Another Pun-Pun? Almost. A Challenge to the Playground

[CycloneJoker]

Okay, I just discovered one of coolest and oddest things ever. Someone help me break it. This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030727a). I want someone to make the stolen things permanent.

Any thoughts?

[tuesdayscoming]

I like the creature concept, but I'm confused as to the mechanics of it.

"When a mindstealer drone absorbs the abilities of multiple creatures, it adds either the abilities of the last creature it has absorbed or from the last form it has used, whichever is applicable."

How exactly do you make sense of that last sentence?

[CycloneJoker]

I like the creature concept, but I'm confused as to the mechanics of it.

"When a mindstealer drone absorbs the abilities of multiple creatures, it adds either the abilities of the last creature it has absorbed or from the last form it has used, whichever is applicable."

How exactly do you make sense of that last sentence?

I'd say it adds the absorbed abilities, and any form-based abilities of the form it was in, to its current set of abilities, which is odd, but how it looks, which is why I thought Pun-Pun.

[tuesdayscoming]

What confused me, though, was the bit about multiple creatures. It seems to me that you can only have one set of abilities at once, and that as soon as you take the abilities of a new creature, you permanently (and irrevocably) lose access to those of your previously adopted form.

That and the explicit one-month ceiling makes this a very flavorful, though far from unstoppable creature. I know of nothing that will make the abilities gained permanent, but here's to hoping that someone out there does!

[CycloneJoker]

What confused me, though, was the bit about multiple creatures. It seems to me that you can only have one set of abilities at once, and that as soon as you take the abilities of a new creature, you permanently (and irrevocably) lose access to those of your previously adopted form.

That and the explicit one-month ceiling makes this a very flavorful, though far from unstoppable creature. I know of nothing that will make the abilities gained permanent, but here's to hoping that someone out there does!

So you think that, you get the ability to change shape, and you gain the ability of what you change shape to, until you shape change again?

[Flickerdart]

How exactly is the Mindstealer Master CR20 anyway? It has no spells, completely awful AC and its only effective means of attack only does two negative levels per round at a level everyone's had Death Ward up for years.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm. I see many possible 'slploits from PaOing into a mindstealer drone. Absorb all the abilities from something awesome, and still be a spellcaster or the like.

I wonder if you could make it work for entry into beholder mage...

[Tvtyrant]

If it took a Thrallherds abilities would the thralls it takes be permanent? I don't know Thrallherd that well, but I could see using this with leadership-Thrallherd cohort and steal their abilities to get higher HD for herding.

[CycloneJoker]

How exactly is the Mindstealer Master CR20 anyway? It has no spells, completely awful AC and its only effective means of attack only does two negative levels per round at a level everyone's had Death Ward up for years.
The fact that it can crap out 20 minions with negative levels, and knows everything? I dunno, didn't right it.

Hmm. I see many possible 'slploits from PaOing into a mindstealer drone. Absorb all the abilities from something awesome, and still be a spellcaster or the like.

I wonder if you could make it work for entry into beholder mage...
But it still loses them after a month, which is what I'm trying to figure out how to get around.

If it took a Thrallherds abilities would the thralls it takes be permanent? I don't know Thrallherd that well, but I could see using this with leadership-Thrallherd cohort and steal their abilities to get higher HD for herding.

I would assume that the minions are no longer drawn by whatever psychic call there is, and just wander off when it runs out of time.

[Tyndmyr]

Don't see offhand why it would be, but haven't checked into it in detail.

Hmm. How about some method of duplicating yourself, then absorbing the copy? Theoretically, that should reset the clock. I need to go reread schism to see if it works out. At a minimum, Ice assassin should. Obviously, create clone under controlled conditions.

[CycloneJoker]

Am I reading it wrong, or would Fusion reset them as seperate abilities, and let you keep them, if you could keep Fusion permanent?

If so, I need to figure out how to make Fusion permanent.

What do you not see? Do you think you'd keep the abilities if you de-PoA'd?

[Tyndmyr]

That's a tough one. On the one hand, Change Shape indicates that shifting shapes does not seem to impact the abilities. Presumably, if you made a copy of yourself, polymorphed it into your form, then grabbed it's memories/abilities, you would be able to use the abilities while in your new form thanks to the ability text in Change Shape.

