View Full Version : Sharp Nasty Point Teeth (Bite Attack?)

2011-02-15, 09:34 AM
I want to make a character with a bite attack, and then optimize that bite attack so that it does the most damage possible....
How can I do this?

2011-02-15, 09:42 AM
The prestige class "Thayan Gladiator" (it's in some Forgotten Realms book) does a lot to boost natural attacks, though I think you may have to be evil or at least neutral to qualify.

Another prestige class would be "Warshaper" (I believe from one of the Complete books), though to get into that one you need to gain the ability to shapechange. It's well known for having lots of fun toys though, if you can get in.

For base class? Hm... I guess your best options are either druid or a modified version of a monk/unarmed swordsage using your bite attacks instead of fists. Honestly, I'm not too sure what you should do for the base.

Is this going to be a monstrous character race, or a normal one with some funky backstory? If so, what monster? That might help us help you.

2011-02-15, 09:48 AM
For Base Class, go Psychic Warrior. They get more than a few powers which can:

A: Create a Bite attack, if you don't already have one.
B: Pump it to awesome damage, and gain other effects (including vampirism)

2011-02-15, 09:50 AM
This old post of mine may give you a few ideas:

1 Wu Jen / 2 Cloistered Cleric / 9 Geomancer (progress Cleric)

Wu Jen is used for the bonus metamagic feat, but if you want you can use any other arcane spellcasting class that grants you level 1 spells (which can be sanctumed into level 2 spells for Geomancer qualification).

Important Feats:
-Sanctum Spell (early qualification of Geomancer)
-Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric

Nice to Have Feats:
-Energy Substitution Fire
-Searing Spell (so that your attacks are garunteed to deal damage regardless of resistance/immunity)
-Extend Spell
-Persist Spell
-DMM Persist Spell (for persist Divine Power)

Important Geomancer Drifts:
-Drift 3: Crocodile Bite
-Drift 4: Weasal Attachment Bite
-Drift 5: Poisonous Bite

Important Spells:
-Venomfire (Geomancer Poisonous Bite qualifies you for this. Now add Fire Substitution and Searing Spell)

How it Works:
-Geomancer can give you a poisonous bite that automatically attaches when it hits (AFAIK, regardless of size differences).
-Arguably, the poison damage should apply every round you remain attached.
-Venomfire replaces your poison with energy damage.

High Cheese:
-According to Weasel Attachment (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Weasel), to unattach you, you first have to be pinned by your enemy. Arguably, you can prevent this from happening by casting Freedom of movement, essentially rendering you unpinnable and hence unattachable.
-In theory, you can also grab Ferocity from Drift 4, and combo that with DMM Persist Delay Death.
-Venomfire does uncapped 1d6/CL damage. With some hefty CL boosting shenanigans, you might be able to hit CL 25 for 25d6 damage.

2011-02-15, 10:47 AM
I actually looked into this not too long ago. The cheapest way I could do it without throwing class levels at it was with 2 vile feats (BoVD). The second feat basically has you file your teeth into points and gives you a bite attack. It was so mechanically weak that I went another route instead (the bite attack did 1d3 or similar).

Keld Denar
2011-02-15, 12:08 PM
Biting is all well and good, but make sure you are paying attention to your other attacks as well. You can only bite once per round unless you use your Haste attack on a bite. Unless you have two heads with two bites, you can't even use Rapid Strike from the Draconomnomnomnomnomicon to gain extra bites. Also, a bite will only ever get +.5x Str bonus when you use it in conjunction with any other attack, natural or manufactured (except if the bite is your primary, then it'll get +1x, and only if you don't use a manufactured weapon).

The best way to optimized a bite attack is with a weapon with the Mouthpick (+1 equiv) enhancement from Lords of Madness. This would allow you to TWF with a hand-held weapon and your mouthpick weapon, giving you 2handed damage with your hand-held weapon and using the mouthpick weapon as an offhand. At least you would get up to 3 attacks (pre-epic)with your bite that way, instead of a single attack.

The other best way to optimize a bite is simply to look for sources of +damage that are independant of the weapon. Sneak Attack is the most obvious source, but there are others such as Shadow Blade, Knowledge Devotion, or the Holy Warrior reserve feat. A bite is an extra attack with a decent attack bonus, so it has a good chance of landing a hit and dealing extra damage. The base damage of the bite is relatively irrelevant, you are mostly looking for a delivery mechanism for your bonus damage.

2011-02-15, 01:21 PM
I'm fairly terrible at builds but: Shifter as a race with the Longtooth Shifter type will give you Fangs that do D6 Damage ( +1 Dam ever 4 levels) and +2 Str.
Warshaper will raise the Damage to D8
Were-Touched Master will raise the damage to 2D6 (+1 Damage every 4 levels)
The Longtooth elite feat will mean your bite will also deal a point of Constitution damage
The Great Bite Feat will raise the Crit. Multiplier of your bite to x3 ( both Feats are Shifter feats and so will also enable you to Shift more times per day)

Keld Denar
2011-02-15, 01:50 PM
INA on there would increase it by another step.

Speaking of effective size increases...bite attacks are considered all 3 damage types (Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing), and thus are a legal target for Greater Mighty Wallop, the best spell for increasing effective size bonus. Just something to mention.

2011-02-15, 02:01 PM
INA on there would increase it by another step.

Good point
Shifter Savagery is worth considering as well if you can Rage

Keld Denar
2011-02-15, 02:05 PM
IIRC, Shifter Savagry explicitly doesn't stack with INA though. I could be wrong on this one, but I do remember some link there...

Regardless, as I said, if you are gonna spend like, 5 of your 7-8 feats on your bite attack, you better figure out some way to get it more than once per round...of which I can't really think of any easy methods of doing that don't involve growing another head.

2011-02-15, 02:13 PM
My recommendation would be a combination of a lot of things that were already said.

Race: Longtooth Shifter
Classes: Druid (just long enough to get some nice buff spells)
Warshaper (you only need 1 level to give you morphic weapons which is the ability which increases damage size, though I would recommend going all the way to 4)
Weretouched Master (I would recommend taking this all the way to level 5)
Go into Moon speaker with whatever you have left.

Longtooth Elite
Improved Natural Attack (Shifter)(I'm not sure, but I think that this counts as shifter feat.)
Shifter Multiattack

Also, there is an Item called the Bead of Dire Shifting which increases you size category while shifting.

2011-02-15, 09:50 PM
One issue of Dragon magazine(341) had Thrall of Baphomet. If you had either a gore or a bite attack, it gave you the other. If you had both, they both received a boost(as though you had INA to each, but without explicitly mentioning the Feat, so it stacks).

2011-02-15, 09:53 PM
I want to make a character with a bite attack, and then optimize that bite attack so that it does the most damage possible....
How can I do this?Play an Abyssal, they've got a boatload of Charms that can help. :smallamused: Not my fault if you never said what system.

2011-02-15, 10:00 PM
While it may not be optimal, one of the more metal (pun not intended but accepted and encouraged) ways to get a bite attack is with the Jaws of Death feat on a warforged.

2011-02-15, 10:35 PM
Speaking of effective size increases...bite attacks are considered all 3 damage types (Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing), and thus are a legal target for Greater Mighty Wallop, the best spell for increasing effective size bonus. Just something to mention.

You know, I knew of both and never thought of combining them before I read this!

2011-02-15, 11:37 PM
bite attacks are considered all 3 damage types (Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing)

Vorpal Teeth!!!

2011-02-16, 11:35 AM
Vorpal Teeth!!!

I believe the Black Blood Cultist has those.

2011-02-16, 12:57 PM
Bite is something that's fairly hard to optimize. But here's a list you might find handy:

Anything that grants Wildshape or Polymorph will give you easy access to a bite attack. This includes any extraordinary special attacks of its original form (such as poison or disease). Alter Self also works to add natural attacks, but it doesn't include extraordinary abilities of those attacks, so arguably it doesn't include poison et al.
Dragon Disciple: 2 levels get you a primary bite and 2 secondary claw attacks.
Fang of Lolth: Bite and extra limbs. Also provides Sneak Attack and other goodies. Unfortunately, it's 3.0 material. Song and Silence.
Geomancer: A Mystic Thurge-ish PrC. Starting at 5th level (ECL 11ish) the "Drifts" that you gain each level can add natural weapons. This includes more then one type of gore, claws, bite, sting, a wolf's ability to Trip as a Free Action, a bear's Improved Grab, an elephant's trample, and poison. So by ECL 16 you can gain 6 natural attacks, plus your normal attack routine, plus your spells (from a somewhat nerfed progression). Complete Divine pg 41.
Wildrunner: 2 levels gets you a secondary bite attack. Races of the Wild.
Deformity (teeth): Adds a bite attack. Deformities have a feat pre-req of Willing Deformity and Evil alignment. Heroes of Horror.
Extra Shifter Trait: Gives you another Shifter trait. Longtooth will add a bite attack while Shifting, or Razorclaw will add 2 claws while Shifting. Eberron Campaign Setting.
Jaws of Death: Gives a Warforged a bite attack. Races of Eberron.
Fanged Mask: Adds an all day magic bite attack, plus a limited use Stun attack. Magic Item Compendium pg 99.
Bite of the Wolf psionic power: Manifest a primary or secondary bite attack.
Bite of the Were-whatever: Variety of spells (werewolf, wererat, werebear) that grant a bite and/or claw attacks, and nifty stat bonuses. Spell Compendium.
Ankheg Breastplate (bound to Totem chakra): Gain a Bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Acid damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 57.
Behir Gorget (bound to Totem chakra): Gain a Bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Electricity damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 60.
Brass Mane (bound to Totem chakra): Gain a bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with your bite. Magic of Incarnum pg 62.
Winter Mask (bound to Totem chakra): Gain a bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Cold damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 93.
Phase Cloak (bound to Totem chakra): Gain a bite attack that also deals Poison damage. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit with the bite. Magic of Incarnum pg 82.
Threefold Mask of the Chimera (bound to Totem Chakra): Gain 3 bite attacks. But there's a very odd mechanic for how you use them, so on a normal full attack action, you're only gaining 1 bite. Magic of Incarnum pg 90.
Darfellan: Natural bite. +0 LA. Stormwrack.
Kobold variant: 2 primary claws and 1 secondary bite. WotC website.
Grasping Mandibles Illithid Graft gives a bite attack that lets you start a grapple as a free action if you hit. Fiend Folio.
Poison Fangs yuan-ti graft: Adds a strong poison to any existing bite attack. 8,000 gp, Serpent Kingdoms pg 154.
Serpent Arm yuan-ti graft: Adds an arm with a serpent hand, giving you a bite attack with a strong poison. 12,000 gp, Serpent Kingdoms pg 154.
Chupoclops vestige (Binder 10 with a feat) gives you Aura of Despair, Ethereal Watcher, Ghost Touch, Poison Bite, Pounce, Soulsense. People usually take this as part of a debuff build, but the poison bite is also fairly good and Pounce is always handy. Tome of Magic.
Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) of ways to increase size and reach. Always handy for any natural weapon build.
Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike feats will each add 1 attack to any one type of natural weapon. Draconomicon.
You can use your bite attack for attacks of opportunity.

There are a bunch of other races and templates that offer a bite, but the LA tends to be prohibitive. There are also a few other bite related combo's like Snatch and Swallow in the Draconomicon, but they generally require Huge size or some similar monster related pre-req.

My overall suggestion is to find a monster with a crazy awesome bite attack, and then Wildshape or Polymorph into it. Load up on AoO feats like Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Hold the Line, etc. And you're set.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-16, 01:58 PM
Totemist (magic of incarnum) is based on the Idea of getting natural weapons and buffing the crap out of them.

Alternately if you go the Willing deformity/Deformity(teeth) route I suggest nabbing the other the reach deformity feat (name eludes me) as well, since you already took the stupid prereq. The nice part is that you can still attack adjacent targets with that feat. Also max out you intimidate skill, because you now have enough bonuses to make it worth doing.

And if you add the two together, I think you will be quite pleased with your evil animal man thing.

2011-02-16, 02:04 PM
It has been a long time but I had a build that was based around lots of bites and con damage.

Shifter+template for a new type with long tooth+longtooth elite (con damage)+totemist (threefold head of the chimera and other goodies)+necklace of magical attacks (magic enchantments and there are two different enchantments that give additional con damage)+rapid strike and improved rapid strike.

Each bite would deal damage and at least 3 points of con damage. Assuming you went all out and got a +16 BAB (and you were shifted) you would have 4 bite attacks with one head, 2 bite attacks with a second head, and one bite attack with the third head. That is a lot of con damage. Each bite would deal fair damage as well. You could also use your totemist powers to get other natural attacks as well for even more fun.

I cannot remember what template I used to get a type valid with rapid strike though.

EDIT: I cannot remember what the two enhancements that give con damage are and how much con damage they inflict each.

Keld Denar
2011-02-16, 02:04 PM
Willing Deformity (Tall) is the feat you are looking for. Gives +5' of natural reach.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-16, 02:24 PM
Willing Deformity (Tall) is the feat you are looking for. Gives +5' of natural reach.

Thank you. As one who has taken this feat before, I can attest to it's awesomeness. And the intimdate bonus from willing deformity made up for shafting CHA (since that is fighter's only charisma skill).

2011-02-16, 03:51 PM
Vorpal Teeth!!!

Critting your tongue would have dramatic results...

2011-02-17, 07:10 AM
The easiest - just take lvs in martial adept. Being able to make just 1 attack each round isn't that big a drawback when maneuvers face a similar limitation anyways, and the bonus damage is independent of the base weapon.

I noticed a similar problem when advancing monsters with single natural weapons (those with pairs can at least take rapidstrike for iterative attacks). For example, a monster of legend winter wolf advanced to 18HD is a whooping cr12, but still limited to a single bite at 2d6+1.5str mod, hardly scary against 12th lv PCs. Even humble maneuvers like steel wind can already double your damage output.

Another ambiguous interpretation - the rapid blitz feat tree in PHB2 might allow you to make extra attacks with your natural weapon when you spring attack, depending on how you interpret it. :smallsmile: