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TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 09:03 PM
...are there any actual in-text or obscure references to guitars in 3.5?

Nerocite
2011-02-15, 09:05 PM
Just use an Axe.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 09:16 PM
There is a lute on page 126 of Complete Adventurer (with a picture on page 125). It is described as being an ancestor of the guitar.

TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 09:19 PM
There is a lute on page 126 of Complete Adventurer (with a picture on page 125). It is described as being an ancestor of the guitar.

I know that. But its the guitar which I'm interested in.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 09:24 PM
You asked for an in-text reference, which I provided.

It seems that the default setting for D&D uses more early-medieval musical technology.

LOTRfan
2011-02-15, 09:26 PM
It was mentioned in another thread that guitars exist in 3.5. May I have a second to look through 'em?

EDIT: There's a masterwork guitar in either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel. It was mentioned in the Hippie Bard thread.

Barbin
2011-02-15, 09:30 PM
Use Summon Instrument. I invented the Bass Guitar that way.:smallcool:

TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 09:38 PM
EDIT: There's a masterwork guitar in either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel. It was mentioned in the Hippie Bard thread.

Can anyone point me to a book and a page?

LOTRfan
2011-02-15, 09:41 PM
No, that was the last time it was mentioned in the Hippie Bard thread. I don't have the books with me. If you have them, I'd suggest the equipment section in each.

Xuc Xac
2011-02-15, 09:42 PM
I don't really understand this question. There's a Perform skill to play music. Which instruments are available will depend on the setting. Ask your GM if guitars are available in your campaign world. They might be published in a book for one setting but not available in another. "D&D" isn't one big world: it's just a set of rules for running games in many different worlds.

Instruments are normal or masterwork. They're not like weapons with all the insane little details. You don't need Exotic Instrument Proficiency to use a custom 7-string guitar to get an increased octave range or to use alternate tunings for a speed advantage when you use flurry of blows play "Flight of the Bumblebee".

Creed
2011-02-15, 09:44 PM
My pesos are on Complete Adventurer. I don't own it, but I did just check my Complete Scoundrel and didn't see it in there. So Complete Adventurer is a good bet.
Also, you might want to drop down a category to homebrew land and request one if you can't find it.
-Creed

turkishproverb
2011-02-15, 09:46 PM
Someone is going to make music with rocks in it, aren't they?

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 09:48 PM
EDIT: There's a masterwork guitar in either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel. It was mentioned in the Hippie Bard thread.

Can anyone point me to a book and a page?

It doesn't exist in either of those books. Lute is the closest alternative. There's also a mandolin.

Song & Silence has the banjolele--essentially a cross between a banjo and a ukulele--but it's a 3.0 book.

I also checked Arms & Equipment Guide. No guitars anywhere that I've looked.

Claudius Maximus
2011-02-15, 09:49 PM
No luck in Song and Silence.

TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 09:50 PM
Instruments are normal or masterwork. They're not like weapons with all the insane little details. You don't need Exotic Instrument Proficiency to use a custom 7-string guitar to get an increased octave range or to use alternate tunings for a speed advantage when you use flurry of blows play "Flight of the Bumblebee".

That's not the point, its the principle of the thing. Besides, most of the DM's I run up against don't let me have a guitar by the logic that it doesn't exist in the time/D&D, thus if I can find its physical existence in the book, I can justify my reasoning for owning a guitar.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-15, 09:52 PM
Okay, I just google'd and found one on dandwiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Guitar_%283.5e_Equipment%29). It's homebrew.



EDIT:

That's not the point, its the principle of the thing. Besides, most of the DM's I run up against don't let me have a guitar by the logic that it doesn't exist in the time/D&D, thus if I can find its physical existence in the book, I can justify my reasoning for owning a guitar.

I don't understand this. Why does it have to be a guitar? The lute was basically the guitar of its day. It's basically the same thing with a more basic shape that's easier to make.

TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 10:01 PM
Okay, I just google'd and found one on dandwiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Guitar_%283.5e_Equipment%29). It's homebrew.



EDIT:


I don't understand this. Why does it have to be a guitar? The lute was basically the guitar of its day. It's basically the same thing with a more basic shape that's easier to make.

Because Guitars look cooler, sound cooler, and are generally more badass than a lute could ever hope to be. I don't care if it doesn't matter to the plain rules of how the class works; it matter to me, thus I will strive for a guitar.

Xuc Xac
2011-02-15, 10:04 PM
That's not the point, its the principle of the thing. Besides, most of the DM's I run up against don't let me have a guitar by the logic that it doesn't exist in the time/D&D, thus if I can find its physical existence in the book, I can justify my reasoning for owning a guitar.

