that TSR came up with, and people liked the class back then so we'll keep it"


Its not an unoptimization issue. You can make a lovely charger using only Core and Completes with a paladin. Its a playability issue. The Code of Conduct forces PC's out of more difficult character development then it helps. It causes PC's to be static instead of fluid.This does not make the character unplayable. The code does not cause PCs to be static; you can have a quite fluid character while following it.

I can't really tell what you're trying to say with the "character development" bit... but the code does not hinder character development one iota.

Person_Man
2011-02-16, 10:52 AM
I've successfully played a core only Paladin and had fun with it. And I'm the avatar of cheese.

The real issue is not how powerful a class is. It's how powerful your party is, and how quickly do you get bored? If your party is uber and spends all of it's time in combat and you are weak and want to spend most of your time roleplaying, then playing a low tier class is likely to become very boring very soon. Conversely, if your character is a Batman Wizard with a spell for every contingency in a party of Monks, you will also get bored shortly after your Mary Sue complex runs it's course. Somewhere in the middle is the fun sweet spot of D&D, and it varies wildly depending on the player.

Jayabalard
2011-02-16, 11:35 AM
Just to muddy things up a bit with an example: I'm playing a LG necromancer that uses controlled, unintelligent undead (which he sees as tools to be used and discarded/destroyed when they are no longer needed) to hunt and kill demons, devils, and intelligent undead (which he sees as abominations).

A Paladin could never be in the same group as me, since undead are always Evil, in spite of the fact that my character is a good, honorable person that believes in upholding his beliefs above all things.If undead are always evil, and creating them is always evil, then some would argue that your character is simply mislabeled as good when it really should be labeled as neutral (at best) or even lawful evil, regardless of how much good you do.

I mean, there's only a problem if you "consistently offends her moral code" and if you're doing that, you're not really good... if you're not doing that, I don't see the problem with being in the same party.

Elric VIII
2011-02-16, 01:04 PM
If undead are always evil, and creating them is always evil, then some would argue that your character is simply mislabeled as good when it really should be labeled as neutral (at best) or even lawful evil, regardless of how much good you do.

I mean, there's only a problem if you "consistently offends her moral code" and if you're doing that, you're not really good... if you're not doing that, I don't see the problem with being in the same party.

Well, the character concept is based off an article from Dragon Magazine that details playing necromancers of each alignment. There's nothing from a rules standpoint that backs up the character, but I was playing the character to express the concept of using Evil to fight Evil. If my character acts like one alignment and casts spells like another, you could argue the mislabled idea from either angle.

Also, the Paladin's code says that he will never willingly associate with Evil, so he cannot adventure with me unless I don't do what my character's entire personality is based around.


I would also like to take this time to thank everyone for their help with this character. The player has decided not to join us after all, but I do encourage a continuation of the discussion if people so choose.

Jayabalard
2011-02-16, 02:09 PM
Also, the Paladin's code says that he will never willingly associate with Evil, so he cannot adventure with me unless I don't do what my character's entire personality is based around.That's under associations, not the the section title "code of conduct" (at least in the SRD). I personally read that as more "what sort of cohorts can a paladin have" and "how do NPC paladins generally behave" with a bit of "how you are expected to behave as a paladin" rather than an ironclad "you must do X" rule.

Note that it does not say that paladins won't associate with evil, just that they won't associate with evil characters. He can adventure with you just fine, as long as you yourself aren't evil, and as long as you don't consistently offend his moral code. Since you describe the character as someone who goes back and forth between good and evil that may not qualify as "consistently"

And even if it does, that would only be a violation, not necessarily a gross violation of the paladin code (only the latter is listed in the section of "what makes a paladin fall").


I would also like to take this time to thank everyone for their help with this character. The player has decided not to join us after all, but I do encourage a continuation of the discussion if people so choose. awww :smallfrown:

Keld Denar
2011-02-16, 02:38 PM
Malconvokers have to be good, and regularly cast spells with the [Evil] descriptor (any summon that brings a fiendish creature into play has the [Evil] descriptor after all). Granted, Malconvoker's have a special clause in their class that allows them to fight evil with evil while maintaining a good alignment, but the principals are the same.

Thurbane
2011-02-16, 02:44 PM
I've successfully played a core only Paladin and had fun with it. And I'm the avatar of cheese.

The real issue is not how powerful a class is. It's how powerful your party is, and how quickly do you get bored? If your party is uber and spends all of it's time in combat and you are weak and want to spend most of your time roleplaying, then playing a low tier class is likely to become very boring very soon. Conversely, if your character is a Batman Wizard with a spell for every contingency in a party of Monks, you will also get bored shortly after your Mary Sue complex runs it's course. Somewhere in the middle is the fun sweet spot of D&D, and it varies wildly depending on the player.
Very well said. :smallsmile: