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No brains
2011-02-15, 07:46 PM
I have a concept for a badguy who is supposed to be all powerful and stuff, but I want to make sure this seems checks out beofre fellow gamers.

Male Human Wizard gestalt Archivist 20
Gimmick: Knows every spell* as a result of excruciating research, but uses most of his power to keep a stranglehold on his hedonistic life and political security. Rarely engages enemies in person, and only pending a barrage of divinations to ensure success.
Weakness: Lazy. Can be very sloppy if it means he has extra time to indulge himself now or later.

*every arcane and divine spell from 0 to 9th level. No epic spells, no psi.

What I would like are some suggestions for feats and items for him to have. I know divine metamagic is ferociously OP, so I was curious if there is a PRC or magic item that can provide turning for him.

Even though he is supposed to be incongruously powerful, he is still supposed to lose and suggestions that include gaps, loopholes, and other things the heroes can exploit would be well recieved.

Safety Sword
2011-02-15, 07:56 PM
I have a concept for a badguy who is supposed to be all powerful and stuff, but I want to make sure this seems checks out beofre fellow gamers.

Male Human Wizard gestalt Archivist 20
Gimmick: Knows every spell* as a result of excruciating research, but uses most of his power to keep a stranglehold on his hedonistic life and political security. Rarely engages enemies in person, and only pending a barrage of divinations to ensure success.
Weakness: Lazy. Can be very sloppy if it means he has extra time to indulge himself now or later.

*every arcane and divine spell from 0 to 9th level. No epic spells, no psi.

What I would like are some suggestions for feats and items for him to have. I know divine metamagic is ferociously OP, so I was curious if there is a PRC or magic item that can provide turning for him.

Even though he is supposed to be incongruously powerful, he is still supposed to lose and suggestions that include gaps, loopholes, and other things the heroes can exploit would be well recieved.

Someone who knows every spell doesn't really have time to be lazy. I think that's a bad start. Perhaps he's too BUSY to engage the PCs personally and that's why he doesn't do it until they become a big enough threat to what he cares about (his research).

Of course, the PCs will find out about the new world ending/changing spell he's working on and HAVE to stop him. Firstly by stopping his cronies when they're collecting *whatevers* for his research and then more directly as he tries to pull off the big boom at the end.

Hope that's helpful.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 09:21 PM
Someone who knows every spell doesn't really have time to be lazy.

QFT.



Also, an all-powerful super genius who loses because they are lazy, stupid, or sloppy makes no sense and isn't a very convincing villain. You really should change one or more of these elements, unless you're happy with Saturday-morning cartoon levels of villainy.

Maybe a gestalt Sorcerer//Favored Soul with just a decent spell selection and some choice wands and scrolls would be a better fit.

quiet1mi
2011-02-15, 11:20 PM
Just my 2 gold pieces...

The above would be good for "the power behind the thrown"... This character could just not care enough to conquer the planet, he will divert the BBEG resources to research new spells and and pillage ruins....

This reminds me of Indiana Jones but with spells and priceless artifacts with actual powers and links to divine rather then superstitious spells and priceless artifacts that are just priceless.

The Gestalt Wizard // Archivist could just want to accumulate ultimate knowledge and ascend. Unfortunately the other gods do not like that idea so they constantly impede his efforts with their disciples (Read: adventurers). Thus this Scholar of the Infinity has banded with a BBEG so he can press foreword with his research and have the resources to fend off attacks.

The BBEG has the armies to fulfill the scholars demands but only in exchange for spell casting services...

This could bring up an interesting scene where the scholar momentarily betrays the BBEG because he carelessly destroys a library, or The party holds some information unknown to the scholar hostage.

Yes, I said "hostage" as people engrossed in their work tend to regard information as a living idea.

No brains
2011-02-16, 02:24 PM
Also, an all-powerful super genius who loses because they are lazy, stupid, or sloppy makes no sense and isn't a very convincing villain. You really should change one or more of these elements, unless you're happy with Saturday-morning cartoon levels of villainy.

What does QFT mean?

I would like to point out that because they know every spell they have become lazy. The diligence that drove them through such tedium has left this character. They got arrogant and to a degree, they just don't care for much (including people) anymore besides staying comfortable. They hold an influential yet unimportant office (so assassins never target them) so they can get almost anything they want (that their magic couldn't get them).

Their lazyness is better expressed as cruel apathy. They won't abstain from taking urgent action, like defending themself. Also the evil they do which drives the heroes against them is largely overlooked as the eggs broken for their gourmet omlete. Most importantly, they aren't stupid, but are made the fool by an even smarter ally of the heroes who can make a fool of this powerful tyrant (the reason why the villain is never just wiped is beacuse they have allies and resources that the heroes can't match).

If the above better justifies the attitude of the villain, I would like to see some awesome spells or contingencies that have flaws that can be cleverly exploited or some sharp tools who can cut Gordian knots.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-16, 02:36 PM
QFT = Quoted For Truth

It means I want to emphasize that the quoted text is factual.



And I still say the villain makes no sense. What was his goal for learning all those spells? Just to learn them? And then what? Shouldn't he be trying to become the next god of magic or something? How does he know he's even learned every spell? Did he travel to every plane and talk to every archmage? Has he tried researching his own unique spells?

No, he apparently dedicated his life to becoming the most powerful spellcaster in history just for the lulz. I mean, why cook dinner when you can just conjure buffalo wings and hookers, amirite?

You say that he only rarely enters combat, but when he does he uses ample diviniations to ensure victory, yet you expect some slight missed detail or unknown exploit to allow the PCs to defeat him? This guy shouldn't be missing details. This guy should know all the exploits.

The guy's attitude just does not match the things he has done. At all.

Safety Sword
2011-02-16, 05:04 PM
I mean, why cook dinner when you can just conjure buffalo wings and hookers, amirite?

Summon Charlie Sheen spell? :smallbiggrin:

I'm not getting your villain either, I'm afraid. In life as in D&D people who rise to higher positions are usually highly motivated, even driven to a purpose. When they arrive they rarely just take their foot off the pedal and coast to a stop.

Put it this way, if I was a PC in your campaign and I heard about a powerful guy who has a vast array of spell and powers, but is too lazy to actually do anything with them, I have no reason to want to be interested in his activities.

However if I hear about the BBEG who is running the kingdom into the ground and starving the people because all of the treasury is being used by his quest for phenomenal cosmic power, I might start by trying to find out about his methods and finding small ways to set him back until I was in a position to do more.

Anyway that's my advice, take it or leave it I guess.

cd4
2011-02-16, 05:53 PM
Well, I agree that this bad guy needs work but as for the heros there are a few staples against spell casters.

Dispel Magic - What Buffs?
Antimagic field - What spells?
Attacks of Opportunity against the spell caster - if you cannot concentrate then you lose the spell.
Silence - What do you need to say to cast the spell? Sorry can't hear you.
Grappled - You cannot move your arms to do the gestures or grab the component needed.

ClockShock
2011-02-16, 06:33 PM
On the 'fluff' side of things, i still think the original poster can have the "know's every spell" and "lazy" thing work.

Consider the learning of spells as a collection, rather than the acquisition of power/knowledge.
Theres no actual purpose to it. It's just something he does becuase he wants to finish his collection. Only the heroes run into him long after the collection is complete and he's been kicking back doing nothing for a while.
Maybe every now and then a new spell is researched and he finds the motivation to re-complete the spell list.

Given this, you've now got a powerful wizard who didn't become so to become so (if that makes sense). He's got some spells that make life easy and pleasurable so he just does that, keeping an eye on security at the same time.

As for weaknesses, he's a collector for the sake of collecting, so perhaps he has another collection (a rare item that the heroes might use to gain leverage). This also gives the heroes a reason to be interested - he's got some quests for them.
Alternatively (or in addition) he might show some mildly OCD behaviour. Patterns in his life that can be predicted and exploited. I've seen this work with someone who always ate in the same restaurant, at the same table, on a certain day - but you could play to hedonism and make it so that a large number of his spell slots are always taken by certain spells, making him much less formidable if he is unaware of a threat.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-16, 06:51 PM
stuff

That could work. If that's the case, then he probably has other things that he's collected over the years, which the PCs can use to their advantage by stealing or threatening to destroy a piece of his prized collectables. They could also find a bunch of scrolls in the villain's library which might help even things a bit.

quiet1mi
2011-02-16, 07:56 PM
QFT = Quoted For Truth
And I still say the villain makes no sense. What was his goal for learning all those spells? Just to learn them? And then what? Shouldn't he be trying to become the next god of magic or something? How does he know he's even learned every spell? Did he travel to every plane and talk to every archmage? Has he tried researching his own unique spells?

The guy's attitude just does not match the things he has done. At all.

maybe he is like Brainiac and just plans to destroy the multi-verse once he has learned everything...

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-16, 09:15 PM
maybe he is like Brainiac and just plans to destroy the multi-verse once he has learned everything...

Then he would be doing that instead of indulging in his hedonistic lifestyle, and we would have a villain that makes more sense.

No brains
2011-02-17, 04:10 PM
Dispel Magic - What Buffs?
Antimagic field - What spells?
Attacks of Opportunity against the spell caster - if you cannot concentrate then you lose the spell.
Silence - What do you need to say to cast the spell? Sorry can't hear you.
Grappled - You cannot move your arms to do the gestures or grab the component needed.


Alternatively (or in addition) he might show some mildly OCD behaviour. Patterns in his life that can be predicted and exploited. I've seen this work with someone who always ate in the same restaurant, at the same table, on a certain day - but you could play to hedonism and make it so that a large number of his spell slots are always taken by certain spells, making him much less formidable if he is unaware of a threat.

Thank you both for contributing! These will actually be very useful. I really wanted to know more about ways to beat casters. Particularly odd-mannered ones might have just given more ideas for the takedown.

As for justifying the mindset of this person, that can be a chew toy for a hydra. Fantasy is filled with so many exploitable plot devices, an incongruency becomes a tantalizing mystery. The explaination can range anywhere from magic omnipotence wasn't as exciting as one may think, to a yet more powerful creature dominating a new pawn.

Either way, I would like to see focus on ways to beat someone who might truly have it all. If you can tie it into the given personality, good. Just don't go all Gollum over it.

TheDarkDM
2011-02-17, 05:25 PM
Well, I agree that this bad guy needs work but as for the heros there are a few staples against spell casters.

Dispel Magic - What Buffs?
Antimagic field - What spells?
Attacks of Opportunity against the spell caster - if you cannot concentrate then you lose the spell.
Silence - What do you need to say to cast the spell? Sorry can't hear you.
Grappled - You cannot move your arms to do the gestures or grab the component needed.

Just so you know, none of the above methods should work against this guy if he's played at even the median of his capabilities. Also, I'd advise against having the heroic mentor be so "zomg intelligent" to make the BBEG look the fool. That undermines any threat he might pose, and makes him a joke villain rather than a legitimate threat.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-17, 05:32 PM
Well, I agree that this bad guy needs work but as for the heros there are a few staples against spell casters.

Dispel Magic - What Buffs?
Antimagic field - What spells?
Attacks of Opportunity against the spell caster - if you cannot concentrate then you lose the spell.
Silence - What do you need to say to cast the spell? Sorry can't hear you.
Grappled - You cannot move your arms to do the gestures or grab the component needed.

Then of course there's
Contingencies - freedom of movement when grappled woooo! Or worse, teleport somewhere if attacked! Or something!

Defensive Casting - What attacks of opportunity? It's not exactly hard to beat that DC.

Eschew, Silent, Still (or perhaps even OCULAR) spells - what silence/grapple/whatever?

Dispel Magic goes both ways, by the way. You can counter it, reflect it, or simply negate it with a plethora of spells and magical items.

And considering the capabilities level 9 and lower spells have - offensive, defensive and summoning - I'd say this fight wouldn't be heroes against the archivist alone. It'll be more like heroes against archivist with some pit fiends and solars and whatever. Because that's what you'd do if you are a paranoid freak who has literally all the divination spells (and all the spells in general, up to and not including epic ones and all the time (and knowledge) in the world to scry and scheme and prepare.

TL;DR- A genius villain who pretty much knows everything isn't going to by Xykon. Who, I'm pretty sure, is a sorcerer... If you claim to be a super genius, you better act like one. Having a super genius villain be outsmarted by a group of elementary school kids is only good for laughs or saturday morning cartoons, otherwise it's just lame.

No brains
2011-02-17, 05:42 PM
Just so you know, none of the above methods should work against this guy if he's played at even the median of his capabilities. Also, I'd advise against having the heroic mentor be so "zomg intelligent" to make the BBEG look the fool. That undermines any threat he might pose, and makes him a joke villain rather than a legitimate threat.

Not if my zomg intelligent mentor is a drunken, no-show roach-man who only one hero on-again/off-again likes anyway. :)

I wanted to ask: disjunction can break an antimagic field, but can you cast disjunction within it?

Now if one more person goes on about how 'the setup is soooo improbable' without contributing clever trumps on casters, I am going to cry.:smallmad: I'm going to cry that you won't be my friend in front of everybody. :smallamused:
I forget what Elan said...

Fioyl
2011-02-17, 06:14 PM
Make him like Mao from Disgaea 3, who is apparently quite intelligent and does things "in the name of Science!" but is very capricious and unreliable.

Analytica
2011-02-17, 07:00 PM
Perhaps this person is obsessed with being prepared for all eventualities, but have difficulties ruling out some eventualities as being unrealistic. Given this, they would never begin a day without preparing spells that would be good if they ended up encased in lava, or under the sea, or in a situation where they were transformed into a form without mouth or hands, etc. This could eat up a good bit of their spells/day.

Another option... if this person has some systematic way to prepare defenses depending on what their auguries said... is there a way to falsify divinations? Projecting false futures that their spells encounter? Get the Contact Other Plane target creatures to lie for you, or replace them? If you can do that, you can severely weaken such a spellcaster as you encounter them.

I don't mind the idea of a lazy, hedonistic super-genius, though I do wonder what a person who only wants to sit in their lair and seek pleasure and learning can do to end up the target of adventurers.

No brains
2011-02-17, 07:19 PM
Perhaps this person is obsessed with being prepared for all eventualities, but have difficulties ruling out some eventualities as being unrealistic. Given this, they would never begin a day without preparing spells that would be good if they ended up encased in lava, or under the sea, or in a situation where they were transformed into a form without mouth or hands, etc. This could eat up a good bit of their spells/day.

Another option... if this person has some systematic way to prepare defenses depending on what their auguries said... is there a way to falsify divinations? Projecting false futures that their spells encounter? Get the Contact Other Plane target creatures to lie for you, or replace them? If you can do that, you can severely weaken such a spellcaster as you encounter them.

Based on what you said, could it be possible to: 1) Set up a web of semi-likely attacks. 2) Monitor the enemy's divinations to see what they will learn what is the most likely one. 3) Launch a spite attack from the option ruled least likely?

This also reminds me of questions regarding my favorite spells: Can you use divinations to see inside an anti-magic zone? Also, if you use true seeing and there is an illusory wall with written information on it, do you see no wall and get no information? Do you see the wall but realize it is an illusion hiding something?

MammonAzrael
2011-02-17, 07:44 PM
I've read the OP and scanned the other posts, and the biggest issue I have...he is super lazy be is powerful because of extensive research?

Wut?

Being lazy and maintaining his hedonistic lifestyle without any more lofty goals makes far more sense for a gestalt sorcerer/favored soul.

In terms of accomplishments, this guys sounds a lot more like Karsus. What are he ultimate goals, his endgame? Does he want to gain immortality? Does he prefer pleasures of the flesh, the mind, or what? Why isn't he researching new spells, or working towards epic magic?

I just don't get this guy's motivations at all, and that, for me, destroys a villain. On that note...what exactly makes him a villain? Is he an undisputed emperor? Is he oppressive? Cruel? Does he lust for complete power over others (which doesn't fit with just wanting to maintain his luxurious lifestyle)?

Why is he a villain in the first place that the players need to defeat?

Analytica
2011-02-17, 09:45 PM
Based on what you said, could it be possible to: 1) Set up a web of semi-likely attacks. 2) Monitor the enemy's divinations to see what they will learn what is the most likely one. 3) Launch a spite attack from the option ruled least likely?

Either would be an option, I think.

Another interesting route... what if two powerful diviners predict futures which intersect? That is, they both see futures that depend on each others actions. One sees the other acting, and changes plans accordingly. This makes the other change their plans, invalidating the first prediction, and so on. The Dune books make some use of this in that a seer becomes invisible to other seers because any other resolution would mean a time paradox.

I am not saying every D&D divination has results like this, but if the BBEG is a Schrödinger's wizard (choosing spells through abuse of Contact Other Plane, asking which particular spell selection would be most optimal and receiving the answer as an index number from the set of all possible spell preparation combinations), this ability might be negatable by just involving another wizard doing the same thing.

I would probably rule this as making the spell preparation of each becoming effectively random, even though both would still believe they had prepared the best spells they could. This could seriously weaken the power of the BBEG and would give the DM a funny battle with a hundred spells chosen randomly from all splatbooks... :smallbiggrin:

Aharon
2011-02-18, 06:48 AM
I can see the "has become lazy" work for an NPC who provides the party with quests.

For an antagonist? Not so much. Buffalo Wings & Hookers, indeed :smallsmile:

=> If your only goal in life is luxury, you can have that very reliably by 13th level at the latest: Mage's Magnificent Mansion in conjunction with Heroe's feast + planar bound servants make for a pretty enjoyable life. Even practical immortality is rather easy to achieve if you don't mind isolation:
A rod of security multiplies your lifespan by 2880000.

To answer your original question, there is an item that grants extra turning attempts: The Nightstick from Libris Mortis. It's still debated wether attempts from multiple Nightsticks stack, IIRC.

I'm AFB, so I don't know if Archivists get domains. If they do, there's also Domain Draught - it grants you a domain for a day, and I think the Undeath Domain gives extra turning attempts.

I think the character would work far better if he were still lower level and had not completed his collection. With just this small change, he now has a goal: complete spell selection. Now his laziness actually means something - it might drive him to do immoral things because they are easier: Blackmail people instead of regularly buying their spellbooks, assassinate low-level guys who happen to have a rare 1st level spell, and so on.

@Analysis
I think the consensus is that to give the player of a wizard who really focused on that kind of thing the amount of information high level divinations convey, you hand him the statistics of the encounterd monsters and let him decide on spells after seeing those. In the case of 2 such wizards divining futures, it depends on who casts CoP first. They can't, by game mechanics alone, act at exactly the same time, so one of them comes first. The one who goes first is the one who gets to see the character sheet of the second one first, prepares spells accordingly, and the other guy can then change his spells if he wishes to based on the information he gets.
=> This approach is only neccessary if both use a lot of CoP.

Analytica
2011-02-18, 09:46 AM
@Analysis
I think the consensus is that to give the player of a wizard who really focused on that kind of thing the amount of information high level divinations convey, you hand him the statistics of the encounterd monsters and let him decide on spells after seeing those. In the case of 2 such wizards divining futures, it depends on who casts CoP first. They can't, by game mechanics alone, act at exactly the same time, so one of them comes first. The one who goes first is the one who gets to see the character sheet of the second one first, prepares spells accordingly, and the other guy can then change his spells if he wishes to based on the information he gets.
=> This approach is only neccessary if both use a lot of CoP.

That makes sense, at least if what the other-plane creature relates is actually information on the most probable future from information currently available. If what it sees and relates is the actual future, then things happening after the spell is cast changes what the spell was relating information about, hence the outcome of the previously cast spell, and then I think the result should be a time loop like the one I described.

Toliudar
2011-02-18, 12:46 PM
The lazy/hedonistic super-powerful antagonist could work just fine in a number of contexts:


The PC's or a mcguffin is the focus of some aspect of his hedonism. "I've heard that half-brass-dragon livers are simply divine if smoked and slow-roasted. Mind if I take yours?"
If he's been a super-genius that's acquired tremendous power and simply lost interest in using it, someone else is filling that void. Perhaps someone else with a more aggressive take on the world.
If the PC's have been hired to do some errands that BBEG can't be bothered to do, we have the archetype of the boss who turns out to be a royal prick, someone the PC's eventually stand up to and say "enough".

Force
2011-02-18, 01:00 PM
He could always be played like some of the older dragons-- not necessarily a human being, but someone who is extraordinarily long-lived. He has seen civilization rise, fall, and rise again so many times over the past thousands of years that he cares for little. To him, urgency and current politics aren't important-- given a hundred years, the problem dies away or is forgotten. To this hypothetical wizard, the only lasting thing worth anything is knowledge, especially that of arcane or divine spells.

He plays the good guys, the bad guys, the neutral guys all the time like puppets on strings in order to get access to information or to preserve something he finds fleetingly precious. Maybe he's working with the BBEG because the current crisis (yawn) has given him access to some neat new spells and knowledge that the BBEG has acquired from somewhere. Perhaps the BBEG has the ear of an outsider that has information that the wizard wants and the BBEG is using to get the wizard's cooperation. The objective of the campaign, thus, is not to take down the wizard necessarily but rather to cut off the flow of information that is being used to get the wizard to cooperate, or to provide some tidbit that will distract the wizard long enough to end the threat of the BBEG.

Jayabalard
2011-02-18, 01:36 PM
Someone who knows every spell from excruciating personal research doesn't really have time to be lazy. +1 to this. He's contradictory from the beginning the way you've laid him out. The kind of person who would actually go through the effort of meticulously researching every possible spell just cannot believably make a major personality change like that.

If you want the "knows all spells" along with "lazy" then I suggest that you tweak the former. How about a Faustian bargain of some sort? So, he's always been lazy, but managed to coast by on sheer talent. At some point though, he gets passed over by people who have less talent but work harder; maybe he gets kicked to the curb by the group he's a part of. So due to lazyness: he makes a deal with some eldritch horror to gain, among other things, knowledge of all spells. At that point, he's got ultimate cosmic power, and decent sized living space, so enjoys living the good life.


His lazyness is a believable part of his character, as is the possibility of him having holes in his defenses.
You have the potential to work in some sort of redemption story line; if that's definitely not what you want, you need to do some tweakage to show why he's past/not interested in redemption
You've got some interesting story things that can go along with him paying the price of his bargain.
He's got a revenge motive against people who snubbed him for his lazyness before, and against anyone who was promoted over him.


Another possibility: Daddy was the meticulous researcher, he the lazy prodigal son.