That wouldn't fly with me. Just because it's in a book somewhere, that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it exists in the campaign world. There are rules for kender and gully dwarves and awakened half-dragon, half-celestial, dire badgers, but you still can't play one.

If it fits the setting, then you can have a guitar. If it doesn't fit the setting, you can't. It doesn't matter if it's in a book or not. If there were no guitars in the world but you could give me a reason why another stringed instrument is insufficient, then I'd let you take Craft: Luthier and invent the guitar as a custom large bodied lute.

TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 10:07 PM
That wouldn't fly with me. Just because it's in a book somewhere, that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it exists in the campaign world. There are rules for kender and gully dwarves and awakened half-dragon, half-celestial, dire badgers, but you still can't play one.

If it fits the setting, then you can have a guitar. If it doesn't fit the setting, you can't. It doesn't matter if it's in a book or not. If there were no guitars in the world but you could give me a reason why another stringed instrument is insufficient, then I'd let you take Craft: Luthier and invent the guitar as a custom large bodied lute.

Alright, I see what you're saying, and I accept that... but then again, you're not my GMs. For my GMs specifically, the guitar would fly with physical evidence.

Percival
2011-02-15, 10:25 PM
Just use an Axe.

I loled. :smallbiggrin:

sonofzeal
2011-02-15, 10:27 PM
http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/hiji-axe.gif

Slipperychicken
2011-02-15, 10:30 PM
Just pick up a lute's stats and call it a guitar. The mechanical difference between the two (if any) would be negligible at worst. Music written for lute is played without much fuss on guitars. Personally, I'd say a guitar would fly for most settings unless the Wall-O-Plot specifically says "No guitars ever existed or ever will. they are the instrument of the Elder Evils and have been thusly banished from existence for ever".


It all depends on what you're imagining here. Just politely inform your DM(s) that your guitar would be made out of wood and nearly indistinguishable from other instruments of the time period (lute, banjo, ukalele, Viol family, etc.). Show them Bach's Lute sonatas being played on an acoustic and they'll probably warm up to the concept.


Your DMs are most likely just confused: they probably think you want to have a green mohawk, a black leather jacket covered with buckles, and a Flying V with flame decals. So let them know that you'll be a musician just like all the others of the setting, that your instrument won't be awkwardly shoehorned in, and that you'll refrain from smashing verisimilitude with Spinyl Tap references. They just want to keep their precious campaign settings believable, and that often means untainted by modern pop-culture references.

subject42
2011-02-15, 10:51 PM
Personally, I'd say a guitar would fly for most settings unless the Wall-O-Plot specifically says "No guitars ever existed or ever will. they are the instrument of the Elder Evils and have been thusly banished from existence for ever".

As a bassist, I wholly endorse this campaign setting.

mootoall
2011-02-15, 10:57 PM
You could always have your character "invent" the guitar in-campaign. I think that'd be pretty awesome for a bard. Don't you want to be world famous as the guy who invented the guitar?

TechnOkami
2011-02-15, 11:15 PM
As a bassist, I wholly endorse this campaign setting.

Seconded.


You could always have your character "invent" the guitar in-campaign. I think that'd be pretty awesome for a bard. Don't you want to be world famous as the guy who invented the guitar?

I could... but to be honest, I have no idea where to begin.

sonofzeal
2011-02-16, 12:47 AM
I could... but to be honest, I have no idea where to begin.
Start with the basic idea of a lute, but shape it like a woman's body. That's pretty much the concept.

Fhaolan
2011-02-16, 02:56 AM
Alright, I see what you're saying, and I accept that... but then again, you're not my GMs. For my GMs specifically, the guitar would fly with physical evidence.

Do you need evidence within game or historical evidence within a specific time period? In game, guitars are last mentioned in the 2nd edition Complete Bard's Handbook, which is probably not viable for a 3.5 game.

Historically, the terms lute and guitar both applied to a wide range of instruments with quite a lot of overlap between them. Like weapon terminology, instrument termology shifts around a lot depending on exactly which source you're looking at. Remeber that back then, all instruments were what we now would call 'custom made'. Meaning if you wanted a flat-bodied, long-necked, fretted, six single-string (or double-string in the case of a twelve-string guitar) course instrument with a large ribbed soundbox, you would ask the luthier (term for a string instrument maker) to make exactly that. Given that instruments with all of these attributes existed since about the 12th century if not earlier (Tamburs, Sitars, Citoles, Lutes, Violas, etc.) it's not like it was technologically impossible to build a modern-style acoustical guitar. It just didn't become a common/popular style of instrument until relatively late (16th century).

LikeAD6
2011-02-16, 03:03 AM
Forgotten Realms has the yarting, which is the setting's equivalent to a guitar.

Dr.Epic
2011-02-16, 03:11 AM
Just use an Axe.

http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/hiji-axe.gif

Rixx
2011-02-16, 03:59 AM
I know there are stats for wands of scorching ray but I want a laser gun because it's cooler.

Xuc Xac
2011-02-16, 05:47 AM
I know there are stats for wands of scorching ray but I want a laser gun because it's cooler.

Not even that. It's more like "I know 'cloak' is on the equipment list, but can you give me a page number that says they're available in blue?"

AugustNights
2011-02-16, 07:05 AM
If you need a RAW deal to get it in with your DM check out the "Reflavoring bit" on the PHB and take the Lute-called a guitar option.

Considering they are harder to make and a little more complicated go the Katana way, and make a Masterwork Lute. Bam. Guitar.

Coidzor
2011-02-16, 07:28 AM
Before the development of the electric guitar and the use of synthetic materials, a guitar was defined as being an instrument having "a long, fretted neck, flat wooden soundboard, ribs, and a flat back, most often with incurved sides". The term is used to refer to a number of related instruments that were developed and used across Europe beginning in the 12th century and, later, in the Americas [...]Two medieval instruments that were called "guitars" were in use by 1200: the guitarra moresca (Moorish guitar) and the guitarra latina (Latin guitar). The guitarra moresca had a rounded back, wide fingerboard, and several soundholes. The guitarra latina had a single soundhole and a narrower neck. By the 14th century the qualifiers "moresca" and "latina" had been dropped and these two cordophones were usually simply referred to as guitars.

A cursory glance of Wikipedia seems to support the idea that A. guitars already exist or B. they can easily be made as a variation/synthesis of the various precursor/relative instruments already extant.


I know there are stats for wands of scorching ray but I want a laser gun because it's cooler.

<_< And would allow for iteratives... maybe... >_>

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-16, 09:40 AM
Custom magic item is what you want. Take one Lute, add a few per day or possibly unlimited uses of Sculpt Sound spell. Voila, you have a guitar with built in amplifier. Add Dancing Lights if you'd like to be able to give yourself a spotlight. :smallcool:

Cyrion
2011-02-16, 10:32 AM
Historically, guitars as we know them didn't arrive until late in the 17th century, though their roots go back 4000 years or so. Lutes are actually from a different line of development; they have common ancestors, but the guitar is not a descendant of the lute. Here's (http://www.guyguitars.com/eng/handbook/BriefHistory.html)a brief history of the development of the guitar.

sonofzeal
2011-02-16, 10:36 AM
http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/hiji-axe.gif
You're seven posts too late. :smallwink:

Oh, and it's common courtesy to put wider images in spoiler tags.

The Big Dice
2011-02-16, 12:45 PM
Historically, guitars as we know them didn't arrive until late in the 17th century, though their roots go back 4000 years or so. Lutes are actually from a different line of development; they have common ancestors, but the guitar is not a descendant of the lute. Here's (http://www.guyguitars.com/eng/handbook/BriefHistory.html)a brief history of the development of the guitar.

Nice article. Admittedly, electric guitars are more where my interests lie, and it was interesting to see that it didn't mention things like Les Paul's "log," or Adolph Rickenbacker's "frying pan."

As for guitars in D&D, I'd say a lute is more practical. It's smaller for one thing, which means much less trouble lugging it around. Which is important for an adventurer. And it's the classic serenading instrument, too.

And if it's good enough to inspire Ritchie Blackmore, it's good enough for a Bard if you ask me.

And as for the bass guitar, Leo Fender invented those, starting with the Precision. After he'd made the Broadcaster :smallyuk:

TechnOkami
2011-02-16, 12:57 PM
Oh, and it's common courtesy to put wider images in spoiler tags.

Just curious: why is that?

subject42
2011-02-16, 01:37 PM
And as for the bass guitar, Leo Fender invented those, starting with the Precision. After he'd made the Broadcaster :smallyuk:

Actually, the Tutmarc 736 beat out the Precision by about 15 years. It still doesn't get us back into the middle ages, though.

sonofzeal
2011-02-16, 01:45 PM
Just curious: why is that?
Wider images can "stretch" the screen and change how the forum gets displayed. The forum resizes itself to accommodate, but this means text might start going off the screen all over the place. It's especially an issue for people with smaller screens, like some notebooks and most cellphones, as well as some really old monitors. I'm on a 1024x768, which is standard these days, and that image stretches the screen for me slightly. Those still on an 800x600 for whatever reason would have even worse problems.

TechnOkami
2011-02-16, 06:31 PM
Oh, I didn't know the forums resized the photos automatically. But I've had the same issue where the picture would go out to the right of the screen and I would have to scroll over to see it all.