Looking closer, Im seeing all the abilities as Su...which means PaO alone isn't going to help. IIRC, there's a feat for that, though. Painful, given that you probably want all four abilities. The rest are useless without energy drain, after all.

Basically, the big flaw in the ointment is this line: "In effect, the drone functions as the victim except that it retains its own special attacks and special qualities."

[NichG]

You could use quintessence and have one of these things as a cohort or something, and just pull it out when you need it. One month worth of rounds is easily a full adventuring career.

[CycloneJoker]

That's a tough one. On the one hand, Change Shape indicates that shifting shapes does not seem to impact the abilities. Presumably, if you made a copy of yourself, polymorphed it into your form, then grabbed it's memories/abilities, you would be able to use the abilities while in your new form thanks to the ability text in Change Shape.

Looking closer, Im seeing all the abilities as Su...which means PaO alone isn't going to help. IIRC, there's a feat for that, though. Painful, given that you probably want all four abilities. The rest are useless without energy drain, after all.

Basically, the big flaw in the ointment is this line: "In effect, the drone functions as the victim except that it retains its own special attacks and special qualities."

I know how to get the powers! Metamorphic Transfer! Still, there is the issue of the time limit.

[CycloneJoker]

You could use quintessence and have one of these things as a cohort or something, and just pull it out when you need it. One month worth of rounds is easily a full adventuring career.

No, the intent is to use it to get all the abilities I want, sort of a mini-Pun-Pun.

[RndmNumGen]

You could use the True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm)power to take over a Mindstealer Master's body, then make your own drones and gorge yourself on their memories. Since you would be a master and not a drone, they wouldn't fade after a month.

[Tyndmyr]

You can keep any given set of abilities effectively infinitely by the clone and drain trick.

The question is then how to give either you or another target additional abilities. Any method of doing that is a win. This should, in theory, include anything obtainable by levels, since you can arrange ways of funneling xp to your clone.

Then, you just need a way to lose hd. You get the power based on the memories, and via a separate ability from the hit die. In this way, you can keep your ECL static while gaining additional abilities.

[tuesdayscoming]

You could use the [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm"]Since you would be a master and not a drone, they wouldn't fade after a month.

"Drone Drain (Su): A mindstealer master can absorb a drone into its body and then absorb all the drone's stolen memories (but not absorbed abilities). This process takes 1 minute and returns the drone to its base state. Masters do not gain class levels or class abilities from this drain; they gain only memories."

[tuesdayscoming]

Sorry if my posts so far have done nothing but cast doubt on the viability of this guy. As I said earlier, I think its a lovely idea and would really love to see something viable come out of this discussion. I'd just also love it to be completely legal. If anything comes to mind, I'll put it up, bit I fear that my opt-fu might be somewhat inadequate.

Edit: What about your everyday Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) abuse? While under its effects, don't you basically exist outside of time? As a Mindstealer Master, have an early drone 'become' a series of increasingly powerful creatures, working up to an arcane spellcaster (sorc to take advantage of the +Cha?) capable of casting Astral Projection. Then have it send you both to the Astral Plane, cast the spell again while there, and effectively come back to the Material.

Then all we have to do is find a way to simultaneously manifest the abilities of multiple different creatures and we'd be golden, no?. Granted, this is a 9th level spell. You could almost accomplish the same thing by simply having a second drone steal the memories/abilities of the first right before they expire.

[meschlum]

Easy way to pick up multiple abilities: Eat other Drones after they've fed.

Next!

[term1nally s1ck]

Ok, I'm iffy on how that last line works, but it *seems* to say that those abilties are one-only. That means we not only need a way to make them permanent, we need a way to dis-connect them from the change shape and drain abilities.

As a starter, we can get into its body with any of the mind switch tricks. True Mind Switch, the seed trick, anything.

First off, the Polymorph line will not remove it's current Su abilities, so the 4 key tricks will be kept no matter what messing about you do.

So, grab a form with Su abilities you like.

Take Assume Su ability, specifying the ability you want.

Find a thing that has the ability to take other forms magically. Doesn't matter how, you just need that pre-req so you can Psychic Reformation them an Assume Su ability of the same type you have.

PaO them into you. They get the Ex special attacks, the Su ability you want, but NOT the change shape that fuels it, so it's disconnected from that now, and isn't gonna wear off.

PaO you into them. They're you, so it's Permanent. You now gain that ability disconnected from your change shape. Now PaO yourself into yourself, and you retain all Su abilities of your base form, which includes the ability you had before....which is now permanent.

Using Psy Ref to swap your Assume Su Ability lets you do this as many times as you wish.



Nice find, I'd never seen that thing before. Can't get Ex abilities unless you can convince the DM that Master Transmogrifist lets you take yourself as a favored form, and Change Shape doesn't mess that up which by RAW it probably does, but any and all Su abilities might be enough.

[CycloneJoker]

"Drone Drain (Su): A mindstealer master can absorb a drone into its body and then absorb all the drone's stolen memories (but not absorbed abilities). This process takes 1 minute and returns the drone to its base state. Masters do not gain class levels or class abilities from this drain; they gain only memories."
Yep.

Sorry if my posts so far have done nothing but cast doubt on the viability of this guy. As I said earlier, I think its a lovely idea and would really love to see something viable come out of this discussion. I'd just also love it to be completely legal. If anything comes to mind, I'll put it up, bit I fear that my opt-fu might be somewhat inadequate.

Edit: What about your everyday Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) abuse? While under its effects, don't you basically exist outside of time? As a Mindstealer Master, have an early drone 'become' a series of increasingly powerful creatures, working up to an arcane spellcaster (sorc to take advantage of the +Cha?) capable of casting Astral Projection. Then have it send you both to the Astral Plane, cast the spell again while there, and effectively come back to the Material.

Then all we have to do is find a way to simultaneously manifest the abilities of multiple different creatures and we'd be golden, no?. Granted, this is a 9th level spell. You could almost accomplish the same thing by simply having a second drone steal the memories/abilities of the first right before they expire.
The difficulty is it being a ninth-level spell, but that might work. I'd need to double check the spell.

Easy way to pick up multiple abilities: Eat other Drones after they've fed.

Next!
The point was to do it permanently with little maintenance.

Ok, I'm iffy on how that last line works, but it *seems* to say that those abilties are one-only. That means we not only need a way to make them permanent, we need a way to dis-connect them from the change shape and drain abilities.

As a starter, we can get into its body with any of the mind switch tricks. True Mind Switch, the seed trick, anything.

First off, the Polymorph line will not remove it's current Su abilities, so the 4 key tricks will be kept no matter what messing about you do.

So, grab a form with Su abilities you like.

Take Assume Su ability, specifying the ability you want.

Find a thing that has the ability to take other forms magically. Doesn't matter how, you just need that pre-req so you can Psychic Reformation them an Assume Su ability of the same type you have.

PaO them into you. They get the Ex special attacks, the Su ability you want, but NOT the change shape that fuels it, so it's disconnected from that now, and isn't gonna wear off.

PaO you into them. They're you, so it's Permanent. You now gain that ability disconnected from your change shape. Now PaO yourself into yourself, and you retain all Su abilities of your base form, which includes the ability you had before....which is now permanent.

Using Psy Ref to swap your Assume Su Ability lets you do this as many times as you wish.



Nice find, I'd never seen that thing before. Can't get Ex abilities unless you can convince the DM that Master Transmogrifist lets you take yourself as a favored form, and Change Shape doesn't mess that up which by RAW it probably does, but any and all Su abilities might be enough.

That is BRILLIANT! Wow, okay, just one issue. Are the Drone's stolen abilities added on to the Assume thing, or do they remain separate? It looks like you assume they remain separate.

Also, since they keep their SU abilities, wouldn't you also get their SUs? Anyways, that looks like it works without this evil little thing.

[dextercorvia]

The problem with using Metamorphic Transfer is the 3/day limit. It would take forever to knock anything out, steal it's memories and then steal it's abilities. You are going to need Shapechange (UMD a scroll first) and then Steal the ability to Shapechange as a SLA from something with it.

[term1nally s1ck]

That is BRILLIANT! Wow, okay, just one issue. Are the Drone's stolen abilities added on to the Assume thing, or do they remain separate? It looks like you assume they remain separate.

Also, since they keep their SU abilities, wouldn't you also get their SUs? Anyways, that looks like it works without this evil little thing.

Assume Su ability requires you to pick 1 ability of one creature, by the stricter reading. Just pick the one you want, and you won't give them the change shape and company that are the cause of ths duration.

The reason you need the drone is that you must have the ability on your 'base form' for you to retain it after Psy Refing away that particular Assume Su ability. What this trick does is it separates the ability you want from the Change Shape ability, without ever losing either on your base form, so you retain it from then on.

[nedz]

You can extend a Drone's abilities beyond a month by having a fresh Drone drain it. Basically you can recycle useful Drones, sure they die - but you can just make a new one.

[DragonSinged]

What confused me, though, was the bit about multiple creatures. It seems to me that you can only have one set of abilities at once, and that as soon as you take the abilities of a new creature, you permanently (and irrevocably) lose access to those of your previously adopted form.

That and the explicit one-month ceiling makes this a very flavorful, though far from unstoppable creature. I know of nothing that will make the abilities gained permanent, but here's to hoping that someone out there does!

By my reading of it, you can change between the forms of anything you've drained within one month of having drained it, but you only add the statistics to your base drone form of the creature whose physical form you last shapechanged into.

That's kind of complicated sounding, so let me give an example.


Base drone = drone in slime form.
X drone = drone shapechanged into X.


Base drone drains a cat of all memories. Base drone adds cats "Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonus, skills, and feats" to its Base drone slime form.

Base drone can now also become Cat drone.

Cat drone finds a sleeping human, drains that human of all memories.

Cat drone can now become Human drone and Base drone.

Cat drone becomes Human drone.

Base drone adds humans Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonus, skills, and feats to its Base drone form, removes previously mentioned cat bonuses from its Base drone form.

Until a month has passed from absorbing the cats memories, the drone can still shapechange into either the cat or the human, and whichever it has most recently shapechanged into gets its abilities added to its base form.


Does that make sense?

[term1nally s1ck]

By my reading of it, you can change between the forms of anything you've drained within one month of having drained it, but you only add the statistics to your base drone form of the creature whose physical form you last shapechanged into.

That's kind of complicated sounding, so let me give an example.


Base drone = drone in slime form.
X drone = drone shapechanged into X.


Base drone drains a cat of all memories. Base drone adds cats "Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonus, skills, and feats" to its Base drone slime form.

Base drone can now also become Cat drone.

Cat drone finds a sleeping human, drains that human of all memories.

Cat drone can now become Human drone and Base drone.

Cat drone becomes Human drone.

Base drone adds humans Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonus, skills, and feats to its Base drone form, removes previously mentioned cat bonuses from its Base drone form.

Until a month has passed from absorbing the cats memories, the drone can still shapechange into either the cat or the human, and whichever it has most recently shapechanged into gets its abilities added to its base form.


Does that make sense?

That sounds exactly right, and is the first reading that makes that wording make sense.

[DragonSinged]

That being said, this seems like a very cool monster to me, and I could easily see using the Mindstealer Master as a BBEG BBNG, except, as someone mentioned before, can anyone figure out why it is listed as Challenge Rating 20?

The only reason I can think of is that it's supposed to be really fragging smart, and I guess the intent is for the GM to play it very intelligently, maybe give it a bunch of equipment, and as it mentions, give it plenty of defenses...

Also, it definitely seems like the sort of thing where you could have it start out seeming fairly nefarious and all, but then reveal that it only took what actions were necessary for it to survive - Only completely draining people that were already on their deathbeds, trying to take as little from each individual as it could, things like that... But running into difficulties with its Int. 12 drones, who maybe occasionally appraised a situation wrong, fully drained someone that they shouldn't have, things like that.

But hey, the Master needs to feed at least once a week in order to survive, what choice does it have but to work with the tools that it's got? It isn't evil, after all.

So yeah, pull the whole "Moral Twist" thing on the players with it. Could make for some interesting RPs.


EDIT:
If I weren't running an evil campaign, I'd use this in my current game. :smalltongue: