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Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 05:51 PM
Okay, our group plays mostly 4E but one of the guys wants to run a 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign. I'll be an LG fighter that'll be mulit-classing to Paladin at level 2 (inspired by O-Chul :smallbiggrin:), but the DM has informed me he is going to be very strict on my alignment restrictions or I'll recieve a bolt from the blue.

However, I'm trying to work out a middle where I can play my character and not be the party policeman. One of the guys has expressed interest in playing some sort of assassin character, and from my experience he has done rather questionable acts.

So what is your advice for the roleplay aspect?

ThirdEmperor
2011-02-15, 05:54 PM
I think, assuming you're working towards a good goal, you can get away with a lot by having your character be really mad, but let it slide for the Greater Good.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 05:58 PM
My character does understand that not everyone thinks like she does. I'm wondering what sort of code the DM has in mind.

Vangor
2011-02-15, 05:59 PM
So what is your advice for the roleplay aspect?

Don't be a paladin. His requirements will get in the way if effectively enforced for practically any group besides one interested in being goodly, honorable, etc.. Anyone with questionable actions should not have a paladin in group. Be a crusader and play a better character class with none of those roleplay aspects practically opposed to group cohesiveness.

slaydemons
2011-02-15, 06:03 PM
well just as there are levels of evil there are levels of good your character could show disdain for the others quiestionable act but unless you see them kill a man for no good reason then you probably won't act imo

Comet
2011-02-15, 06:06 PM
My character does understand that not everyone thinks like she does. I'm wondering what sort of code the DM has in mind.

Ask away. Paladins, as they are written, are impossible to play without a fair bit of OOC communication between the player and the GM. Make sure you both can agree on what rules the paladin needs to follow. Getting punished for something you didn't know was wrong is just silly, yet it happens in suprisingly many games.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-15, 06:11 PM
If the DM is strict on enforcing the code and your party will make it hard, you can:
a) Be a Crusader or something instead
b) Go into Shadowbane Inquisitor or Gray Guard to have less trouble if you violate your code
c) Be dumb as a brick. It's hard to play a paladin with less than 14 Wis, but you can certainly have 8 Int and no ranks in Sense Motive as an IC justification for not picking up on anything the assassin party member does. However, playing an Inspector Clouseau-ish paladin may be very far from what's fun for you, so the other two options are often better.
d) Get a Phylactery of True Faith or similar item to tip you off.

Merellis
2011-02-15, 06:17 PM
Talk with your DM and see just HOW restrictive he's going? Might as well see what's in store and go from there.

BRC
2011-02-15, 06:20 PM
First of all, I would talk with your DM. Get a very good idea of what he expects from a Paladin.
As for avoiding being the Party Policeman, I would take the stance that, as a paladin, you see it as your duty to Inspire good and fight evil, and that good deeds done under duress don't count. Your allies can exist in that grey area between good or evil, you do not need to approve of their actions, but you can let them continue so long as they don't stray into true Evil.

As a Paladin you are lawful, this means you respect authority. It also means you respect that you have no more authority over your party members than they have over you. The trap paladins fall into is thinking that they are, in some way, responsible for the party's actions, that they are obligated to hold the party to their own code.
The way I see it, if a Paladin directly interferes to stop one of their party from doing something, it should be something they would interfere with no matter who was doing it.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 07:05 PM
The way I see it, if a Paladin directly interferes to stop one of their party from doing something, it should be something they would interfere with no matter who was doing it.

That's a very good policy.

As for the code, I have the 2nd A&D Pally book which has lots of good ideas for roleplaying, including a whole chapter on the code and ethics. I might go through it with him.

And why do I want to play a Paladin? I like a challenge. :belkar:

Coidzor
2011-02-15, 07:10 PM
If your DM won't budge this character concept is sunk. That is to say, your highest priority is working on the out of character issue, and while having a clearer idea of what you're thinking of doing might help, it will be wasted effort if your DM is unwilling to work with you.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 07:16 PM
The DM is pretty easy going, it's more the fact another player who always plays very chaotic characters and tends to take things rather personally.

Xuc Xac
2011-02-15, 09:55 PM
Okay, our group plays mostly 4E but one of the guys wants to run a 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign. I'll be an LG fighter that'll be mulit-classing to Paladin at level 2 (inspired by O-Chul :smallbiggrin:), but the DM has informed me he is going to be very strict on my alignment restrictions or I'll recieve a bolt from the blue.


Sigh. Playing a paladin is like making a wish: it just makes DMs want to twist everything they can to mess with you. There are rules for what happens when a paladin falls and it seems most DMs are desperate to use them. You might as well just say "Hey DM, would you please screw me over?" Just play a Fighter/Cleric or something and claim to be holy knight. Play a "paladin" without putting "kick me" "paladin" on your character sheet. That way you can play an honorable, religiously devoted good guy warrior who fights evil and oppression instead of a Paladin who lives in constant paranoia of a DM-contrived catch-22 that will force him into falling when he has to choose the lesser of two evils.

Doc Roc
2011-02-15, 10:37 PM
I think, that if you want to remain competent, you should think carefully about this. I could see this degrading to PvP pretty abruptly, your paladin getting the blame, and getting squelched. I normally don't advocate optimization blindly, but it's a lot easier to cajole people into doing good deeds when Dr. Gooday Tyoshoes is pulling his own weight twice over.

Beyond that, my RP experience as a GM has been pretty negative when it comes to paladins, and I'm quite loose on alignment. I shiver when I think about the idea of a GM who's strict about it. Why not just play a lawful good cleric? I know it's not what you really want to play, but I just think that Paladin might be asking for trouble with this GM. Particularly if he has a somewhat biblical idea of what it means to be Evil, and is just as strict on the assassin.



Sigh. Playing a paladin is like making a wish: it just makes DMs want to twist everything they can to mess with you. There are rules for what happens when a paladin falls and it seems most DMs are desperate to use them.

Outside of a single instance in a PvE one-shot during the Test of Might, I have never used those rules, nor attempted to. I advocate against them at every opportunity. Paladin deserves to rock.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 10:47 PM
Beyond that, my RP experience as a GM has been pretty negative when it comes to paladins, and I'm quite loose on alignment. I shiver when I think about the idea of a GM who's strict about it. Why not just play a lawful good cleric? I know it's not what you really want to play, but I just think that Paladin might be asking for trouble with this GM. Particularly if he has a somewhat biblical idea of what it means to be Evil, and is just as strict on the assassin.


I actually gave him O-Chul's dilemma as a scenario, when Redcloak was going to throw the slaves into the rift and there was nothing O-Chul could do to stop that from happening. He said that if faced with such a scenario, where there's nothing I can do to stop a truly evil act from occurring, that I wouldn't fall...but I would need to take a side-quest to atone for such a thing.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 10:50 PM
I actually gave him O-Chul's dilemma as a scenario, when Redcloak was going to throw the slaves into the rift and there was nothing O-Chul could do to stop that from happening. He said that if faced with such a scenario, where there's nothing I can do to stop a truly evil act from occurring, that I wouldn't fall...but I would need to take a side-quest to atone for such a thing.

....That is incredibly lame. Seriously. I would harm such a DM, then just roll a rogue.

Screw that.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 10:53 PM
Well, he did manage to get himself thrown in prison for attempting to burn down the school in my game last week...

DeltaEmil
2011-02-15, 10:55 PM
Haha, you didn't nor couldn't stop that evil guy from killing an innocent person 1000 miles away from your current location. You fall, and must now atone. Eh, you know what, you had to do that three times already, I'll rule it that you just fall forever and become a fighter without special abilities.

Hahahahahahahahaha...

Eh, yeah, that's lame... :smallsigh:

TalonDemonKing
2011-02-15, 11:02 PM
Open communication would be the best idea in order to prevent falling. Many times explaining the motivation behind an act can sway a DM to prevent you from losing your paladin levels.

Using your assassin friend as an example:

"Partying with the Assassin" might cause you to fall because Assassins are 'inherently evil.' (As seen by most DMs)

"Partying with the Assassin to put his skills for the forces of good and eventually convert him into a good and honerable person (Think :belkar::roy:, when Roy had died.)" is still partying with the Assassin, but asides from annoying the assassin in character, can usually keep the group cohesion together. As long as you make it a point (And maybe even have the assassin go along) that you're A) In your God's favor, and B) Lawful Good with your intentions, you can easily argue a case against you falling.

And if you fall? Become your own God, grant yourself your own paladin levels, and be less of a prick to your own followers.

Edit:

Well, he did manage to get himself thrown in prison for attempting to burn down the school in my game last week...

Was his alignment Chaotic Neutral? :smallcool:


As for the code, I have the 2nd A&D Pally book which has lots of good ideas for roleplaying, including a whole chapter on the code and ethics. I might go through it with him.

Also, what's the name of this book?

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 11:07 PM
The Paladin Handbook, my friend. I own it. It rocks.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 11:10 PM
Was his alignment Chaotic Neutral? :smallcool:


More like Chaotic Stupid...if he had an alignment. This was 4E so his alignment was Good.

And I'm going to go through the Paladin's handbook tonight, perhaps there could be grounds for atonement with those abuse rituals.

Coidzor
2011-02-15, 11:20 PM
I actually gave him O-Chul's dilemma as a scenario, when Redcloak was going to throw the slaves into the rift and there was nothing O-Chul could do to stop that from happening. He said that if faced with such a scenario, where there's nothing I can do to stop a truly evil act from occurring, that I wouldn't fall...but I would need to take a side-quest to atone for such a thing.

That plus having an assassin guaranteed as part of the party roster means bad times for you.

TalonDemonKing
2011-02-15, 11:22 PM
I don't see how "Good" Correlates to "Burning down a school." Even if it was a school for evil, fire is one of the most painful ways to die.

I, personally, beleive that Paladins should be ones to lead by example, and that being said, you better be teaming with evil people.

A good example I like to talk about are Drow. Evil society, constantly stabbing each other in the back, viying for power. Never can trust, never can rest. Drow party ambushes a paladin, paladin drives them off, but manages to force a surrender from one. The Drow should expect to be slain, but allowed to live. The Drow expects a dagger in the back while they sleep, but instead finds a warm bedroll and a restful evening. Drow expects to be taken advantage of, but the paladin expects nothing but a honest days work. After a while, somethings going to click inside that Drow. "I've been living my life evil this entire time, and only in the presence of a good individual have I actually enjoyed it. Maybe I should become good myself."

Three months of partying with an evil drow, and now he wants to become good. And if thats not what being a Paladin is about, then find a new dm. :smallmad:

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 11:23 PM
I did say "some sort" of assassin character, probably a rogue variant and Chaotic Neutral.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 11:25 PM
I don't see how "Good" Correlates to "Burning down a school." Even if it was a school for evil, fire is one of the most painful ways to die.


Which was why he was arrested, imprisoned and put on trial. He was also called an idiot by more than one party member, including the NPC they had come to help.

In the end, he pled guilty to the charge and paid a fine, thus the day was saved.

Vangor
2011-02-15, 11:26 PM
I actually gave him O-Chul's dilemma as a scenario, when Redcloak was going to throw the slaves into the rift and there was nothing O-Chul could do to stop that from happening. He said that if faced with such a scenario, where there's nothing I can do to stop a truly evil act from occurring, that I wouldn't fall...but I would need to take a side-quest to atone for such a thing.

...for not being able to stop an evil act from occurring, you have to atone? Even in my strictest reading of the paladin, I am unsure how one might reach such a conclusion. Have your DM again read the code of conduct for paladins because the biggest issues should be grouping with people who offend your moral sensibilities alongside the need to act with honor.

Waker
2011-02-15, 11:28 PM
One small thing to point out is that while a paladin must be Lawful Good, the emphasis is more on the good. Your aura radiates good, not good and lawful. While you might be willing to look the other way for a non-lawful act, its the evil acts you are to be wary of.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 11:31 PM
I do know that when there is a choice between Law and Good, you choose Good.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 11:31 PM
One small thing to point out is that while a paladin must be Lawful Good, the emphasis is more on the good. Your aura radiates good, not good and lawful. While you might be willing to look the other way for a non-lawful act, its the evil acts you are to be wary of.

Except that a Paladin's code merely places priority on Good acts; a Paladin is expected to uphold both and act "honorably" in ADDITION to those obligations, and then also to punish the guilty.

TalonDemonKing
2011-02-15, 11:35 PM
One small thing to point out is that while a paladin must be Lawful Good, the emphasis is more on the good. Your aura radiates good, not good and lawful. While you might be willing to look the other way for a non-lawful act, its the evil acts you are to be wary of.

This a hundred times over.

I hate to say it, but if your party member who was "good" and burned down the school is the one DMing, I think you need to have him sit down and review what alignments actually are before you go and play a Paladin.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-15, 11:40 PM
I hate to say it, but if your party member who was "good" and burned down the school is the one DMing, I think you need to have him sit down and review what alignments actually are before you go and play a Paladin.

He attempted to burn down the school, but the fire was put out by an NPC. He was then arrested and charged, then put on trial for his crimes. He didn't try to get off, as everyone realised that the best thing for him to do was plead guilty, pay the fine (about 600gp) and say he was sorry, which he did. And he is going to work on playing his character more closer to the stats and alignment.

TalonDemonKing
2011-02-15, 11:50 PM
Appologies, I had it stuck in my head that he actually managed it. Still, my point remains that it wasn't a very 'Good' act.

With that being said, wasn't there some sort of paladin ability or spell that gave him a few moments of 'Divine insight' or the like? Wouldn't using that during difficult choices always guarentee you not falling? I might be totally off my rocker with that spell, though. But there is always pray-mail.

Edit:
I take back what I said. If [anyone] is paladin whos worried about whats right and whats wrong because [that person] doesn't want to lose your paladin levels, [that person] doesn't deserve to be playing a paladin in the first place.

(Not a personal attack >_>, just general feelings)

Doc Roc
2011-02-16, 12:17 AM
I actually gave him O-Chul's dilemma as a scenario, when Redcloak was going to throw the slaves into the rift and there was nothing O-Chul could do to stop that from happening. He said that if faced with such a scenario, where there's nothing I can do to stop a truly evil act from occurring, that I wouldn't fall...but I would need to take a side-quest to atone for such a thing.

Can you run a 3rd party paladin by him? :)

I am sad that I sound like a broken record, but monk and paladin are the only classes I ask this about. :|




Edit:
I take back what I said. If [anyone] is paladin whos worried about whats right and whats wrong because [that person] doesn't want to lose your paladin levels, [that person] doesn't deserve to be playing a paladin in the first place.

(Not a personal attack >_>, just general feelings)

Well, I'd say that it's a very reasonable concern under the circumstances, and probably in most others. I'm not sure that someone should be judged for their fears in this case.

Coidzor
2011-02-16, 01:49 AM
He attempted to burn down the school, but the fire was put out by an NPC. He was then arrested and charged, then put on trial for his crimes. He didn't try to get off, as everyone realised that the best thing for him to do was plead guilty, pay the fine (about 600gp) and say he was sorry, which he did. And he is going to work on playing his character more closer to the stats and alignment.

Still, the fact that he decided that becoming an arsonist intentionally and spontaneously while ostensibly "Good," does raise questions about his stance on alignment issues, especially if one is going to be at the mercy of said alignment issues.


With that being said, wasn't there some sort of paladin ability or spell that gave him a few moments of 'Divine insight' or the like? Wouldn't using that during difficult choices always guarentee you not falling? I might be totally off my rocker with that spell, though. But there is always pray-mail.

You might've been thinking of the Phylactery of Faithfulness.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness)

Edit:
I take back what I said. If [anyone] is paladin whos worried about whats right and whats wrong because [that person] doesn't want to lose your paladin levels, [that person] doesn't deserve to be playing a paladin in the first place.

(Not a personal attack >_>, just general feelings)

Very few people deserve the headache and quagmires of playing a paladin, but still, they feel the call nonetheless.

Callista
2011-02-16, 02:19 AM
Don't play a paladin in a party with an evil character unless you and the evil guy's player have worked out how you are going to make it work beforehand. Otherwise you are just asking for trouble. Likewise, don't play an evil character in a party with a paladin.

Why? Unless you arrange it ahead of time, it's unrealistic for the two of you to casually be in the same party. Somebody who dedicates his life to upholding justice and mercy and protecting the innocent simply wouldn't hang out with someone who is the moral equivalent of Belkar or Tarquin. They would either leave the party, bring the person to justice, or even outright kill them the first time they committed murder.

If you can't depend on the guy playing the Evil character to work with you, then don't go for a paladin. Bad idea--it means either twisting your character out of character, or else somebody has to leave the party pretty soon, and neither one's a good thing.

re. O-chul's dilemma: Uhh... yeah. They really don't know how the Atonement spell works, do they? You don't need an Atonement unless your alignment's changed or you've lost class abilities. And you have to make a decision in order to be culpable for an action--O-Chul wasn't capable of making any decision that could affect the outcome of the situation, and he knew it.

I can see that in some cases an Atonement spell (minus the XP component and minus the quest) might be necessary for unwilling evil acts (for the sake of the poor paladin's sanity as much as for anything else). But I would not force the character to go without his class abilities for very long--no longer than it takes to role-play a conversation with the cleric, who will likely counsel him on how to solve hostage dilemmas, protect himself from mind-control, etc. and cast the Atonement with minimal fuss.

Jarian
2011-02-16, 02:28 AM
There are a number of Paladin fixes floating around - some very close to the original, some complete redesigns. Something pretty much all of them have in common is that they get rid of the code of conduct, or reword it to be a roleplaying thing, rather than a "Welp, sucks to be you, Mr. Fighter Without Bonus Feats".

I would strongly recommend looking into using one of these fixes. Even if all you want is a minor change, there are any number of ways to play a Paladin with a strong moral code that he follows, without shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, possibly Grey Guard, if your DM is going to penalize you for the O-Chul scenario.

aboyd
2011-02-16, 04:44 AM
And why do I want to play a Paladin? I like a challenge. :belkar:
OK, so as part of liking a challenge, are you going to be a decent human being when you lose the challenge and the DM makes you fallen? I ask because the DM is pretty clearly putting you on notice that he intends to make you fall when you screw up. And since he's the guy running the game, you really won't have much recourse when you think he's being unfair about it.

You were warned of a possible or even probable outcome. You wish to do it anyway. So I hope you won't be a jerk if that outcome becomes reality.

Callista
2011-02-16, 07:48 AM
Well, most paladins will occasionally lose their powers. That's normal. There are many minor evil acts; there are spells that could force you to do evil things; there are effects that directly change your alignment; and there are times when you won't be able to figure out a third choice.

However, you shouldn't be without your powers for extended periods of time; most of the things that the average fallible paladin (i.e., not designed to go for Blackguard) will eventually end up doing are minor offenses and the loss of powers little more than a wake-up call from the deity, a minor loss of faith, etc.

Gnoman
2011-02-16, 08:12 AM
Here's what I suggest (and how I handle Paladins in my campaign.) Sit down with your DM and say "I want to play a paladin, because I like the class concept. However, I find the concept of "Lawful Good" to be a little to indistinct for such a strict requirement." Then, either have your DM draw up a strict code of conduct for each aspect of the alignment (one for Lawful, one for Good) or do it yourself and try to get him to approve it. That way, there's much less ambiguity in what the right response to a situation is. Breaking either code causes a fall as normal.

For example:

Lawful

I shall obey those that have been justly set above me
I shall ask nothing of those set below me that I would not do myself at need
I shall never attempt to rule over those that I have no just right to rule

Good
I shall never shed the blood of the innocent, or the helpless
I shall defend the innocent and the helpless to the last ounce of my strength
I shall oppose those who actively work evil upon others with the full force I can muster

This solves a lot of dilemmas if your GM allows it. For example, the third clause of the "Lawful" oath eliminates the petty "party police" role, and the second and the "Good" oath clearly lays out what the paladin can accept from his party.

J.Gellert
2011-02-16, 08:17 AM
Okay, our group plays mostly 4E but one of the guys wants to run a 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign. I'll be an LG fighter that'll be mulit-classing to Paladin at level 2 (inspired by O-Chul :smallbiggrin:), but the DM has informed me he is going to be very strict on my alignment restrictions or I'll recieve a bolt from the blue.

Emphasis mine; this is the number uno reason to avoid playing a paladin. Namely, DMs with strict views on the subject.

Against such a force, there can be no victory. A particularly evil DM can get you in many lose-lose situations.

I'll second what has been mentioned; ask your DM to write a code of conduct so that you at least know what he expects of you.

FMArthur
2011-02-16, 08:20 AM
When I play Paladins and am faced with a dilemma, I just remember that I am playing a hero, not just a class. By knowingly sacrificing my class features in the pursuit of good, I shift the moral dilemma from me onto the DM. Does a Paladin who sacrifices his personal gains to do Good really deserve to fall? He has to decide if falling represents a deviation from the arbitrary Lawful Stupid template given or if falling represents a deviation from the true path of Good, not I. Because either way he chooses I'm going to lie to the Gestapo, direct Evil people to Good ends, and accept personal losses in the cause of Good every time. He can be a jerk if he wants, but at the end of the day I will still be a hero. Besides, I am confident enough in my feat choices to get by. :smallwink:

Basically just make sure that the DM feels like he's being an a-hole if he makes you fall. :smallamused:

Merellis
2011-02-16, 08:57 AM
When I play Paladins and am faced with a dilemma, I just remember that I am playing a hero, not just a class. By knowingly sacrificing my class features in the pursuit of good, I shift the moral dilemma from me onto the DM. Does a Paladin who sacrifices his personal gains to do Good really deserve to fall? He has to decide if falling represents a deviation from the arbitrary Lawful Stupid template given or if falling represents a deviation from the true path of Good, not I. Because either way he chooses I'm going to lie to the Gestapo, direct Evil people to Good ends, and accept personal losses in the cause of Good every time. He can be a jerk if he wants, but at the end of the day I will still be a hero. Besides, I am confident enough in my feat choices to get by. :smallwink:

Basically just make sure that the DM feel like he's being an a-hole if he makes you fall. :smallamused:

I agree with this idea. :smallbiggrin:

Though I would like to add that, if your CN party-mate is just CN, no need to do anything unless he does something horrible that your Paladin knows about.

He lies to the guards and doesn't give all information? Not your problem.

He stabs a guard in the back and tries to murder him when you're trying to get in a city for supplies but your already in the tavern/market? You weren't there and don't know what he's doing, again, not your problem. Edit: Well, until you find out anyway. If it never comes up and he never admits it, nor does the DM make him evil, then what are you supposed to do? Meta-game?

He starts abusing children or doing very twisted things in the name of chaotic while in front of you or you see evidence of such? Tell him to stop. If not, smite him, drag him to a town for court, and believe the law will deal with a criminal while you get back to saving the innocents.

The GM can hold you to your alignment and code, but he can't make you handle things you aren't aware of. :smallsmile:

Achernar
2011-02-16, 09:54 AM
Okay, our group plays mostly 4E but one of the guys wants to run a 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign. I'll be an LG fighter that'll be mulit-classing to Paladin at level 2 (inspired by O-Chul :smallbiggrin:), but the DM has informed me he is going to be very strict on my alignment restrictions or I'll recieve a bolt from the blue.

However, I'm trying to work out a middle where I can play my character and not be the party policeman. One of the guys has expressed interest in playing some sort of assassin character, and from my experience he has done rather questionable acts.

So what is your advice for the roleplay aspect?

OK. First of all, talk to your DM. Being too strict on the Pally usually results in a polluted atmosphere for the whole story. For some reason, DMs love wailing on the paladin, and I don't really get this. I hate squelching character ideas, especially when it's another player's character who interferes with the concept.

For my part, I don't usually play the class. Right now, however, I am playing a strongly-LG, pretty harried ranger. He's been promoted to the head of his mercenary company, which he joined after finishing his tour of duty for his nation's army. Perhaps LG is not the best alignment for a merc, let alone a mercenary captain, but I digress: we have two pallies in the company, one PC and one NPC.

The PC paladin doesn't actually know what he is, and he doesn't even follow a cause other than basically capital-G-Good. He just has a lot of personality (despite being soft-spoken and a bit innocent for a soldier) and does a lot of healing with lay-on-hands and a lot of hurting with a lance-charge build.

Now, while we don't have any Evil characters in the party, I think this character type (and ANY pally) could travel with an Evil character as long as he or she makes a concerted effort to prevent the Evil character from doing outright evil acts. Because he doesn't really work for a higher power, the DM has less excuse to have the powers cut you out for anything other than doing Evil. You are the source of his own moral judgments and can maintain a code of honor without leaving everything to the DM to punish you. You will need to carefully balance this: don't step on the assassin's toes when he Death-Attacks, but make sure he doesn't actually kill his targets; place limits on what you are willing to tolerate from him. Actively try to reform him to being Good or at least Neutral, and your DM should give you a break.


TL;DR: Don't be a paladin of a god or cause, just be a paladin of the greater good and try to redeem the evil party members and your alignment and member-in-good-standing status should be unharmed.

big teej
2011-02-16, 11:43 AM
Okay, our group plays mostly 4E but one of the guys wants to run a 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign. I'll be an LG fighter that'll be mulit-classing to Paladin at level 2 (inspired by O-Chul :smallbiggrin:), but the DM has informed me he is going to be very strict on my alignment restrictions or I'll recieve a bolt from the blue.

However, I'm trying to work out a middle where I can play my character and not be the party policeman. One of the guys has expressed interest in playing some sort of assassin character, and from my experience he has done rather questionable acts.

So what is your advice for the roleplay aspect?

a standard rule in my group about paladins is that you WILL discuss (exhaustively)

exactly what it means to be a paladin
exactly what constitutes the paladin's morals/beliefs
exactly what sorts of things will make the paladin fall
exactly what sorts of things that are 'eh' situational
exactly what sorts of things that WILL NOT make the paladin fall.

for example, in my last 'whats a paladin' discussion
what does it mean to be a paladin?
A: you ARE Lawful Good. not up for debate, the definition of paladin is 'holy warrior'. you will act as such, pending following points

what constitutes the paladin's morals/beliefs?
this is one I always work with the player on, because everyone is different (both the characters and the players themselves) now obviously some things don't fly as a paladin (murder/slit the throat of people who piss me offdoesn't fly for example)

what sorts of things make the paladin fall?
blatent, intentional, avoidable EVIL acts (see Miko)
travel with a paragon of evil that is not a) seeking redemption or b) imprisoned (paragon of evil is typically defined as "blackguard" or "baby-eating-barbarian" fiend worshippers and necromancers are also typically lsited here)

what falls under 'situational' things?
typically, for me, this only comes up if the player is deliberately toeing the line every chance he gets. at which point he'd probably fall just for doing that.
or, short version "morally ambiguous behavior" -whoring? gambling? etc.

what will NOT make the paladin fall?
a rhino's bargain
occaisionally doing things that are 'morally or legally ambigous'
are 'wrong' but not 'evil' (see whoring and gambling again)
traveling with an 'evil' character
'evil' is defined as 'evil is on the sheet, but they do not meet the criteria of 'paragon of evil'' typically.


personally, I put FAR more restrictions on evil characters than I do paladins.
granted, the evil character restrictions are summed up in one statement, but it covers so much more.
"DO NOT break my party, I will bodily remove you from the game"


/ramble.

tl;dr - talk over with your DM exactly what he's looking for as per examples of falling, strictness of the paladin's code, etc.

Callista
2011-02-16, 11:58 AM
The important thing with paladins is to remember that you as the DM are playing the paladin's god. You have to make sure that the player knows as much about how you are going to play that god as his character would know about his deity. It's miscommunication about what the player thinks the PC's god expects of him that is the problem in most cases. (Or, for godless paladins, what the celestial planes define "LG" as.) If you don't communicate properly, then there can be problems. Having the player write out his paladin's code of honor is especially useful.

I think we often forget, though, in all the alignment issues, just how much paladins bring to the game. There's that touch of idealism, the closest class to incorruptible; and yet you're doing it with a fallible mortal who nevertheless messes up and has character flaws like everybody else. It's an iconic D&D class--the knight in shining armor who slays the dragon and rescues the innocent peasants and is generally an honorable, well-spoken, all-around noble kind of guy. The paladin's absolute dedication to his ideals is something you don't see in very many other characters; and the paladin class (and some of its variants and associated PrCs) is one of the few classes, and the only core class, that gets you mechanics for a warrior dedicated to an ideal. D&D just isn't D&D without paladins.

I mean, hey, if you don't like 'em, don't play one, and if you're a DM you're within your rights to either ban them, restrict them to experienced players, or replace them with another knightly class. But as for me, I'll always love the paladin precisely because it focuses so much on ideals. Even in a black-and-gray world, a paladin can stand out as the one person who'll try to do the right thing--even if it's impossible. I like that about the class. And in-game, I've never seen major problems associated with paladins--though I've seen multiple moral dilemmas and a handful of falls from grace--but I've seen a lot of value added to the game itself because of the paladin's presence. Whether he's annoying the free-spirited members of the group with his insistence on honor, shielding innocent villagers from the necromancer's minions, or just holding the line next to the party barbarian, the party paladins I've seen played always contributed more than enough to counter the possible complications associated with their idealism.

stainboy
2011-02-16, 04:03 PM
Ask away. Paladins, as they are written, are impossible to play without a fair bit of OOC communication between the player and the GM.

Fixed.

The paladin's code is a relic from the early days of D&D. Back then evil was for antagonists, not sexy antiheroes and spellcasting rogues. Nobody ever fought for a good cause for selfish reasons. Nobody ever changed because a paladin lead by example. If you were evil, you played for Team Evil and that was the end of it. You spoke Evil as a language.

Speaking of relics from the 70s, I'll be that guy and kick off the poison argument. The real reason paladins can't use poison is probably something like this. Picture this session happening very early in the life of D&D. The DM is probably Gary Gygax.

DM: There is a door in front of you. What do you do?
Thief: I check for traps. (Rolls d% and fails.) *sigh* I open the door.
DM: You trigger the poison needle trap! Save or die.
Thief: *dies*
Cleric: Dammit, that's the third one this week! You know what? I'm tired of being the only four chumps in the world who don't put save or die poison on everything. I take that poison and smear it on my morningstar.
DM: Your morningstar is a bludgeoning weapon. (Whew, dodged a bullet there.)
Cleric: But it has spikes on it... ah, screw it, fine.
Thief: What about me? Can my next thief character poison his shortsword?
DM: You'd have to hit something first. And go into melee without dying. And get to the fight without dying in a trap, and...
Thief: *sigh* Yeah, I get it.
Fighting Man: Well I can use the poison!
DM: *sudden flash of inspiration* Using poison is an evil act and only Chaotic characters would consider it! You want to become a paladin, don't you??


(Disclaimer: I started playing in 1990 and may be combining weird rules from different old editions here.)

The_Jackal
2011-02-16, 04:13 PM
My advice is don't play the Paladin. If you want to play the party tank who's a righteous guy, just play a fighter, and throw 3 feats into Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude. It sounds like your GM is determined to be a d*ck about your alignment restrictions, so don't give him the excuse.

CubeB
2011-02-16, 04:18 PM
You could always look into Paladin of Freedom. Or Crusader. Or just Cleric. You can be a mean meleer with just a Cleric.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-16, 04:42 PM
I prefer Paladin of Tyranny. They are allowed to be with good characters, "be good", and basically pretend to be a Paladin. All the benefits of a Paladin and the party loves you for never stepping on toes.

nedz
2011-02-16, 06:08 PM
Play a favoured soul, perhaps that will fit your character concept?
Or a fighter type who winds up in one of those Templer type PrCs (There are several to chhose from).
You can still role-play the paladins code, you just don't get hit with the falling bat.

hamishspence
2011-02-17, 08:24 AM
Quintessenial Paladin II (3rd party) had a system where the scale of the act (including various aggravating or mitigating factors) determined how much of your paladin powers you lost.

A minor evil act might only cause you to lose a small amount of your paladin powers.

A major one might cause you to lose everything till you atone (and the forces of evil sent fiends to try and tempt you onto the path of becoming a blackguard).

Might be a good compromise for those who want it to be clear when the paladin has transgressed, without completely crippling the character at every minor transgression.

It also had a "build your own Code" set of rules.