Coidzor
2011-02-16, 08:05 PM
As for guitars in D&D, I'd say a lute is more practical. It's smaller for one thing, which means much less trouble lugging it around. Which is important for an adventurer. And it's the classic serenading instrument, too.

:smallsigh: Like it really matters in a fight. If you've got your hands full playing the instrument, you've got your hands full playing the instrument and it doesn't really matter.

And where else is the slight difference in size really going to come up? Other than maybe cutting down a bit on bag of holding space.

Zeofar
2011-02-16, 08:18 PM
Oh, I didn't know the forums resized the photos automatically. But I've had the same issue where the picture would go out to the right of the screen and I would have to scroll over to see it all.

It doesn't re-size the photos, it re-sizes itself. Hence the stretching.

Golden-Esque
2011-02-16, 09:23 PM
Because Guitars look cooler, sound cooler, and are generally more badass than a lute could ever hope to be. I don't care if it doesn't matter to the plain rules of how the class works; it matter to me, thus I will strive for a guitar.

I don't want to sound like an ass, so I'm sorry if I do, but why on earth does this thread exist? It's a musical instrument. There are absolutely no mechanical rules whatsoever for playing a musical instrument. You want a guitar? Fine, have guitars exist in your setting. Say they're powered by lightning elementals or something. The only possible rule you'd use is the Masterwork rule, and that can be applied to any instrument anyway.

Guitars would be classified under Perform (String Instrument). Problem solved.

sonofzeal
2011-02-16, 09:52 PM
I don't want to sound like an ass, so I'm sorry if I do, but why on earth does this thread exist? It's a musical instrument. There are absolutely no mechanical rules whatsoever for playing a musical instrument. You want a guitar? Fine, have guitars exist in your setting. Say they're powered by lightning elementals or something. The only possible rule you'd use is the Masterwork rule, and that can be applied to any instrument anyway.

Guitars would be classified under Perform (String Instrument). Problem solved.
Complete Adventurer would like a word with you. :smalltongue:

The Big Dice
2011-02-17, 10:13 AM
:smallsigh: Like it really matters in a fight. If you've got your hands full playing the instrument, you've got your hands full playing the instrument and it doesn't really matter.

And where else is the slight difference in size really going to come up? Other than maybe cutting down a bit on bag of holding space.
Have you ever lugged a guitar round all day, say at school?

If the Gm has, then you're in for a world of bum[ing it into door frames and, when dungeon crawling, having to figure out how to get it through that narrow space.

Guitars, especially acoustic ones, are suprisingly bulky and unweildy when not in use. And the break fairly easily, too.

Fhaolan
2011-02-17, 11:00 AM
Have you ever lugged a guitar round all day, say at school?

If the Gm has, then you're in for a world of bum[ing it into door frames and, when dungeon crawling, having to figure out how to get it through that narrow space.

Guitars, especially acoustic ones, are suprisingly bulky and unweildy when not in use. And the break fairly easily, too.

Which is why I play bards with more portable instruments. Like a double bass, or concert harp. :smallbiggrin:

sonofzeal
2011-02-17, 06:17 PM
Which is why I play bards with more portable instruments. Like a double bass, or concert harp. :smallbiggrin:
Or a cello in a marching band (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57FUphSl2vA&feature=related).

Coidzor
2011-02-17, 06:56 PM
Have you ever lugged a guitar round all day, say at school?

If the Gm has, then you're in for a world of bum[ing it into door frames and, when dungeon crawling, having to figure out how to get it through that narrow space.

Have you ever lugged a full pack of bedding, camping equipment, food, rope, tools, and implements of war along with the arms, armor, and personal effects of those you've killed recently around while fully armed and armored?

The DM singling out the person with the guitar for that, especially based upon the DM's own personal bad experiences just seems petty.

The Big Dice
2011-02-17, 08:21 PM
Have you ever lugged a full pack of bedding, camping equipment, food, rope, tools, and implements of war along with the arms, armor, and personal effects of those you've killed recently around while fully armed and armored?

The DM singling out the person with the guitar for that, especially based upon the DM's own personal bad experiences just seems petty.

I haven't lugged the camping gear around with weapons and armour. but I have dragged a backpack loaded with tent, cooking gear and food, plus a guitar around. And didn't enjoy the experience in the slightest.

One of the questions I often ask my players is, how are you carrying all that. I don't bother with encumbrance rules too much, but I might hand you a mop, a hammer, a backpack full of books and a lid off a bin (garbage can) then ask you how you're carrying all that, plus a sack of gold that weighs more than your dog.

So there's not really any singling out of anyone. Just a bit of reality checking now and then.