PDA

View Full Version : Optimizing Magic Missile [3.5]



Chess435
2011-02-14, 10:15 PM
I have this character who's currently level 3 in a boss rush campaign, (The Bob link in my signature) and I want to have him kill things with magic missile, even at higher levels. He's currently a level 3 sorcerer, and I plan to have him take the force missile mage PrC after level 6. (DM has already approved) My question to you is this:

What spells/skills/feats/items/etc. should I get in order to make this lowly 1st level spell effective in the upper echolons of power?

dsmiles
2011-02-14, 10:18 PM
Empower, Maximize, and Quicken for starters.
I know there's more out there (I see people posting about them all the time), but since I almost never play casters, I don't know all of the cool ones.

CockroachTeaParty
2011-02-14, 10:20 PM
You might want Heighten spell too, in case enemies start busting out the Globes of Invulnerability.

Caliphbubba
2011-02-14, 10:24 PM
Fell Drain might be a good option. [I]Magic Missiles[I] that also drain levels seems tasty, and might end up killing things faster than straight damage.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-14, 10:33 PM
Arcane Thesis with any/all Metamagic feats.

Demidos
2011-02-14, 10:34 PM
Twin, repeating:smallbiggrin:

Chess435
2011-02-14, 10:35 PM
Twin, repeating:smallbiggrin:


Arcane Thesis with any/all Metamagic feats.



Where are those from?

FMArthur
2011-02-14, 10:41 PM
Where are those from?

Twin Spell is a +4 metamagic from Complete Arcane. It is completely redundant in the face of Quicken Spell, but in metamagic combos where Quicken is already involved it's nice.

Repeat Spell is a slightly more efficient +3 metamagic from Complete Arcane that is the same as Twin but the second spell goes off in the next round (with no extra action required).

Arcane Thesis from Player's Handbook II is a feat that you can choose around 9th level (?), and select one spell to reduce the slot adjustment of each metamagic feat applied to it by one and improve its caster level by 2 (minimum total adjustment of +0, but individually they can still adjust by -1 each if you apply +0 metamagics to it. See the errata). Must-have for casters focusing on one spell.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-14, 10:43 PM
Arcane Thesis is PH2

Twin/Repeat are both Complete Arcane

edit: Ninja'd (and outclassed)

Toliudar
2011-02-14, 10:43 PM
Invisible Needle (Complete Mage) gives a +1 caster level on all force spells.

Chess435
2011-02-14, 10:48 PM
Awesome! Keep 'em coming!

My current setup for reference: Battle Sorcerer 3
Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Combat Casting (For Force Missile Mage entry)
Trait: Spellgifted: Evocation
Relevant Items: Arcanist's Gloves

Currently when I use my gloves, I'm effectively CL 6, with +10 vs spell resistance.

HunterOfJello
2011-02-14, 10:55 PM
There's a Pathfinder Metamagic feats that allows a spells damage dice to be increased by 5. You won't be able to take full advantage of this until level 19, but it could be useful. The metamagic increases the spell level by +1.

Chess435
2011-02-14, 10:57 PM
There's a Pathfinder Metamagic feats that allows a spells damage dice to be increased by 5. You won't be able to take full advantage of this until level 19, but it could be useful. The metamagic increases the spell level by +1.

With all the CL boosters I'm getting, probably much sooner than that. I'll probably run that one by my DM.

Telonius
2011-02-14, 10:58 PM
It does get Spell Resistance: yes, so anything that boosts your chances to overcome spell resistance (i.e. spell penetration, greater spell penetration) will help you.

I'm afb at the moment, but some internet searching is turning up a "Force Missile Mage." At least a few variations on that name seem to be homebrews, but I swear there was a PrC of a similar name that focused on force effects.

Chess435
2011-02-14, 11:01 PM
It does get Spell Resistance: yes, so anything that boosts your chances to overcome spell resistance (i.e. spell penetration, greater spell penetration) will help you.

I'm afb at the moment, but some internet searching is turning up a "Force Missile Mage." At least a few variations on that name seem to be homebrews, but I swear there was a PrC of a similar name that focused on force effects.

Two steps ahead of you there. :smallcool:

The force effects PrC is the Argent Savant, but I don't know if I should take it or not.

Welknair
2011-02-14, 11:04 PM
Warmage would be better for something like this, due to that ability of theirs boosting damage...

I think there was another class in Complete Arcana that could help... The Ardent? Or something like that? Sorry, afb right now.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-14, 11:51 PM
Empower, Maximize, and Quicken for starters.
I know there's more out there (I see people posting about them all the time), but since I almost never play casters, I don't know all of the cool ones.

Meh. Quicken is important. The rest there is optional.

Here's what you do. Pick up the following list: Fell Drain, Quicken, twin, repeat, ocular spell, split ray and arcane thesis. You may wish to pick up +0 MMs like Invisible spell to cat down the cost.

Learn either arcane fusion or greater arcane fusion. By combining all of the above, you should be able to cast a total of four twinned repeating split rayed fell drained magic missiles per turn.

If it doesn't die from that, It's immune to negative energy. Also, it will likely have taken enough damage from sheer volume of fire to be hurting pretty bad anyway.

gbprime
2011-02-15, 12:05 AM
If Dragonlance: Age of Mortals is available for your use, go with levels of War Mage PrC. It's a 5 level class that gets CHA bonus to AC for up to 3 allies (with you being one of those allies...), two free metamagic feats, and +3 points of damage PER DIE with damaging spells (+1 at each 1st, 3rd, 5th).

So at 10th level, not only is your magic missile damage hitting 5d4+20, but your fireball is looking at 10d6+30. And that's before Empowering. It's quality boom-mage cheese. =)

Tyndmyr
2011-02-15, 12:11 AM
If Dragonlance: Age of Mortals is available for your use, go with levels of War Mage PrC. It's a 5 level class that gets CHA bonus to AC for up to 3 allies (with you being one of those allies...), two free metamagic feats, and +3 points of damage PER DIE with damaging spells (+1 at each 1st, 3rd, 5th).

So at 10th level, not only is your magic missile damage hitting 5d4+20, but your fireball is looking at 10d6+30. And that's before Empowering. It's quality boom-mage cheese. =)

Oh, the actual Warmage base class is a solid option for starters too. Warmage edge gives you a little extra damage per cast, considering that at decent levels, you'll end up with a positive int mod simply from various stat bonuses. However, there are significant tradeoffs, like GAF no longer being on your spell list and the like. There are bonus sudden metamagic feats available, but they're late in the class, and are generally not synergistic with an arcane thesis build anyhow. Chaos shuffle them off if you take that route.

Tokuhara
2011-02-15, 12:11 AM
Dragon Magazine Compendium pg. 78-80 has just the PrC for you. Force Missle Mage. 5 levels for 8 Magic Missles. If you want a "rain of knives"-type attack, this is it. Use Spell Thematics to make them look like etheral daggers and use real metamagics to make them absolutely rediculous

Tyndmyr
2011-02-15, 12:12 AM
Dragon Magazine Compendium pg. 78-80 has just the PrC for you. Force Missle Mage. 5 levels for 8 Magic Missles. If you want a "rain of knives"-type attack, this is it. Use Spell Thematics to make them look like etheral daggers and use real metamagics to make them absolutely rediculous

Er, the OP already mentioned this class as his goal.

I suppose I should mention that SpC has a big brother to Magic Missile. If you can get your DM to allow FMM to work on it as well, you can increase the cheddar to ridiculous proportions.

The_Snark
2011-02-15, 12:20 AM
While Fell Drain is an excellent choice, I feel I should point out that it might not work like most of the above posters are assuming. It states that "any creature that is dealt damage gains a negative level." This is not terribly specific; it could mean that the creature gains a negative level each time it takes damage from the spell, or just that it gains a negative level for being damaged by the spell at all.

The latter is probably saner; it unfortunately makes the feat less useful with regards to damage-over-time spells, but it prevents it from being abused with certain spells, such as Magic Missile. Even without any other metamagic, 5 negative levels with a 3rd-level spell slot is pretty powerful; add Arcane Thesis, Quicken, Twin and so on, and you've started playing rocket tag (everything that isn't immune is dead).

Fell Drain is still a good choice if your DM rules this way, it's just that it's less about dealing tons of negative levels to a single creature, and more about weakening large numbers of creatures. Pick up Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, and Arcane Thesis (magic missile), and you can drop a nasty set of penalties on up to 5 enemies with a single spell.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-15, 12:25 AM
While Fell Drain is an excellent choice, I feel I should point out that it might not work like most of the above posters are assuming. It states that "any creature that is dealt damage gains a negative level." This is not terribly specific; it could mean that the creature gains a negative level each time it takes damage from the spell, or just that it gains a negative level for being damaged by the spell at all.

Read my post carefully. It isn't about one magic missile dealing damage repeatedly(and no, you don't take FD off each missile). It's about casting a total of 16 magic missiles on a single turn. Repeating, of course, so they get hit again next round.

Yes, your targets only lose a single level per missile. You are the force missile machine gunning god. You don't care.

Chess435
2011-02-15, 12:31 AM
*Grins evilly* MWAHAHAHA!!!! I shall slaughter many with this build idea! Thanks a bunch! Two last things: After I finish out force missile mage, I'll only be at 11th level. Any advice on where to go from there? Additionally, what items should I purchase with my hard-earned GP?

Eurus
2011-02-15, 12:33 AM
Dragon Magazine Compendium pg. 78-80 has just the PrC for you. Force Missle Mage. 5 levels for 8 Magic Missles. If you want a "rain of knives"-type attack, this is it. Use Spell Thematics to make them look like etheral daggers and use real metamagics to make them absolutely rediculous

And you'll be well on your way to replicating Touhou.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-15, 12:39 AM
*Grins evilly* MWAHAHAHA!!!! I shall slaughter many with this build idea! Thanks a bunch! Two last things: After I finish out force missile mage, I'll only be at 11th level. Any advice on where to go from there? Additionally, what items should I purchase with my hard-earned GP?

I would suggest a wand of Wings of Cover, a belt of battle, a handy haversack, a ring of counterspelling(loaded with the most dangerous dispel at the level), and so on. Good, general purpose caster gear.

This sort of build is hard on feat slots. So...look at PrCs that give you metamagic goodies and/or are really easy on feats to enter. Incantatrix is amazing, if it's your style. Loremaster is always decent.

Chambers
2011-02-15, 12:42 AM
I've done a magic missile sorcerer before. You'll want two spells from Complete Mage: Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion.

candycorn
2011-02-15, 12:48 AM
Meh. Quicken is important. The rest there is optional.

Here's what you do. Pick up the following list: Fell Drain, Quicken, twin, repeat, ocular spell, split ray and arcane thesis. You may wish to pick up +0 MMs like Invisible spell to cat down the cost.

Learn either arcane fusion or greater arcane fusion. By combining all of the above, you should be able to cast a total of four twinned repeating split rayed fell drained magic missiles per turn.

If it doesn't die from that, It's immune to negative energy. Also, it will likely have taken enough damage from sheer volume of fire to be hurting pretty bad anyway.

Magic Missile is not a Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect).

Split ray doesn't work.

Using Ocular Spell to turn it into one is questionable, since metamagic generally doesn't affect other metamagic.

Now, if you can twin, quicken, empower, and maximize, each twinned MM is dealing 135 damage. Using 4 of these per turn, you average 540 damage. At this point, the fell drain is... somewhat superfluous.

