1st level charater min/max tips

[esingh]

I was wondering is there any way of min/maxing a 1st level thanks:smallbiggrin:

[esingh]

D&D 3.5
:smallbiggrin:

[herrhauptmann]

In short: Yes.

Now how about a little more detail in order to get better answers...

edit:
And really no purpose to double posting like that, just edit your old post. Pretty sure it's in the forum rules.

[CycloneJoker]

Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer 1. Done.

[Fox Box Socks]

Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer 1.
Don't start :smallamused:

All I can really say is "Be Human", if only because they're head and shoulders above just about every other race at just about everything.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

What do you want to min/max for? You can build a pretty sweet grappling Wizard at that level, or play at being Batman (with Grease, Color Spray, etc.).

Do you have flaws/point-buy/build goals in mind, or is this more an open question?

Edit:

All I can really say is "Be Human", if only because they're head and shoulders above just about every other race at just about everything.

Except Desert Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrakes at being Sorcerers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're doing it wrong. It's Venerable Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. That gets proficiency in any light or one-handed martial weapon, proficiency and weapon focus in any melee martial weapon, 10+Con HP (1d8+2+Con max at 1st), Eschew Materials and Scribe Scroll for free, and best of all 3rd level Wizard spellcasting ability. Your spells are written on your scales (referred to as a spellhoard) so there's no risk of losing a spellbook and no limit to the number of pages you have available. You can scribe the same spell multiple times, each spell copy in your spellhoard can be cast directly as though from a scroll which erases that one copy, one or more spell copies can be sacrificed from your spellhoard to substitute costly material components or XP costs of your spells.

Otherwise, go Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls. Make sure your character plus his carried gear weighs at least five hundred pounds. Manifest Expansion to become large size (standard action), spend a move action to run up a wall 10 ft. above your intended target and jump down onto up to four opponents. You take no damage for jumping down, they each take falling object damage with no requirement of an attack roll or allowance for a saving throw... An object weighing 2,000 pounds falling at least ten feet deals 20d6 damage. Get Overchannel and Talented if Human so its duration is two rounds. On the second round you can spend two move-actions to jump down onto opponents two more times. At second level you can augment it to last 30 minutes (per errata).

[Welknair]

A good place to start is flaws from UA or some of the more balanced homebrew ones from the internet. You can take minuses to things that will be less useful to you in return for bonus feats of your choosing. Min/maxing.

[dextercorvia]

Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with 20 Int, 1 Flaw, Alacritous Cogitation, and Versatile Spellcaster gets 2 9th; 1ea 8th, 7th, 6th; 2ea 5th, 6th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3 1st level spells. Your HP are a little lower than Biffoniacus_Furiou's build, but maybe you can find a spell to help with that.

[Tyndmyr]

I was wondering is there any way of min/maxing a 1st level thanks:smallbiggrin:

Yup.

Step 1: Read about flaws. They are your best friend for creating crazy level 1 characters.

Step 2: Find ways to instantly kill other characters as a standard action. Fell Drained Sonic Snap is good. Power Word: Pain is excellent, if a bit slow for my tastes. Sudden maximize mostly fixes that, though.

Step 3: Find some way to not die at least once. Finding a creative way to access level 2 spells and grabbing Wings of Cover works. Hiding behind a tower shield may work. A ridiculous hide check often works. Abrupt Jaunt is probably the best bet.

Step 4: ???

Step 5: profit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with 20 Int, 1 Flaw, Alacritous Cogitation, and Versatile Spellcaster gets 2 9th; 1ea 8th, 7th, 6th; 2ea 5th, 6th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3 1st level spells. Your HP are a little lower than Biffoniacus_Furiou's build, but maybe you can find a spell to help with that.

Domain Wizard trades specialization for the domain ability. Elf Wizard trades specialization for generalist wizardry. Just like a specialist conjurer cannot trade his familiar for both abrupt jaunt and rapid summoning, your build cannot trade specialization for both domain wizard and generalist wizardry.

[The Rabbler]

"Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu..."

[dextercorvia]

Domain Wizard trades specialization for the domain ability. Elf Wizard trades specialization for generalist wizardry. Just like a specialist conjurer cannot trade his familiar for both abrupt jaunt and rapid summoning, your build cannot trade specialization for both domain wizard and generalist wizardry.

It's not RAI, but neither is your suggestion. The RAW is debatable, but the Domain Variant doesn't trade anything. He can not also be a specialist, but that isn't quite the same.

If it can be shown to be an absolute no go, then a 2nd flaw gets a Bloodline feat, which gets the automatic spells known feature necessary to get up to 5th level spells. Then you retrain Alacritous Cogitation to Power in the Blood. (Versatile Spellcaster will accept itself as a prereq.) Power in the Blood gets an extra slot a the highest level you can cast (only for your Bloodline), so that gets you back to 9th level. You miss out on 6th-8th level spells with that method until you can get some bonus spells.

The Bloodline spell lists are rather gimped, so you will be investing quite heavily in scrolls.

[borg286]

It also matters how far you predict to go.
If you're only doing level 1, then there's no reason preparing for metamagic.
There's uber optimization (kobold sorcerer and such)
There's medium optimization: CodZilla
There's fair optimization: human warblade, either reach focused or charge focused.

If you want item optimization there's my sheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqLk5_LGDVGIdEp2RVVjamNsYlNEQjhSclZ3ektRU FE&hl=en&authkey=CKOgzd0F)
Flaws need to be approved by DM, as does Tome of Battle. If he is outlawing ToB but allowing and tier 1 class(druid, cleric, wizard, artificer, archevist, psion) then you need to show him the light.

[Fox Box Socks]

Otherwise, go Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls. Make sure your character plus his carried gear weighs at least five hundred pounds. Manifest Expansion to become large size (standard action), spend a move action to run up a wall 10 ft. above your intended target and jump down onto up to four opponents. You take no damage for jumping down, they each take falling object damage with no requirement of an attack roll or allowance for a saving throw... An object weighing 2,000 pounds falling at least ten feet deals 20d6 damage. Get Overchannel and Talented if Human so its duration is two rounds. On the second round you can spend two move-actions to jump down onto opponents two more times. At second level you can augment it to last 30 minutes (per errata).
This is the greatest thing I've ever heard.

The only thing it needs is a level of Monk so you can make flying elbow drops.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You're doing it wrong. It's Venerable Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. That gets proficiency in any light or one-handed martial weapon, proficiency and weapon focus in any melee martial weapon, 10+Con HP (1d8+2+Con max at 1st), Eschew Materials and Scribe Scroll for free, and best of all 3rd level Wizard spellcasting ability. Your spells are written on your scales (referred to as a spellhoard) so there's no risk of losing a spellbook and no limit to the number of pages you have available. You can scribe the same spell multiple times, each spell copy in your spellhoard can be cast directly as though from a scroll which erases that one copy, one or more spell copies can be sacrificed from your spellhoard to substitute costly material components or XP costs of your spells.

Otherwise, go Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls. Make sure your character plus his carried gear weighs at least five hundred pounds. Manifest Expansion to become large size (standard action), spend a move action to run up a wall 10 ft. above your intended target and jump down onto up to four opponents. You take no damage for jumping down, they each take falling object damage with no requirement of an attack roll or allowance for a saving throw... An object weighing 2,000 pounds falling at least ten feet deals 20d6 damage. Get Overchannel and Talented if Human so its duration is two rounds. On the second round you can spend two move-actions to jump down onto opponents two more times. At second level you can augment it to last 30 minutes (per errata).

Where do I find Spellhoarding?

[Tvtyrant]

Druid 1, cast shillelagh is the most out of the box way to do it; 2d6 damage and you can use it with TWF to get 4d6 at level 1 (low hit chance using it with both hands unless you devote yourself to it). Or just cast entangle :P

Also if I remember correctly someone figured out how to use sudden Heighten and a fire reserve feat on a sorc to do a similar amount with a higher hit chance. Only get one shot though...

Alternatively you could take a Barbarian, give it a two hander and just pump strength and take Power Attack and Cleave to do damage; charge the first turn and use PA with the hopes of hitting. If you hit chances are really good you drop it and can cleave the next one, what with your 2d6+6 damage without PA and more like 2d6+8 with it. In fact play a Warforged to get exhaustion immunity and take the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian variant to gain an extra attack at level 1. Your to hit goes down, but you would get 4d6+12 a turn roughly. Not bad at level 1.

[Frog Dragon]

Dragons of Eberron. It's a sovereign archetype.

[Gavinfoxx]

LOREDRAKE is in Dragons of Eberron

SPELLHOARDING is in Dragon Magazine # 313, I believe.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's also going Strongheart Water Halfling Unseelie Fey Dragonfire Adept with Flyby Attack and Flyby Breath from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. That can use an infinite number of 1d6 fire breath attacks per round, as long as he doesn't do anything else but move that round.

[Aharon]

Spellhoarding is a bit debatable, though, since
a) it's a psychosis that can be cured by extensive stays in antimagic fields, which might show up in games as a challenge.

and more importantly
b) it's a template without a listed LA-adjustment, which I believe is the same as LA -

How does the Alacritous Cogitation/Versatile Spellcaster combination work?

[Coidzor]

and here I thought that soulmeld that let one do a bunch of acid damage as a ranged touch attack was nice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellhoarding is a bit debatable, though, since
a) it's a psychosis that can be cured by extensive stays in antimagic fields, which might show up in games as a challenge.

and more importantly
b) it's a template without a listed LA-adjustment, which I believe is the same as LA -

How does the Alacritous Cogitation/Versatile Spellcaster combination work?

a) All you have to do is voluntarily fail the wisdom check, and there's no chance you can be cured until your wisdom score increases.

b) It's not a question of whether or not it's a playable template, the only qualifying factor is if the character can acquire the disorder. If yes, then he gets the template regardless. Since it doesn't specify that a dragon who gains the template can no longer be a PC, it must be assumed that it can. Any character can catch a disease or a mental disorder, it just so happens that this one has at least as many benefits as it does drawbacks.


Alacritous Cogitation (CM) lets you leave a spell slot open to spontaneously cast a spell of equal or lower level, thus fulfilling the prerequisite of Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Domain Wizard (UA) gains his Domain spells as spells known immediately upon being able to cast them, and also gains one additional spell slot of each level he can cast which is reserved for his domain spell. Elf Wizard 1 gets Generalist Wizardry, which grants an additional spell slot of the highest level you can currently cast. I think it goes something like this:
Spend two 1st slots to cast a 2nd level spell;
Gain a 2nd level domain slot, Generalist grants 2nd level slot;
Spend two 2nd slots to cast a 3rd level spell;
Gain a 3rd level domain slot, Generalist grants 3rd level slot;
Spend two 3rd slots to cast a 4th level spell;
Repeat as above until 9th level spell slots are acquired. You have a domain spell slot of 1st-9th level, Generalist grants a 9th level slot, plus you get any bonus spell slots for a high Int score. Your caster level is only 1st, but you can cast 9th level spells.

[Escheton]

A human factotem with improved trip and a guisarme.

[Aharon]

@a)
Nice, I knew you can voluntarily fail saves, but I didn't know you can voluntarily fail checks. Could you provide a source? I don't want to dig through my whole library for that rule, and it might be useful in other situations.
@b)
So you allow third level stained glass half-golems, too?

@Alacritous Cogitation & Domain
I though you needed a minimum CL to cast spells of a certain level, dependent on the class you gain these spells from?
=>

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

[linebackeru]

Alacritous Cogitation (CM) lets you leave a spell slot open to spontaneously cast a spell of equal or lower level, thus fulfilling the prerequisite of Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Domain Wizard (UA) gains his Domain spells as spells known immediately upon being able to cast them, and also gains one additional spell slot of each level he can cast which is reserved for his domain spell. Elf Wizard 1 gets Generalist Wizardry, which grants an additional spell slot of the highest level you can currently cast. I think it goes something like this:
Spend two 1st slots to cast a 2nd level spell;
Gain a 2nd level domain slot, Generalist grants 2nd level slot;
Spend two 2nd slots to cast a 3rd level spell;
Gain a 3rd level domain slot, Generalist grants 3rd level slot;
Spend two 3rd slots to cast a 4th level spell;
Repeat as above until 9th level spell slots are acquired. You have a domain spell slot of 1st-9th level, Generalist grants a 9th level slot, plus you get any bonus spell slots for a high Int score. Your caster level is only 1st, but you can cast 9th level spells.

Maybe I missed it, but how do you spend two slots of Level X to get a slot of Level X+1?

[Curmudgeon]

Otherwise, go Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls. Make sure your character plus his carried gear weighs at least five hundred pounds. Manifest Expansion to become large size (standard action), spend a move action to run up a wall 10 ft. above your intended target and jump down onto up to four opponents. You take no damage for jumping down, they each take falling object damage with no requirement of an attack roll or allowance for a saving throw...
That bolded part is nonsense. Your idea of automatic hits isn't in the rules. Instead, here's how you go about this.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. So you'd need to figure out the size of your expanded self relative to the largest weapon you can throw proficiently, and your attack roll is the sum of the following:

your normal ranged AB
-2 * (number of size categories larger than maximum thrown weapon size)
-4 improvised weapon penalty
-2 for 10' range
That's how it's done, absent some class ability like Guided Smart Bomb Body Attack (Ex).

[Aharon]

Also, to contribute:
(I didn't build it, I hope Phaedrus won't mind if I link it)
Lyle the Lame (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=92225)

[dextercorvia]

@Alacritous Cogitation & Domain
I though you needed a minimum CL to cast spells of a certain level, dependent on the class you gain these spells from?
=>

That is only for voluntarily lowering your CL. There are several places that say you can only gain this spell/day (or slot) if you have sufficient class level to cast spells of that spells. That's why it takes Elven Generalist. They get a class ability to cast a spell at the highest level spell they can cast (without regard to how they came to be able to cast a spell of that level in the first place). Now you have the class ability to cast 9th level spells which means 8th and lower, too. So, all of those clauses like in the bonus spells for high ability score, etc., kick in.


Maybe I missed it, but how do you spend two slots of Level X to get a slot of Level X+1?

That is exactly what Versatile Spellcaster lets you do.

My favorite "build" with this (it actually makes it seem less busted and more fun) is to take levels of Duskblade first. Duskblade1/EDWizard4/DragonDisciple10 taking Arcane Strike at 6th.

Do note that no matter what you do, it runs out of steam after a while. By level 15-17, your Focused Specialist buddy will be catching up to you, and will have less bruising on the head from assorted rulebooks.

Optimizing for first level is fun and there are certain limitations that make it more interesting than a build that comes together at 20, but usually characters built to be teh uber at 1 are pretty lackluster by 6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That bolded part is nonsense. Your idea of automatic hits isn't in the rules. Instead, here's how you go about this. So you'd need to figure out the size of your expanded self relative to the largest weapon you can throw proficiently, and your attack roll is the sum of the following:

your normal ranged AB
-2 * (number of size categories larger than maximum thrown weapon size)
-4 improvised weapon penalty
-2 for 10' range
That's how it's done, absent some class ability like Guided Smart Bomb Body Attack (Ex).

It's a grenadelike weapon affecting an area. A heavy object falls into those squares, the creatures in those squares get squished. Normally there would be an attack roll to hit the square, but since it's your character manually moving himself to that spot no attack roll is required.

[Fiery Diamond]

How has no one mentioned:

-Trade your ability to read for a +1 to hit
-Trade your ability to blink for Imp. Unarmed Strike

What? You asked about 1st level MinMax (http://www.goblinscomic.com/) tips!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@a)
Nice, I knew you can voluntarily fail saves, but I didn't know you can voluntarily fail checks. Could you provide a source? I don't want to dig through my whole library for that rule, and it might be useful in other situations.
@b)
So you allow third level stained glass half-golems, too?

I'm pretty sure anyone can voluntarily fail any d20 check they want to, just by not even trying. If that's not the case, then once the AMF treatment starts you could prepare a (Greater) Bestow Curse (and possibly Invoke Magic, but at that point you could just teleport away) and cast it on yourself immediately after the disjunction to get a -4 to all your checks. If your Wisdom modifier is at least -2 (dump stat 8, +3 venerable, -2 desert kobold, -4 Spellhoarding is 5) then even on a 20 your Wisdom check is only a 14 and fails. Regardless, I'd say a DM who forces a character to be 'cured' of a defining feature, possibly resulting in a loss of mechanical benefits that makes the character unplayable (assuming he dipped Wizard for specialization and applied prestige classes to his Wizard casting, thus resulting in a horrendous multiclassed spellcaster), then it would be time to discuss the issues out of character rather than argue the rules.

Half-Golem isn't an illness a character catches, it's an extensive procedure involving both crafting and magic item creation rules, and is entirely dependent on the DM making an NPC perform that procedure. It would be like 'catching' Spellstitched, it just can't happen without the cost being paid. Spellstitched has no listed level adjustment, but as long as a character meets the requirements, pays its considerable cost, and has someone on hand who is capable and willing to perform the procedure, then a PC can have that template. There is no cost for the dragon psychoses, no reliance on an outside influence for it to happen.

A comparable template would be Tainted Minion and Tainted Raver from Heroes of Horror, a result of the Taint rules from that same book. The difference with those is that it actually has, "Level Adjustment: Tainted [minions/ravers] cannot be player characters." I played a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer one time who had Undead Leadership and his cohort was a Tainted Minion, which was actually quite powerful though he only guarded the character's castle and lands and acted as general of his undead legion. (It was the character's brother; his wife's ghost haunted the catacombs beneath the castle, and his own daughter was a Slaymate who he'd spellstitched himself and brought along on adventures, he'd picked up Revive Undead just in case.) My point is, a LA - template doesn't automatically mean you can't use it, it all depends on how the template is gained and if your character (or cohort) can meet that criteria.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a grenadelike weapon affecting an area. A heavy object falls into those squares, the creatures in those squares get squished. Normally there would be an attack roll to hit the square, but since it's your character manually moving himself to that spot no attack roll is required.

Your body is not a "grenadelike weapon" unless it breaks apart on impact and does splash damage.
Your body isn't "manually moving" itself, unless it's controlled (as by wings) and uses an action such as a regular move. Dropping and letting gravity and the prevailing winds move you isn't controlled.
Hitting a character with your body under control is covered by the Overrun special attack. This provokes an attack of opportunity and the opponent always has the option to simply avoid you. No damage is dealt, but if you succeed you knock the opponent prone.
What you're proposing could only be a house rule, because the RAW says otherwise.

[Calimehter]

There are some nice rules for dropped objects used to attack people in Heroes of Battle (under the Aerial Bombardment section). One key component is that targets of dropped objects can escape all damage using a DC 15 Reflex save.

I don't see it mentioned very often when various "dive-bombing" strategies are mentioned on the forums, so I don't know if there is something RAW stopping that from happening, or if it is just something not a lot of people know about. :smallconfused:

As a GM *I* would certainly apply it in this situation. :smallcool:

[Aharon]

@Biffonacius
You're right. On rethinking, I realized that I didn't actually have problems with the RAW legality, but with the idea of improving your character via a mental illness.

It just appeared, to me, to be more against the spirit of the rules than various other things mentioned in this thread. But that notion doesn't have a place in this kind of discussion. I didn't put enough thought into the reasons for my position beforehand, sorry :smallredface: