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JohnDaBarr
2011-02-15, 10:25 AM
OK my friend would like to try to play a pure Rogue (well she likes mischief and to be able to use a ton of skills).

yeah I know to get all the skills you what or need you probably need 3-5 lvl of Rogue and playing a pure one on higher lvl you'll end up with bluffing Gods, successfully sense motive a stone and hide in plain sight in an empty city square in the middle of the day, but still she likes Rogues and going to go all 20 lvl of it.

so, I'm not worried will the rogue do here job (doing epic trap sense, bluff, hide, rob everyone and escape is easy if you're a Rogue) but how to make here more useful in combat in terms of getting here to do more dmg.

so few tips would be nice, thx

Urpriest
2011-02-15, 10:35 AM
Pure rogue isn't horrible. You'll likely want to go either the TWF and flanking route or the being completely undetectable via Hide route. The former is at least straightforward, and leads to respectable damage. The latter is trickier, will rely on the morass that is the stealth rules, but can be very fun. You need some method to hide in plain sight, which for a pure rogue could be gotten with for example the Dark Creature template from I believe Tome of Magic (with the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis being a magic item that gives the benefits of the template if you don't want LA and have gold to spare).

Darth Stabber
2011-02-15, 11:05 AM
UMD is your bestest friend EVAR! (I once ran a character that had the party convinced he was a wizard thanks to carefully concealed use of UMD and scrolls, wands and various other magic lewts.)

There is a skill trick that gives you enough concealment to Hide in plain sight.

On that note: Skill Tricks - your second bestest friend EVAR!

Be human or be small. Human gives you a feat and a skill, whereas being small just rocks when you don't care about your weapon dice (since you are after SA).

SurlySeraph
2011-02-15, 11:23 AM
Sneak Attack can be very nice with TWF. The feats Craven (which adds your character level to your SA damage) and Staggering Strike (forces a Fort save vs losing an action each time you hit) are especially nice.

Changeling Rogue is an alternate class feature for Changelings (an Eberron race that basically gets Disguise Self at will) that gets some bonuses to social skills and knowledge, and Fortification. It's especially good with Knowledge Devotion, and a lot of fun if she wants a more social rogue instead of a more trapfindy rogue.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-15, 11:24 AM
I've played a lot of Rogue characters with excellent results. For greater combat capability, use some or all of the following:

Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17) is the sine qua non of Rogue feats. You really, really want this as your level 3 or level 6 feat. Craven gives +1 point of damage/character level on every sneak attack. (It also makes you more vulnerable to fear, so consider the Uncanny Bravery ACF in Dragon Magic on page 14.) Because Craven isn't bonus damage in the form of dice, it will get multiplied on a critical hit.
In a Forgotten Realms campaign, take the version of the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152. This grants Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, like the Shadowdancer ability. It's well worth the +1 level adjustment, which you can buy off for 3,000 XP at class level 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Supernatural HiPS removes both Hide requirements (cover/concealment, not being observed) so you can Hide anywhere, with any compatible action (including while attacking).
The Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208 IIRC) will let the Rogue deal snake attack with ½ the normal dice when flanking normally sneak-immune targets; you lose trap sense.
The Poison Use ACF (Drow of the Underdark, page 58) gives you Poison Use instead of trapfinding. (Only consider this if you're really focused on dealing damage, because finding traps is a main class ability.)
Focus on using weapons without waste. The rapier is the best Rogue weapon because it has decent damage and an excellent threat range without requiring a feat for proficiency; a keen rapier makes it reasonably likely you'll double your Craven damage on a critical sneak attack. Feats are also much too precious to waste on Two-Weapon Fighting, which only works on a full attack (which is very risky because of full counterattacks). But you can buy Improved Unarmed Strike cheaply in the form of Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerūn; 1,310 gp). That sets you up to take Snap Kick as your level 9 feat. Snap Kick gives you an extra unarmed attack every time you make at least one melee attack. So, unlike the full-attack-only TWF, it works with all of the following:

standard action attack
full attack
bonus attack, such as granted by casting a touch attack spell
attack of opportunity
Since most of your damage will come from sneak attack, the low unarmed damage isn't a big concern. You can, of course, buy a Monk's Belt and Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) to boost this.
Generally speaking, leverage your ability to make much more than the standard Wealth by Level guidelines. When spellcasters are resting or preparing spells, you can be out generating income. A Breath of the Waves graft (Magic of Eberron) will let you alleviate fatigue (and other conditions), so you'll have 9 extra useful hours every night while spellcasters are doing their daily routine. 63 hours of extra time each week is enough for a whole extra income.
With extra money, buy the capabilities you need. You don't want to be limited by the maximum DEX bonus of armor, so Bracers of Armor or robes with an armor enhancement (Magic Item Compendium, page 234) are expensive but not limiting. You can add capabilities like Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shadow) and Mobility (the armor enhancement which grants the feat) to either of these; see the rules in Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130. Also get 100% Fortification in the form of a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83); no connection to armor is required. Bracers or robes with armor bonuses aren't actual armor, so you can still benefit from a Monk's Belt. Thus you've got two incentives to boost your Wisdom: greater AC as well as shoring up your weak Will saves.
Maximize your Use Magic Device ability (though without spending feats). Commissioning a custom magic item providing a skill boost is an excellent idea. Being able to use wands like Greater Invisibility will greatly increase your combat effectiveness. Getting your UMD modifier up to +20 lets you train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137) by emulating all the class features of a 1st-level Monk. After the training you'll be able to make a 10' step whenever you'd have the chance to make a 5' step. You'll be able to make full attacks and step back 10' to forestall full counterattacks.
Skills are important. Maximize Spot so you won't be surprised when combat starts, and can make a ranged sneak attack against a flat-footed foe, using the composite longbow (if Elf) or shortbow you carry at the ready. (On the first regular round of combat you'll keep making ranged shots at flat-footed foes to get guaranteed sneak attack.) Maximize Tumble to go around or through enemies without provoking AoOs. Add the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) to turn your Tumble skill into one extra guaranteed sneak attack each combat. And of course maximize Hide to make attacks when you're visually undetectable and get more sneak attacks (see the Move between Cover use of Hide in Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102).
If you really want to focus on combat, the combination of Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) feats, plus maximizing all 6 creature-related Knowledge skills, will give you bonuses to attack and damage vs. everything. Taking Skill Mastery at level 10, and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) as your level 12 feat, will help you to achieve a guaranteed (no rolling) +5 to attack and damage everything.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-15, 11:41 AM
Telling Blow(phb2) - you may add your sneak attack damage to critical hits.
TWF + Telling Blow + Wand of Keen edge + Wand of Haste + xBurst Rapier + yBurst Dagger;
where x and y are each one of the following Shocking, flaming, icy, corrosive, anarchic, axiomatic, holy or unholy.

RndmNumGen
2011-02-15, 11:54 AM
Does anyone have advice for a ranged rogue? I was thinking about playing one of these in my next game, focusing on the crossbow. It seems rather lackluster and insubstantial, but since our group doesn't really optimize(I'm playing a pure monk right now, and am one of the strongest guys in the party) that shouldn't be a problem. Still I would like to have some form of synergy between ranged weapons and the rogues abilities, which seems to be lacking(Sneak attack must be within 30'? Boo...)

true_shinken
2011-02-15, 12:02 PM
Does anyone have advice for a ranged rogue? I was thinking about playing one of these in my next game, focusing on the crossbow. It seems rather lackluster and insubstantial, but since our group doesn't really optimize(I'm playing a pure monk right now, and am one of the strongest guys in the party) that shouldn't be a problem. Still I would like to have some form of synergy between ranged weapons and the rogues abilities, which seems to be lacking(Sneak attack must be within 30'? Boo...)

Hand Crossbow Focus allows you to make ranged sneak attacks with a crossbow at 60' range and adds 1/2 your Dex to damage.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-15, 12:56 PM
Hand Crossbow Focus allows you to make ranged sneak attacks with a crossbow at 60' range and adds 1/2 your Dex to damage.
Hand Crossbow Focus (Drow of the Underdark) does nothing of the sort.
Benefit: You can reload a hand crossbow as a free action.
You also gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with a hand crossbow.
The feat you're thinking of is Crossbow Sniper (Player's Handbook II). Note that this has a feat tax (requires Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus).

true_shinken
2011-02-15, 01:06 PM
Hand Crossbow Focus (Drow of the Underdark) does nothing of the sort.
The feat you're thinking of is Crossbow Sniper (Player's Handbook II). Note that this has a feat tax (requires Weapon Proficiency).

Oh, so I got the name wrong.
But why is there a feat tax? Rogues are proficient with the hand crossbow, aren't they?

Curmudgeon
2011-02-15, 01:13 PM
Oh, so I got the name wrong.
But why is there a feat tax? Rogues are proficient with the hand crossbow, aren't they?
I guess we're both screwing up today; I didn't finish that before posting. The feat requires both proficiency and Weapon Focus.

I'll go edit the original.

true_shinken
2011-02-15, 01:17 PM
I guess we're both screwing up today; I didn't finish that before posting. The feat requires both proficiency and Weapon Focus.

Then Hand Crossbow Focus comes in handy, I believe, as it's Weapon Focus + Rapid Reload. It does count as Weapon Focus for requirements, doesn't it?

Darth Stabber
2011-02-15, 01:29 PM
Then Hand Crossbow Focus comes in handy, I believe, as it's Weapon Focus + Rapid Reload. It does count as Weapon Focus for requirements, doesn't it?

As a gm I would allow it. Midnight dodge and Desert wind dodge count as dodge so why not? Besides it has "hand crossbow" and "focus" right in the name.

RndmNumGen
2011-02-15, 01:49 PM
Hmm... alright, that's a good start. What about ways to reliably deliver sneak attack damage, since you can't flank from range?

Sorry for hijacking your thread OP :smallbiggrin:

Xiander
2011-02-15, 01:55 PM
Hmm... alright, that's a good start. What about ways to reliably deliver sneak attack damage, since you can't flank from range?

Sorry for hijacking your thread OP :smallbiggrin:

Feint and hide comes in handy here, though both have their own limitations. Alternatively, invisibility is your friend.

nhbdy
2011-02-15, 02:06 PM
Feint and hide comes in handy here, though both have their own limitations. Alternatively, invisibility is your friend.

can you feint with a bow?

true_shinken
2011-02-15, 02:06 PM
Feint and hide comes in handy here, though both have their own limitations. Alternatively, invisibility is your friend.

Feint is melee only.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-15, 03:46 PM
I think that there is also a slight of hand related skill trick that renders the opponent flat footed against a thrown weapon attack (you may con the gm into letting handXbow count)

true_shinken
2011-02-15, 03:49 PM
you may con the gm into letting handXbow count

No, you can't. You can ask nicely and then if he accepts, awesome. You don't con a DM. That's just rude.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-15, 03:57 PM
No, you can't. You can ask nicely and then if he accepts, awesome. You don't con a DM. That's just rude.

Given my GM'ing experience, no, you con a GM into stuff. Asking nicely is just a con, you're just not paranoid enough to see it.

mootoall
2011-02-15, 04:02 PM
Pure rogue isn't actually a great idea. Rogue 19/Anything Else 1 is a good build. Rogue 20 is the second deadest level I've ever seen. Unless this is Pathfinder.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-15, 05:59 PM
The Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208 IIRC) will let the Rogue deal snake attack with ½ the normal dice when flanking normally sneak-immune targets; you lose trap sense.

Penetrating Strike also appears in Dungeonscape.

I don't entirely agree on the relative merits of TWF and Snap Kick, but aiming for Snap Kick is a valid approach.
Note the Gloves of the Balanced Hand in the Magic Item Compendium, which give you TWF or ITWF for 8,000 gp if you decide to go with TWF.
I'd also recommend mithral armo, with the Nimbleness enhancement (MiC), which increases the max Dex bonus and decreases the armor check penalty. +1 Nimbleness Mithral Breastplate is 8,350 gp, and has +7 max Dex and 0 ACP; you'll want a higher max Dex than that at higher levels when you can afford +6 Gloves of Dexterity and have put level-up points in Dexterity, but it's excellent up until 11th level or so.


Hmm... alright, that's a good start. What about ways to reliably deliver sneak attack damage, since you can't flank from range?

Sorry for hijacking your thread OP :smallbiggrin:

The easiest way is usually to be invisible, have Blur, or something similar.


I think that there is also a slight of hand related skill trick that renders the opponent flat footed against a thrown weapon attack (you may con the gm into letting handXbow count)

I'm pretty sure that skill trick exists. I know that there's a feat that does the same thing, Neraph Throw.

JohnDaBarr
2011-02-15, 06:12 PM
well I must say most of the advices here sound highly useful, I'll try to mix something up with my friend a see what she thinks is here thing.

anyway people thx, and no worries about hijacking the thread I like when people think out loud... eheeem OK when they think on my thread XD

Curmudgeon
2011-02-15, 07:15 PM
Penetrating Strike also appears in Dungeonscape.
The wording of Dungeonscape Penetrating Strike and EtCR Lightbringer Penetrating Strike is somewhat different. The former merely says that you deal damage equal to ½ your normal sneak attack dice when flanking an enemy who's immune to sneak attack. The latter says that you deal ½ your normal sneak attack dice in damage. The difference is that Lightbringer Penetrating Strike establishes that it's still sneak attack damage, and hence Craven applies; the former is ambiguous, and thus a DM's call.

As these two ACFs have different names, you're free to choose either one for your Rogue. I prefer the option that doesn't depend on DM judgment.

true_shinken
2011-02-15, 07:31 PM
As these two ACFs have different names, you're free to choose either one for your Rogue. I prefer the option that doesn't depend on DM judgment.
The Dungeonscape one also only applies while flanking, IIRC

gorfnab
2011-02-15, 10:46 PM
You may also want to read through The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350).

Saint GoH
2011-02-15, 10:59 PM
She will be fairly feat starved at going pure rogue, but if she has the feats to spare perhaps Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (extra 2d6 SA)? I'd suggest she dip a single level of swordsage so she can grab the stance and a manuever and qualify for Shadowblade easier, but that sounds out of the question.

+1 Dungeonscape ACF

+1 Changling Rogue (I want to look like an elf today yay!)

+OVER 9000 for Craven

Waker
2011-02-15, 11:06 PM
The feat Bow Feint in Dragon 350 lets you feint at range. You need Point Blank Shot and Int 13. You can feint up to 30ft away as a standard action.