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 01:10 AM
*Grins evilly* MWAHAHAHA!!!! I shall slaughter many with this build idea! Thanks a bunch! Two last things: After I finish out force missile mage, I'll only be at 11th level. Any advice on where to go from there? Additionally, what items should I purchase with my hard-earned GP?

At level 11 I recommend Incantrix so that you can cheaply add Metamagic to your Magic Missile.

You could also go for Sacred Exorcist 1 at level 9, taking Extra Turning, then get DMM: Something at 12 (your last level of Force Missile Mage) and abuse Nightsticks.

For less cheese, Argent Savant helps out your [Force] spells.

hustlertwo
2011-02-15, 01:24 AM
Don't know much about metamagic, mostly work low level. But I did whip up an Evocation Domain wizard with Spellgifted and Arcanists' Gloves, allowing her to fire off two triple strength MM spells at level 1.

golentan
2011-02-15, 01:55 AM
If Dragonlance material is available, Reserves of Strength might be a good pick later on.

Makes you a bit of a glass cannon though. Stuns you, or inflicts damage if you're immune to stunning. Still, it removes level caps from spell descriptions, which means that at 20th level using the minimum reserves of strength boost you'd be doing 11 missiles *before* all the metamagic shenanigans. I used a similar thing for a build called the More Dakka Fire Cannon a while back.

TurtleKing
2011-02-15, 10:16 PM
Two spells from the Spell Compendium that are a greater version are Chain Missile and Force Missile. Chain Missile is long range, upto 10 missiles, and burst in a fireworks/ flak burst effect hitting secondary targets. Force Missile works the same as Magic Missile but deals 2d6 damage instead. So these two spells may be looked at as a fireball-like (Chain Missile) and a "Greater" (Force Missile).

Aspenor
2011-02-15, 10:20 PM
Residual Magic could be a nice feat. Fire off a heavily meta'd spell in one round, get the benefits of one of those meta's on a lower level casting of the spell.

Vistella
2011-02-16, 02:44 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0

everything you need to know to optimize magic missile :)

Bagger
2011-02-19, 03:59 PM
ehm maybe a bit late, but if you are warmage you get your int mod to damage for each dice you have, thats a way to add more damage

FMArthur
2011-02-19, 04:04 PM
ehm maybe a bit late, but if you are warmage you get your int mod to damage for each dice you have, thats a way to add more damage

I don't know where people get these ideas about Warmage Edge from since it very clearly, unambiguously states that it only applies once per casting.

ericgrau
2011-02-19, 04:05 PM
IIRC twinned empower is better than quickened + empowered b/c you get the empower twice and you only use 1 spell slot. Of course later you could twin + quicken.

The other key to remember about magic missile is its advantage over scorching ray or orb spells in spite of lower damage: It hits almost anything, even odd things like incorporeal, and is extremely unlikely to be resisted. Aim for strategic targets like those in the back line behind 2 layers of cover in melee with an ally, other casters, things with lots of DR or AC, etc. Buff yourself in the morning with see invisibility, extended via a lesser rod of extend spell. At higher levels get spell penetration for SR. Be that guy that just plain hits and focus on the nuisances.

senrath
2011-02-19, 04:19 PM
I don't know where people get these ideas about Warmage Edge from since it very clearly, unambiguously states that it only applies once per casting.

I think they're mixing up the War Mage and the Warmage.

CockroachTeaParty
2011-02-19, 04:24 PM
Guh... I didn't realize what the whole Arcane Fusion line did for such a focused caster... that's some scary spamming.

GoatBoy
2011-02-19, 04:29 PM
Polymorph yourself into a Spell Weaver (MM2 p187) and get its Spell Weaving extraordinary ability; that is, cast any combination of spells whose levels total up to six. Since a metamagick'd magic missile is still considered a 1st level spell...

This isn't my idea, and I believe the original creator was able to fire something like 176 missiles per round. But, yeah. Spell Weaving. Go nuts.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-19, 04:53 PM
Two steps ahead of you there. :smallcool:

The force effects PrC is the Argent Savant, but I don't know if I should take it or not.

There's also the Force missile mage, it gives you extra missiles and other useful stuff. You should be able to find it online or in the dragon compendium.
It gets the following:
Good will saves, other saves bad, wizard Bab.
1st level: An extra missile for every magic missile this may go above the normal limit, all magic missile spells are stilled automatically.
2nd level: You may change your magic missile spells to any energy you want, once per day you may cast shield as a swift action without using a spell slot at your highest CL.
3rd level:Your magic missiles gain a +2 bonus on checks to overcome SR and if casted against a shield then you may make a CL check against the targets caster level or DC 20 against a brooch.
4th level:If Magic Missile is casted against you it autumatically sent back at the caster, if the has this ability consult page 283 in the players handbook for the spell turning mishap.
5th level: An extra missile on magic missile.

You gain +1 level of existing casting class every level but 1.

Requirements:Concentration and spellcraft 9 ranks.
Ability to cast Magic Missile.
Combat Casting feat,

Skills:
2+ int modifier
Concentration, craft, knowledge arcana, Profession, Spellcraft, spot,
D8 HD

I do agree that Warmage would be a good base class to start from if you can get magic missile on the list.

Doc Roc
2011-02-19, 05:49 PM
You have summoned me. How high do you want your numbers?

Nerocite
2011-02-19, 06:04 PM
Archmage can get it as a SLA. Might bear looking into.

FMArthur
2011-02-19, 07:07 PM
You have summoned me. How high do you want your numbers?

Probably in the same damage range as a Power Attack brute with a multiplier or two going for him. Any higher and he'll just end up fighting creatures with bigger HP pools... and if his DM does this by adding Hit Dice, it makes them more dangerous and powerful in other respects as well, which the party will be worse off for.

gbprime
2011-02-19, 07:38 PM
I think they're mixing up the War Mage and the Warmage.

Yeah, Warmage (Complete Arcane) gives +INT (or more) damage once per casting, or once per round for continuing damage spells.

War Mage (Dragonlance: Age of Mortals) gives +1 to +3 damage PER DIE of damage done.

Add them together for damage-over-time fun! Warmage 9 with 5 levels of War Mage PrC, a 16 INT, and Warmage Edge. A lowly Melf's Acid Arrow does 2d4+12 per round for 5 rounds. And a Blade Barrier cranks out 13d6+45.

Rod of Maximize, anyone?

Doc Roc
2011-02-19, 08:16 PM
Probably in the same damage range as a Power Attack brute with a multiplier or two going for him. Any higher and he'll just end up fighting creatures with bigger HP pools... and if his DM does this by adding Hit Dice, it makes them more dangerous and powerful in other respects as well, which the party will be worse off for.

Sage. I'm afb at the moment, but this I can do.

Paul H
2011-02-22, 08:06 PM
Hi

Pity you took Sorceror. Warmage adds Int mod to first damage dice per spell. EG. CL 9, Int 16, so 5D4+8.

Not sure about the PrC you mentioned, but Agent Savant adds 2 dam per missile. Add Empower Spell, and some way to ignore the delay in casting metamagiced spells from spont casters.

Thanks
Paul H

Tyndmyr
2011-02-22, 09:29 PM
I don't know where people get these ideas about Warmage Edge from since it very clearly, unambiguously states that it only applies once per casting.

It even uses Magic Missile as the example spell. It's remarkably hard to miss.

That said, when you're casting eight magic missiles a round, even a couple damage on each cast adds up to a significant amount.

Honestly, I wouldn't even put all my Oomph into maxing out magic missile. Once you can reliably do a few hundred damage per cast with no real way for anyone to evade it...not to mention the negative levels....further numbers are mostly pointless.

