Eberron vs Dark Sun

[Curious]

Today we have a competition, not between individuals, but between entire worlds. Dark Sun, a blasted wasteland ruled by tyrannical sorceror-kings, against the might of the nations of Eberron and their technology. There will be two categories to this contest; flavor, and straight up battle.

Flavor: This category is for determining which of the two campaign settings is more interesting, challenging, or just plain fun.

Battle: This is the more complex scenario, pitting the two worlds against each other in mortal combat. For the purpose of this argument, a two-mile long portal between the worlds has opened just before the Sea of Silt, with the opening on Eberron being directly in the center of the Talenta plains of Khorvaire. Assuming hostilities between the two worlds, who wins?

[Tiki Snakes]

Battle? From what little I understand, whichever side doesn't piss off Eberon's continent of Dragons could probably be called the winner.

Flavour seems to be the more interesting part of the question, to me. :smallsmile:

[Curious]

Really, for battle I just wanted to se whether people thought the vicious psychic creatures of Dark Sun, or the psionic-sorcerer-dragons could match up to what Eberron could throw at them. As for flavor, I think it's very difficult to judge, as both are very interesting settings, with entirely different styles attached to them. I want to hear what people think about them. :smallsmile:

[Fox Box Socks]

Apples and oranges.

Eberron is a kitchen sink setting designed to accommodate any and all possible character archetypes. Dark Sun is intentionally restrictive, with a large number of classes and races simply not available as player options for flavor reasons. Eberron is early Renaissance post-war noire swashbuckling pulp adventure magepunk. Dark Sun is post-apocalyptic Conan-style "warrior wandering the waste amongst oppressing and bizarre foreign cultures" fantasy. They're shooting for different things.

As far as battling goes, they're evenly matched. The Dragon and the Sorcerer-Kings really are no stronger than the Dal Quor, the Daelkyr, the dragons of Argonnessen, or the Lords of Dust.

Small side-note: the Sorcerer-Kings are arcane defilers, not psionicists.

[Cuaqchi]

Flavour wise it's a tough call.

Both are gritty worlds: Eberron is gritty in the alignment doesn't matter and everything and anyone may play nontraditional roles. Orc Druid Guardians!? Whereas, Dark Sun is just every body is little evil in an EVIL world.

Both assume magic has evolved in some way from its study: Eberron -> Magi-Tech "Paradise", Dark Sun -> Nuclear Wasteland

Both seetings are vast enough to allow any game style to play throughout a character's career. Exploration and Adventure - Check, Political Intrigue - Check, Planetary Salvation - Check (4E even has the Mourning Savior Epic Destiny!)

In the end I think it comes down more to one's preferance regarding psionics or magic. Outside of the Kalashtar or the Far Realm it is the magic vs. psionics divide that seperates the two and personal preferance will determine what world people prefer.

For mortal combat... I would say Eberron wins in a war of attrition. The planet is massive, housing creatures and cultures equally as dangerous as the wastes in Dark Sun but if nothing else they can amass a true horde of warforged that just wade across the wastes killing what they need to.

[Thant]

In terms of warfare I would say without a doubt Ebberon. Unless the Sorcerer Kings would gain a reasonable foothold in Khorvaire or some other continent in their opponents territory by the merits of blitzkrieg warfare I assume they would very soon become pretty much overwhelmed seeing how low on resources and population Athas is and how far with magics and tech is Ebberon. It's just a matter of numbers and Dark Sun has much less of everything in compare to any other setting.

As for the flavor, that's totally subjective matter. I myself prefer dark post-apoc gritty science or any other fiction to anything else, so DS wins :smallsmile:

[true_shinken]

Flavour wise it's a tough call.

Both are gritty worlds: Eberron is gritty in the alignment doesn't matter and everything and anyone may play nontraditional roles.
That's not what gritty means.


Whereas, Dark Sun is just every body is little evil in an EVIL world.
That's not what Dark Sun is about.
Dark Sun is about a violent, rough world.


Both assume magic has evolved in some way from its study: Eberron -> Magi-Tech "Paradise", Dark Sun -> Nuclear Wasteland
Magic in Dark Sun is worse than in other settings, not 'evolved'.


Both seetings are vast enough to allow any game style to play throughout a character's career. Exploration and Adventure - Check, Political Intrigue - Check, Planetary Salvation - Check (4E even has the Mourning Savior Epic Destiny!)
That's not 'any play style'. Dark Sun is not intended to work on lots of campaigns. Kick-the-door-kill-the-monster-grab-the-loot doesn't work in Dark Sun. Well, it didn't before 4e, at least.


In the end I think it comes down more to one's preferance regarding psionics or magic. Outside of the Kalashtar or the Far Realm it is the magic vs. psionics divide that seperates the two and personal preferance will determine what world people prefer.
I completely disagree. Eberron and Dark Sun are VASTLY different worlds. Restricting this difference to one of the few features both settings have is at least weird.


For mortal combat... I would say Eberron wins in a war of attrition. The planet is massive, housing creatures and cultures equally as dangerous as the wastes in Dark Sun but if nothing else they can amass a true horde of warforged that just wade across the wastes killing what they need to.
That I agree with. Eberron is very big and has a lot more powerful creaturas than Dark Sun does.

[Zaydos]

Flavor I'd say Dark Sun.

Battle? 3.X; If the Sorcerer-Kings could be convinced to work together then I think they'd win. They're epic wizard/psions capable of above 9th level spells (so Epic Spells in 3.X). It's numbers versus power and unless this portal restarts the Last War I'd have to say that in-fighting would kill the Athasians.

[Chen]

Small side-note: the Sorcerer-Kings are arcane defilers, not psionicists.

Well back in second edition they were level 20 Wizard (defilers)/20 psionicists + whatever amount of "Dragon" levels they had (1-7, with Borys having all 10 I believe).

I don't think they officially converted them to 3.5 but they would be pretty monstrous there I'd imagine. Definitely into the epic levels (though probably not in the 40s).

Also back in 2nd edition people seemed to just have better stats on Athas (5d4 vs 3d6) which, if carried forward, would also make a huge difference.

If we're talking 4th ed, then it probably doesn't matter as much since there is a hard cap on how strong people can get at level 30 so it really amounts to who can throw the most high level people at the other.

[Fox Box Socks]

If it comes down to battle, it's not even close. Dark Sun creatures and humanoids may be significantly stronger than the average humanoid or creature of Eberron, but all of Dark Sun takes place in an area that's roughly the size of Texas. Eberron has numbers, better technology (metal weapons are rather important), and more easily accessible magic.

Eberron wins almost by default.

[Greenish]

Outside of the Kalashtar or the Far Realm it is the magic vs. psionics divide that seperates the two and personal preferance will determine what world people prefer.Psionics aren't quite as ubiquitous in Eberron than they are on Dark Sun, but that doesn't really mean only Kalashtar have them. There are plenty of psionic cultures and manifesters all along Eberron, though concentrated on Sarlona (and Sarlona is a whole continent, not just Adar and Soviet Riedra).

Flavour-wise, it's impossible to say which setting is better, since such things are purely subjective. I really like Eberron, but I don't know much about Dark Sun.

[true_shinken]

Flavour-wise, it's impossible to say which setting is better, since such things are purely subjective. I really like Eberron, but I don't know much about Dark Sun.
If you get a chance to play Dark Sun, do it. I think you will enjoy it greatly.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'd have to hand the flavor to Eberron, but only because Eberron represents the canonization of a lot of what I've always said about D&D (namely, that medieval stasis is retarded).

[Zaydos]

Well back in second edition they were level 20 Wizard (defilers)/20 psionicists + whatever amount of "Dragon" levels they had (1-7, with Borys having all 10 I believe).

I don't think they officially converted them to 3.5 but they would be pretty monstrous there I'd imagine. Definitely into the epic levels (though probably not in the 40s).

Also back in 2nd edition people seemed to just have better stats on Athas (5d4 vs 3d6) which, if carried forward, would also make a huge difference.

If we're talking 4th ed, then it probably doesn't matter as much since there is a hard cap on how strong people can get at level 30 so it really amounts to who can throw the most high level people at the other.

Never statted them out for 3.5 but they made the base LA 1 or 2 (everybody had a net ability bonus, and psionic powers) and they did do Dragon Kings in 3.5 as an epic PrC that required high (I think 9th) level psionics and magic and maybe even required Epic Spellcasting. So 3.X it's safe to say the Dragon Kings are epic level mages with high level psionics. Also the official (Dragon Magazine) 3.X defiling system grants free metamagic effects/metamagic reducers.

[Morty]

I agree with the "apples vs. oranges" assesment. Eberron and Dark Sun are completely different settings with completely different goals and atmosphere. There's no real means of comparison that doesn't boil down to purely personal preferences.

[EccentricCircle]

this is a very interesting question.

first I should say that I know a lot more about Eberron than DarkSun, i've read through the new Dark Sun book for 4e but have not yet had opertunity to play it, alas. so I won't comment on which I prefer from a flavour point of view.

in terms to total war its tricky. the two worlds have very differnt cosmologies and the ways in which they interact are intriguing to say the least.

Eberron has far more advanced technology. their renaisance steampunk culture would seem to be more militarily powerful than the stone age / bronze age technology of athas. however the technology of Eberron is almost entirely based on magical principles which may not hold true on Athas.

can you march an army of warforged through the rift onto Athas without the arcane energies that animate them defiling the world?
what are the other implications of this? if you were to fly a house Lyrandar airship to Tyr to drop alchemists fire from the sky would you find that you were also drawing the life force from all of the people down below to power the ship. or would Eberronic Magitech just cease to function because there isn't enough life force around to defile that much.

would defilers be able to get their hands on dragonshards and use those to power their magic instead of nature?

what if the forces of Athas were to invade Eberron. would defiler magic have the same effects or not? the effects of epic defiling sound an aweful lot like the Day of Mourning.

what about psionics? would an influx of psionic soldiers from athas disturb the dream of the age? and for good or worse? what do the Quori think about it?
would the gatekeepers, seeing a vast army of psions emerge from a rift think that the seals had been broken and the Daelkyr returned?

then you come to the dragons. as I understand it there is only one of them on Athas and it seems that mortals can ascend to dragonhood. how does that fit into the Eberronic Prophesy? is the dragon of Tyr some missing piece of the puzzle that Argonessen has been brooding on for millenia?
if so then a legion of warforged courtesy of the industrialised nations of Khorvaire might be the least of the Sorceror Kings troubles as the rulers of Argonessen decide to secure this new clue.

these questions are all rhetorical. so i'm not hoping that the parameters of the excercise will be clarified or anything like that.
I think that the combined cosmologies would make a great game. add in some Spelljamming ships built to the principles of Eberron artifice and we're set.

[Zaydos]

-snip-

Well some of your questions were answered by 2e Planescape. Other worlds only have Preserving, or more they found a way to use magic without draining life force. Defiling still does all its damage if used somewhere else.

As for the Dream and the dragons I can't answer, although those would be interesting to explore. Dark Sun dragons are just Epic wizard/psions who start to transform in theory.

As far as I can tell part of the design intent with Eberron was no epic level people, hence even the leaders of the Daelkyr are only CR 20. That rather puts them at a disadvantage, even while it is part of what makes Eberron a fun setting. This means the worst there is to worry about are some great wyrm dragons if they get involved (and their involvement might make it Eberron + Dark Sun versus dragons).

It's the power difference in the top echelons that make me pause to give this to Eberron. A sorcerer-king can destroy a whole army single-handed if they get personally involved and when you start fire bombing their cities they will get involved.

Also what time for Dark Sun? Before or after the first Prism Pentad book? Or after they Deus Ex Machina'd the Dragon out of existence? That makes a big difference as if the Dragon got involved he could tear through Eberron, and even if they managed to take him out that would just let his ex-boss out who was much worse and much more powerful.

[Greenish]

If you get a chance to play Dark Sun, do it. I think you will enjoy it greatly.Will jump at opportunity. :smallcool:

[Comet]

When it comes to flavour, Dark Sun wins for me.

Eberron is just too much of everything. I'm no expert on Eberron, but from what I've seen the writers just keep throwing crazy-awesome things into the world until it almost bursts at the seams and then tell you to do whatever you want with it.

Dark Sun has a clear story to it and a clear set of themes that work well with the world. It has a sort of calm confidence to it that newer settings just lack.

If I'm buying a pre-written setting, I don't want to hear "do whatever you want". I can already do that, thanks muchly. I want to get new ideas, not just a remix of old ones, and a concrete set of themes to play out.

Mind, as I said before, my experiences with Eberron are limited. I haven't read all the material out there and haven't actually played a single game set in the setting (aside from DDOnline and that one RTS game on the PC).

Bottom line: Eberron tries too hard to be cool, Dark Sun is limited in scope but does its own thing better than anything else. It's really a whole new world without abandoning the basics of what D&D has always been about.

[Choco]

Dudes, could y'all imagine the chaos that the Dark Sun defilers would wreak upon Eberron and it's bountiful life were they to enter that world?

[Thant]

Also, divine. Athas is far poorer in that department too, seeing how all the deities left, the world is somewhat in "spiritual shambles" (Dark Lens & elemental power are simply not enough against full divine).

And another point: wouldn't the invading force from Ebberon instantly have an upper hand in combat seeing how their very presence would suck life from Athas for miles around their magitech armies? All they would have to do is to secure their logistic lines to the portal and back and proceed to defile Athas on a scale that was never seen before and loot whatever was left after...and no one knows if defiling would have any effect on another plane of existence (it is DS exclusive).

Psionics, Dragon Kings, stronger characters or whatever, Athas would be pretty much owned by Ebb (which I generally don't like :smallyuk: ). Some may survive through cunning but I believe that most would even embrace this opportunity to flee their forsaken land for a chance for a better life on another world.

Conclusion: Ebberon one, Dark Sun zero.

[Psyren]

Power-wise - doesn't Eberron have no epic casters? That would give Dark Sun the edge in a conflict I think. And I forget whether divine magic exists in Dark Sun or what form it takes.

On the other hand, an incursion by Dark Sun might cause Eberron's aloof superdragons and theoretical deities to take action.

Anyway, as far as preference I like Eberron better, though I do like Dark Sun too. (Certainly I rank both of them above Faerun.)

[true_shinken]

Dudes, could y'all imagine the chaos that the Dark Sun defilers would wreak upon Eberron and it's bountiful life were they to enter that world?
Considering how big Eberron is compared to the world of Dark Sun, I think you're greatly exaggerating

[Chen]

Dudes, could y'all imagine the chaos that the Dark Sun defilers would wreak upon Eberron and it's bountiful life were they to enter that world?

In the books the sorceror kings (and the dragon) were able to drain the life out of creatures as well as plants. I think the 2nd ed rules were a tad absurd (the defiling damage done by a level 9 spell was almost as much as the spell itself if I recall), but if the defilers came to Eberron it'd be pretty bad. Not to mention all the Preservers on Athas CAN also defile. Many wouldn't and would probably die in for the principles but I can't imagine all of them would.

As someone else mentioned, its the high level people that are the problem. If you removed the Sorceror king from the equation I'd have no doubt an Eberron army could easily take one of the Dark Sun cities.

[OldFart]

Flavor: I'd choose The Big Sleep over Beyond Thunderdome any day.

Battle: Large, populous rail-era industrial society vs. smaller, less populous stone-age society (who some repute to be more physically capable warriors). This sounds familiar...and I'm pretty sure it was fairly decisive.

Additional theoretical question: If the portal instead opened in the Mournland, would most of the inhabitants of either world notice?

[Choco]

Considering how big Eberron is compared to the world of Dark Sun, I think you're greatly exaggerating

Size of the world doesn't matter at all in this case, as defiling spells have a limited radius anyway. It's the abundance of life within that radius.

[true_shinken]

Size of the world doesn't matter at all in this case, as defiling spells have a limited radius anyway. It's the abundance of life within that radius.
Of course it matters. Athas had an abundance of life before; it's just so destroyed now because it's small.
In a big world, you could destroy the defilers before they did any damage.

[Choco]

Of course it matters. Athas had an abundance of life before; it's just so destroyed now because it's small.
In a big world, you could destroy the defilers before they did any damage.

You could try, but the point is that their power grows exponentially the more life there is around. And as big of a numbers advantage as Eberron would have, they can't all be crammed into 1 place. Come to think of it, if they WERE, the defiler would just drain all of them too...

And even better, if they resurrected the technology that drained THEIR FRIGGIN SUN and directed it at Eberron... Wow that would not be a bad idea, drain all the life from Eberron and use it to return Athas to it's golden age!

[true_shinken]

You could try, but the point is that their power grows exponentially the more life there is around. And as big of a numbers advantage as Eberron would have, they can't all be crammed into 1 place. Come to think of it, if they WERE, the defiler would just drain all of them too...
That's... not how defiling works.

[Choco]

That's... not how defiling works.

As Chen pointed out, it is in the books.

[true_shinken]

As Chen pointed out, it is in the books.
No, Chen mentioned something about the power of the Sorcerer-Kings in 2nd edition.

[Kaww]

Power-wise - doesn't Eberron have no epic casters? That would give Dark Sun the edge in a conflict I think. And I forget whether divine magic exists in Dark Sun or what form it takes.

On the other hand, an incursion by Dark Sun might cause Eberron's aloof superdragons and theoretical deities to take action.

Anyway, as far as preference I like Eberron better, though I do like Dark Sun too. (Certainly I rank both of them above Faerun.)

From what I remember about the stories about destruction of Xen'dric Dragons have epic magic and plenty of it. Titans had it also, since they managed to dislodge an entire plane of existence...

[Choco]

Read the Dark Sun books. They are entertaining.

Also, no one said which edition this hypothetical battle is taking place in, and in those cases I find it more fun to just use fluff.

[Psyren]

No, Chen mentioned something about the power of the Sorcerer-Kings in 2nd edition.

To be fair, the only official common ground we have between the two settings is 4e... which probably wouldn't be a very interesting contest.

[true_shinken]

To be fair, the only official common ground we have between the two settings is 4e... which probably wouldn't be a very interesting contest.
It would be a tie, because NPCs are all the same in 4e anyway :smalltongue:

[Choco]

It would be a tie, because NPCs are all the same in 4e anyway :smalltongue:

Actually Eberron would win in that case, cause they got MORE generic NPC's

[Zaydos]

Also Dragon Magazine did have an official update for Dark Sun to 3.5. Even so it was a very limited update and didn't really fully cover Dark Sun.

Also I don't have the proper Dragon Magazine for 3.5 Dragon Kings available at the moment.

[Raistlin82]

I'm a big fan of Dragonlance since I was 9, and I'm also very fond of Forgotten Realms.

This is to say... maybe I'm the most qualified and neutral judge for this dispute, since I only got to know both Eberron and Dark Sun very recently (4E-recently).

Flavour wise... I always thought Eberron was kinda "cheap" and "childish". Magical trains and all that, it's the kind of fantasy that wouldn't be out of place in a child's book. Also, it's too "pop" for my taste... it's like the Britney Spears of D&D settings.
Dark Sun, instead, is totally wicked. Original, savage, unconventional. And it reminds me of Fallout, Hokuto no Ken, Dune...

Dark Sun wins the flavour dispute by a lot, in my book.

Speaking of a large scale fight... well, it's superior organization and equipment against sheer ruthless badassery. I guess it's a tie.

[true_shinken]

Flavour wise... I always thought Eberron was kinda "cheap" and "childish". Magical trains and all that, it's the kind of fantasy that wouldn't be out of place in a child's book.
Yeah, using magic for actual useful stuff instead of killing monsters with it. Incredibly childish. :smallamused:


Dark Sun, instead, is totally wicked. Original, savage, unconventional. And it reminds me of Fallout, Hokuto no Ken, Dune...

Dark Sun wins the flavour dispute by a lot, in my book.
I love Dark Sun. But calling it original is just a plain lie. You yourself mentioned three examples of settings very similar to Dark Sun, two of them released before Dark Sun.

[Fox Box Socks]

Epic-level humanoids are rather rare in Eberron. Epic-level threats are a dime a dozen. The Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, the dragons of Argonnessen, the giants of Xen'drik, the Rakshasa Rajahs...the number of amount of epic-level stuff in Eberron is staggering.

All Dark Sun has are 7 Sorcerer-Kings and a single dragon. That's it.

Also, shinken is right, Dark Sun is by no means an original setting. It draws from a number of sources, the largest of which are Conan the Barbarian and John Carter of Mars.

[Raistlin82]

Yeah, using magic for actual useful stuff instead of killing monsters with it. Incredibly childish. :smallamused:
No.
Having such a limited imagination as to not being able to make up a more belieavable "fictional" world than one that has our real life products and comforts, but just puts magic as a paper-thin disguised substitute of technology, by means of "copy-replace".
Seriously, it's the kind of fantasy world that a parent could make up on the spot while trying to put their child to sleep.
"Do they have trains, daddy?"
"Uh... sure, why not. They have trains. But they're not powered by electricity."
"Yaaawn... they're not?"
"Um... no. They go with... err... MAGICAL ELECTRICITY... by... (remembers Back To The Future ending) capturing lightnings!"

No need to review on that, no need to perfect it, no need to make an effort. Just pack it and send it to WotC... it's just "perfect" as is, daddy.
EXTREMELY childish and a complete wallbanger. :smallannoyed:


I love Dark Sun. But calling it original is just a plain lie. You yourself mentioned three examples of settings very similar to Dark Sun, two of them released before Dark Sun.
First of all... "the only one who never copied by somebody else was Adam". Meaning, all great books, movies, anything that you can think of took inspiration from some other previous work. Inception is copied from Scrooge McDuck (http://www.cracked.com/article_19021_5-amazing-things-invented-by-donald-duck-seriously.html) (seriously).
But Dark Sun doesn't copy. Dark Sun is one of those that makes its own niche without blatantly taking something from another setting/work. It creates its own flavour and mythos. So, no... original it is.

That being said... aren't we talking about D&D? Aren't we talking about fantasy? Yeah, well nobody ever did that with elves, orks and halflings. That's why it's EXTREMELY original.

[Psyren]

It would be a tie, because NPCs are all the same in 4e anyway :smalltongue:

Yes, exactly :smallbiggrin:


Also, it's too "pop" for my taste... it's like the Britney Spears of D&D settings.

Uh, Faerun wins that one by a mile, dude.

[true_shinken]

Also, shinken is right, Dark Sun is by no means an original setting. It draws from a number of sources, the largest of which are Conan the Barbarian and John Carter of Mars.
I have a fun story. I was doing a 'videogame plot' course and our final work was to design the plot a game with an ecological focus. My first thought was a world were magic destroyed nature, so magic users were hated and hunted - technology quickly advanced (you have trains and good handguns, for example), but then people saw technology also hurt the planet. It was going to be a beat'em-up sidescroller, similar to Final Fight, except in a fantasy steampunk setting.
So basically, it was Dark Sun + Eberron in a way.
The plot was that of a badass orphan that tries to survive by getting jobs as a bodyguard and then meets a druid girl. Druids have found a way to make magic without killing the planet, but people don't know it and are trying to kill them. The industrial lords are the enemy, as they try to kill the druid girl before the world realizes there is hope on magic and they don't need their tech anymore.
That game would have been awesome. We simply don't get enough fantasy beat'em ups.
Sorry for sidetracking.



"Um... no. They go with... err... MAGICAL ELECTRICITY... by... (remembers Back To The Future ending) capturing lightnings!" (...) EXTREMELY childish and a complete wallbanger. :smallannoyed:
Fantastic. So you're calling Neil Gaiman childish now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardust_(novel))? Neil Gaiman wrote a 'complete wallbanger' as well?
OK. I'm sure bat poo producing a ball of fire is alright, though. That's not 'childish' or a 'wall banger' is it?



First of all... "the only one who never copied by somebody else was Adam". Meaning, all great books, movies, anything that you can think of took inspiration from some other previous work.
And I'm not saying Dark Sun isn't good. I'm saying it isn't original. And it isn't.



That being said... aren't we talking about D&D? Aren't we talking about fantasy? Yeah, well nobody ever did that with elves, orks and halflings. That's why it's EXTREMELY original.
So it's original because instead of renaming stuff like they do in Dune... they don't rename it. OK.

[Comet]

Neither Eberron or Dark Sun are 'original' in the sense that people in this thread are referring to the term, they are both about mixing and matching existing things to make something new. I think Dark Sun does it with more style, but opinions are lame anyway.

Speaking of originality, I can't think of any D&D settings that could fit the word.
Okay, Planescape might. Not in its entirety but some parts are definitely hard to trace to their origin.
And Spelljammer. Spelljammer is just silly, which is why I like it so :smallbiggrin:

[true_shinken]

Neither Eberron or Dark Sun are 'original' in the sense that people in this thread are referring to the term, they are both about mixing and matching existing things to make something new. I think Dark Sun does it with more style, but opinions are lame anyway.
I don't recall anyone calling Eberron original in this thread, actually.

[Comet]

I don't recall anyone calling Eberron original in this thread, actually.

Yeah, you might be right. Maybe I misread or something, I dunno.
And I'd say that they are both original in the way that they mix stuff that hasn't really been mixed before, especially Dark Sun. Just not original in the sense of making entirely new stuff up.

[Fox Box Socks]

Since we're going down that road, neither Planescape nor Spelljammer are original settings either. Spelljammer draws on the mythology of the Age of Explorations (Here Be Dragons), merging it with Ptolemaic views of the cosmos (ideas of floating crystal spheres containing solar systems have been kicking around since Aristotle). As for Planescape? Well, Sigil basically is Victorian London (cosmopolitan steampunk hodgepodge of cultures that it is), and the chant was lifted in its entirety from 16th century thieves' cant (which is why everyone talks like Basher from Ocean's 11).

There are no unique settings. Everything draws on older material.

[MeeposFire]

I don't recall anyone calling Eberron original in this thread, actually.

In fact the Eberron books are very clear in what their influences are.

By the way Eberron would totally win assuming the power groups in the setting did not want the DS to win.

Dark Sun armies are using lesser technology (poor weapon and poor armor), mostly served by mindless undead, less training, a pathological hatred of mages (at the army levels defilers are hated and there are only a limited number), and less healing.

Biggest advantage they will tend to be tougher and nastier individually than the Eberron guys.

Eberron has a big advantage in military supply (artificers anybody and dragonmoark houses), military tactics, and support (spellcasters).

[WitchSlayer]

I've DM'd Dark Sun, and it was a ton of fun, I basically portray everyone as a bad-ass just for managing to live in such a harsh environment.

I'd go with Dark Sun personally.

[sonofzeal]

Eberron for both.

Flavour-wise, Dark Sun hits a fantastic note, but that one note is pretty much all it has. There's something to be said for solidarity of vision, but if someone tells me we're playing a Dark Sun campaign, I've got a pretty good idea already what to expect in the beginning, middle, and end. The characters and challenges change, but the overall campaign flavour is going to be pretty much set from the get-go. For Eberron though, it all depends where you go. If we start in Xen'drix then I know what to expect there flavour-wise, but that'll change if we visit Breland or the Mournland or the Talenta Planes. The campaign could have one solid note if we stay in one given area, or it could evolve as we progress around the world. Few of the individual notes that Eberron hits are as evocative as that of Dark Sun, but they're good ones, and it hits dozens. There is more sheer flavour to enjoy in Eberron.

Power-wise, Khorvaire is thriving while Tyr is dying. The Sorcerer-Kings are massively powerful, but the dragons of Argonnessen can literally shatter continents. As for the rank and file, Eberron has powerful armies wielding plentiful low-level magic to good effect, and I'm not sure any army in Dark Sun can compete with that. If you take the Dragons out of the picture, then the Sorcerer-Kings become the tipping point. I have no idea how powerful they actually are, but I'm reasonably certain that there'd only be a small handful of Eberron humans who could compete near their level. It's possible that if the Sorcerer-Kings really got involved in a big way, they could do considerable damage. But Khorvaire has comparatively-unlimited resources, and great expertise at wielding low-level power with finesse. As rough and determined as Dark Sun residents are, I don't think they compare to the raw creative ingenuity of Eberron residents.

[Fox Box Socks]

The major weakness with Dark Sun is the same as the major weakness in oWoD: metaplot kicks your ass 9 times out of 10. The fact that there's a compelling narrative woven into the fabric of the setting, but it can get a bit repititive after a while; do a few odd jobs, explore ancient ruins, learn about Athas' past, knock off a few Sorcerer-Kings, slay The Dragon, save the world (or, you know, rule it). In addition, the world (while well thought out and dripping with flavor) is, well, tiny. No one really knows what's beyond the Tyr region, but all signs point to the city states being the last bastion of "civilization" on the entire planet.

Eberron, by contrast, has 4 continents, 13 countries, and countless dangling plot threads, any number of which are begging to be pulled.

The advantage of kitchen sink settings is that more games can be run in them.

[LOTRfan]

If it came down to soldier vs. soldier, things get a little interesting. Eberron is mostly low level, correct? Although they have more soldiers, in AThas you have to have at least 3 levels of warrior just to survive (and the commoner class does not exist in Athas). if Eberron follows the War rules in the DMG, the majority of the army is 1st level commoner "conscripts," with a portion of paid 1st level warrior "soldiers."

I think Eberron would win, but with heavy losses.

[sonofzeal]

If it came down to soldier vs. soldier, things get a little interesting. Eberron is mostly low level, correct? Although they have more soldiers, in AThas you have to have at least 3 levels of warrior just to survive (and the commoner class does not exist in Athas). if Eberron follows the War rules in the DMG, the majority of the army is 1st level commoner "conscripts," with a portion of paid 1st level warrior "soldiers."

I think Eberron would win, but with heavy losses.
Eberron armies (like everything else Eberron) are a bit different. In the last war, one side built entire armies of low-level constructs to do the fighting for them, and another side created legions of undead. Halflings use velociraptors instead of horses, and there are fortresses the size of small cities that can move under their own power. I don't think "following the War rules in the DMG" is high on Eberron's list of priorities.

That said, yes, the vast majority of Eberron is low level, with even lvl 5's being fairly uncommon. The average Athasian, next to the average Khorvarian, is going to look like Gaston (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhG9hKiplfQ) next to, I dunno, Aladdin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPMHbUTcUXE). Or more precisely, this dude (http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/6/564606_45698_front.jpg) next to this guy (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Stuff/Pants.jpg). But something tells me not to underestimate the smaller guy.

Even the mookiest Khorvarian is going to have equipment the Athasian could only dream of. Good solid weapons and armor and plentiful, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for standard infantry to have minor magical support, perhaps bardsong and similar many-target buffs, or a couple minor potions... while the Athasian might be lucky if he's even seen a full suit of metal armor in his life, and would likely have worse equipment than the Khorvarian message-boys. That, compounded with the probable hundred-to-one odds, is likely to turn any Athasian army invasion into a complete disaster.

[Zaydos]

I think the equipment difference would sort itself out quickly. The difference in average character level would make Athasians win the first few skirmishes before either side has decided that the other is a threat (scratch that; Athasians make a habit of considering any thing coming from planar portals a threat since they defeated a large scale assault from the Githyanki). Actually the Athasians are unlikely to attack at first, waiting till they figure out that these intruders are not part of a multiverse conquering army but just from one prime with plentiful resources. Back on the gear matter, though, the Athasians would get their gear quickly the same way D&D characters have always acquired gear, by looting dead enemies.

Now I don't think Athas has a chance unless the impossible happened and the Sorcerer-Kings allied again (the last time they did so was against their creator in a battle that created a small plane, after they had already destroyed most of the world).

But this also seems to be assuming Eberron presents a united front. Would it?

[LOTRfan]

The Four Kingdoms (not including poor Cyre) have shown that they are at least capable of uneasy peace. The Quori want Eberron. Why would they allow the Athasians to gain a foothold? I can see Sarlona aiding Khorvaire. Of course, the Dragons could see the arrival of the Athasians as an important part of the Draconic Prophecy, and in that case, the Eberronians (Eberronites? :smallconfused:) are doomed to failure.

[Lord_Gareth]

Additionally, there's at least one city-state in Eberron where being brought back as an intelligent undead is part of the military contract (and sought by average citizens as well). So you'd need to kill all of their troops at least twice.

[Shatteredtower]

Seriously, it's the kind of fantasy world that a parent could make up on the spot while trying to put their child to sleep.
Shows how little you know of imagination, parenting, or telling stories to children.

[WitchSlayer]

I think it would depend on who is invading who. If Eberron invades Dark Sun, then it will be like invading Russia during winter.

Except it's always winter.

[Lord_Gareth]

I think it would depend on who is invading who. If Eberron invades Dark Sun, then it will be like invading Russia during winter.

Except it's always winter.

Ring of Sustenance and Boots of the Winterlands (go go Endure Elements!) are really cheap.

[MeeposFire]

With the dragon mark houses of storm and hospitality you would have what you need to survive Arthas.

Also anybody think that a not so insignificant portion of DS would leave for Eberron due to its plentiful resources? Why fight for SK that cares nothing for you when you can easily make a new life in Eberron? And I am sure that the armies of Khorvaire should be scary enough that the intimidation angle equals out a bit.

[WitchSlayer]

Ring of Sustenance and Boots of the Winterlands (go go Endure Elements!) are really cheap.

Wouldn't non-artifact magic items be like defiling factories in Dark Sun?

[MeeposFire]

Wouldn't non-artifact magic items be like defiling factories in Dark Sun?

Well the DS people would not be making the items.

There is no indication that the arcane magic employed by Eberron would defile (or not) even in DS.

Even if it did they would probably choose to preserve.

[Zaydos]

1) 2e Planescape: Officially no non-Athasian magic defiles. Talks about it in the Planeswalker's Handbook if you need an exact source.

2) Also Athas had magic items; they were rare, but they didn't defile just by existing.

3) Most of Eberron's magic runs off of elementals... you know the things that Athasians use for divine powers. So no it's not defiling.

[sonofzeal]

I think the equipment difference would sort itself out quickly. The difference in average character level would make Athasians win the first few skirmishes before either side has decided that the other is a threat (scratch that; Athasians make a habit of considering any thing coming from planar portals a threat since they defeated a large scale assault from the Githyanki). Actually the Athasians are unlikely to attack at first, waiting till they figure out that these intruders are not part of a multiverse conquering army but just from one prime with plentiful resources. Back on the gear matter, though, the Athasians would get their gear quickly the same way D&D characters have always acquired gear, by looting dead enemies.
You can't loot on any significant scale if you don't win. I strongly suspect, were Athasians to invade Khorvaire, that the advantages I've outlined would prevent any major victories, or at least render them unlikely. Were the war to drag on endlessly, that might change.

Anyway the humans of Eberron have, I believe, already waged a major war like the one we're proposing, where one side was individually far stronger and better trained but faced more numerous and better-equipped forced. That would be the fall of Dhakaan. The hobgoblins of Dhakaan are highly comparable to Athasians in many way, but still lost for the same reasons people are proposing Eberron would win over Dark Sun - equipment and numbers.


But this also seems to be assuming Eberron presents a united front. Would it?
The human nations likely would, if they saw it as a significant threat. It's possible one would ally with them for potential political advantage, and my suspicion is that within a year (if it lasted that long), elements of every nation would be manipulating or attempting to manipulate the Athasians in all sorts of directions. Khorvaire has a much more vigorous nobility and courtly intrigue society that would lend itself to this quite nicely. I'm sure there are forces within Athas that would try to do the reverse, but given the sheer scale of Khorvaire and the difference in tone and political circles, I'd say overall they'd be more likely to be manipulated than to be manipulators.

If Defilers entered, Gatekeepers would come down upon them like the fist of an angry god. I've never really seen much about how much power the Gatekeepers actually wield, but they thwarted an invasion of an entire race of CR20 creatures, and their army of monsters - Mindflayers and Tsochari and probably Beholders too. If they still have anything like that level of badassitude, a handful of high level casters are going to have their work cut out for them.

Sarlonna I see staying out of it, unless they see political advantage. The Quori would likely just see the Athasians as more fodder. Argonnessen.... who the heck knows? We have to assume Argonnessen stays out of it, otherwise both settings get nuked from orbit and nobody wins. They aren't exactly the kind for half-measures. What's left when Argonnessen is through would make old Athas look like Narnia.

[Toptomcat]

If we're talking political cohesion Athas has way more problems in that department than Eberron does. It's like comparing post-WWII Europe with modern Sub-Saharan Africa.

[MeeposFire]

Sarlona does all it can to keep the nations of Khorvaire separate. A combined Khorvaire would prevent a slight threat to it. A threat such as an invasion of all the SKs of Dark Sun would give a single threat to all the nations and they would band together against the threat.

In order to win the sorcerer kings would have to play an intrigue game of pitting various nations against each other while also presenting a united threat. That would be a difficult proposition since the SK do not work together unless they are personally threatened. An invasion of another world could be a hard sell to work together for any length of time.

[herceg]

That being said... aren't we talking about D&D? Aren't we talking about fantasy? Yeah, well nobody ever did that with elves, orks and halflings. That's why it's EXTREMELY original.

Yep, because orkish druids banishing godlike aberrations, (un)dead worshiping elves (not to forget dead-worshiping horsenomad elves), ancient hobgoblin empires, 2 million years world history etc are typical/cliché in fantasy :)

[sonofzeal]

What if we expanded this to include Ravenloft, Faerun, The Realms, and World of Greyhawk? Any speculation? (Edit) ....oh, and Kingdom of Kalamar. :smalltongue:

(Planescape is excluded, not because of lack of awesome, but because it would be the default medium the others would interact through anyway. For the moment let's leave the Great Wheel and the Lady of Pain out of it though.)

[hamlet]

Kalamar kicks both their backsides!

Long Live Kabori!!!












OK, I'll be quiet now.:smallredface:

[sonofzeal]

Kalamar kicks both their backsides!

Long Live Kabori!!!












OK, I'll be quiet now.:smallredface:
Added. ^^

I know nothing about Kalamar though. What's your analysis, how would it fare in open war against the others?

[Greenish]

3) Most of Eberron's magic runs off of elementals... you know the things that Athasians use for divine powers. So no it's not defiling.Most magic unique to Eberron, yes, but only a small fraction of the items are actually powered by elementals (because binding them is expensive, so the best option is to bind them into something that has more effect than most wearable magic items).

Anyway the humans of Eberron have, I believe, already waged a major war like the one we're proposing, where one side was individually far stronger and better trained but faced more numerous and better-equipped forced.Well, I'm not sure the Dhakaani were worse equipped than the early human settlers, they were just very low in numbers and divided into small tribes.

If Defilers entered, Gatekeepers would come down upon them like the fist of an angry god. I've never really seen much about how much power the Gatekeepers actually wield, but they thwarted an invasion of an entire race of CR20 creatures, and their army of monsters - Mindflayers and Tsochari and probably Beholders too. If they still have anything like that level of badassitude, a handful of high level casters are going to have their work cut out for them.The Gatekeeper victory cost them almost everything, and what was left has been in slow but steady decay ever since. They do have some allies though: Wardens of the Wood and Ashbound would certainly fight against the Defilers.

On the other hand, Greensingers seek to promote interplanar connections, so who knows what they'll do, and they might well have some high level Planar Shepherds lounging around in Thelanis.

Children of the Winter would probably see Athas as some twisted ideal. They're actively trying to bring on a huge catastrophe (the titular "winter") to weed out the weak, much like what happened on Athas…

Sarlonna I see staying out of it, unless they see political advantage. The Quori would likely just see the Athasians as more fodder.
Sarlona does all it can to keep the nations of Khorvaire separate. A combined Khorvaire would prevent a slight threat to it.I'm not sure it'd go like that. The Quo'ri all but worship Status Quo (hence the name? :smalltongue:): they don't want the great wheel to turn, and thus seek to prevent all change in both Dal'Quor and Eberron. A huge planar rift to an unknown plane and the Defilers coming to Eberron would most certainly be against their interests.

Argonnessen.... who the heck knows? We have to assume Argonnessen stays out of it, otherwise both settings get nuked from orbit and nobody wins. They aren't exactly the kind for half-measures. What's left when Argonnessen is through would make old Athas look like Narnia.Well, the dragons taught the giants the magic used to stop the quo'ri invasion and stop Dal'Quor from becoming coterminous with Eberron ever again.

They also taught the first Gatekeeper druids as a response against the Xoriat invasion (way before it even started, since the Draconic Prophecy is like that). The Chamber still counts Gatekeepers as allies, so I don't see them staying out, though they've gained some finesse since ending the Age of Giants.


[Edit]: And we shouldn't discount Aerenal, the only nation to ever defy the dragons and still around to tell the tale (even if it's mostly that they didn't piss the dragons off too badly). The Undying Court is one of the most powerful entities still at large in Eberron, and Aerenal and Argonnessen have been allied before, when something they both objected strongly enough arose.

[hamlet]

Added. ^^

I know nothing about Kalamar though. What's your analysis, how would it fare in open war against the others?

You see, I was just trying to inject yet more inanity into an otherwise ridiculous conversation. Like trying to figure out if a Roman Legionare could win in a fight against a ninja.

HOWEVER.

You want an actual analysis?

Flavor: Kalamar wins big time. Over both Ebberon and Dark Sun in overall terms. Kalamar is, to me, simply the best realize WORLD for gaming, surpassing 99% of others. Harn might come close, it's been a long while since I've read it.

Stand up fight?: Tough to say. Tellenians (those from the continent of Tellene in the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign) are, of course, mostly 0-level commoners, and high level characters are . . . absent. However, what Kalamar has in spades is magnificent bastards. Several of them. At least one of them rules what is equivalent to late period Roman Empire with all it resources and is almost single handedly turning around the decadance and degradation of the last 5 emperors.

His sidekick is an even grander and more magnificent bastard, a diviner elf over 1000 years old (old enough to remember the founding of said empire) who is fanatically devoted to the ascendancy of said emperor and the empire. He is, possibly, one of half a dozen high level characters, though he is not statted out even in general. It is hinted, though, that he is at least level 20.

I think Kalamar would be able to play both Ebberon and Athas like finger puppets, but not win in a front on battle.

[Lord_Gareth]

What if we expanded this to include Ravenloft, Faerun, The Realms, and World of Greyhawk? Any speculation? (Edit) ....oh, and Kingdom of Kalamar. :smalltongue:

(Planescape is excluded, not because of lack of awesome, but because it would be the default medium the others would interact through anyway. For the moment let's leave the Great Wheel and the Lady of Pain out of it though.)

Ravenloft, ah, doesn't invade anyone. They kind of can't. Their greatest assets are all trapped within their own Realms, and as for anyone else walking in, they can simply seal the borders (and the few realms that you can enter despite them using construct soldiers or undead or what have you will result in your army getting spanked by an epic level, unkillable spellcaster with absolute control over his own domain).

[sonofzeal]

Most magic unique to Eberron, yes, but only a small fraction of the items are actually powered by elementals (because binding them is expensive, so the best option is to bind them into something that has more effect than most wearable magic items).
This was already addressed. Planescape material says that non-Athasian magic items do not cause defilement.


Well, I'm not sure the Dhakaani were worse equipped than the early human settlers, they were just very low in numbers and divided into small tribes.
The Dhakaani had an empire spanning most of the continent. Just find a picture of the Six Kings of Graywall, thousand-foot-tall monuments to Dhakaani Emperors. Even by the time of the Shaking Emperor, I believe they still formed one unified nation. They only degenerated into small tribes after the humans had won and the empire was gone, seemingly forever.


Another possible analogy for Khorvaire vs Athas might be the Gladiator uprisings of ancient Rome. Small number of ludicrously highly trained warriors in peak physical condition, against a much larger number of well armed and well armored soldiers. And the story never really ends well for the gladiators.

[Incompleat]

You see, I was just trying to inject yet more inanity into an otherwise ridiculous conversation. Like trying to figure out if a Roman Legionare could win in a fight against a ninja.

In a straight fight? Legionaries were professional fighters, and ninjas were spies and occasional assassins. Guess ;)

Ahem. Ok, back to the issue: Dark Sun is one of my favourite settings, but I do not know very much about Eberron, and so I cannot really comment about their respective coolness or power levels.

But in any case, when it comes to flavour Spelljammer beats all other settings, hands down, and when it comes to power it can carpet-bomb them from orbit with giant space hamster droppings any day of the week :)

[Greenish]

This was already addressed. Planescape material says that non-Athasian magic items do not cause defilement.I noticed, I'm just pointing out that most magic items in Eberron do not have elementals bound to them (the gnomes of Zilargo being the only ones who know how to bind elementals).

The Dhakaani had an empire spanning most of the continent. Nobody who has seen the Six Kings of Graywall, thousand-foot-tall monuments to Dhakaani Emperors. Even by the time of the Shaking Emperor, I believe they still formed one unified nation. They only degenerated into small tribes after the humans had won and the empire was gone, seemingly forever.I've always thought the Xoriat invasion (and the in-fighting of it's aftermath) shattered the Empire before humans had serious presence in mainland Khorvaire, though admittedly my Eberron knowledge is spotty.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Ravenloft, ah, doesn't invade anyone. [/i]).


the denizens of ravenloft do not invade anyone. ravenloft itself pillages all worlds for its next barony.

[Lord_Gareth]

the denizens of ravenloft do not invade anyone. ravenloft itself pillages all worlds for its next barony.

Yeah, but there's nothing anyone can do about that.

[sonofzeal]

Flavor: Kalamar wins big time. Over both Ebberon and Dark Sun in overall terms. Kalamar is, to me, simply the best realize WORLD for gaming, surpassing 99% of others. Harn might come close, it's been a long while since I've read it.
What's awesome about its flavour? Dark Sun has this bleak postapocalyptic dystopia vibe, and Eberron is this exciting magepunk swashbuckling exotic place (if the phrase "airship pirates" doesn't do anything for you, you're made of stone). What's Kalamar's selling point flavour-wise, what note is it hitting?


Stand up fight?: Tough to say. Tellenians (those from the continent of Tellene in the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign) are, of course, mostly 0-level commoners, and high level characters are . . . absent. However, what Kalamar has in spades is magnificent bastards. Several of them. At least one of them rules what is equivalent to late period Roman Empire with all it resources and is almost single handedly turning around the decadance and degradation of the last 5 emperors.

His sidekick is an even grander and more magnificent bastard, a diviner elf over 1000 years old (old enough to remember the founding of said empire) who is fanatically devoted to the ascendancy of said emperor and the empire. He is, possibly, one of half a dozen high level characters, though he is not statted out even in general. It is hinted, though, that he is at least level 20.

I think Kalamar would be able to play both Ebberon and Athas like finger puppets, but not win in a front on battle.
Eberron has a similar profile, really. It's easier to find a Magnificent Bastard than someone over 6th level. The only reason there isn't the same level of accomplishment as the guys you mention, is because there's too many Magnificent Bastards and you tend to get Thirty Xanatos Pileups (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup), which tend to get in the way of major accomplishments. I'm not even all that deep into Eberron lore, but I could probably come out with three dozen names of potential Magnificent Bastards without too much trouble.






I've always thought the Xoriat invasion (and the in-fighting of it's aftermath) shattered the Empire before humans had serious presence in mainland Khorvaire, though admittedly my Eberron knowledge is spotty.
Precious little is known about the Dhakaani empire, really. We do know that they still had an "Emperor" by the time of the war against the humans. And "Emperor" implies "Empire". It may have been vastly weakened, and might not have been as large, but it's still a single nation.

[hamlet]

Kalamar doesn't hit any kitchy "notes." It's selling point is that it's a compelling, realistic world.

It's not "magepunk" or "steampunk" or "post apocalyptic horror" or anything like that.

It merely is.

[Curious]

Kalamar doesn't hit any kitchy "notes." It's selling point is that it's a compelling, realistic world.

It's not "magepunk" or "steampunk" or "post apocalyptic horror" or anything like that.

It merely is.
-hamlet

That. . . Doesn't sound terribly appealing. If the selling point of a campaign setting is that it's 'normal' I think I would rather just do something else. But whatever, I'm not here to argue about what people like.

So, people seem to agree that Eberron defeats Athas in a direct battle. So, lets change the scenario a bit. Assume that the sorceror-kings- I'm using the 3.5 edition conversion, by the way, so they are definitely not constrained by 4e's level system- are willing to work together to subjugate, invade, or otherwise exploit Eberron. Also, since the dragon continent seems to be something of a game-breaker, lets assume they avoid conflict for now as well. Interesting conversation so far people, I like it! :smallwink:

[classy one]

If you assume that all of Athas is unitied (good luck getting avagions and defilers to do that) then cane we assume all of Eberron (including the 60-80 rakshasa rajahs and the level 208 Tiamut who isn't a goddess) are unitied as well?

In terms of high level power Eberron is not far off from Athas and Eberron has more, albeit they are sealed up in complex spells. Thing is: who in Athas is fighting who in Eberron? Contray to popular belief, Eberron has loads of superpowered villains that would give the SKs a run fir their money.

I would have to say Eberron wins just on sheer logistics and equipment. Athaians are tough but they are using bone and stones to make their weapons while an average foot soldier ihas a full plate made of iron, could be undead/deathless and enchanted by an artificer.

Speaking of artificers, Eberron has them. They break the game. What does Dark Sun have? Elemental clerics? Templars? It's not even close.

From top down Eberron holds all the advantages. No contest.

In terms of flavor, I also prefer Eberron. Someone said it best: dark Sun is more of the same type of awesome, but Eberron has many differnent types of awesome.

If only they would reprint Planescape..... Now that would be real debate.

[Ravens_cry]

I like the flavour of Eberron a lot because it uses magic as technology. I like magical magic that is rare and dangerous, practically with a mind of its own, but I also like practical magic, magic that is used for something besides blowing people up.
From what I know of it, mostly from skimming the Wikipedia and TV Tropes page, Dark Sun is a bit too oppressive for my tastes. Want to make the world a bit better, even on a small scale? Too bad, something will stop you. I find it hard to be invested in something when I can't do anything that matters. Its also why I really don't enjoy MMORPG. I don't expect to make a Utopia in level 1, but I do want to be able to have the goal as a possibility.

[Fox Box Socks]

From what I know of it, mostly from skimming the Wikipedia and TV Tropes page, Dark Sun is a bit too oppressive for my tastes. Want to make the world a bit better, even on a small scale? Too bad, something will stop you. I find it hard to be invested in something when I can't do anything that matters.
One of the big draws to Dark Sun is that, despite the bleak oppressiveness of the setting, literally saving all of civilization is well within reach. Kalak's death and the subsequent setting up of a free city has enormous political, social, philosophical, and moral consequences for every living creature on Athas. The fact that a Sorcerer-King was put down not by another Sorcerer-King, but by some dude, has the other city-states scrambling to consolidate their power bases, despite the fact that two of them (Draj and Raam) are teetering on the edge of rebellion themselves. Sure, there's political turmoil in Tyr, but there is also talk of setting up a senate, and democracy, true democracy, isn't off the table just yet.

The status quo in Athas (brutal as it is) is gone forever, and civilization as Athasians know it is at a crossroads. Either the other Sorcerer-Kings succeed in wiping the rebellion in Tyr from the history books, ensuring that their tyrannical rule continues, or the people rise against their masters in hopes of winning their freedom. Dark Sun PCs can be (and regularly are) instruments of real social change in the Tyr region, and it's not common for high-level games to end with them changing the world forever (or, you know, damning it).

[hamlet]

That. . . Doesn't sound terribly appealing. If the selling point of a campaign setting is that it's 'normal' I think I would rather just do something else. But whatever, I'm not here to argue about what people like.


And there are those of us who just get tired of "notes" being hit by various campaigns and want something that isn't loaded to the gills with gimicks.

[sonofzeal]

And there are those of us who just get tired of "notes" being hit by various campaigns and want something that isn't loaded to the gills with gimicks.
See, but you can do that in Eberron too. Just focus on the Five Nations and the Great Houses. Maybe some intrigue of Queen Aurala ir'Wynarn against King Boranel, complicated by the machinations of Droaam and uncertainty with Darguun. Lightning Rail and Airships are around, but could be treated as mere background conveniences. It doesn't have to be gimmicky, but it does support that for those who choose it.

[hamlet]

See, but you can do that in Eberron too. Just focus on the Five Nations and the Great Houses. Maybe some intrigue of Queen Aurala ir'Wynarn against King Boranel, complicated by the machinations of Droaam and uncertainty with Darguun. Lightning Rail and Airships are around, but could be treated as mere background conveniences. It doesn't have to be gimmicky, but it does support that for those who choose it.

With all due respect, I find it a little incredulous that one could ignore sentient magical robots, half-lycanthropes, demi-doppelgangers, magi-tech, and a number of other things (all on the main continent) to get to a sense of normalcy and still call it Eberron with a straight face.

Eberron ain't normal.

[Tiki Snakes]

With all due respect, I find it a little incredulous that one could ignore sentient magical robots, half-lycanthropes, demi-doppelgangers, magi-tech, and a number of other things (all on the main continent) to get to a sense of normalcy and still call it Eberron with a straight face.

Eberron ain't normal.

Seems simple enough to do for me.
Contrary-wise, without any really theme, I find that Kalamar just becomes a list of other peoples NPC's and a map, to my mind.

Though I would say that it's probably a fair comment that Dark Sun's themeatic focus is a lot narrower than Eberrons.

[hamlet]

Seems simple enough to do for me.
Contrary-wise, without any really theme, I find that Kalamar just becomes a list of other peoples NPC's and a map, to my mind.

Though I would say that it's probably a fair comment that Dark Sun's themeatic focus is a lot narrower than Eberrons.

So, what it boils down to is, without a pre-determined and delineated theme . . . it's no good?

Sorry, I can't play that way.

[Zaydos]

So, what it boils down to is, without a pre-determined and delineated theme . . . it's no good?

Sorry, I can't play that way.

No it's because if I want generic fantasy I can do generic fantasy and there's a lot more of it out there (Greyhawk, FR, even Dragonlance).

[Greenish]

an average foot soldier ihas a full plate made of ironAn average foot soldier in Khorvaire is a commoner 1, though, and most likely not wearing anything near full plate (Thrane levies, for example, typically have a cheap simple weapon and no armour).

With all due respect, I find it a little incredulous that one could ignore sentient magical robots, half-lycanthropes, demi-doppelgangers, magi-tech, and a number of other things (all on the main continent) to get to a sense of normalcy and still call it Eberron with a straight face.All of those things are perfectly normal in Eberron.

Maybe Kalamar is a perfect copy of the real world as it is right now (which is what I get from your comments), but some people prefer to play fantasy games.

[EccentricCircle]

With regards the flavour of Eberron being very focused on the Magitek I agree.
if you want that sort of thing in the game then it works well, but for a more traditional fantasy world it doesn't work as well. (it shouldn't as that's not what eberron was designed to be)
what might be interesting would be an Eberron Campaign set before the Last War, so that you have the social and cultural aspects of the world but the technology is yet to be invented.

personally I like campaign settings to have a unifying theme. and thats why both Eberron and Dark Sun appeal to me, as do things like Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft. the more traditional worlds like Dragonlance Greyhawk and the Realms are fine if you want a more traditional game. but I find that there is no incentive to play them rather than just using the standard out of the book fantasy world. ( which I apreciate is Greyhawk in name only)
It must be said that I haven't read the books. I know a few people who are Huge Dragonlance fans. they have read the books and so enjoy playing out the next part of that story. I also have some friends who want to play a game in which they have to hunt down and kill Dritz D'urden just for the shear catharsis of it...

of course my main preferance is to create my own setting from the ground up as I'm a big fan of world building. so a prewritten setting has to have some sort of lure to get me interested enough to run it. so far Eberron has been the only setting i'm tempted to run a game in rather than doing my own thing, but Dark Sun intrigues me as does the idea of a massive continuity cross over using planescape and spelljammer to bridge all the known worlds. that way the more standard fantasy woulds could be balanced out by adventures in the more exotic ones.

[Draz74]

I haven't read most of this thread, but I'm amused by the posts that claim "apples and oranges." As if to imply that one cannot debate the relative merits of apples' and oranges' flavor. :smallamused:

[Greenish]

I haven't read most of this thread, but I'm amused by the posts that claim "apples and oranges." As if to imply that one cannot debate the relative merits of apples' and oranges' flavor. :smallamused:Apples are better as-is, and for pastries. Oranges are better for juice, both alone and mixed with vodka.

[Disclaimer]: My experiences with oranges are limited to imported stuff, for latitudal reasons.

[Zaydos]

Fuji Apples are better than any other apples or oranges!!! But corn is the yummiest fruit.

[LOTRfan]

Corn is a grain.... but I agree, it is better than either apples or oranges.

[sonofzeal]

With all due respect, I find it a little incredulous that one could ignore sentient magical robots, half-lycanthropes, demi-doppelgangers, magi-tech, and a number of other things (all on the main continent) to get to a sense of normalcy and still call it Eberron with a straight face.

Eberron ain't normal.
You said Kalamar has a 1000 year old diviner elf. If you can believe that, what's wrong with everbright lanterns, or someone who can change their face? If it supports classic SRD then it has giant creatures cobbled together by mad scientists out of dead bodies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#fleshGolem), or giant pottery projects gone awry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#clayGolem), or twelve foot tall robot mechas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem), that are somehow more resistant to magic than a brick wall is. If you can believe that, what's wrong with the occasional Warforged?

Why do you presume magic, but then deny its obvious application? Why do you allow for certain non-human races but deny others? In short, what is your standard of "normalcy" in a world of Wizards and Mindflayers and +5 Flaming Greatswords?

Eberron's departure from classic D&D is in two ways. The first is an alteration to racial fluff; elves are vicious, halflings are savage, orcs are druiding and wise, hobgoblins are noble and prideful. Some of that is a little unexpected, but hardly any more implausible than standard racial fluff. I Marauding-horsemen elves (http://images.wikia.com/eberron/images/1/12/Valenar_Elf.jpg) are just as plausible, if not more so, than tree-city elves (http://images.mmosite.com/news/2008/02/10/ewok-hdr002.jpg). It's just a different culture, and honestly it's one that makes a bit more sense. Tree cities can be kind of ridiculous when you think through the dynamics, depending on the description ("Handrail technology guys. Look into it. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=753)".

The other way it departs from classic D&D is by actually thinking through the implications. Low level magic is pretty cheap. Why are bankers not using Arcane Mark to validate papers? Or what about Everburning Torches to light up city streets? This isn't magi-tech, this is just common sense. In some ways, Eberron is more plausible precisely because its residents actually seek to make use of the tools at their disposal. Golems demonstrate that you can bind an earth elemental inside something to give it power, so why has nobody in Kalamar tried the same with air or fire or water elementals? And why is it somehow more believable that an entire setting worth of "Magnificent Bastards" (your words) failed to come up with that simple idea, than it is that someone in Eberron tried it and it worked?

Eberron is unconventional in its fluff, and thinks through some of the applications of magic that's clearly already existent in the world. The first is just good setting design (if I wanted bog-standard generic I'd make it up myself, although you're free to disagree with just how far they took it), and the latter, in my mind, makes it a more believable and more real world. Eberron treats magic the way we would treat magic if it existed - as a tool to be exploited, not just for adventuring, but for day-to-day life. And I don't see the problem with that.

[Tiki Snakes]

No it's because if I want generic fantasy I can do generic fantasy and there's a lot more of it out there (Greyhawk, FR, even Dragonlance).

Essentially this.

If the book I have to buy brings nothing novel to the table, I might as well set my human-centric low magic-ish D&D campaign in a mildly altered version of Medievil Europe, or some such. The politics will make more sense, the map will be more geologically sound and I can get any background info I need via Wikipedia and the public library.

[EccentricCircle]

on the apples vs oranges front
I generally prefer apples as they are crunchier. oranges have lots of really good flavour, but in my oppinion the mechanics of having to peel it and separate all of the different segements is a bit of a pain when it comes to actually trying to eat one, whereas with an apple you can just run it under the tap and then bit in.
I apreciate that the flavour of oranges isn't to everyones taste but then neither are apples and not everyone likes the crunchier fruit. I've thought a few times of running the orange using the core from an apple, but the best i've been able to come up with was a sort of melon-and-strawberry-lacking fruit salad.

[EccentricCircle]

the website seems to have posted this twice sorry.