So, I'd take time out for a dip into Sand Shaper and the like. The delay in time can be solved via trading off your familiar for it. It's an ACF in Phb 2, IIRC. Better than using feats, since metamagic tends to eat those like candy.

jaybird
2011-11-15, 11:11 PM
Try to get Spell Perfection and Spell Specialization from Pathfinder - I think it's Spell Perfection that doubles any numerical modifier you get to a spell from feats. Intensify spell +5d6? That goes up to +10d6. Twin Spell let you cast a spell "twice"? Yep, you double "twice", and get "four times". Arcane Thesis and Spell Specialization give you +2 to CL each? Now it's +4 to CL each. Spell Penetration +1 against SR? Say hello to a total of +4 against SR if you have both feats.

It's a blaster's wet dream.

RedWarlock
2011-11-16, 04:39 AM
Just to check, I thought core rules say Sorcerers can't Quicken? Spontaneous metamagic and all that? (Is that an often-ignored rule?) Which would apply to Warmages as well, thus the sudden metamagics in CA...

nedz
2011-11-16, 04:28 PM
I'm guessing that you may be meeting a few people with Shield spells. You might want some other trick up your sleave when that happens.

Treblain
2011-11-17, 12:21 AM
Just to check, I thought core rules say Sorcerers can't Quicken? Spontaneous metamagic and all that? (Is that an often-ignored rule?) Which would apply to Warmages as well, thus the sudden metamagics in CA...

There are feats and ACFs that solve that for sorcerers. I don't know about warmages.

Teron
2011-11-17, 12:52 AM
Awesome! Keep 'em coming!

My current setup for reference: Battle Sorcerer 3
Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Combat Casting (For Force Missile Mage entry)
Trait: Spellgifted: Evocation
Relevant Items: Arcanist's Gloves

Currently when I use my gloves, I'm effectively CL 6, with +10 vs spell resistance.

I'd advise against going battle sorcerer. For one thing, with every level you take in a PrC, you'll be suffering its downsides with nothing to show for it. For another, what it gives you just isn't very good.

Fortuna
2011-11-17, 12:53 AM
There's a feat they can get, from Complete Arcane IIRC.

nedz
2011-11-17, 04:15 PM
There's a feat they can get, from Complete Arcane IIRC.
Arcane Preparation - which allows Sorcerors to Prepare Spells.
Sudden Quicken - but the Pre-Reqs are rediculous

There's the Metamagic specialist ACF from PH2 which allows you to use metamagic without extending the casting time. This is instead of a familier, but is Int Mod times per day.

Rapid Spell from Complete Divine specifically cannot do this.

Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage does allow you to do this.

Fortuna
2011-11-17, 06:26 PM
Complete Mage, that was it. That's the one that I meant.

theMycon
2011-11-17, 07:32 PM
Twin Spell is a +4 metamagic from Complete Arcane. It is completely redundant in the face of Quicken Spell

Pardon my ignorance, but why isn't it the other way around?

I would think "+4 metamagic to cast this spell twice" would be strictly better than "+4 metamagic to case this spell and another one, using another spell slot", especially when the goal is spamming a single spell. But I've never played a full caster in a game that lets the player access non-core books ('cause where's the fun in optimizing an already powerful class?).

Cerlis
2011-11-17, 08:18 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but why isn't it the other way around?

I would think "+4 metamagic to cast this spell twice" would be strictly better than "+4 metamagic to case this spell and another one, using another spell slot", especially when the goal is spamming a single spell. But I've never played a full caster in a game that lets the player access non-core books ('cause where's the fun in optimizing an already powerful class?).

im guessing because "power wizard" builds OPness always talk about high level, and at that point you usually never worry about running out of spell slots

one is variety, one is efficiency.

One you get 2 spells for one, another you get two different spells. also point in fact that with quicken 1 spell is highest level possible, and one is lower level (since it has to be 4 lvls lower than you can cast) while with twin spell both are 4 lvls lower. So (and the "math" in this is completely wrong), in one case you get to cast two fireballs (which cap at 10 dice), or you could spend your time casting meteor swarm (i believe stronger than 2 fireballs) and Wall of force.